Night Vision Long Distance Thermal Clipons ?

wigwamitus

Strictly Offensive Kit
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 5, 2014
3,403
3,117
LBJ
Prior to SHOT 2019, I posted in several threads that we were hoping for three possible announcements ... regarding long distance thermal clipons:

01 - Trijicon would have something to say about future prospects of them restarting manufacturing of UTC-x or UTC-xii. We heard nothing along those lines
... and availability of even the SKEET is unknown for commercial customers. Which is worse than we hoped for.

02 - LWTS-LR announcement including commercial availability. As of right now, it seems like 1-2 years while government contracts get filled is as good a guess as any.

03 - N-Vision Optics. We hoped that after a year of pushing their new Atlas (with BAE core) hand held spotter offerings ... they might announce new scopes and/or long distance thermal clipons.
They've had two long distance thermal clipons in the past ... their TC-50 and TC-50a (not to be confused with the PRG TC-50 :D ) ... and they did announce dedicated scopes.
But, posts from Max_R indicate no plan to use the BAE core for a thermal clipon in the future.

So short version is three strikes and we're out. No new long distance thermal clipon on the horizon. So what to do ? If a person really wants one
... then hunting down a used one ... or a new one gathering dust on some dealers shelf is an option. Or trying the PRG hoping it works.

But definitely not where I hoped we would be at this point :(

==
Oh and what is a "long distance thermal clipon" ?
One that can support at least 8x magnification on the day scope by design (i.e. at least 2x front magnification, offset by 0.5x demagnification on the rear).
And ideally one that also has collimated Risley Prisms (CRP) on the rear to allow the unit to be moved from rifle to rifle with no POI shift,
provided day and night optic are mounted within the tolerance of the CRP
on board the night optic.

Most of the thermal clipons available commercially (and even the available military ones we can buy) are designed to support 4x on the day scope. They do not use the magnify/demagnify trick.
Yes, some of them have great images and you can squeeze the day scope magnification up to 5x or even 6x .. but by design they are 4x support. The 320s are even less ... 2x for sure, squeeze to 3x.

A long distance thermal clipon can help you get yotes out to 500yds ... and hit 12 inch heated steel out to 900yds, if you are so inclined. Not every one needs them, but some do.
Especially those going after yotes in more open terrain like found on the West side of the Mississippi.

Oh and what is the "inventory" of possible used ones to go after ?

FLIR T-75
N-Vision Optics TC-50, TC-50A
BAE UTC, UTC-x

All of these are designed to support 8x or higher on the day scope by using the magnify/demagnify trick.
There are a tiny few others out there, including some made by entities outside the USA. But even less is known about those than the above units.

Back in Nov 2016, I decided to go after one. I was inspired by a thread in which IRV posted and discussed the advantages of long distance thermal clipons.
Several hide members aided in the search including surgeon_shooter and i2_technologies

I pursued all three, the UTC-x, the T-75 and the TC-50. I came close to all three. At the last minute, FLIR changed their mind and decided they didn't want to sell to civilians.
Before my search and after, they did sell to civilians but I caught them at a bad moment. Some deal involving shady export to Japan was mentioned.
But I couldn't get a FLIR at that time. The UTC-x seemed to be unobtainium. I found two TC-50 towards the end of my search, and was about to pull the trigger when I found TWO dealers that had UTC-x gathering
dust on the shelf ... and one of those worked with me to get BAE approval to sell to me, so I wound up going that way.
But back in May 2017, the BAE OASYS program was still not shut down yet. By around Aug/Sept 2017 the OASYS program was shut down. So, the process I went thru is not repeatable in terms of approvals.
Now, you would be looking for a used UTC-x (or T-75 or TC-50) that seems non-shady and works. And extreme diligence is required as these units are still going for over $10k and the UTC-x
for twice that. So definitely a niche within a niche sort of activity.
I was hoping the market would shift and something in this space would be more commercially available. But it did not happen.
So, we are still waiting to see if the PRG TC-50 will meet requirements of working in the field. Other than that, nothing on the horizon for the next year.
 
7100677
 
So glad you posted this wig. I've been on a very similar journey to you and I'm starting to get the annual "itch" to add to my collection. I have wanted to grab a UTC-X, but with the unobtanium status, the risk of getting an unwanted knock on the door, and now the fact they probably won't be warrantied/supported, it just doesn't seem like a good choice.

I personally have a FLIR T-70, so going to a T-75 for long range doesn't really excite me much (I lust for BAE cores). Also, I did run into an issue where I had to send my T-70 back (luckily FLIR fixed me up), which reinforces the concerns of picking up unsupportable used units. Even though these are military grade, doesn't mean they can't have problems... It looks like they discontinued the T-70 and only offer the T-75 now. And to your point, looks like they don't offer the T-75 to civvies anymore... :(

<sigh>

First world problems.
 
Well, after they wouldn't sell me a T-75 ... they then had a program going for at least a year, where they were selling "new" T-75s for $11,900 to all comers. Yes FLIR was selling them directly. But those seem to all be gone now. There are probably a few dealers that still have one each, on the shelf.
 
Here is the thread with the posts that inspired me to go down the road that got me a long distance thermal clipon ...

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/clip-on-thermal-question.216263/


And here are the most inspiring words of all the words ... by the mysterious "IR-V" who dives in to a thread about once every 2 years ... though not lately ...

...
I recommend that you strike off your list any thermal imager that:

-- isn't a clip-on
-- has resolution on the thermal core less than 640x480
-- has objective lens less than 60 mm diameter.

Back in Nov 2016 when I re-read those words (I had copied the contents of that thread to my local before we moved to Scout) I realized there were virtually none such critters. But here was a guy saying ONLY look at big clipons.

==
It was about 2 years later ... when experimenting with raytheon 3x on front and usgi 3x reversed on rear of patrol (thanks Pete!) that helped me finally figure out how these long distance thermal clipons actually work their magic.

48125774896_c3806e8f80_b.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frog05
The problem with thermal clip on’s is that you’re zooming into an actual display. You would need a really high resolution display to support higher magnifications. The display industry is on course to develop such displays but we’re not quite there yet.
 
working for the Government as a DoD Contractor for the USMC I was the Lead Optics QC. the usmc had clips made by L3 "Pas-27's" Marines ran these in front of their RCO's and also the Mark 4 2.5-8x scopes worked well too at 2.5X. anything over 4x was washed out. L3 recently came out with a LWTS, it's a clip on as well as a stand alone unit. it has a crosshair that can be turned off or on. like the Pas-27, when using it as a clip on, it's no good after 4x. for 16k ish... you'd think it would be better.
 
... he problem with thermal clip on’s is that you’re zooming into an actual display ...

Aye, though we see several manufacturers releasing units with 1024x768 this year!

A "work around" which could be used regardless, which all LDTC use AFAIK, is demagnify on rear end (to reduce size of TV screen, and essentially simulate a higher res display) and then remagnify by exact offsetting amount on the front end to preserve 1x and permit use of day scope reticle. So, this "work around" continues to be available ... though I'm sure it adds considerably to the price!!

And in the mean time, we plan to continue to use the "crappy" LDTC which exist in this space currently, as that's all we have available !! :D
 
working for the Government as a DoD Contractor for the USMC I was the Lead Optics QC. the usmc had clips made by L3 "Pas-27's" Marines ran these in front of their RCO's and also the Mark 4 2.5-8x scopes worked well too at 2.5X. anything over 4x was washed out. L3 recently came out with a LWTS, it's a clip on as well as a stand alone unit. it has a crosshair that can be turned off or on. like the Pas-27, when using it as a clip on, it's no good after 4x. for 16k ish... you'd think it would be better.
You can find LWTS for 8. I've heard some sold for 6. Used of course.

I wouldn't really call the LWTS a recent development. The LWTS-LR is a new development.
 
The LWTS-LR seems to be an LWTS with a 2x optical lens on the front and a 0.5x software demagnification on the rear. This is probably the easiest way to convert a short distance thermal clipon (SDTC) into a LDTC. But is that 0.5x on the rear calibrated accurately enough to preserve 1x thru the device and make 1 MOA = 5.25 at 500yds ... actually be 5.25 inches. No independent test results available yet,. Hecque not even any "dependent" test results available yet :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Squibbler
The LWTS-LR seems to be an LWTS with a 2x optical lens on the front and a 0.5x software demagnification on the rear. This is probably the easiest way to convert a short distance thermal clipon (SDTC) into a LDTC. But is that 0.5x on the rear calibrated accurately enough to preserve 1x thru the device and make 1 MOA = 5.25 at 500yds ... actually be 5.25 inches. No independent test results available yet,. Hecque not even any "dependent" test results available yet :D


Ha, just sunk in what u told me before. Before I just smiled and nodded my head in agreement as the info continued to slightly travel above my forehead, lol. Comprendo! ?
 
You can find LWTS for 8. I've heard some sold for 6. Used of course.

I wouldn't really call the LWTS a recent development. The LWTS-LR is a new development.


well of course used, I was speaking on new "government price" and the LWTS (G) is the USMC's most current configuration. they don't use Clip-ons for LR so I guess it's not feasible for them to invest in a LR config.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deersniper
well of course used, I was speaking on new "government price" and the LWTS (G) is the USMC's most current configuration. they don't use Clip-ons for LR so I guess it's not feasible for them to invest in a LR config.
What do you mean by they don't use clip ins for long range? Isn't that what the PVS30, UTC-x, and that new cooled clip on are used for ?
 
What do you mean by they don't use clip ins for long range? Isn't that what the PVS30, UTC-x, and that new cooled clip on are used for ?

No sir, the Pvs-30 is night vision for one and the marines aren’t using the other two. At least not currently when it comes to long range they’re using the MRTB(PAS-28) and the MTWS/HTWS Pas-13’s
 
I need this

View attachment 7110414View attachment 7110415View attachment 7110416


Don't get me wrong here, because I'd love to have this unit or others like it right with you. Trying to understand the value proposition of this beyond a certain point and wind calls. Detection and PID are one thing but wind is still king. Wind by the shooter will only take you so far and at night no other indicators available. Hence the value of other more affordable, lighter units. So asking, what's your wind solution at night? I'm sure .gov has some gucchi' solution. Or is this the reason for units like this and better identifiable trace... believe the bullet with the follow-up?

On a side note it kills me to see all that high end goodness... sitting on top of a Harris
 
  • Like
Reactions: shoobe01
Litz, B., Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Volume 1, Applied Ballistics LLC., Cedar Springs, NE

Chapter 17 Wind Measurements, Nick Vitalbo presents information regarding various efforts to find an automated solution to the "downrange crosswind speed" problem.
He mentions several methods including a laser based method which was prototyped in Phase II of the DARPA program.

darpa-one-shot-xg.jpg


Current status of such projects is not discussed :)
 
Don't get me wrong here, because I'd love to have this unit or others like it right with you. Trying to understand the value proposition of this beyond a certain point and wind calls. Detection and PID are one thing but wind is still king. Wind by the shooter will only take you so far and at night no other indicators available. Hence the value of other more affordable, lighter units. So asking, what's your wind solution at night? I'm sure .gov has some gucchi' solution. Or is this the reason for units like this and better identifiable trace... believe the bullet with the follow-up?

On a side note it kills me to see all that high end goodness... sitting on top of a Harris

Wind ain't no thing if we are living in fantasy land and getting the things available to top level .gov people

image.jpg
image.jpg


DARPA has something like the Israeli system I don't have time to find it at the moment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Squibbler
The INOD block 3 can identify structures and vehicles at over 3k, definitely people around 2k. Think of it as having the capabilities of a recon 3 in a rifle sight. I watched a fox hunt mice at over a mile and was able to see the mice. You can save gun profiles so the reticle zero shift is repeatable. Sure, you can’t see wind but calling corrections under black hot thermal is easy since you watch a little black pill smack the earth and then call your correction.

These sights are about shooting yes, but the observation abilities are what make them so critical. Put it on a 5590 cable and you can continuously observe for a couple nights in a row and take pictures. You have a sight that will allow you to call accurate corrections for IDF like mortars etc without needing a huge optical system like a tow sight or crow system.

Is elr useful to the military? Eh, some ppl want it to be and developing capabilities matters in and of itself. Does extreme range observation matter? Yes, and without limits.
 
Even if we could buy the SPARTN I doubt we could. We'd have to do a "Group Buy" to get one unit !!! We've heard prices ranging from $60k to $90k. :ROFLMAO:

spartn_mr-2015-09-690-datasheet-photo_m42.jpg


https://www.leonardodrs.com/product...acquisition-rifle-thermal-night-sight-spartn/

The MWIR cored units cannot be cheap. Just the cores alone. A starting price for a cooled MWIR core is around $20k. Throw in $10k more to get it off the floor. Then another $20k for front and rear lens, then finish up with a housing and a CPU to run it ... $60k sounds cheap !!!
 
Ok, so we've reminded ourselves that various militaries around the planet have new gen MWIR LDTC that we can't buy and even if we could buy them we could't buy them because they cost $60k plus ... so ... net / net ... the idea in the original post still stands. The (commerically available) offerings in the LDTC space are slim and none.

I've looked at building a LDTC and started out wanting to base it on an MWIR core, but had to rule that out as the starting cost for a cooled core (needed to achieve the SPARTN like results) start at $20k and my MSRP goal is max $10k. So, definitely no MWIR cooled core LDTC on the horizon I'm looking at. So we remain in the LWIR camp and that is not so bad.

But we need, at a minimum a 2x lens on the front and 0.5x lens on the rear and rotating collimating prisms on the back. It is this combination of optical features that give us a true LONG DISTANCE THERMAL CLIPON.

And we need the unit not to fall apart in the field. And we need the unit to MSRP at or under $10k. Which really means the total manufacturing cost needs to be under $5k. Is that possible ? Or if not, how close can we get ? That's what a technical and financial feasibility study need to determine !!
 
Talking with a buddy about this stuff recently and decided to go back and re-read some older threads on the subject. Bumping for any new conversation that may pertain to this.
 
Well mostly what happened right after this thread was several small baskets of LWTS-LR hit the commercial market and then many more baskets of UTC-xii hit the commercial market ... and all the folks that were identified as potential investors in a "Group Build LDTC" project got themselves one or more LWTS-LR / UTC-xii to satisfy their itches. That said, the market seems bigger than even I thought it was and folks are "lined up" to get more xii ... if / when more baskets show up.
And we continue to make efforts to import apparently highly capable units from Europe. It remains to be seen if actual "baskets" of LDTC can be obtained.
But the 2 year cold-spell on our ability to get high end (prism collimated) LDTC ended right after my last post in this thread ... the "doldrums" of Jun 2017 - July 2019 passed and was replaced by many dozens of commercially available, high end, LDTC !!
 
Well mostly what happened right after this thread was several small baskets of LWTS-LR hit the commercial market and then many more baskets of UTC-xii hit the commercial market ... and all the folks that were identified as potential investors in a "Group Build LDTC" project got themselves one or more LWTS-LR / UTC-xii to satisfy their itches. That said, the market seems bigger than even I thought it was and folks are "lined up" to get more xii ... if / when more baskets show up.
And we continue to make efforts to import apparently highly capable units from Europe. It remains to be seen if actual "baskets" of LDTC can be obtained.
But the 2 year cold-spell on our ability to get high end (prism collimated) LDTC ended right after my last post in this thread ... the "doldrums" of Jun 2017 - July 2019 passed and was replaced by many dozens of commercially available, high end, LDTC !!

Awesome. Thanks for the info. I'd love to get into a real LDTC, but having been behind an INOD, it would have to be something awesome, and my wallet won't afford awesome at the moment. I may PM you at some point with some more questions if that changes anytime soon. Thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wigwamitus