looking for new hunting rifle for large western game

[Forrest84]

The poor bastard (OP) asked if anyone had experience with Winchester Model 70 with wood stock in 270 or 300WSM because THAT WAS THE ONLY THING HE WAS INTERESTED IN. One person answered correctly.

LOL shit cant help but go off track around here like nowhere I've ever seen. right now all I have is a 6 creed in the stable and I'm not taking it. I don't care how confident I am with it . everybody I know that hunt elk every year tells me to go with anything to at the least a 270, and is further reinforced by their guides telling them to do so even if you are a good marksman. I'm simply deferring to the people i personally know for a fact shoot elk every year. This simply presented me with an opportunity to get a rifle that had been on my mind for some time now which was a mod 70 with wood stock like the 257 I grew up shooting with my father that was lost years ago.

 

[sroc112]

I also have been entertaining the thought of a wood stock hunting rifle, likely in 300WM. I've always been a bit thrown off from wood just in terms of weather, longevity, accuracy, etc. However, I love the traditional look. When it comes to who makes a good quality wood stock vs poor quality, I'm kind of clueless. Was eyeing a tikka t3x forest, also briefly glanced at a rem 700. I'd like to keep the budget on that under $1k if I could.

 

[davsco]

I first wanted to just get a TIKKA in 300WSM and call it good.

that's the right answer (gun and caliber), worked for me a few years back when i got a small bull and large cow.

i will say though the first shot on the cow, 200yds, was a perfect hit but didn't seem to affect her. she and her buddy ran some 25-50yds. i couldn't even tell which one i hit but then finally the one started sputtering and i put another one in her for good measure. pretty much ditto for the bull at 400 yds. while i'm sure lots have had success with lesser, if not much lesser, calibers, if i get to go elk hunting again it will be with 300wsm or 7prc or the like.

i'd suggest not going with wood. the gun will get the crap beat out of it plus wood generally doesn't handle rain, snow etc as good.

good luck!!!!!!

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Regarding the use of the smaller sizes of caliber’s used for the larger ungulate specie……………..

Just because you can…does not mean you should.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Getting back to the subject at hand. The new Remington’s BDL’s look very well made. I wonder if they work and shoot as good as they look and feel (including the action smoothness) As I mentioned earlier, the Weatherby’s are very nice rifles and they work very well. (And shoot darned good!). Bergara’s have nice barrels and their rifles might work as well.

My point, there are quite a few really decent firearms available, easily in the price range. Go to a well stocked gunshop and get the feel of them.

Then, next, as the OP should know, being around here for a bit, Get A Really Nice Piece of Glass to go on top of the rifle.

Oh, my last point, don’t get enthralled with the tv hunting shows where they shoot game animals at ranges that would make a 155mm Howitzer proud. And when hit, the animals hit the ground so hard one would think they were hit with an inert 16 inch round from a Naval Rifle, (Mounted on a WWII Battleship) Keep the ranges reasonable, make sure you get a good kill.

 

[wildturkey2]

The Weatherby Vauguard Sporter model, is avaialbe in .270 as well as .30-06, 300 Win Mag and 300 Weatherby Mag and 7mm Remington Mag. Accuracy is reliable for hunting standards, and the price is well within your limits. Mine is reliable, shoots good groups, at point of aim, hot or cold and in the caliber I choose, is a certified whitetail killer. (.25-06. )


Below, Sporter Model.
View attachment 8422008

Just a good old 308 !! 30 06 is bad either. 7 mm mag my choices

 

[BlackRock601]

Man I don't even know what's going on at this point. Him never having killed an elk and being this mad threw me for a loop. I feel like I have a concussion.

I'm going to keep it real man, I'm not going to let you assign me homework over something you have literally no experience with or knowledge of just because you're mad at me. Especially given you've already proven you won't accept any evidence anyway.

@Forrest84 sorry for the thread derail. If you buy a rifle chambered in anything 6mm or bigger (since I don't know what state you're hunting) you're fine. I'm unsure on your goal weight for the rifle you're after but if you could stretch for a Seekins PH2 they're great. If $1500 is a hard limit your inclination to go with a Tikka will always be a solid idea.

And lastly if the factory thing was more of a price limit, Aero has a cool sale going on for Memorial Day right now. The barreled action is 5.5 pounds though so the finished rifle would probably end up in the area of 9.5-10 pounds once you put on a stock/scope. Supposedly you can get an additional 15% off by signing up for their email alerts or whatever. So the below barreled action would be $700. I'm not affiliated with Aero in any way but people seem to like them. If you put a KRG Bravo + TriggerTech Special on this barreled action it would bring your total cost to $1300 and put the weight of the rifle (without a scope) at 8.5 pounds. I don't know if that weight is acceptable to you but if it is I don't know if you're beating that as far as deals go.

SOLUS Barreled Short Action - 24" 6.5 Creedmoor, Fluted Sendero Light

Shop SOLUS Barreled Short Action - 24" 6.5 Creedmoor, Fluted Sendero Light and more at AeroPrecisionUSA.com!

www.aeroprecisionusa.com

I do not think "anything from 6mm or bigger is a true statement". At 400 yrds, 6.5cm can only keep 1,500 ft-lbs of energy, which is barely enough to kill an Elk. And shoot placement becomes very important if you want to use smaller caliber. If you shoot beyond 400yr, 6.5PRC or bigger calibers are ideal. "Elk caliber" does not equal to "the caliber that can kill elk" .

 

[Generations]

Have an elk hunt coming this year and I want to just run a factory rifle.
I first wanted to just get a TIKKA in 300WSM and call it good since I've had several the past
10 years and I already know it is more than sufficient to the job.
However, I've been wanting a nice wood stock rifle for a while and was considering one of the newer Win Mod 70's.
I can find them in 270 and 300wsm.
can anybody attest to the late model Winchesters consistency and accuracy? Ill likely hand load it since it won't be a rifle I shoot
year-round and I already have all the primers and powder I need. I'm not really interested in anything else, and the whole idea
started as keeping the cost below $1,500.

Tikka are hard to beat. I have a couple old model 70's. Live out west where elk are what we eat. Wife and I harvest a couple each year, either archery or rifle. Our families harvest another 8-12 depending on the year. I don't own any newer factory rifles, but can't imagine that for the practical distances of elk hunting, that any Ruger, Remington, Winchester, Savage etc won't be plenty accurate. Honestly, even a relatively poor 1.5 moa rifle is good enough at 300-400 yards on a elk. Its a matter of shot placement as always. Our family doesn't use anything larger than '06. 300 is reserved for moose, etc. For a fact, the family member who harvests the most, uses a 243 with 80 grainers. Short, nimble, and he's used it for over 30 years. Just depends on how far you "need" to shoot, and if you're shooting in Wyoming winds. I grew up on '06. 270 is probably "better".
I'd say pick the rifle that feels good to get behind somewhat quickly. And in a caliber where you don't think about the recoil right before pulling the trigger. People will laugh, but good old Remington pointed soft points are effective and affordable. We like the 168 psp.
Or, go with the Tikka 300. It'll do the job for sure, and is way more than is necessary. But, if you're used to that combo, you'll do better than starting over with a "new" rifle, caliber etc.
I'm betting the Winchester in 270 is all 90% of hunters would need.
Good luck on your hunt this fall.

 

[Generations]

that's the right answer (gun and caliber), worked for me a few years back when i got a small bull and large cow.

i will say though the first shot on the cow, 200yds, was a perfect hit but didn't seem to affect her. she and her buddy ran some 25-50yds. i couldn't even tell which one i hit but then finally the one started sputtering and i put another one in her for good measure. pretty much ditto for the bull at 400 yds. while i'm sure lots have had success with lesser, if not much lesser, calibers, if i get to go elk hunting again it will be with 300wsm or 7prc or the like.

i'd suggest not going with wood. the gun will get the crap beat out of it plus wood generally doesn't handle rain, snow etc as good.

good luck!!!!!!

Not poking fun, but I'd say your "perfect hit" on the cow was perfect. 25-50 yards means you hit where you should. It took time to bleed out. You didn't knock her down with a ruined shoulder shot. That can be nice for knowing the elk is down, but hard on meat. For me, your first shot is exactly what I try to get every time.
I have a neighbor who brings in hunters for cow hunts. One guy comes with a 375 h&h. He seldom has clean hits. And the meat is a mess due to bad placement. I really feel a flatter, softer round would allow him to shoot more "accurately". And I know of two elk he lost after smacking with that 375. So, again, its the round you can put where you need to, but with enough backing it up if you mess up and hit outside the vitals.

 

[tacoman69]

I do not think "anything from 6mm or bigger is a true statement". At 400 yrds, 6.5cm can only keep 1,500 ft-lbs of energy, which is barely enough to kill an Elk. And shoot placement becomes very important if you want to use smaller caliber. If you shoot beyond 400yr, 6.5PRC or bigger calibers are ideal. "Elk caliber" does not equal to "the caliber that can kill elk" .

Lol energy and foot pounds is pretty much meaningless. More fuddlore. The bullet you choose and the velocity it hits the animal is what matters. Learn how bullets kill. a 223 tmk will have a larger wound channel than a 30 cal mono wound channel bc of the bulllet not the caliber. 147 and 140 eldms are devasting on big game in 6.5 cm. We are in the golden age of bullet technology and those that don't have their heads stuck up their asses are taking advantage. And then saying shot placement is key so you should shoot a larger caliber?! Wtf? Flinching from anticipating muzzle blast is what causes the most misses. Nobody shoots a larger cartridge better. Plus you can't even spot your shots to even know you hit anything. Somebody posted a deer scapula and an elk scapula you should look at it again, theres no magic armor protecting an elks vitals lol

 

[tacoman69]

I'm far from mad junior, I just knew what you were right out of the gate. You never did give us your age, but we all know why. I just know bullshit when I smell it, and you wreak.

And you are dumb. It's not 1995. He just shared a sample size of 300 plus pages of big game kills with 223. You could learn something instead of spewing nonsense. Where is your sample size you were going to share with us? cAlL aN eLk gUiDE ok fudd

 

[tacoman69]

In some states, such as VA, it is illegal to kill even a whitetail with 223. I've killed elk with 6.5creed and 243. Those are both good. 223? No.

73 grain ELDM and 77 grain TMK are great bullets for deer. Your bullet choice matters not what cartridge it's shot out of. You think that deer is all of a sudden running off and gonna live bc it got shot with a .02 smaller diameter bullet?! Cmon man

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

And you are dumb. It's not 1995. He just shared a sample size of 300 plus pages of big game kills with 223. You could learn something instead of spewing nonsense. Where is your sample size you were going to share with us? cAlL aN eLk gUiDE ok fudd

Look, more elk cartridge advice from a guy in Hawaii. The largest terrestrial animal on your island chain is smaller than my dog. You've probably never seen an elk. You sound like a child. I don't need to learn anything about the terminal performance of a .223 from anyone. I've killed more animals with a rifle than you've seen, and what does 1995 have to do with anything?

 

[NateVA]

6.5cm can only keep 1,500 ft-lbs of energy, which is barely enough to kill an Elk.

Man I don't want to re-derail this thread but this just isn't how bullets work. Bullets need a minimum impact velocity to perform which is why the minimum velocity they publish doesn't change with the bullet weight. If it was energy dependent, the minimum velocity would change as the bullet weight changes.

What's the maximum range for acceptable terminal performance with ELD‑X bullets? - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

It depends on retained velocity and is therefore cartridge dependent. In general, the ELD-X bullets will provide reliable and effective terminal performance up to velocities of approximately 1,600 feet per second. Click here for more information on Hor...

www.hornady.com

Here's a video for illustration purposes (0:45 for shot, bullet has impact energy of probably ~960 ft/lbs at that range)



And other miscellaneous posts from SH. This guy seems to kill elk just fine below 1500 ft/lbs.

77 gr Sierra SMK’s deer hunting

Then don’t take a shot you shouldn’t. Bow hunters know this well. Guess everyone that bow hunts elk are idiots. You must have autism or something.

www.snipershide.com

We can make it into a checklist or something.

1. Can my choice of bullet penetrate as far as it needs to penetrate if I meet its minimum impact velocity?

• Since your example was 6.5CM let's go with a 147gr ELD-M which is good to go above a velocity of about 1600 fps.

2. Yes, it can penetrate far enough above that velocity to kill an elk. We know this from a lot of guys who have killed elk with that bullet (including me).

• There's a separate thread on Rokslide of 6.5CM for elk where guys post roughly the same stuff as they do for the .223 for elk. So our sample size is pretty good plus people have tested in organic ballistic gel too against other bullets like Barnes.

3. So we know it can do that and now we just need to figure out our max distance with that cartridge based on velocity.

4. It looks like with a MV of 2700 fps (I'd call that a reasonable MV) that bullet it still above 1700fps at 1000 yards unless I've managed to screw my ballistic calculator up.

• If we want to play it really safe and go for 2000 fps, we're good to 700 yards.

5. Alright so we're good to go for essentially any range you'd actually shoot an elk at. I'm not advocating for taking 1000 yard shots at animals, to be clear.

We can agree to disagree but I just wanted to be clear that it's a vibes-based disagreement and not a facts one. Energy is a nearly useless indicator of terminal performance for bullets.

 

[clark33]

I don’t want to get in a pissing match, this is just my personal experience. I have lived my whole 37 years out west, started big game hunting when I was 8, first deer at 10 with a 243 win. From there the train of thought was you must go larger, so I stepped up to a 280 rem in my early teens, then 300wsm in my early 20s. Now the largest I own is a 6.5prc in my late 30s. But I find myself grabbing my 6cm 99% of the time.

Bullet design and shot placement are king out here. I hunt with what I shoot the most and shoot the best.

 

[Holliday]

Dear God. Advocating hunting Elk with a .223 on the Hide. The First Seal of the Apocalypse, is broken……

Wyoming is CLOSED.

 

[NateVA]

Dear God. Advocating hunting Elk with a .223 on the Hide. The First Seal of the Apocalypse, is broken……

Wyoming is CLOSED.

I think advocating is a strong word. Some states have a legal minimum of 243 caliber anyway. It's more a lesson about people concentrating on cartridges when they should be concentrating on bullets. Either way I think this guy beat us to it by years on this forum.

223 for "big" game

yes i have done & seen Xs about 5 "ALL" the available on line research on this topic. i'm just asking for any new info or experiences with regard to it that someone may have seen,heard or done. by big game i pretty much mean southern whitetail and hogs. would include sheep,goats,small...

www.snipershide.com

 

[BlackRock601]

Man I don't want to re-derail this thread but this just isn't how bullets work. Bullets need a minimum impact velocity to perform which is why the minimum velocity they publish doesn't change with the bullet weight. If it was energy dependent, the minimum velocity would change as the bullet weight changes.

What's the maximum range for acceptable terminal performance with ELD‑X bullets? - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

It depends on retained velocity and is therefore cartridge dependent. In general, the ELD-X bullets will provide reliable and effective terminal performance up to velocities of approximately 1,600 feet per second. Click here for more information on Hor...

www.hornady.com

Here's a video for illustration purposes (0:45 for shot, bullet has impact energy of probably ~960 ft/lbs at that range)



And other miscellaneous posts from SH. This guy seems to kill elk just fine below 1500 ft/lbs.

77 gr Sierra SMK’s deer hunting

Then don’t take a shot you shouldn’t. Bow hunters know this well. Guess everyone that bow hunts elk are idiots. You must have autism or something.

www.snipershide.com

We can make it into a checklist or something.

1. Can my choice of bullet penetrate as far as it needs to penetrate if I meet its minimum impact velocity?

• Since your example was 6.5CM let's go with a 147gr ELD-M which is good to go above a velocity of about 1600 fps.

2. Yes, it can penetrate far enough above that velocity to kill an elk. We know this from a lot of guys who have killed elk with that bullet (including me).

• There's a separate thread on Rokslide of 6.5CM for elk where guys post roughly the same stuff as they do for the .223 for elk. So our sample size is pretty good plus people have tested in organic ballistic gel too against other bullets like Barnes.

3. So we know it can do that and now we just need to figure out our max distance with that cartridge based on velocity.

4. It looks like with a MV of 2700 fps (I'd call that a reasonable MV) that bullet it still above 1700fps at 1000 yards unless I've managed to screw my ballistic calculator up.

• If we want to play it really safe and go for 2000 fps, we're good to 700 yards.

5. Alright so we're good to go for essentially any range you'd actually shoot an elk at. I'm not advocating for taking 1000 yard shots at animals, to be clear.

We can agree to disagree but I just wanted to be clear that it's a vibes-based disagreement and not a facts one. Energy is a nearly useless indicator of terminal performance for bullets.

I do not want to waste more time on the argument that runs into a dead end so this is my last response:

It seems that your argument is mainly based on the fact you saw people posting pictures of killing elk with 223. I saw a guy killed a whitetail with a rock. And If you can get close enough, with proper shot placement you could kill a Cape Buffalo with a .22LR. That does not mean 22LR is a buffalo caliber or rocks are good for killing deer. 223 could kill an Elk in close range and hit the right place. But please do not suggest people to use 223 or “anything above 6cm is good” for Elk hunting---it is simply so misleading.

BTW, have you ever killed an elk with 223? If you are a believer, why don’t you try it by yourself?

 

[NateVA]

It seems that your argument is mainly based on the fact you saw people posting pictures of killing elk with 223.

My "argument" is that people who obsess over cartridges are for the most part paying attention to the wrong things when it comes to how bullets kill animals. Why did it work for those .223 guys? Do bullets work differently for them than they do for other people? Is it a giant conspiracy of dozens of guys pathologically lying and fabricating picture evidence? I just don't know where you're going with this.

But please do not suggest people to use 223 or “anything above 6cm is good” for Elk hunting---it is simply so misleading.

People treat this like some unknowable/eternal debate. A bullet has to be able to penetrate about 19" to make it through the skin, muscle, and vitals of an elk. And 4" more if you want an exit wound. Can a 6mm projectile like a 108gr ELD-M do that or not? If so, down to what impact velocity? These questions have answers they're not something we can never settle. So why is it misleading?

BTW, have you ever killed an elk with 223? If you are a believer, why don’t you try it by yourself?

I've killed two with a 6.5CM and one with a 300WM. Got a better wound channel from the 6.5CM because I was using better bullets (147gr ELD-M vs Barnes TTSX 180gr). I don't own a .223 and don't have an interest in building one just to prove a point to someone who is just going to say I made it up anyway (like you seem to think for the other .223 posters).

I don't really get the visceral emotional reaction to this topic. I've been assigned the homework of calling guides and building a .223 rifle because I pointed out that people are already doing this and posting pictures/videos. All while advocating for calibers that aren't .223 anyway.

 

[moosemeat]

Had a 2005ish m70 Featherweight in 300wsm. Lovely rifle. Never shot a group bigger than 1.5moa. Cycled smooth. Trigger was meh. 165 TTSX over h4350 was a hammer. The elk hunter who bought it loves it.

 

[sloporsche]

Well, I should be hunting elk this fall in wyoming, and I'll be leaving my .223, my 6 and 6.5cm and my pellet rifle at home, because if I'm standing there on my last day, and the only shot I have is quartering to at 750y, I'll have my 300 wsm shooting 200gr eld-x through that shoulder.

You guys can shoot them with a .204 ruger if you want to. I don't even like a .223 for coyotes. I've seen way too many coyotes soak up 2 or 3 rounds of .223 and some of them were never seen again, and some ran a half mile or more. Damn if I'm gambling my elk season on a varmint cartridge, nor would I suggest that to anyone else. I guarantee these ".223 elk boys" aren't telling you the stories about the ones they never recover.

well said

 

[USNavy06]

Have an elk hunt coming this year and I want to just run a factory rifle.
I first wanted to just get a TIKKA in 300WSM and call it good since I've had several the past
10 years and I already know it is more than sufficient to the job.
However, I've been wanting a nice wood stock rifle for a while and was considering one of the newer Win Mod 70's.
I can find them in 270 and 300wsm.
can anybody attest to the late model Winchesters consistency and accuracy? Ill likely hand load it since it won't be a rifle I shoot
year-round and I already have all the primers and powder I need. I'm not really interested in anything else, and the whole idea
started as keeping the cost below $1,500.

The new model 70’s are great rifles. I have had a few and still own one in 300 win mag. I wouldn’t hesitate at all with one of the new model 70’s.

I like how you state you are not interested in anything else and you get all these other recommendations lol.

 

[dino67]

Have an elk hunt coming this year and I want to just run a factory rifle.
I first wanted to just get a TIKKA in 300WSM and call it good since I've had several the past
10 years and I already know it is more than sufficient to the job.
However, I've been wanting a nice wood stock rifle for a while and was considering one of the newer Win Mod 70's.
I can find them in 270 and 300wsm.
can anybody attest to the late model Winchesters consistency and accuracy? Ill likely hand load it since it won't be a rifle I shoot
year-round and I already have all the primers and powder I need. I'm not really interested in anything else, and the whole idea
started as keeping the cost below $1,500.

Tikka T3X Forest?

Choose your own Tikka rifle from a variety of innovative models

Tikka is able to meet the requirements of modern hunters by combining traditional gunsmith know-how with advanced technology. Choose your own Tikka rifle now!

choose.tikka.fi

 

[Forrest84]

Ok fuck it, let’s say I decide to hike my 17# 6creed out there with me. Then what? What would/how should I load for it? Bullit, velocity, max effective rang to limit myself to for a high probability for an ethical kill. Should I go for a lung shot or a high shoulder shot etc?…

Maybe in another 71 posts I’ll find 3 relevant responses but what the hell I’ll be back in 24 hours to see.

 

[NateVA]

Ok fuck it, let’s say I decide to hike my 17# 6creed out there with me.

That information would have been cool to have before now.

Then what? What would/how should I load for it? Bullit, velocity, max effective rang to limit myself to for a high probability for an ethical kill.

This question still applies to any cartridge you choose. You still have to pick the right bullet and figure that stuff out. Choosing a larger cartridge doesn't absolve you of that. Luckily you asked this question on a non-hunting forum so everyone can parrot old magazine articles at you instead of making you actually consider this stuff.

Maybe in another 71 posts I’ll find 3 relevant responses but what the hell I’ll be back in 24 hours to see.

Alright I'll give you what you want. Ignore my previous post about my M70, which is chambered in 7mm Rem Mag by the way.

The Model 70 in 300WSM will be perfect for what you want to do. Controlled-round feed is what people rely on while in Africa hunting dangerous game and there's a reason for that. And a wood stock will give it that classic American hunting rifle feel. Using a 300WSM with a good monolithic bullet (to penetrate through the elk's armor) will definitely give you an exit hole for tracking purposes. You'll be able to take shots from angles that people would consider unethical. And with so much ft/lbs energy, you'll definitely have enough Knockdown-Power™ to kill one. You won't have to worry about the bullets going below 1500 ft/lbs of energy and bouncing off of the animal. Plus if you used a 6.5CM you'd have to figure out what to do with your manbun and flatbrim hat! Just make sure not to bring any sissy sticks (trekking poles). Now that that's settled, let's watch some Ron Spomer...

 

[HMRamateur]

Ok fuck it, let’s say I decide to hike my 17# 6creed out there with me. Then what? What would/how should I load for it? Bullit, velocity, max effective rang to limit myself to for a high probability for an ethical kill. Should I go for a lung shot or a high shoulder shot etc?…

Maybe in another 71 posts I’ll find 3 relevant responses but what the hell I’ll be back in 24 hours to see.

You should try the 135 LR hybrid. 25 creed will give you a bit more energy on target while still having low recoil and easy to shoot.

 

[NateVA]

You should try the 135 LR hybrid. 25 creed will give you a bit more energy on target while still having low recoil and easy to shoot.

So you want him to start taking estrogen pills, huh? You want him to just load up a slingshot and use that? Does Winchester even make a 25 Creed? So you want him using a push feed action, accidentally short stroke the bolt and double feed, and get gored to death by the elk? How is he supposed to humanely kill an elk at a difficult angle like shooting it through the back leg all the way to the chest cavity when it's quartering away?

 

[xsn10s]

My brother hunted with Winchester Model 70's of various cartridge for pig up through elk. And he was happy with his rifles. but to standardize he switched all to Tikka T3's. They have wooden stock versions of Tikka's (Hunter). I didn't see a 300 wsm cartridge in hte line up but they had ones in 300 WM and .223 1-8" twist . I've followed the RS thread and find their results impressive. The wound channel from the 77gr TMK reminds me of the terminal performance of my 30-06 with controlled expansion bullets. But with one difference, the exit hole was consistently larger with my 30-06 than what I saw on the RS thread. So if I was in the woods elk hunting with 0-300 yard shots I'd take my Win M70 FWT 30-06. Out here in Eastern Oregon open desert or mountain where a 600-700 yard shot is all I'll get I'll use my Remington ADL 7mm RM in a KRG Bravo chassis.

 

[Forrest84]

Had a 2005ish m70 Featherweight in 300wsm. Lovely rifle. Never shot a group bigger than 1.5moa. Cycled smooth. Trigger was meh. 165 TTSX over h4350 was a hammer. The elk hunter who bought it loves it.

Thank you for your answer that actually relates to my core question to begin with.
I’ve been reading on the inter-webs that “they” whoever they are say the factory model 70’s average 1.5 to 2 MOA out of the box with factory ammo so I merely wanted to dig at that a little more to help come to the conclusion as th weather it is even worth the trouble to chase that.

 

[Fig]

My Inuvialuit buddy up in Tuktoyaktuk is probably the #1 guide in Canada for Polar Bears since he took over the guiding service from his dad in the 1980s. He has killed dozens and dozens of bears and guided for hundreds (maybe thousands) over the last 40 years. He carries a .270. On more than one occasion he has had clients get angry that he's backing them up with a smaller gun when they're coming with Dangerous African Game rifles.

His normal response is, "How many Bears have you killed, eh?". One lawyer from New Orleans pitched a huge fit, and said he wanted to be taken back to town (It's a two day trip out on the ice to the hunting grounds, half on Skidoos, and half on dog sleds) when he saw what Jacob carried on his hunts. He went back to his tent, cooled off, and later apologized. At the end of that hunt (he shot a big bear) he actually made a gift of the H&H double rifle he brought. Jacob put it in his gun case, where it still sits, and still carries his .270. He laughs and says his ancestors hunted them with bone spears.

Where you shoot the animal is more important that what you shoot it with. You should hunt with the rifle you are most confident of getting precise hits with, IMHO. Bigger is only better if the level of accuracy is equivalent.

​

 

[sloporsche]

My Inuvialuit buddy up in Tuktoyaktuk is probably the #1 guide in Canada for Polar Bears since he took over the guiding service from his dad in the 1980s. He has killed dozens and dozens of bears and guided for hundreds (maybe thousands) over the last 40 years. He carries a .270. On more than one occasion he has had clients get angry that he's backing them up with a smaller gun when they're coming with Dangerous African Game rifles.

His normal response is, "How many Bears have you killed, eh?". One lawyer from New Orleans pitched a huge fit, and said he wanted to be taken back to town (It's a two day trip out on the ice to the hunting grounds, half on Skidoos, and half on dog sleds) when he saw what Jacob carried on his hunts. He went back to his tent, cooled off, and later apologized. At the end of that hunt (he shot a big bear) he actually made a gift of the H&H double rifle he brought. Jacob put it in his gun case, where it still sits, and still carries his .270. He laughs and says his ancestors hunted them with bone spears.

Where you shoot the animal is more important that what you shoot it with. You should hunt with the rifle you are most confident of getting precise hits with, IMHO. Bigger is only better if the level of accuracy is equivalent.

​

quite a tale

 

[Turkeytider]

I think it`s wise not to conflate CAN you do something with SHOULD you do something. I CAN kill anything in North America with a .223. Does that mean I SHOULD deliberately hunt anything in North America with one? I personally would not want to have to depend on perfect shot placement. I would want to be able ( or at least have a better chance ) of taking down an animal ethically when things AREN`T perfect. As much as I like my .223s, I don`t think that they are the best caliber to give me an optimal chance to do that.

 

[Im2bent]

That's why you should hunt with a 3006, you hit that sucker in the tail (the tail not the ass) and the shock wave will blow it's lungs out of it's frickin mouth......or is that the 9mm?

 

[NateVA]

That's why you should hunt with a 3006, you hit that sucker in the tail (the tail not the ass) and the shock wave will blow it's lungs out of it's frickin mouth......or is that the 9mm?

Need a 300 Remchesterby Shitkicking Magnum for all of the bad shots I'm going to take. I'll be using God's gift to America too, the Remington Core-Lokt.

 

[2c1fr]

me I like the 6.5 PRC, I think a model 70 is a safe bet get one in whatever cartridge you like and enjoy it

 

[stello1001]

Model 70s are tits...

 

[Turkeytider]

Model 70s are tits...

What?

 

[moosemeat]

Thank you for your answer that actually relates to my core question to begin with.
I’ve been reading on the inter-webs that “they” whoever they are say the factory model 70’s average 1.5 to 2 MOA out of the box with factory ammo so I merely wanted to dig at that a little more to help come to the conclusion as th weather it is even worth the trouble to chase that.

With my hand loads I could get 3 round groups under a inch as the norm. That's all I expect out of a 8.5lbs rifle with a barrel that thin. Recoil was tolerable. Fit and finish was good. I want another but in something a little more.... unique. 7x57. 284. 6.5x55.

 

[sloporsche]

What?

the term usually means it is good

 

[Chickentoast]

Pants / cartridge / powder / projectile / buttplug

 

[Turkeytider]

the term usually means it is good

Thanks. Too old to be up on the 20 or 30 something hip slang.

 

[Turkeytider]

Need a 300 Remchesterby Shitkicking Magnum for all of the bad shots I'm going to take. I'll be using God's gift to America too, the Remington Core-Lokt.

Here`s hoping nobody takes a " bad " shot deliberately. Real world ( at least mine has ! ) dictates that there will be less than optimal ones, though. Those live things have the pesky habit of moving at exactly the wrong time, don`t they?

 

[Forrest84]

With my hand loads I could get 3 round groups under a inch as the norm. That's all I expect out of a 8.5lbs rifle with a barrel that thin. Recoil was tolerable. Fit and finish was good. I want another but in something a little more.... unique. 7x57. 284. 6.5x55.

this is the kind of response i was trying to illicit. Ive been trying to figure out what the accuracy limitations of them are for instance, do they improve considerably if you have them re bedded etc..

 

[Forrest84]

Tikka T3X Forest?

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The wood stock deal really just extended to the model 70 as i think they are very nice looking rifles and if i get a Tikka id just get a stainless T3X and skip the wood for one of their plastic stocks.

 

[NateVA]

Here`s hoping nobody takes a " bad " shot deliberately. Real world ( at least mine has ! ) dictates that there will be less than optimal ones, though. Those live things have the pesky habit of moving at exactly the wrong time, don`t they?

I can't think of a shot angle that I'd take with my 300WM or 7RM that I wouldn't take with a 6CM. I'd like to hear from you or others what kind of shots you think a magnum allows you to take that a 6CM can't do though. Or even how much bigger you think the temporary/permanent wound channels are between a good bullet from 6CM / 300WSM.

Do you want the ability to (when it's quartering away hard) shoot it through the back leg and have the bullet hopefully travel lengthwise through it into the chest cavity? Because that's about the only shot I can think of that would maybe differentiate the two. Even then if there's a lot of grass in its stomach, the bullet can stop there. I've pulled a Barnes TTSX out of a cow elk's grass-filled stomach that someone I was hunting with shot with a .30-06. A larger caliber/cartridge shouldn't mean you can just shoot at any fur you see.

And if this about a belief that a 108gr ELD-M or really any of the bullets we've talked about won't make it through a big ol' elk shoulder... Elk shoulders are wider and longer than a deer's, but only about 0.1" thicker. So the difference to a bullet is negligible. We're not shooting at 600 pounds versus 200 pounds, we're shooting at a cross-section of the animal and the difference is about 6-9" between an elk and a deer depending on whether you really want an exit hole.

 

[Turkeytider]

I can't think of a shot angle that I'd take with my 300WM or 7RM that I wouldn't take with a 6CM. I'd like to hear from you or others what kind of shots you think a magnum allows you to take that a 6CM can't do though. Or even how much bigger you think the temporary/permanent wound channels are between a good bullet from 6CM / 300WSM.

Do you want the ability to (when it's quartering away hard) shoot it through the back leg and have the bullet hopefully travel lengthwise through it into the chest cavity? Because that's about the only shot I can think of that would maybe differentiate the two. Even then if there's a lot of grass in its stomach, the bullet can stop there. I've pulled a Barnes TTSX out of a cow elk's grass-filled stomach that someone I was hunting with shot with a .30-06. A larger caliber/cartridge shouldn't mean you can just shoot at any fur you see.

And if this about a belief that a 108gr ELD-M or really any of the bullets we've talked about won't make it through a big ol' elk shoulder... Elk shoulders are wider and longer than a deer's, but only about 0.1" thicker. So the difference to a bullet is negligible. We're not shooting at 600 pounds versus 200 pounds, we're shooting at a cross-section of the animal and the difference is about 6-9" between an elk and a deer depending on whether you really want an exit hole.

My comment concerning " bad shots " was intended as a general one. In my mind you might apply it to anything from a .22 LR to 155 self propelled gun. Maybe someone else can comment on what might be a bad " shot angle " for a 6CM, particularly vis a vis a 300 WM or 7RM. As for me, I wouldn`t have the faintest idea. I`ll go out on a limb, though, and say that there are probably shots that wouldn`t be optimal for a 6CM Whether that same shot could be better executed by another caliber bullet or not at all? I don`t know.

 

[2c1fr]

I just can’t see using something smaller than a 6.5 Creedmoor as ethical on elk I’m not the ethical police so I won’t speak to as what others do I will say I don’t agree with it

 

[Turkeytider]

I just can’t see using something smaller than a 6.5 Creedmoor as ethical on elk I’m not the ethical police so I won’t speak to as what others do I will say I don’t agree with it

JMHO, but if one is striving to optimize the chances of a DRT shot, I agree.

 

[sloporsche]

I just can’t see using something smaller than a 6.5 Creedmoor as ethical on elk I’m not the ethical police so I won’t speak to as what others do I will say I don’t agree with it

I believe the non magnums do not require a man card to posses /purchase ..... or so i have heard . lol

 

[Fig]

IMO if you gut shoot or graze any ungulate with a magnum it will runtoff just like if you hit it with a .243. For me, Magnums pushing big, heavy VLDs gives me more range and the wind resistance to confidently take longer (more possible) shots delivering the same energy (at longer distances) to the same vital areas that will put them down. Terminal ballistics superiority is not why I would carry a magnum. It would be to give me more opportunities for a shot. Pretty much if I can see the elk without binos (it's amazing how they can blend in at a distance) I can shoot it with a .300WM, but I still have to put it in the boiler room (or neck).

Believing that a larger caliber is somehow more ethical or more humane is not supported by the physics. The question isn't whether more energy and a larger wound channel is "better". It is. The question is does it really make that much difference. My experience is that it doesn't. Shooting the animal in a vital area so that it expires quickly actually matters. In fact, believing that magnums make you more ethical will likely lead to taking bad shots in non-vital areas believing that magically your big medicine will overcome physics. It won't. I've seen plenty of deer DRT with a .223 through the heart, and seen them run off on a bad hit with a .300WM, so asking what matters is kind of moot. The only ethical answer is to shoot your most precise rifle that will give you the most confidence of hitting heart/lung or CNS. Big enough to penetrate to vitals is big enough.

I've killed quite a few with my Malory Archer .357. Is killing them with a pistol caliber not ethical?

No old school laser on mine, just a GP100 with an old Leupold pistol scope. Bunch of does taken from 30-50 yards with it. Furthest track was probably 50 yards. If you're close it's plenty of medicine.

 

[clark33]

First hand experience, the 108eldm has liquified lungs on multiple mule deer out to 600yds, but so has the 147eldm. I wouldn’t hesitate to use either but magnums are cool too. Do what ya feel.

My actual worst experience was with a 185berger in 300wsm at 510yds. Penciled straight through the lungs. The buck took off sprinting straight at me and died about 250yds from me, that was on a big bodied WY muley.