To Each Their Own for me to Kill an Elk with a .357 magnum doesn’t seem ethical, deer sure but that’s a whole different critter in Closing it’s not what I Would Do while I Don’t think You Should I haven’t/Won’t tell you/anyone not to…….
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looking for new hunting rifle for large western game
- Thread starter Forrest84
- Start date
Sweet baby Jebus the dude asked about a rifle. You all have decided that you need to vomit your opinion on everything from 223 for elk to sharp xxxxxx sticks.
Elk can be killed by arrows. He even stated what caliber he wants to use cause he has primers and powder for it.
Elk can be killed by arrows. He even stated what caliber he wants to use cause he has primers and powder for it.
All in bullet selection and placement. Not an Elk, but on my first ever Muley hunt, after slipping on ice and falling in rocks on top of my .270, I dropped a mule deer in its track's with my coyote gun 6 Creed, 16.5' barrel, suppressed, with Hornady 103 eldx's (handholds) at 350+ yd's. Guides were doing high five's and saying they thought they would be tracking all night. Shot through both shoulders. Don't recall velocity but It was also a very low velocity node, 41.1 gn H 4350. I had two guides because one's hunter had left that morning. Afterwards found out my guide shot a .204 as a backup gun for everything including Elk and the other one a .243
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I've done some guiding myself and most of the Sportsmen ar so scared of their .??? Magnum that they can't hit shit.
People, especially eastern hunters, have a really interesting outlook on hunting guides. A guide's main job is knowing the local terrain and where/how to find animals in it. And the demographic of hunters they deal with aren't exactly the best at shooting.
This thread makes me wonder how many animals people have seen shot with expanding lead bullets.. any I’ve ever seen from 243 to 300 WM leave wounds that are more than adequate to wreck an elk.
fyi if you are going to get a tikka, check out grabagun.com and their price quote. just bought a lefty tikka t3x lite in 7rm to scavenge the action for a 6.5 prc build (proof carbon barrel and pure precision altitude stock). $810, 10 ship. jaoutdoors is selling the same action only for $875. the lite's aren't threaded for cans or brakes, but the veil and roughtech models are.
Aero Precision Solus Hunter
If a .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor would fill the bill then this is a pretty good deal and I think you can get an additional 10% off of this price with the promo code they are running.
I am in no way shape or form associated with Aero Precision or Midway USA just figured I would pass along a good deal.
If a .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor would fill the bill then this is a pretty good deal and I think you can get an additional 10% off of this price with the promo code they are running.
I am in no way shape or form associated with Aero Precision or Midway USA just figured I would pass along a good deal.
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I haven’t shot the new 70’s since they came back into production, but the older ones are great. I wouldn’t expect the accuracy of a seekins, but they easily hold minute of animal. The best I’ve ever seen out of the 7 I’ve owned was a legit 1/2 minute gun, the average is more 3/4-1 minute. I hear the Portugal made ones are more accurate.
Caliber wise, any of what you’re looking at should work. No elk but black bears, caribou, moose, bison, and deer, I’ve shot with 270 WSM, 30’06, 7mm rem mag, 6.5 creed, 300 WSM. My current hunting stick is a semi custom tikka in 300 WSM, long throated to put the bullet where it should be. I really like the WSM cartridges. If you go 300 WSM, load 200 gr eldx at 2800-2850, kills like a light switch.
Barrel length, powder, weight, and throat depth, who has the reamer? Or was the Tikka stock?
Sound'd like exactly what I want.
I need details!!
Bartlein cf 20”, Mesa (now pure) precision altitude, mountain tactical tikka everything. With a zeiss v4 in nightforce UL rings and my ultra 5 can, it weighs 8lb 13oz unloaded with mountain tac’s 5 round mag.
Not sure on the throat depth, kinport peak rifles in ID built it. After a couple phone conversations of what I wanted, I made a dummy case with where I wanted the bullet at and he throated it for that. I just seated a 200 eldx a thou or 2 ahead of the neck/shoulder junction and went with that. It’s my second 300 WSM and have a couple loads for it. RL26 in a 24” proof cf gets 2860. The new rig is running 2800 with h1000, but it’s only at 56 rounds so far. We’ll see where speed lands as it speeds up, It’s quickly turning into my favorite hunting rifle.
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Thank you!! That is the info I needed. I have been hearing from different people about running in long action or hand feeding. One more question. What is COAL with 200 ELDX?
It’s around 3.14ish, sorry don’t have the exact data handy right now. Definitely want to run it in a long or medium action. I went with the tikka mostly because I had it, it’s a medium action just run long action bolt stop. Also, they’re about as light as it gets without going ti.
I don’t mind single feeding on a dedicated long range rig, but I’d never do it with a hunting rifle.
I'm a big fan of the M70 Classic actions. But if you're going to buy another rifle, why get the same caliber?
What we've learned about cartridge design and long range shooting over the past decade would make me strongly consider getting a 6.8 Western. I think it's the ultimate long range big game hunting cartridge and would choose it for all North American deer and elk (overkill for eastern whitetails IMO), and African plains game as part of a 2-rifle battery (the other being a .375 H&H).
A M70 Super Grade is a very beautiful rifle... I own several of them.
What we've learned about cartridge design and long range shooting over the past decade would make me strongly consider getting a 6.8 Western. I think it's the ultimate long range big game hunting cartridge and would choose it for all North American deer and elk (overkill for eastern whitetails IMO), and African plains game as part of a 2-rifle battery (the other being a .375 H&H).
A M70 Super Grade is a very beautiful rifle... I own several of them.
I’m running a very similar setup on my wsm. Except 22” barrel and 212 eld-x and I get 2760 with ADG brass and H100v. I also have some Win brass that likes h4831sc. C6 custom throated it for me with 212s and I’m running a similar coal.
Ron Spomer is that you?
What does the 6.8 Western offer that the 6.5 prc doesn't? Beside limited bullet selection, single source brass, and limited rifle availability.
It shoots heavier bullets at the same velocity as the 6.5 PRC, kicks less than the 7 or 300 PRC, puts sufficient energy for big game out to at least 800 yards. And shoots as flat or flatter. It's really a well-designed cartridge. I'd choose a 6 GT for PRS and 6.8 Western as an all-around long range hunting cartridge. Both work in short actions. Re bullet choices, I don't need a lot of choices, I need enough choices.
The 6.8 Western is what the WSMs should have been. What's the point in having a Magnum cartridge that can't handle high BC bullets?
I’m working on it. I’m probably going to have my buddy order me a T3X laminated stainless rifle not sure on caliber just yet. I think I will get a M70 super grade later next year in a 6 creed for my Texas hunting.
Read section 4. The whole kinetic energy is old fuddlore.
Ohhhhh get a '06. I have a t3x Lam and like it lots. It's in 308. Bad shoulder stops me from anything that kicks harder. Since all the Tikka actions are long you may as well get the longer 06 and get couple hundred foot pounds more energy.
So by your logic anyone hunting with something bigger than a creedmore is an idiot?
No, this was in response to people saying anything less than a pick your magnum was unethical. Projectiles and placement are what matter, not ft/lb energy. But as I've stated before, shoot what you like
No need for the new fancy cartridges, unless ya want one of them.
The old 30-06, 300WM, or 270 will all work, well, with ammo available in most elk camps.. in case you forgot your ammo at home, or lost it somewhere, out there.
I personally used the 7mm mag at first, but later went to the 338 WM for everything, as my personal choice, a better tool, for my style of hunting.
The old 30-06, 300WM, or 270 will all work, well, with ammo available in most elk camps.. in case you forgot your ammo at home, or lost it somewhere, out there.
I personally used the 7mm mag at first, but later went to the 338 WM for everything, as my personal choice, a better tool, for my style of hunting.
Holy F*ck, only 2 people in this thread can read?
Somebody please show me where the cartridge question was asked…
OP Winchester Model 70s are great rifles but no guarantees that factory ammo is going to shoot amazingly well. It seems you’re already planning to reload so it shouldn’t be much trouble to get it shooting well.
ETA: Ok, I finally made it thru all 3 pages of this vomit fest and there are at least 8 of you that can read. Congratulations!
Somebody please show me where the cartridge question was asked…
OP Winchester Model 70s are great rifles but no guarantees that factory ammo is going to shoot amazingly well. It seems you’re already planning to reload so it shouldn’t be much trouble to get it shooting well.
ETA: Ok, I finally made it thru all 3 pages of this vomit fest and there are at least 8 of you that can read. Congratulations!
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thanks for the response, I'm going to get a mod 70 sooner or later regardless of this year's hunt. I grew up hunting with my pops with a beautifule Mod 70 257 roberts that was a phenomenal rifle that ive been feeling nostalgic over since he past a couple years ago and have wanted to get another one since then. the more i think about it i think i really want to just do a 6 creed in one for hunting at home.
I think you misunderstand the document. Kinetic energy is what causes tissue displacement... more energy, more displacement. That is why a 40gr Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a .220 Swift is a lot more explosive on a prairie dog than the same projectile fired from a .22 Hornet and traveling 1,200 ft/sec slower. Kinetic energy matters when it exceeds the elastic strength of the tissue it's fired into... again the difference in a headshot on a deer with a .22 LR and the .220 Swift is significant because in the latter case it exceeds the strength of the deer's skull to contain it and blows the skull apart while a .22 often doesn't exit. Similarly, something like a 6.8 Western with long VLD bullets that retain velocity and energy at longer ranges also retain more kinetic energy and the ability to create more tissue damage. Lung tissue is not elastically resilient, as anyone who has shot a deer through the lungs at close range with a high velocity centerfire hunting cartridge knows. For instance, I shot a 130 lb 18-month whitetail forkhorn broadside at 40 yards through the lungs and heart, using a .30-'06 150gr Remington factory Corelokt cartridge with a muzzle velocity of over 2950 ft/sec, passing completely through the chest cavity and blowing a silver dollar-sized hole out. While the heart had a good tear, it was substantially intact, as you'd expect from highly elastic muscle tissue. Both lungs were reduced to a liquid pulp with no structural integrity, like jello through a shredder. The deer ran about 25 yards, then collapsed and died, from blood loss and consequent lack of oxygen to the brain. A deer struck in the same spot by, say, a .38 Special 158gr HP bullet at 900 ft/sec would have mostly intact lungs, less heart damage, and the bullet likely wouldn't exit, and chances are it'd run a lot further before succumbing to blood loss.
Similarly, I had a roommate in college who drove an ice cream truck in New Orleans (this is back in 1980). He was robbed at gunpoint, complied, but remarked to the robber, "That's not a real gun, is it?" and was shot in response. The bullet, out of a .22 LR revolver, struck him through the chest, passed through his lung, and lodged in the muscle around his shoulder blade. My roommate jumped out of the truck and took off running down the street, collapsing a block away due to his inability to catch his breath (his lung collapsed). He made it to the hospital, went through surgery to fix his lung and remove the debris dragged inside him by the bullet, and the bullet was extracted. He was out of the hospital in less than a week. What do you think the outcome would have been if he had been shot with a 40gr .22 Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a .223, or a .220 Swift, in the identical spot? I think he would have dropped on the spot and died very shortly thereafter. The difference is, kinetic energy and the resultant difference in trauma.
That's why, for long range deer and elk hunting (beyond 500 yards), I'd choose the 6.8 Western over a .270 or 6.5 Creedmoor or PRC. YMMV. I actually have a 338 Win Mag that I use for elk, but it's a heavy rifle... not bad to shoot, but it takes me a couple of days of lugging it up and down the mountain to get used to it. I wouldn't mind something lighter but with less felt recoil and a flatter trajectory.
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No, I think my reading comprehension is pretty good. Fascinating story though
There are plenty of wood stock rifles in the second hand market that are well over 50 years old and quite a few nearing 100 all in excellent working order.
Up until I think the 70s, ALL target and match rifles were wood-stocked.
You have provided nothing but empty theories and anecdotes.
So you have told us nothing.
Seriously though, while SH does indeed have the potential to render excellent feedback and information, it also seems to have a pronounced tendency to wander off into the ether, moreso than some other sites I`ve seen.
In today's manufacturing market, any known quality differences in wood stocks between current brands?
It's well meaning for the most part. If someone started up a thread asking which .338LM they should buy for 1000 yard shooting (when they already may have other rifles) I would hope that people would point out that it's not necessary for that range. On this particular topic, Rokslide would have been a much better resource since it's a bunch of people who actually hunt out west. Instead of some vocal people who read a magazine article by Ron Spomer. This forum is primarily a shooting forum with some people who hunt on the side. That's just very different from guys whose primary hobby is western hunting.
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I live and hunt out west. I got to hunt here when it was still free and open. Hunters were dispersed because access to public land was much better. Harvesting deer and elk was more kin to picking apples for the winter. Seen a lot of elk DRT with a 243.
But the OP didn't ask about any of that. He asked specifically about two rifles and said he had chosen a caliber.
270 though. Sheeesh who wants that Ole fuddy duddy cartridge.
But the OP didn't ask about any of that. He asked specifically about two rifles and said he had chosen a caliber.
270 though. Sheeesh who wants that Ole fuddy duddy cartridge.
Very good observations. Based on the threads on Rokslide, it`s beginning to look like everybody is looking at switching to shooting everything this side of a blue whale with a .223 and 77 grain TMK ! I really didn`t realize and appreciate that my Savage 110 Storm in .223 with a 7 twist was such a formidable big game rifle ! Who knew!
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So you want me to quote the article? The section that is titled “
4. Presumption of "Kinetic Energy Deposit" to Be a Mechanism of Wounding:….
the entire section is research suggesting projectile design/composition is the leading indicator of tissue damage…. Not kinectic energy. I don’t know what else you want for me sir.Keep in mind legal minimums for the species where you're hunting. I believe it's normally 6mm if there is a legal minimum for elk, which varies by state. So an ideal all-around US hunting cartridge would be a 6CM shooting 108/109 ELD-Ms. The external ballistics will be pretty similar to a 300WM too which is nice.
Either way the information provided by actual hunters doing real things with those cartridges is educational, whether it convinces someone or not. Being more informed is good.
In my limited experience 178 eld-m fail to expand at all at 2650fps impact velocity on deer and react identical to fmj. Eld-x atleast blew apart and the core produced a exit wound.
Model 70 is THE rifleman's rifle. Nothing better for an old school rifle that gets the job done. It does seem aftermarket interest is waning more and more so what you get, no upgrades unless you want to do them yourself. Good luck, I love the Winchester rifles. I'm sure much of it is nostalgia but they feel good in the hand and have always been solid performers for me.
So, you are claiming that the difference in damage between a .22 caliber 40 gr bullet at 1000 ft/sec is not substantially different than the same bullet traveling at 4000 ft/sec? Because the bullet itself is the primary contributor to damage, not velocity above a current level? You really believe that?
