Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

[tip2oo3]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">imho and with a possible few exceptions yes thats what i was implying. sorry if i made yer nethers twitch. </div></div>

Negative, just wanted clarification, you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree and fortunately for LE so does our government.

And as far as the "shout box" comments on
being so called offended, my thin skin can't handle opposing ideas, I also have my feelings hurt when people call me "pig" or "meter-maid". Now where is the smiley face for sarcasm....?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

i for the most part agree with Marduk on this one. I am not nor have I ever been LE but I have been in contact while deployed a time or two and hell our rifles dont even have full auto, we got 3 round burst. Semi rifles in competent hands work splendidly. Now I suppose an argument may be "but you have SAW's and 240's in yer squad" well ask any 240 gunner how effective that is clearing a house. I know this isnt a FA Vs SA debate but it does tie into which system would work best and which to suggest.

I generally dont see any reason or call a LE agency would need full auto spraying power, just my opinion

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Well, my Dept decided on f/a carbines. That's about it. I'm not trying to start a fight but isn't that like asking why civilians can have f/a weapons? You get a lot of different answers and some people agree and some disagree. I'm still a new guy and I'm just looking for help from people who know more than I do or who can offer ideas that I did not consider. Suggest everything, I would rather hear something 10x than hear nothing at all. PS we don't spray. We are responsible for every round we fire.

 

[LSUbeatUby40]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We sell 11.5" SR-16's to LE

Personally I would not go shorter than 11.5" for 5.56mm guns. 10.3" would be the very min of what I beleive is useful or acceptable.

Colt, LMT, DD, BCM all make good guns as well.


I dont drink Piston cool-aid.

</div></div>

I agree on the piston. IMO, its just a marketing ploy..

 

[500grains]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Here are the good AR15 makers:

BCM Bravo Company Machine
Colt
Daniel Defense
KAC
LMT Lewis Machine Tool
Noveske

RRA is a plinker gun with a lot of corners cut on quality.

IF you want a piston gun, do not go with the AR15 platform. Get a gun which was designed from the ground up to use a piston like the FN SCAR.

If you start with a good quality AR15 and keep it lubed every 300 rds or so, it will be reliable. Change out the BCG, buffer and buffer spring every 10,000 rounds even if it does not seem to need it. Use new PMAGs. Most failures of the M16 or M4 in the field are due to lack of maintenance - worn out extractor, no lube, trashed magazines.

Most reliability issues with piston AR15 guns are design problems.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Personally I would not go shorter than 11.5" for 5.56mm guns. 10.3" would be the very min of what I beleive is useful or acceptable.

</div></div>

Kevin can you expand on why that very specific minimum of 10.3 vs shorter, 10 or 10.5?</div></div>

1) 5.56mm depends on velocity for performance in human tissue
2) Suppressors generally like longer barrels ESPECIALLY important with BrownTip or Mk262 ammo as its longer and just does not like short guns and cans.
3) DI guns are about pressure and time curves for reliability in unlocking/cycling -- we found in our internal testing that with the 11.5" barrel that our reliability went up astromonically over the 10-10.5" guns, you can open the gas port and play with buffers, as generally our (KAC) guns have smaller ports than most of our competitors, and we do this to reduce fouling and for part longevity.

 

[smgrendel]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Colt MK-18, ive tried to make it fail and couldnt... we just sent all of ours to crane... Might be able to get some from there. New tubes and your good to go.

 

[SmokeRolls]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LSUbeatUby40</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We sell 11.5" SR-16's to LE

Personally I would not go shorter than 11.5" for 5.56mm guns. 10.3" would be the very min of what I beleive is useful or acceptable.

Colt, LMT, DD, BCM all make good guns as well.


I dont drink Piston cool-aid.

</div></div>

I agree on the piston. IMO, its just a marketing ploy..</div></div>
While I like both and have shot both for years. I think it's a step in the right direction for the design.
*It practicaly eliminates heat in the action.
*The spent (waste) gases are no longer deposited into the action.
* How hot does your weapon get after firing 300 rounds one after the other?........( I bet you can fry your dinner on a gas impingment)
* How many times have you had a gas gun get real sluggish and you had to assist the bolt in closing?
I have never had my gas piston get sluggish............at all!
While this may sound like I am all against the gas gun, I'm not but I can see it's attributes.
Just a thought.....I bet horse and buggy people talked down the model T when it first came out.....I think we know how that turned out.
Just my opinion. Not trying to ruffle feathers.
.....SmokeRolls

 

[Blueprinted]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

We got Sig 556s with 10.5 inch barrels, F/A, 3round burst and semi. They have been less than reliable, but hell we got a slammin deal on them. Bean Counters suck. I ran a few courses with on of my team member's gun this week. I try to grab one of the sigs for a course of fire or two to stay familar with the platform. I had a failure to feed from a P-mag in a 15 round course. The gun had little over a 100 rounds through it for the day. I am real glad I did not get issued one, I use my PODA (Personally owned Departmental approved)colt CAR3 to get into postion and use a bolt gun from there. They are worse to tear down and clean than the old S&W4006s we had years ago.

If the budget allows, we just had a Surefire rep in for a demo. Their cans are awesome. I would highly recomend a supressor or a good ear pro with the shorty barrels.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheSmokeRolls</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
While I like both and have shot both for years. I think it's a step in the right direction for the design.
*It practicaly eliminates heat in the action.
*The spent (waste) gases are no longer deposited into the action.
* How hot does your weapon get after firing 300 rounds one after the other?........( I bet you can fry your dinner on a gas impingment)
* How many times have you had a gas gun get real sluggish and you had to assist the bolt in closing?
I have never had my gas piston get sluggish............at all!
While this may sound like I am all against the gas gun, I'm not but I can see it's attributes.
Just a thought.....I bet horse and buggy people talked down the model T when it first came out.....I think we know how that turned out.
Just my opinion. Not trying to ruffle feathers.
.....SmokeRolls</div></div>

I have expirenced a sluggish gas piston operated AR, not because it was dirty, but because the BCG was grinding away at the receiver extension. A problem very common in gas piston ARs. When the op rod pushes the BCG back from the top the force has tendency to cause the BCG to tilt downward instead of simply going straight back as Eugene Stoner designed it to; this is referred to as carrier tilt.

But hey... My bolt carrier group was cold enough that I could take it out and snuggle with it after shooting 300 rounds (If I could ever get 300 rounds through it).

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Wow that sucks @ss!!

 

[Shep48]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Read why the Feds chose RRA. Crazy tests it beat out the competitors on http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/pdfs/gm_oct04.pdf

 

[pawprint]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Entry Weapon, short range, Why go with a 223? Shoot through is a real possibility, have you considered an MP5 in 40 S&W? Training requirement would be much less for both the operators and those that maintain the weapons (if not done by members). If you are using 40S&W as you duty rounds, you have a commonality. The FBI's 10mm MP's are the same size, wt. etc as the 40's. H&K stuff works, don't need to run off to some "custom" maker to get quality or parts, your 9's have lasted 15 years-stick with quality, quality that will be here 15 years from now.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Thought about that but our Tac Commanders want 5.56 up front.

 

[ghostdancer]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

blue line
have you checked with Smith & Wesson for pricing on the m&p 15 very stable platform with exellent warranty the flat-tops start around 750 usd for mil and leo.
sent mine in for a broken extractor after 2500 rds and they replaced the bolt group,main spring and installed new o-rings
shoot's like new.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Ghost, I contacted several S&W LE dealers and the wait time for a select fire SBR was very long. Another Dept on our joint team has them and they shoot great I have no issues with them. I am currently in the process of getting some for T&E. Starting with POF, SIG 516, LMT, and then working my from there. Keep the ideas coming. I will advise you all and take pics as I go.

 

[PSL1078]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blue Line</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Department is getting rid of our MP-5s for a 5.56 platform. I sent a letterhead to POF for a quote on their SBR in an 11.5 bbl. I also sne out to LWRC and RRA. Anyone own a POF in 11.5? Any suggestions for a new guy on here as to whom else to contact? </div></div>

I have a suggestion: Stay away from RRA! 25 LAR15s and 10 LAR8s were all sent back to RRA due to headspacing problems. They were 0 for 35! I think they are a crappy company. I know many on here drink the RRA cool-aid, but I have had quite a bit of experience with their products and would strongly advise you to stay away.

Why did you post this on Snipershide? Why didn't you ask around and find out from other departments?

 

[RUTGERS95]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

definitely look at lwrc's new ultra compact weapon released at shot. I think it's in comp for the new SAS contract....

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

If your budget can afford POF's I would go that route. IMHO they are the best rifles made.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

We just started to transition from the Colt m4 Commando 11.5" select fire for the Colt 6945's in a 10.3" and semiauto. Its the one that has the monolithic rail and flip down sights. We are very pleased with their accuracy but did have a problem with feeding them our duty ballistic tip round. The rough feed ramp edges were catching and compressing bullets into their cases (non cannelured). We sent all 20 back for polishing and test firing. We received them back and only had to send 1 back again. Hopefully the next batch of 20 we order will have the issue resolved. I also heard of another agency here having to send theirs back as well. We did have Gemtechs on these, but had a problem with those as well so they were sent back...LOL

 

[pawprint]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

FBI uses 10 inch uppers-might be worth a call to get their test data.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

The reason for a 5.56 as an entry weapon over a 40 SxW MP% are several:

40 SxW will not defeat sofy body armor

5.56 with proper bullets will defeat soft amror and dump all energy in bad guy without through and through problems associted with 147 grain 9mm Subgun rounds. Yes a 9mm has more problem with through and through than a 5.56 with correct bullets do.

MP5s are great weapons to shoot but not the great choice they once where when everything is considered. Soft amrmor is everywhere these days.

Lastly to OP, you really need to look to some place other than open net for help on this issue. Try NTOA or PM with way to verify credentials for further help

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

PSL,

Actually I got some great ideas from this post and I was looking for a broad spectrum of opinions. I was also given contact info for several manufacturers/distributers and got some really great quotes. Both the NTOA as well as my own OTOA also have recommendations. Besides all the cops and military personnel on here there are also some pretty smart civilians and Firearm Reps. That being said, there are also some who were not much help.

Chris

PS POF is really slow with a carbine for T&E (been waiting a month).

 

[gunnut284]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Stick with a top flight manufacturer like Colt, LMT, BCM or KAC (HK and POF are probably fine too). Don't get Bushmasters like we did, some work fine but about half have issues on FA.

 

[TOPO-sniper]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have expirenced a sluggish gas piston operated AR, not because it was dirty, but because the BCG was grinding away at the receiver extension. A problem very common in gas piston ARs. When the op rod pushes the BCG back from the top the force has tendency to cause the BCG to tilt downward instead of simply going straight back as Eugene Stoner designed it to; this is referred to as carrier tilt.

But hey... My bolt carrier group was cold enough that I could take it out and snuggle with it after shooting 300 rounds (If I could ever get 300 rounds through it). </div></div>

Since all piston ARs are not created equal, just as all DI ARs are not, if you're going to bash one of them at least provide details of the weapon for comparison. I have a LWRC piston SBR and have experienced zero carrier tilt.

 

[Calvinc4s]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I owned a 0/1/3/auto MP5-N that I replaced with a semi Colt 6921 CQBR. The barrel on the 5.56 is 10.25" and was a great replacement.

Though the reliability on both is 100%, I would take the CQBR any day.

1/10th the price
Easy cleaning
less complicated
5.56>9mm IMO
optics & mount options


Look up Ken Elmore of Specialized Armament, look at the Colt 6921CQBR, awesome rig.

 

[Hootiewho]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I own several factory SBR Colts and have a good bit of time behind them. For an shorty, this is the one to roll with...

There is no comparison in the controlibility between the AR and the SCAR. The SCAR 16 CQC is like shooting a subgun. Multiple shots on target are a breeze. FWIW, I have some time with the pistol AR's too (HK416) and while reliable, they are on the low end as far as controlibility. Yes the SCAR is a piston operated rifle, but not in the same sense as the AR piston guns. This rifle, with the suppressor setting, is very can friendly. There is no other platform on earth with more developemental testing. I also have a 17 CQC, and IMHO it is the ultimate patrol type rifle. Light and handy as an M4, just as controlible and a lot more ass to deliever. If you find yourself in SC, you are welcome to come run mine. I would at least check out the FN offerings.

 

[Hootiewho]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

The only reason I am cross posting from another forum is because I am the one who wrote this piece and it is too damn long to post here right now, but it may help your decision...
SCAR vs AR

 

[jakerz3]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

An LWRC in either 10.5" or 12.7" should serve you well. I have an LWRC currently and it is 100%. 10.5" would be nice for close quarters, but I would personally prefer the 12.7" for all around use. I think the extra length would be easier on suppressors as well. It's whatever your current mission dictates that will be the deciding factor. In an optimal world you would have one of each, and maybe even their PSD.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

All of those above are cool but I'd rather have a shotgun

 

[KM375]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

From Army 7-8 The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun round; direct-fire artillery round; or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to clear the first room

 

[rkgsmith]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

We run Colt Commando's and they get the job done, but have tested LWRC and liked them alot. Just ordered 6 in the 16" 308 for outside/inside guns. If your gonna run cans get some type of piston gun, the gas guns just get too dirty in my book. Our M4s will just about shut down after a couple hundred rounds with a can. Sucks when your doing long training drills. Again Colts will get the job done but I think there are better things out there.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

not sure whats in yall's heads but why a leo thinks they need f/a for anything is really beyond me. cant fathom how it would ever be useful unless yer at platoon strength fighting a numerically superior gang. is this the pocky clips vision here

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">imho and with a possible few exceptions yes thats what i was implying. sorry if i made yer nethers twitch. </div></div>

yep this one was sorta miss cleo considering the weapons hot young guns salute into a patriot marine recently at his own home.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tip2oo3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not sure whats in yall's heads but why a leo thinks they need f/a for anything is really beyond me. cant fathom how it would ever be useful unless yer at platoon strength fighting a numerically superior gang. is this the pocky clips vision here? </div></div>

Ugh. not again. OP wants recommendations on mfgrs and set-ups, not a F/A vs. S/A discussion. For everyone's sake, please take it elsewhere. </div></div>

I didnt realize you were the omnipresent SH moderator super ninja, being that yer name isnt green and 78 posts and all. F/A or not makes a difference in which system to suggest or discuss so please climb down off your mighty steed and chilax </div></div>

exactly this

 

[PSL1078]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tip2oo3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">not sure whats in yall's heads but why a leo thinks they need f/a for anything is really beyond me. cant fathom how it would ever be useful unless yer at platoon strength fighting a numerically superior gang. is this the pocky clips vision here? </div></div>

Ugh. not again. OP wants recommendations on mfgrs and set-ups, not a F/A vs. S/A discussion. For everyone's sake, please take it elsewhere. </div></div>

I didnt realize you were the omnipresent SH moderator super ninja, being that yer name isnt green and 78 posts and all. F/A or not makes a difference in which system
to suggest or discuss so please climb down off your mighty steed and chilax </div></div>

exactly this </div></div>

The OP already stated what he wanted. Was it necessary to say FA or SA mattered when considering which system to suggest? Absolutely not. The OP already stated they wanted FA. You started giving your opinion and nobody in here gives a f**k about it.

What is "yer" and "chilax?" would you like some typing lessons? I don't know many in here that speak Ebonics.

It doesn't matter how many posts anyone has or if someone is a moderator or not. Doesn't mean anything.

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP already stated what he wanted. Was it necessary to say FA or SA mattered when considering which system to suggest? Absolutely not. The OP already stated they wanted FA. You started giving your opinion and nobody in here gives a f**k about it.

What is "yer" and "chilax?" would you like some typing lessons? I don't know many in here that speak Ebonics.

It doesn't matter how many posts anyone has or if someone is a moderator or not. Doesn't mean anything. </div></div>
damn son, SOMEBODY's dunkin dohnuts were out of their favorite creme filled this morning huh! speaking of no one giving two fat fucks about an opinion, that would be yours nancy. please dont take offense but your coming off retarded [/quote]

 

[Veer_G]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The OP already stated what he wanted. Was it necessary to say FA or SA mattered when considering which system to suggest? Absolutely not. The OP already stated they wanted FA. You started giving your opinion and nobody in here gives a f**k about it.

What is "yer" and "chilax?" would you like some typing lessons? I don't know many in here that speak Ebonics.

It doesn't matter how many posts anyone has or if someone is a moderator or not. Doesn't mean anything. </div></div>
damn son, SOMEBODY's dunkin dohnuts were out of their favorite creme filled this morning huh! speaking of no one giving two fat fucks about an opinion, that would be yours nancy. please dont take offense but your coming off retarded </div></div> [/quote]

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 20pt">DAAAAAAAAAAMN!</span></span></span>

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Marduk:

I'm sorry, are you LE? Ever been? I highly doubt it. If not, your opinion on what LE should and should not have doesn't matter. The OP said the dept wanted FA. Is that hard for you to understand?</div></div>

i dont know about Marduk but it was hard for me to understand, maybe cause I dont speak fluent in dipshit, yer needin ta chilax

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PSL1078</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Marduk:

I'm sorry, are you LE? Ever been? I highly doubt it. If not, your opinion on what LE should and should not have doesn't matter. The OP said the dept wanted FA. Is that hard for you to understand?</div></div>

i dont know about Marduk but it was hard for me to understand, maybe cause I dont speak fluent in dipshit, yer needin ta chilax </div></div>

I stayed in a Holiday Inn.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

This is why I said your asking in wrong place, because some guys just want to stir the shit when anything related to LE comes up.

The net is great but just because you have a key board does not mean you need to give an opinion on every subject. If you have not made entries with either a military or swat team you are not qualified to tell him what he needs.

The man wanted info for SWAT entry weapons from guys who used them for SWAT entry. If thats not you maybe you can just sit on your hands on this thread. There have been plenty of the police suck threads to voice your opinionsabout police.

The donnut eater thing is so old you would think you could come up with something new. How about guy who shows up when most of you are pissing your pants in the closet because you heard a noise outside

 

[Daps!]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Glad to see your dept coming into modern times and switching to 5.56. My only ADVICE is to not get completely focused on the individual weapon and also look at the logistical side of the house as far as ease of parts replacement maintenance Ect.. Some of the smaller niche companies make awesome rifles but may have problems supporting long term maintenance. All of the companies that keep coming up have good reputations or they wouldnt keep coming up. I'm not sure how many rifles youre purchasing I may have missed it in one of your earlier posts, I got distracted by all the "I know more than you and I know what's best" dick measuring.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Marduk, again, as the OP and one of the end user of the weapon I can tell you whatever is chosen will have f/a capability. I appreciate you opinion, again, on the f/a feature of our entry weapons. That being said, your continued assault on the english language will not be tollerated! LOL j/k.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

FN made the lower for my issue weapon I never had a problem with it.

Military folks should have the right to chime in based on experience with full auto weapons systems.

I'm not going to be a tyrant on it, but that's what you were seeking, right? Experienced advice on what to adequately suit your departments need, right? Then that's what you need because you are not just buying for your tactical team, but also your respective township's safety.

Go with a PROVEN military weapon system.

 

[Tactical]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FN made the lower for my issue weapon I never had a problem with it.

Military folks should have the right to chime in based on experience with full auto weapons systems.

I'm not going to be a tyrant on it, but that's what you were seeking, right? Experienced advice on what to adequately suit your departments need, right? Then that's what you need because you are not just buying for your tactical team, but also your respective township's safety.

Go with a PROVEN military weapon system. </div></div>

Agreed 100%. guys who used said equipement oin either a Military or SWAT Role. No 3 gun or patrol rifle guys is what I meant

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FN made the lower for my issue weapon I never had a problem with it.

Military folks should have the right to chime in based on experience with full auto weapons systems.

I'm not going to be a tyrant on it, but that's what you were seeking, right? Experienced advice on what to adequately suit your departments need, right? Then that's what you need because you are not just buying for your tactical team, but also your respective township's safety.

Go with a PROVEN military weapon system. </div></div>

Agreed 100%. guys who used said equipement oin either a Military or SWAT Role. No 3 gun or patrol rifle guys is what I meant</div></div>

I agree with both of you guys, but doesnt this mean POSSIBLY a burst selector is more appropriate than F/A, I mean in my experiences the only time we even used auto was from MG's and thats from SBF positions, not quite a dept tactic, correct me if im wrong

 

[Tactical]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

VaJay, personally I dont think FA with a 5.56 is what I would want but others disagree so I did not bother to even attempt to change anyones mind. I know everyone says we are trained for 3 shot trigger control but once shit hits fan I see lots of seven rds bursts coming from guys who thought they let three go ( true story on entry)

I would prefer a burst system. The problem is the Colt burst system sucks.

OK to original poster. I have had crappy l;uck with short bbl Colts and find it takes the 14.5" bbl to be 100% reliable with gas system guns.

I ma just now working with a gas piston system that seems to work well. I taught a shot load of classes where guys with after market systems showed up and where eventually showed side line because there guns did not run right. The PWS Ssytem guns seem to work well but right now all my entry systems are gas system guns with 14.5" bbls

But I am old school anyway and still run original trigger systems because they work everytime

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

i run original triggers in my carbines and we have run 10.5" 5.56 guns for years they run just fine. i've put thousands of rounds through them dirty, clean, etc as long as you keep em lubed they run suppressed or not.

for a SWAT weapon i would go 8.5"-10" 300BLK but thats just me and my opinion is worth what i was paid to give it

$0.00

 

[Tactical]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

Joe, the Colt built 10.5"s ran fine with Mil 5.56 ammo but we ran for LE a bunch of different ammo, some of it with soft point.The ammo selection is what makes the 5.56 round greta for civy LE. With right bullet it pops through soft armor but does not go far after that. Alot of the different ammos we used jammed in the Commando's, so we went with 14.5"

The 14.5's shot all the ammo without a problem. Different use/ammo equals different results

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

I'm going to ask in anticipation that someone will ask and start some flame war and massive trolling. Call it clearing out the brush before a wildfire.

Would there be any other weapon system besides the M4/M16 family that could double as an entry weapon?

No.

Parts are cheap. Anything made in a foreign country comes with problems when it becomes broken. It doesn't matter if it's a full auto G3 or a Mercedes SLR. IT WILL BE A BITCH TO FIX IN AMERICA.

Training for your respective team will be easier. There are plenty of combat experienced instructors and seasoned LEOs offering their assistance with this weapons platform.

This is just to prevent the topic from jumping the tracks. There are reasons why we don't see an entire PD SWAT Team carrying Steyr AUGs.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Looking for new SWAT entry weapon

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i run original triggers in my carbines and we have run 10.5" 5.56 guns for years they run just fine. i've put thousands of rounds through them dirty, clean, etc as long as you keep em lubed they run suppressed or not.

for a SWAT weapon i would go 8.5"-10" 300BLK but thats just me and my opinion is worth what i was paid to give it

$0.00 </div></div>
Sorry joe, yer opinion aint squat cuz you aint pork.