Long Range Semi Piston Rifle

[imorhi]

Well here's another one of these threads.
I've been lurking too long and not posting so I'm sorry this is my first post.

Anyway I'm looking to buy a semi rifle for long range (~500ryds, but I'd like to be able to take it to 1000yrds with more skill)
I'm hoping to spend around ~$3500 max for the rifle.

I have dealt with DI guns before and I really just want a piston gun even if its just to say its not DI.

What I've looked at so far and my current ranking is:

1. LWRC R.E.P.R. 20"
2. PWS MK2 20"
3. POF P308

I've never dealt with any of these weapons and there aren't any places within 100s of miles that would ever have something like this in stock to look at.

I'm pretty much open to anything but I do have a soft spot for that side charging handle on the R.E.P.R. just because I like being unique.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[jevan126]

You must add GAP-10 and JP LRP-07 to that list, that is if you want the best. Also JP is a super sweet side charger, pretty much everything on it is super sweet. GAP is bad ass too but these are mainly DI guns.

 

[imorhi]

You must add GAP-10 and JP LRP-07 to that list, that is if you want the best. Also JP is a super sweet side charger, pretty much everything on it is super sweet. GAP is bad ass too but these are mainly DI guns.

I've heard great things about those both and I love the JP upper but alas they are still both DI.

I'm pretty stupidly set on a piston rifle so I can feel unique to my AR15 friends.

 

[smaw]

GAP-10 is the way to go for LR AR10. My POF has been great for long range but it came with alot of stuff on it that didnt work for long range so I had to spend alot of extra $ and time upgrading it. The GAP-10 comes with all the options already on it. Plus the GAP comes with a 22" Bartlein stainless barrel. If I had to do it over again I would have got the GAP10.

 

[imorhi]

GAP-10 is the way to go for LR AR10. My POF has been great for long range but it came with alot of stuff on it that didnt work for long range so I had to spend alot of extra $ and time upgrading it. The GAP-10 comes with all the options already on it. Plus the GAP comes with a 22" Bartlein stainless barrel. If I had to do it over again I would have got the GAP10.

But then how does it compare to the REPR? I really would like to stick with piston action

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

The kind of accuracy you speak of is more the shooter than the rifle. A piston battle rifle is not usually thought of as a precision 1000 yd rig. Spend your money on ammo if you wish to score beyond 500.

 

[gunfreak101]

The repr is my choice. I had one but my larue obr could out shoot it so I sold my repr

 

[jevan126]

imorhi I am going to let you in on a secret but you can't tell anyone, JP Enterprise will make you a LRP-07 or a SCR-11 in a PISTON ACTION. Not many people know this but they do. Call and talk to BEN.

 

[imorhi]

imorhi I am going to let you in on a secret but you can't tell anyone, JP Enterprise will make you a LRP-07 or a SCR-11 in a PISTON ACTION. Not many people know this but they do. Call and talk to BEN.

I think I'd die if I had a JP with a piston, I'll definitely give them a call soon.

 

[smaw]

Whatever you end up getting just dont shoot with the bolt action guys because they will just make you wish you had a bolt gun.

 

[MJP68]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/234062-pof-14-5-308-850-yards-holy-s%2A%2At.html

hope that helps.

 

[Jumper]

I have a Mod 0 PWS MK 216. Im very happy with it for what it is; a light weight accurate piston operated 7.62 battle rifle that takes P-Mags. The Mod 1 is a big improvement with its adjustable gas and Free float forearm tube. Mine is very light but only modest recoil thanks to the PWS muzzle brake. When I bought it suppressors werent legal in my state but that has changed and I now have one. But with the suppressor on it is overgassed so I took it off. If you have any plans in the future of running a suppressor be sure you get a rifle with adjustable gas. A piston operated JP LRP-07 would be awesome.

 

[alpha6164]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/234062-pof-14-5-308-850-yards-holy-s%2A%2At.html

hope that helps.

This is my rifle and shooting. Don't buy the hype that pistons are not accurate. Talk to people that own POFs and they are as accurate as it gets. The PWS I like for 5.56 or as a battle rifle but does not have the sub-MOA capability of POF. I own 3 LWRC rifles and they are all 5.56 and great and most reports show about MOA accuracy which is also fine but if you want sub-MOA you need to go to POF.

Frank himself here has talked about the accuracy of the POFs he has shot. They also use a match grade barrel as well. I think it's a Mike Rock but don't quote me on it. Remember that I can hand you the most accurate semi precision but if you are not used to shooting a semi for precision you will be highly disappointed.

The number of times I have someone lay behind my rifle and shoot a 2-3" group at 100 yards and then I get behind the rifle and make a 3/4" group blows their mind. Shooting a semi will def humble you as a shooter. But if you at least start with a known accurate rifle you know that at least it's you lol. If I can shoot a 1/2moa group with a 14.5" POF that should pretty much tell you and trust me I don't even consider myself an amazing shooter. I just don't give up and continue to practice to get it right.

Last point is that POF is available now. $2100 gets you a nice rifle that is ready to go vs paying more and waiting months for something that is not. Hope this helps.

 

[imorhi]

Well as of now it looks like I'm going to be calling JP about my dream rifle (hopefully within my price range!) but from what I've read here and throughout the web the POF is now looking like my second choice.

On a side note does anyone know about mil discounts for either of these two companies? I already increased my budget by almost 1.5 when I found out what I could be getting so under $3000 would make me much happier.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

First off, I am not selling anything here. I have no bone in this dog fight. Second, you will not be able to get as much long range rifle precision in a semi-auto as you would a bolt gun. With that being said, I would recommend an HK piston driven system.

I have both the LWRCi (in SBR) and the HK MR556A1 and when comparing the two, the HK is far superior. So if you want a semi-auto in .308 I would recommend the HK MR762. Here is an example of one for sale within your price range: HK MR762 A1 308 Win / 7.62 NEW! H&K : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

I have fed over 4000 rounds through my HK and never a failure. That rifle is my work horse. It is very easy to clean and everything about it just screams quality. There are a few HK bashers out there, which is fine. They simply cannot afford a rifle of that caliber (no pun intended).

If you want more reasons why, let me know. But if you want ultra accuracy look at the BCM MK12 models and then the JP rifles. Also, the GAP-10, but like you said, they are all DI type rifles.

 

[19Scout77]

You will find a whole slew of big frame piston fans who will happily brag about the ONE or TWO amazing groups they shot at distance. You will also find another group of actual shooters that shot the snot out of big frame pistons before they gave up due to the lack of consistent acceptable accuracy. In other words, POF and LWRC do not cut it when real consistent match winning long range accuracy is needed.

 

[thehaunt]

JP gives a mil discount---a hefty one.

 

[tipper]

You will find a whole slew of big frame piston fans who will happily brag about the ONE or TWO amazing groups they shot at distance. You will also find another group of actual shooters that shot the snot out of big frame pistons before they gave up due to the lack of consistent acceptable accuracy. In other words, POF and LWRC do not cut it when real constent match winning long range accuracy is needed.

can you tell me what this constant is, if the rifle runs cleaner & cooler than DI rifle, I don't want a gun that just goes bang.

 

[Razor74]

If you want piston just to say you have a piston, then I would not totally rule out a DI system. The main reasons for a piston are cooler op temps, easyer to clean and mostly if you are going to run it suppressed. I have a POF and love it, but they are not for everyone no gun is that why there are so many. As far as bolt guns being inherently more accurate, maybe 10yrs ago I would have agreed, advancements in technology for cnc machines and better barrels have pretty much closed this gap, tolerances are much tighter thus ar platforms are much more accurate and consistent then they used to be. Bolt guns are easyer to shoot, but if you put in the time and find the right load ar's can be and are just as accurate. My POF is consistently .50-.75 shooter. Ultimately you will have to look at the specs and the options for each gun and get the best bang for your buck, you know what they say about opinions and everyone's got one, just my .02 cents

 

[imorhi]

If you want piston just to say you have a piston, then I would not totally rule out a DI system. The main reasons for a piston are cooler op temps, easyer to clean and mostly if you are going to run it suppressed. I have a POF and love it, but they are not for everyone no gun is that why there are so many. As far as bolt guns being inherently more accurate, maybe 10yrs ago I would have agreed, advancements in technology for cnc machines and better barrels have pretty much closed this gap, tolerances are much tighter thus ar platforms are much more accurate and consistent then they used to be. Bolt guns are easyer to shoot, but if you put in the time and find the right load ar's can be and are just as accurate. My POF is consistently .50-.75 shooter. Ultimately you will have to look at the specs and the options for each gun and get the best bang for your buck, you know what they say about opinions and everyone's got one, just my .02 cents

That may be true about the piston but I'm also planning on running a ton of rounds without any cleaning for days in the desert.
That is one of the reasons I'd like piston, but if someone can prove to me that a DI JP or GAP can handle that kind of use and environment then I'd feel much better about going DI.
I do plan on going suppressed at some point but I'm being moved to Mississippi soon so it may be a bit before I get a can.

 

[Cobracutter]

I really wish there was a required reading section before new members started posting gargle like this.

Everything you think you know about these types of rifles OP, is wrong. I am not being mean or harsh, but realistic. The membership is trying to help you here. LISTEN TO THEM.

Now your money, your choice, and your the one that will have to deal with whatever decision you make..

As far as the piston vs DI AR argument goes... it was hashed out years ago, and there is not a piston AR worth owning, PERIOD (416 is debatable). For Long range or precision work, it just reinforces the same point.

The fact that you are questioning the reliability and quality of the most proven AR designs on the market, means you need to read more before asking silly questions like this. You are making assumtions, that are flat wrong, and have been beaten to death on every reputable gun board on the net.

With all that being said, Buy a Scar17. It will outshoot any piston AR on the planet and has features that no AR does. It is lighter, recoils less, easier to clean, more ergonomic, better optic platform, and even has a gas setting for you to run suppressed.

Saying your going to buy a gun so you never have to clean it is like saying your going to buy a car that you never plan to put oil in. Let us know how it works out for ya.

 

[Cobracutter]

First off, I am not selling anything here. I have no bone in this dog fight. Second, you will not be able to get as much long range rifle precision in a semi-auto as you would a bolt gun. With that being said, I would recommend an HK piston driven system.

I have both the LWRCi (in SBR) and the HK MR556A1 and when comparing the two, the HK is far superior. So if you want a semi-auto in .308 I would recommend the HK MR762. Here is an example of one for sale within your price range: HK MR762 A1 308 Win / 7.62 NEW! H&K : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

I have fed over 4000 rounds through my HK and never a failure. That rifle is my work horse. It is very easy to clean and everything about it just screams quality. There are a few HK bashers out there, which is fine. They simply cannot afford a rifle of that caliber (no pun intended).

If you want more reasons why, let me know. But if you want ultra accuracy look at the BCM MK12 models and then the JP rifles. Also, the GAP-10, but like you said, they are all DI type rifles.

You think people who can afford KAC, GAP and JP cannot afford HK? Your going to run that line on a site full of guys running $5-15K rigs?

Hk's arent popular beacuse they are overpriced shit. The MR556 is Massivley heavy, not even close to an actual HK416 and has issues running many mags. The 762 is the same boat, except is uses pripority mags that cost $90 (if you can find them) and typical HK "we hate you" suppport. For the same money you can get a well thought out, designed, assembled and QC'ed American rifle that has the full support of the guys who built it, along with collective resources such as this site. I shoot HK pistols so don't think I'm an HK hater, but they don't even crack the top 10 in Large Frame AR's to own.

 

[jevan126]

SMAW Do not think for a second that a JP or a GAP will not run with bolt guns, I have seen it with my own eyes. Yes a Bolt gun will still have a slight advantage when it comes to accuracy but not as much as you might think. Why do you think that SWAT teams and other military operations are turning to Semi-Auto rifles instead of bolt action, they are very accurate with much more firepower.

 

[Cobracutter]

They also amplify shooting error and poor fundementals..... Military wants firepower.... police want to look cool and have the latest shit on the block.

When a Gap10 or JP wins the PRS, let us know.

 

[imorhi]

I really wish there was a required reading section before new members started posting gargle like this.

Everything you think you know about these types of rifles OP, is wrong. I am not being mean or harsh, but realistic. The membership is trying to help you here. LISTEN TO THEM.

Now your money, your choice, and your the one that will have to deal with whatever decision you make..

As far as the piston vs DI AR argument goes... it was hashed out years ago, and there is not a piston AR worth owning, PERIOD (416 is debatable). For Long range or precision work, it just reinforces the same point.

The fact that you are questioning the reliability and quality of the most proven AR designs on the market, means you need to read more before asking silly questions like this. You are making assumtions, that are flat wrong, and have been beaten to death on every reputable gun board on the net.

With all that being said, Buy a Scar17. It will outshoot any piston AR on the planet and has features that no AR does. It is lighter, recoils less, easier to clean, more ergonomic, better optic platform, and even has a gas setting for you to run suppressed.

Saying your going to buy a gun so you never have to clean it is like saying your going to buy a car that you never plan to put oil in. Let us know how it works out for ya.

Well I can't say I'm surprised that I'm wrong because this is my first real experience with high end semi's.
The SCAR 17 is an option but after firing some in the past (military weapons) I don't know how I feel about the ergonomics.
If you believe that strongly about DI over piston then there are obviously good reasons that I should be looking more at DI.
I never meant that I would never be cleaning the weapon but on multi-day backpacking/shooting excursions I don't plan on cleaning my guns while still in the desert.
I've had poor experience with mil issued M16A3's and M4's jamming if they're not running pretty wet and clean.

 

[Cobracutter]

M4's and M16's are supposed to be run wet..... they will take an insane ammount of abuse (especialy the 16) as long as they are lubed. There are very VERY few rifles that can be run dirty with just lube, that are as reliable as an M16 variant.

Just about every weapon will choke when it gets dirty enough, dry or both. Pistons are a solution looking for a problem.

 

[jevan126]

Cobracutter all I am trying to say is that semi-auto rifles have come a long way when it comes to accuracy, yes a Bolt Action rifle will be more accurate but the margin is not that great anymore.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

You think people who can afford KAC, GAP and JP cannot afford HK? Your going to run that line on a site full of guys running $5-15K rigs?

I was only responding to the OP's budget requests. The MR762 fits right in there.

Hk's arent popular beacuse they are overpriced shit. The MR556 is Massivley heavy, not even close to an actual HK416 and has issues running many mags. The 762 is the same boat, except is uses pripority mags that cost $90 (if you can find them) and typical HK "we hate you" suppport. For the same money you can get a well thought out, designed, assembled and QC'ed American rifle that has the full support of the guys who built it, along with collective resources such as this site. I shoot HK pistols so don't think I'm an HK hater, but they don't even crack the top 10 in Large Frame AR's to own.

So now we all know that you are a HK hater. Thank you for playing. Please drive forward and collect your cookie.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, despite many opinions. The HK for me has worked very well. It is not overpriced shit. I speak from first hand experience using the rifle in many different situations. They are quality.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

SMAW Do not think for a second that a JP or a GAP will not run with bolt guns, I have seen it with my own eyes. Yes a Bolt gun will still have a slight advantage when it comes to accuracy but not as much as you might think. Why do you think that SWAT teams and other military operations are turning to Semi-Auto rifles instead of bolt action, they are very accurate with much more firepower.

I think it is important to understand what the police use sniper rifles for. Most shots within 100 yards or less. Any semi-auto performs reasonably well within those parameters. But asking them to compete at longer ranges is an exercise in futility. I am not sure what your experience is, but at a lot of the competitions I go to, they have to have a separate class for the semi-autos since they cannot perform on par with the bolt guns. And I am talking quality AR-10's such at the GAP-10.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Well I can't say I'm surprised that I'm wrong because this is my first real experience with high end semi's.
The SCAR 17 is an option but after firing some in the past (military weapons) I don't know how I feel about the ergonomics.
If you believe that strongly about DI over piston then there are obviously good reasons that I should be looking more at DI.
I never meant that I would never be cleaning the weapon but on multi-day backpacking/shooting excursions I don't plan on cleaning my guns while still in the desert.
I've had poor experience with mil issued M16A3's and M4's jamming if they're not running pretty wet and clean.

Imorhi,

I have run my HK through a lot. The cleaning is very straight forward. Most times, I only clean the barrel. The piston system does make cleaning easier, PERIOD. Hold onto your ideas here and do not get sidetracked by someone with a strong opinion. Take all of the information and make your own decision. Listening to a lot of guys on this site will give you great information. Just be sure to read ALL of it, not just the loudest.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

M4's and M16's are supposed to be run wet..... they will take an insane ammount of abuse (especialy the 16) as long as they are lubed. There are very VERY few rifles that can be run dirty with just lube, that are as reliable as an M16 variant.

Just about every weapon will choke when it gets dirty enough, dry or both. Pistons are a solution looking for a problem.

Here is an interesting video:

HK (Heckler & Koch) versus Colt - YouTube

What are your thoughts on this video Cobra? Have you been able to prove this video untrue?

 

[Razor74]

M4's and M16's are supposed to be run wet..... they will take an insane ammount of abuse (especialy the 16) as long as they are lubed. There are very VERY few rifles that can be run dirty with just lube, that are as reliable as an M16 variant.

Just about every weapon will choke when it gets dirty enough, dry or both. Pistons are a solution looking for a problem.

I agree with some of what you have said, but pistons are a solution looking for a problem is not completly accurate. The most successful battle rifle in history ie the AK platform is a piston system, and there's not an ar on the planet that will out last a AK under harse conditions, and it will spit out everything you put in it. Accuracy wise of course a AR will win hands down. The fact that alot of companies ar fielding some sort of piston system says that there is at least some merit to the system . The Tavor is also another battle proven piston system that works extremely well. That being said there is nothing wrong or broken with a DI system, it just requires alittle more tlc than the average piston gun.

 

[308Gunner]

Jsut my .02 but when I can affford it I am going to get a Gap 10 I have bolt guns and ARs but want a 6creed in a GAP

 

[ReimoS]

Depends on the definition of accuracy - putting someone's eye out or just enough to kill a 2-legged critter. I say Galil Sniper, just to be different.

 

[jevan126]

Alright all you non-believers that a semi-auto rifle is not as accurate and can't hold it's own against a bolt action ? Google 2012 International sniper competitions and read about Daniel Horner took his LRP-07 and delivered .5 MOA past 700 yards to sweep a victory. So people are always asking for proof, this is saying on that day Staff Sgt. Daniel Horner shot a JP LRP-07 rifle and delivered a shot group that was .5 @ over 700 yards away, please remember this is only a semi-auto rifle. Have a good day

 

[19Scout77]

The issue is not whether any large frame semi can be consistently accurate at distance, it is whether a large frame piston ar can be. Horner's rifle, not piston. Lets see the list of match winning POF and LWRC shooters...

The issue is not piston battle rifles and not di large frames. Its funny how piston fans, when faced with a question they cannot answer, simply answer the question they WISH was asked.

 

[Cobracutter]

Imorhi,

I have run my HK through a lot. The cleaning is very straight forward. Most times, I only clean the barrel. The piston system does make cleaning easier, PERIOD. Hold onto your ideas here and do not get sidetracked by someone with a strong opinion. Take all of the information and make your own decision. Listening to a lot of guys on this site will give you great information. Just be sure to read ALL of it, not just the loudest.

And your experince is..... one gun? There are thousands of 6920's out there that havent choked in 4-5K rounds..... Cleaning an AR isnt rocket science and they easily go a couple K rounds with nothing but lube.

Lets ignore the thousands of users and hundreds of experts and trainers in the shooting community who will say the exact same thing.

Both of the commercial HK rifles miss the mark for different reasons. Even the 416 comes deficent from the factory, which is why just about everyone who can, replaces the rail with a Geissele.

The only thing a piston gun does, is tell you whose advice NOT to listen to.

 

[Cobracutter]

I agree with some of what you have said, but pistons are a solution looking for a problem is not completly accurate. The most successful battle rifle in history ie the AK platform is a piston system, and there's not an ar on the planet that will out last a AK under harse conditions, and it will spit out everything you put in it. Accuracy wise of course a AR will win hands down. The fact that alot of companies ar fielding some sort of piston system says that there is at least some merit to the system . The Tavor is also another battle proven piston system that works extremely well. That being said there is nothing wrong or broken with a DI system, it just requires alittle more tlc than the average piston gun.

PISTON AR.

I own a Scar17, a 16" Tavor and a bunch of other piston rifles. They have jack and shit to do with DI AR systems, which is pretty close to perfection. There is a reason its the oldest standard issue rifle in american history.

Like I said, this debate (if you can even call such a one sided arguement, that) was hashed out years ago.

 

[Cobracutter]

Alright all you non-believers that a semi-auto rifle is not as accurate and can't hold it's own against a bolt action ? Google 2012 International sniper competitions and read about Daniel Horner took his LRP-07 and delivered .5 MOA past 700 yards to sweep a victory. So people are always asking for proof, this is saying on that day Staff Sgt. Daniel Horner shot a JP LRP-07 rifle and delivered a shot group that was .5 @ over 700 yards away, please remember this is only a semi-auto rifle. Have a good day

One example out of hundreds of thousands. No one is saying they aren't accurate.

Are you even listening to what is being said? There are more variables that go into it, then you understand.

Start with searching semi-vs bolt , spend a couple days on the site.... and come back with your new education.

EDIT: People actualy watch those shitty DVD's Larue throws into his orders?

 

[alpha6164]

One example out of hundreds of thousands. No one is saying they aren't accurate.

Are you even listening to what is being said? There are more variables that go into it, then you understand.

Start with searching semi-vs bolt , spend a couple days on the site.... and come back with your new education.

EDIT: People actualy watch those shitty DVD's Larue throws into his orders?

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. There are two systems and it is what it is. I could have bought any rifle I wanted. Money was not an option and I chose the POF 14.5". Did I purchase this to make it a 1000 yard 1/2 MOA rifle? Hell no. I wanted a piston cause it shoots clean and cool. I have a Noveske 5.56 and one of my favorite rifles however if i I am putting major rounds down range in a quick hurry it will seize up after 400-500 rounds without being lubed. We are not talking about going to the range and shooting a couple of mags here and there. During Costas advanced carbine it fucking seized on me doing a long drawn out session going through 4-5 mag changes rapidly and it had already need shot about 300-400 rounds in the last hour. You couldn't even touch the bolt.


I switched to my LWRC 5.56 and for next two days never lubed and did same intensity without any failures. The fact that my POF 308 even shoots MOA let alone sub-MOA I am thrilled about. I shoot suppressed and it is also much better with piston rifles and don't have all that gas in my fucking face. Bottom line is even if I sacrifice 1/4-1/2 MOA in accuracy (since this is not a setup for true precision) the fact that I have a short 14.5" set up that can shoot this well to 850 yards and run like a sewing machine I will take that any day.

 

[Cobracutter]

Look man, I'm not trying to be argumentitive, but this is really not up for debate.

ALL guns and especialy semi/auto's where there are a ton of fast moving metal parts NEED lube. A piston is no resistant to lube than DI or anything. In fact, your gun will run better dirty. Once there is a nice little layer of carbon, it will act as a buffer and as long as you keep it wet, it will run for a very long time. Only an idiot would run an AR dry, and then bitch about it when it starts to malfunction. An even bigger idiot, would spend money on a Costa class. An even BIGGER idiot would spend all that money on travel/course fees/ammo and fail to do propper PM on their equipment. Would you buy a brand new Corvette and then drain the oil and bitch to dealership when the motor blows?

If your noveske was choking, then it was either user error or an equipment flaw/malfunction. Keep in mind that Noveske's are not proven combat weapons like Colt/KAC/LMT/FN/ect, and are boutique guns. With that being said, Noveske puts out products that are magnitudes of better quality, material and QC than anything LWRC, POF , or other ignorance (brands that market based on ignorance) brands marketed to the lowest common denominator.

There is this reoccuring theme where people think that 1 gun or 2 is some sort of statistical sample , representitive of the overall quality of a gun. Furthermore, they prove that they don't even have a basic understanding of the systems, the marketplace, and how to operate said weapon systems propperly. All you have to do is look for class reports. Want to know why XD's or DPMS or any other bargain brand are unreliable pieces of shit? Just read class AAR's and people who run them hard. Ask the trainers like Vickers, Hackthorn, Haley, McNarma,ect and they will tell you the same thing. Hell you can go to M4c and half of them have their own forum where you can ask them questions about brands/setups/ect. There are also plenty of guys who were participants in various Military and LE weapon test/evaulations (Including a couple on this site) who have run these guns, In groups, harder than you our I will. They know what works and what will hold up to abuse and what will fail. Ignoring their advice and experince is detremental to your education.

Like Lowlight has said many times on this site: ownership does not equal proffiency (or some shit like that)

Want to actualy learn how to run a Pistol/Carbine? Here ya go: Alias Training - Home . Any of the names of the left will tell you the exact same shit I just did, only you will pay for it. Don't waste your time and money with shitheads like costa who have zero pedigree and market to the same lowest common denominator as POF/LWRC/ect. All of these lessons are combat proven. Different people, in different organizations, in different nations have all come to similar conclusions based of what works, what doesn't and what can be improved. If your going to spend time and money, do it with someone who actualy knows what the fuck they are talking about first hand.... not a magpul shill with a cool beard.

 

[alpha6164]

Look man, I'm not trying to be argumentitive, but this is really not up for debate.

ALL guns and especialy semi/auto's where there are a ton of fast moving metal parts NEED lube. A piston is no resistant to lube than DI or anything. In fact, your gun will run better dirty. Once there is a nice little layer of carbon, it will act as a buffer and as long as you keep it wet, it will run for a very long time. Only an idiot would run an AR dry, and then bitch about it when it starts to malfunction. An even bigger idiot, would spend money on a Costa class. An even BIGGER idiot would spend all that money on travel/course fees/ammo and fail to do propper PM on their equipment. Would you buy a brand new Corvette and then drain the oil and bitch to dealership when the motor blows?

If your noveske was choking, then it was either user error or an equipment flaw/malfunction. Keep in mind that Noveske's are not proven combat weapons like Colt/KAC/LMT/FN/ect, and are boutique guns. With that being said, Noveske puts out products that are magnitudes of better quality, material and QC than anything LWRC, POF , or other ignorance (brands that market based on ignorance) brands marketed to the lowest common denominator.

There is this reoccuring theme where people think that 1 gun or 2 is some sort of statistical sample , representitive of the overall quality of a gun. Furthermore, they prove that they don't even have a basic understanding of the systems, the marketplace, and how to operate said weapon systems propperly. All you have to do is look for class reports. Want to know why XD's or DPMS or any other bargain brand are unreliable pieces of shit? Just read class AAR's and people who run them hard. Ask the trainers like Vickers, Hackthorn, Haley, McNarma,ect and they will tell you the same thing. Hell you can go to M4c and half of them have their own forum where you can ask them questions about brands/setups/ect. There are also plenty of guys who were participants in various Military and LE weapon test/evaulations (Including a couple on this site) who have run these guns, In groups, harder than you our I will. They know what works and what will hold up to abuse and what will fail. Ignoring their advice and experince is detremental to your education.

Like Lowlight has said many times on this site: ownership does not equal proffiency (or some shit like that)

Want to actualy learn how to run a Pistol/Carbine? Here ya go: Alias Training - Home . Any of the names of the left will tell you the exact same shit I just did, only you will pay for it. Don't waste your time and money with shitheads like costa who have zero pedigree and market to the same lowest common denominator as POF/LWRC/ect. All of these lessons are combat proven. Different people, in different organizations, in different nations have all come to similar conclusions based of what works, what doesn't and what can be improved. If your going to spend time and money, do it with someone who actualy knows what the fuck they are talking about first hand.... not a magpul shill with a cool beard.

It sounds like you obviously have some mental deficiencies. Hear what they say when you make assumptions right? First of all Costa has not been with Magpul for over two years so get your information correct. Second why would you assume I paid for any class or make travel arrangements? Cost is a very good friend of mine and is from Jacksonville so I train for free shithead. Trust me I don't need to learn how to run the pistol carbine anytime you want to test out come down and I'll show you how it's really done. And let's not talk about Corvettes an oil change I drive a $300,000 car I know what oil and gears all about. The bottom line is in a real SHTF situation are you going to do ask for a pause so you can lube your shitty ass rifle? You really cracked me up. You keep your rifles and I'll keep mindless just keep it that way but don't trying to convince me on your theories. There's a reason the military decided to go with the scar.

 

[19Scout77]

Shocker...the Lambo reference comes out! How dare you mention something as pedestrian as a corvette.

 

[Cobracutter]

It sounds like you obviously have some mental deficiencies. Hear what they say when you make assumptions right? First of all Costa has not been with Magpul for over two years so get your information correct. Second why would you assume I paid for any class or make travel arrangements? Cost is a very good friend of mine and is from Jacksonville so I train for free shithead. Trust me I don't need to learn how to run the pistol carbine anytime you want to test out come down and I'll show you how it's really done. And let's not talk about Corvettes an oil change I drive a $300,000 car I know what oil and gears all about. The bottom line is in a real SHTF situation are you going to do ask for a pause so you can lube your shitty ass rifle? You really cracked me up. You keep your rifles and I'll keep mindless just keep it that way but don't trying to convince me on your theories. There's a reason the military decided to go with the scar.

1. Excuse me for not knowing before hand you are friends with a trainer. Considering virtualy EVERYONE who takes training either pays for it, or has their entity pay for it..... its a pretty safe assumtion. This must be why you are jocking his balls, while ignoring the fact his is a joke to most of the industry. Enjoy your free 'training" or whatever it is.

2. Clearly based on your misconceptions and lack of knowlege with these weapon systems....... you could teach anyone little. Something as basic and fundemental as lubing your weapon is taught to every private in the Army and Marines, even the low ASVABer's that you seem to closely resemble based on the ignorance that is spewing from your posts. Historicaly, through ignorance and myths such as the shit you are pushing... Many leaders in the military thought you should run your gun dry and keep it inspection clean. Just like in Vietnam and desert Storm, OIF/OEF have proven to the same idiot leaders that these guns run the best wet.

3. Back to my first post... OWNERSHIP DOES NOT EQUAL PROFICIENCY. Then again, everyone on the internet lives in a mansion, drives a bently, rails supermodels and has a 12" dick. Since you seem to have it all figured out, how about you explain what happens inside of an engine, and what happens when there is no lube. Then you can explain what happens inside and outside of a semi-auto rifle chamber...... and what happens when there is no lube. Show me ONE reputable rifle manufacter that instructs to run their weapon without lube................I'll be waiting.

4. The "Military" did not go with the SCAR. USSOCOM did. After about 10 years, Tens/Hundreds of millions of dollars and a from the ground up weapon system family......only the MK17 and MK20 are still used. There are many elements within SOCOM that don't even use the SCAR beacuse the like other shit like KAC, better.

So in summation, the best gunfighters in the military designed a weapon system utilizing a piston with the features they wanted.......AND still shitcanned it because it does nothing better than a Block II SOPMOD or MK18. For guys that can shoot anything they want practicaly and are going into harms way on the regular.............do you find it ironic they chose to stick with the DI gun over the Piston? I think you need to send a memo over to them about propper weapon maintance and lubing.

 

[Rodo]

Seems to me there is a reason the SEAL's, DEVGRU especially, all seem to be running the 416 in some form or another for battle rifles, and some variation of the SR25 for more precise shooting, all of which from my limited Google search are DI. Theres a local range, Retired SEAL owned, and he prefers what runs and gets the mission accomplished, not what looks cool or is popular. And why not, his life and those of the guys in his team depended on reliability. Is a piston an end all beat all solution to the issues of the M4 and M16's? No, but its an improvement for some of them, but not a replacement for weapons maintenance either.

But aside from the Mine hangs lower arguments, no one seems to address any reasons that a piston would not be as accurate as DI for long range shooting, so please allow me to venture an opinion on this matter. To me, its a matter of air blowing, or a solid piece of metal banging around. The piston may make it more reliable against dirty actions and bolts, but it is also a solid mounted moving part banging back and forth against the action AND the barrel. If you free float a barrel, the general idea is to relieve pressure points on the barrel that may alter the barrel whip and flex, potentially adversely effecting accuracy, right? Introduce a reciprocating metal mass banging on the barrel, using the barrel itself for its base to start the banging, its springboard so to speak, and you have more potential barrel movement than with just a bunch of hot air blowing around through a block and tube.

Since car analogies are so popular this thread, think of it like this: An exceptionally stiff gust of wind lasting 5 seconds and blowing at 100mph against your house, or a Lotus Elise hitting your house at 100mph, hell, even a Smart Car if it were able to get to 100mph without the requisite tail wind. What does more damage, wind that will flex to the environment more readily, or a solid mass putting direct energy and altering its environment more than it flexes to the environment?

I may be way off base, but I bet a Mercury Dime that even if I am off, Im still sub MOA on my opinion/thoughts on this.

 

[Cobracutter]

Rodo,

Its not just an accuracy issue. Its a reliability issue, a parts issue, a weight issue, an an accuracy issue. The 416 was an example of one of the better piston guns, that still has it's weaknesses. The MAIN reason they are popular is for suppressor use. That is why they were designed.... beacuse guys who run nothing but cans (like DEVGRU) on 10.5 and 14.5 uppers wanted something that would run more reliable and work in a martitime enviroment. Guys like Larry Vickers who helped develop the 416 (and other HK rigs like the HK45 along with Hackthorn) will be the first to tell you, a piston gun is inferior outside of a small niche'. You also have to realize that it was developed durring a time when the Short Barreled AR was still an experiment. SEALS like the 416 beacuse it works good around water, and runs well supressed.

Since then, they have figured out port size, dwell times, and other variables to keep a 10.3"+ barrel running reliably both suppressed and unsuppresed. Here is an Article from HK's website that Vickers wrote. http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/shared/HK M27 IAR.pdf. Even he says, unless you are running supressed, short barreled and/or very high round count in full auto, then a DI is a better choice.

You will also notice that Larry along with a bunch of other former SOCOM guys who instruct now, are not running 416 or piston guns as their primary rifles. Why do you think that is?

Lasty, to consider POF or LWRC as anywhere near the quality as a 416 (which has its own flaws that have been addressed on the accsesory market) is a joke. Also, a MR556 and a HK416 are not even close to the same gun.

Look at the high end AR industry, the trainers, the operators, the high vollume competetors................Ask yourself why guys are running DD, BCM and KAC SBR's when they could afford anything in the market. ALL DI guns.

 

[alpha6164]

Seems to me there is a reason the SEAL's, DEVGRU especially, all seem to be running the 416 in some form or another for battle rifles, and some variation of the SR25 for more precise shooting, all of which from my limited Google search are DI. Theres a local range, Retired SEAL owned, and he prefers what runs and gets the mission accomplished, not what looks cool or is popular. And why not, his life and those of the guys in his team depended on reliability. Is a piston an end all beat all solution to the issues of the M4 and M16's? No, but its an improvement for some of them, but not a replacement for weapons maintenance either.

But aside from the Mine hangs lower arguments, no one seems to address any reasons that a piston would not be as accurate as DI for long range shooting, so please allow me to venture an opinion on this matter. To me, its a matter of air blowing, or a solid piece of metal banging around. The piston may make it more reliable against dirty actions and bolts, but it is also a solid mounted moving part banging back and forth against the action AND the barrel. If you free float a barrel, the general idea is to relieve pressure points on the barrel that may alter the barrel whip and flex, potentially adversely effecting accuracy, right? Introduce a reciprocating metal mass banging on the barrel, using the barrel itself for its base to start the banging, its springboard so to speak, and you have more potential barrel movement than with just a bunch of hot air blowing around through a block and tube.

Since car analogies are so popular this thread, think of it like this: An exceptionally stiff gust of wind lasting 5 seconds and blowing at 100mph against your house, or a Lotus Elise hitting your house at 100mph, hell, even a Smart Car if it were able to get to 100mph without the requisite tail wind. What does more damage, wind that will flex to the environment more readily, or a solid mass putting direct energy and altering its environment more than it flexes to the environment?

I may be way off base, but I bet a Mercury Dime that even if I am off, Im still sub MOA on my opinion/thoughts on this.

I am not disagreeing with anythjng you say here nor have I ever said that pistons are MORE accurate than DI or just as accurate. I am against the notion that cause it's a piston it must be garbage theory. I already said that even due to the piston design if I am losing 1/4 to 1/2 MOA compared to DI I am ok due to the other benefits it gives me.

 

[Tact999]

Long Range Semi Piston Rifle

Talk about jocking someone's balls.....how do Lunchbox Larry's taste cobra?

 

[Cobracutter]

Talk about jocking someone's balls.....how do Lunchbox Larry's taste cobra?

Yea beacuse repeating what one of the most respected, combat proven trainers in the world, who also helped developed the fucking gun in question.........is jocking?

You got anything of actual value to add to the thread or just here to drop a shit and run away? You know more about the 416 than he does?

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Yea beacuse repeating what one of the most respected, combat proven trainers in the world, who also helped developed the fucking gun in question.........is jocking?

You got anything of actual value to add to the thread or just here to drop a shit and run away? You know more about the 416 than he does?

Speaking of which, can you provide documentation, links or direction to confirm your assertions? Is there reference material we can review that would prove the piston AR-15's are "crap" and DI's rifles are the best? Maybe you could create a report for us to review?

I only stated my personal first hand experience. I also wanted to explain to the OP how the HK MR556 was superior to the LWRC M6-A3. That was all. Then you came in on a lightning chariot from the gods explaining your opinions. Please back up your contentions with fact, if you may.