Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

[RyanMcIntyre]

Hey, I've been reloading for at least 5-6 years but only for about a year or two as a precision reloader. I used to shoot rimfire benchrest, so my skills as a shooter are at least par or better (I'd like to think).

I'm asking for load help with my Remington 700 SPS: 20" 1:12 twist, action has been lapped/trued and the barrel threaded and crowned but not chambered (bought it that way), B&C stock fully floats the barrel, I bedded the action and recoil lug, RB trigger, Loopy 3.5-10x40 Mk4 LRT. Currently the rifle and I can shoot about .600" average groups @ 100 yards (I can break into the .003's once every 10 groups, roughly) using the loads I'll describe below. Rifle definitely prefers heavy bullets.

Hornady Match brass, annealed and FL sized every 2 firings (3 loads on it so far, shoulder bumped .003")
CCI 200
Varget 43gr
Hornady 178gr A-Max
Seated .050" off lands shows best consistency.


I want to try SMK, Nosler and Berger bullets all in the 178-180gr range since that seems to be my and the rifle's favorites. So really, what I'm looking for is some input on tuning the load a little better if you have ideas and maybe some powder suggestions, I've only used Varget in this rifle.

 

[jdgray]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Varget is all I run in .223, and .308. Very good groups out of both calibers. I'd try a OCW work up with some 175SMKs, and go from there. My .308 likes 44-45grs Varget, 175SMKs, CCI200s, Win brass. Good luck! Cant see it being a powder problem.

 

[Driftwood]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Popular powders for 308 are Varget, RL15, IMR8208, H4064, W748, IMR4895 and H4895 amoungst others. I use RL15 most of the time, but the most popular 308 powder is probably Varget. H4064 was used by Federal for a while to make their match loads. IMR8208 was brought back for the benchrest crowds. H4895 was a go to powder for M1A's in competition shooting. W748 is a ball powder that meters well and burns clean. You can get great result with any of these powders.

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

rl 15, imr 4064 and cfe 223 are doing well with 178's right now

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Ryan,
You have what I have found to be the best 208 powder for our southern climate. Keep going with the Varget.
I shoot 44.7 grains with the Sierra 175 SMK and it has shot well in most every rifle I have shot it thru. Velocity is good too at 2730 FPS from 24" barrel.

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

For heavy .308 bullets, try the PowerPro2000MR. I shoot the 178 and 208 Amax out of a Savage 110FP w/1:10 twist. This is my powder of choice. Meters well and gives greater velocity.

 

[dlouie87]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Varget and RL15 seem to be the popular choices for the .308

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

When it comes to powders there are always popular old favorites. I went through this when I first started. For my .308 I ended up with Varget. That said, I also have tried out some of the newer powder offerings as they came along just to see if there was some added benefit.

I recently started using CFE223 in my .308 and will be changing from my other .223 powder as it's supply is gone.

My old load of 44.4 gr of Varget with a 168gr Nosler Custom Competition was a good load. No complaints other than the fact that Varget is a pain in the @$$ when it comes to powder measures.

I now load 48.1 gr of CFE223 with the same bullet and get more speed with smaller groups at longer distances. Better yet, instead of the hard carbon fouling of the Varget, I find the bore cleans with just one or two patches after the initial "solvent soak" patch. When cleaning out copper, a patch with Sweet's 7.62 used to come out with a dark blue/green stain. With the CFE223, the copper indication is only a small amount and is gone after the first scub. No "soaking" with the Sweets required.

Yes, Varget and RL-15 are the "Good Old Reliables" but if one is also loading for an AR-15 alongside their .308, CFE223 offers a lot.

 

[fx77]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

VArget and Vita Vhouri 140..

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Thanks for all the help so far! It seems that nobody really thinks I'm off to a bad start, that's good news. So if I have this right, here are some of the ol' standby powders for 308:

IMR 4064
IMR 4895
H4895
Varget
Reloader 15
Win 748

Two I've never thought of:
V 140
Power Pro 2000 (never even heard of it)

And newcomers worth trying:
CFE223
IMR 8208


Will I notice much by swapping to another powder? Or will bullet choices have a larger effect? I'm also going to have a Chrono soon (thanks Santa! haha), will I see much by tuning closer to the velocity node? Should I take a step lighter on bullets, like to the 168 SMK that's much more popular?

I have to wonder what's in CFE that "scrubs" copper while you shoot? I also moly coat, in the last 400 rounds I've run two dry patches through the bore and gotten squeaky clean patches. I would consider it for my AR/Mini/bulk ammo though, I've heard good things about it.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

.308 ...power pro 2000 mr for 175's and up. Varget for 175's and down. just my opinion

 

[nso123]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

I just tried some AR Comp with 168gr SMK yesterday, and it looks very promising. First load I tried with it was .4 MOA, and the exact same point of impact as Federal GM.

 

[JB02]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Varget (best IMO, very stable). 44gr is what many use for 178 BTHPs/AMAXs

RL-15 (many report higher velocity)

IMR 8208XBR (meters well)

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Two I've never thought of:
V 140
Power Pro 2000 (never even heard of it)
</div></div>


http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/power_pro_2000.aspx

 

[Unknown]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

If I didn't already have some Varget, I would probably try 8208. I have had problems with temperature sensitive powders, and although I like the way ball powders meter, I read that ball powders burn hotter, and can wear out the throat of my rifles faster.

What they didn't say was HOW MUCH faster....If my barrel wears out at 5000 rounds with Varget or 8208, and 4900 rounds with ball powder, it wouldn't be enough to concern me.

 

[l115a3]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Classic choice was IMR 4064 , IMR 4895 , IMR 3031

Modern Choice was Varget , RL-15

 

[rg1911]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

It's really hard to beat IMR4895 and IMR4064. (The IMR4895 was my preferred choice for 175-gr Hornady for the 600-yard string in NRA Highpower matches and an M1A.)

Richard

 

[Rooster931]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

I have used IMR 4064, Varget among other however I too have fallen in love with CFE 223. I am running 46.8 grains of this powder with great results. I really havent seen any of the copper claims yet but I keep my rifle very clean. The powder meters great and is very easy to load.

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Right on! Thanks for all the answers everybody. So it seems like a lot of users like Varget, I could stick with that and be just fine. Or my next 8lb order of powder might instead be 8 1lb jugs haha

 

[JGorski]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

47.5grs of 2000MR or CFE223.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to wonder what's in CFE that "scrubs" copper while you shoot?</div></div>

I've read that tin, bismuth and lead all suppress deposition of copper - and presumably tin or bismuth (or both) are used in CFE, though maybe they've formulated something else here; Hodgdon isn't saying, I think.

If it's tin and/or bismuth, there's no scrubbing - just avoiding the deposits in the first place - and hence anything that's already in the bore prior to using CFE223 wouldn't be removed simply by shooting cartridges loaded therewith.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Any of the mid-range powders mentioned on this post are going to work if you run ladders and see where the gun likes them.

You might even try running ladders on the lighter bullets just to see how they do.

As far as long term accuracy though, it is my opinion, you'd be better off not running moly in your new barrel. There comes a point, that the stuff is just too hard to clean properly and it affects accuracy. NB2 is a better alternative.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier.

 

[White Mamba]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier. </div></div>

Carter, i just started loading the 155palmas with 43gr 8208 ands its makeing bugholes with three different rifles. Im also running the 178amax with 41.5 grs to 1000 and have had excellent results. Both loads are loaded to mag length

 

[Bill Larson]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

VARGET......
44 GR. WITH 175 SMK`S...
BILL LARSON

 

[afrancke]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier.</div></div>

I used the following at 1000 yards in light wind with no problem:

44.1 gr 8208
Lapua 308 brass (regular large primer)
Federal Gold Match 210 large primers
Berger 155.5 Fullbore projectiles
2.940 (mag length minus a small clearance)

This achieved 2680 fps from a 20" TRG.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

I have used IMR 4064, Varget among other however I too have fallen in love with CFE 223. I am running 46.8 grains of this powder with great results. I really havent seen any of the copper claims yet but I keep my rifle very clean. The powder meters great and is very easy to load.

FWIW, I dont see any copper fouling in my 308 barrel after 15 shots with the 2000MR powder, also.

 

[JGorski]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Here's a nice group I shot with my "Classic" stocked 700 in 308 with 2000MR & 178HPBTs. 200yds!

Here's 2 groups shot @300yds with my SPSS showing the difference between the same amount of 2000MR and CFE223,47grs. Lapua brass.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: White Mamba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier. </div></div>

Carter, i just started loading the 155palmas with 43gr 8208 ands its makeing bugholes with three different rifles. Im also running the 178amax with 41.5 grs to 1000 and have had excellent results. Both loads are loaded to mag length</div></div>

43.0 grains is moving a little slow for what I am looking for. By my calcs, that should get me just under 2800 fps (in my rifle). I was looking for north of 2900 fps.

For slow and accurate, I already have my 43.0 gr of Varget and 175 SMK's. That averages .4 MOA 5-shot groups for me, but is a little slow for 1,000 yards... I am just not liking what I am seeing on paper at distance. Accuracy deteriorates too quickly, wind or no.

I wanted to see if I could come up with a load that works up close AND far away. Hence my move to 155 Scenars. If I don't like the Scenars, I will experiment around with Bergers. I like the 185 Hybrids so much, I might try the 155 Hybrids.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: afrancke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier.</div></div>

I used the following at 1000 yards in light wind with no problem:

44.1 gr 8208
Lapua 308 brass (regular large primer)
Federal Gold Match 210 large primers
Berger 155.5 Fullbore projectiles
2.940 (mag length minus a small clearance)

This achieved 2680 fps from a 20" TRG.</div></div>

Good to know. I might give the Bergers a try.

 

[insight3b]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

Vihta Vouri N135 and N540 are outstanding powders for the .308

 

[Unknown]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

One thing I found very helpful was to look at the 308 loading threads. I took note of all the "recipes" for loads with the components I was considering. By looking at them, I was able to get a reasonable "average" of how the various powders performed for people.

For the 308, Varget seems to be the odds on favorite, with 8208 being sort of the new kid on the block. Many people get great results with other powders, but some of them are quite temperature sensitive, and loads that work great in one season, suck in other times of the year. So I like to stay with the least temperature sensitive powder so I don't have to change loads depending on the time of year. For the 260 Remington, H4350 seems to be the favorite.

My reason for mentioning this, is that you might find it helpful to go through the various threads and see what loads other people say they have had success with.

My final load ended up being .3 grains different from the average I got from all the loads using similar components to the ones I wanted to use. I was pretty pleased with that. I still had to do load workup, and testing for velocity and accuracy, but I ended up just about where everyone else was.

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I found very helpful was to look at the 308 loading threads. I took note of all the "recipes" for loads with the components I was considering. By looking at them, I was able to get a reasonable "average" of how the various powders performed for people... For the 308, Varget seems to be the odds on favorite, with 8208 being sort of the new kid on the block.</div></div>

That's pretty much how I got to where I am now. I lurked about 50 forums and nobody had an unkind word about Varget so I went with that. Everything else: bullet weight, seat length, charge density - I ran ladder tests. I was mostly asking because I'm down to about 2# of Varget so I'll be needing more powder soon, and using the load above, those were my best results. I just wanted suggestions to see if I could bring that in with a different powder or even how big a role it really plays. Based on the all the suggestions I'm seeing, I will actually try some of the other IMR and Hodgdon powders since they're available locally much more readily than other brands, but it's pretty clear there aren't enough reasons to give up on Varget. I also want to try other bullets, I've used Hornady Match and A-Max almost exclusively and should probably give SMKs and Bergers a whirl. This is a stock rifle for the most part so at some point I'll have to accept an absolute limit on accuracy attainable by reloading alone anyway. Perhaps my money and thoughts are best spent on practice and burning out this barrel first.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Looking for powder advice, 308 Win

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: White Mamba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just bought some 8208 xbr this weekend. I understand it works better with the 155's than Varget. My standard load is Varget and 175 SMK's, but I was looking for something that gets to 1,000 a little easier. </div></div>

Carter, i just started loading the 155palmas with 43gr 8208 ands its makeing bugholes with three different rifles. Im also running the 178amax with 41.5 grs to 1000 and have had excellent results. Both loads are loaded to mag length</div></div>

43.0 grains is moving a little slow for what I am looking for. By my calcs, that should get me just under 2800 fps (in my rifle). I was looking for north of 2900 fps.

For slow and accurate, I already have my 43.0 gr of Varget and 175 SMK's. That averages .4 MOA 5-shot groups for me, but is a little slow for 1,000 yards... I am just not liking what I am seeing on paper at distance. Accuracy deteriorates too quickly, wind or no.

I wanted to see if I could come up with a load that works up close AND far away. Hence my move to 155 Scenars. If I don't like the Scenars, I will experiment around with Bergers. I like the 185 Hybrids so much, I might try the 155 Hybrids. </div></div>

If speed is your quest, do check out CFE223. I see 50-75 fps faster on average with it and I'm not even testing the limits yet. I 'clocked' 2737 fps with a 168 gr Nosler using 48 gr of CFE. Max published is 49 gr for this bullet. This is definitely better than a "crunch load" of 44.5 gr Varget that only gets me 2660 average in the same rifle. The case still has room for more CFE but I've reached my accuracy node so I haven't gone higher.

I'm moving on to testing it with 185 gr Juggernauts in my .308 to see what this powder is really capable of.