Low Velocity from New Rifle

[FourT6and2]

Is that a cerakoted bolt?

Yes, I mentioned that earlier. It's the new Cerakote Elite. Supposed to be thinner. I mentioned earlier that I was surprised the smith didn't mask off the lugs and bolt face. My other rifle has a parkerized bolt. I much prefer that. But this other smith said they don't do that.

 

[Ledzep]

LRI (at least when I worked there) never masked off lugs/faces for cerakote. I don't remember ever hearing back from customers about headspace or accuracy issues. The lugs wear the Ckote off very quickly, and within a couple hundred rounds the bolt face is usually thinned down to about nothing. Not saying it's ideal, but if it was a cause for concern in terms of headspace/safety/accuracy, we would have heard about it.

The ring in the primer is from Ckote. If I had to guess I'd say entirely aesthetic.

2600fps from a 26" barrel is slow. Just plain slow. Initial break in and 0.011" extra freebore is not going to cause 230fps difference. On the low end of "acceptable" I could live with 2725fps with that setup and factory ammo, but I agree that 2750-2850 is the nominal velocity range. I was getting 2845fps with a 22" pipe with reloads and no pressure.



I've run into issues with bad barrels before. I always just eat it and pay to have a new pipe hung. If the GS or barrel maker will make it right, great, but I'd rather shoot and get normal results than spend $300 in ammo/components chasing my tail.

 

[FourT6and2]

I've run into issues with bad barrels before. I always just eat it and pay to have a new pipe hung. If the GS or barrel maker will make it right, great, but I'd rather shoot and get normal results than spend $300 in ammo/components chasing my tail.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I'm going to have the smith who did my other rifle put a new barrel on. Don't know if it's the barrel or the chamber. I don't want to throw a shop under the bus. But I know the guy who did my other rifle does a fantastic job.

 

[FALex]

I'm going to hazard a guess that your rifle isn't bedded? Obviously, that has jack shit to do with the velocity of your rounds, just testing myself.

 

[Sendit6.5]

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I'm going to have the smith who did my other rifle put a new barrel on. Don't know if it's the barrel or the chamber. I don't want to throw a shop under the bus. But I know the guy who did my other rifle does a fantastic job.

Sounds like a plan. Sux you have to go through this! I had a similar type of snafu with my recent build. It all worked out for the best, in the long run, but it was sure frustrating and disheartening. So, I can sure empathize. You're in better spirits than I was. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FourT6and2]

I'm going to hazard a guess that your rifle isn't bedded? Obviously, that has jack shit to do with the velocity of your rounds, just testing myself.

Of course it's bedded.

 

[FALex]

Of course it's bedded.

And thus I failed my quiz! LOL! Thanks.

 

[FourT6and2]

Sucks to hear, man. I think we all have run into a bad build/ barrel at some point or if haven't yet, will at some point. Doesn't sound like the Smith is being evasive or shady. I often wonder about barrel manufacturers. I bet with all the barrels they pump out they get a lot of calls and to them at some point they feel like they can't bleed out new barrels. Its probably hard for them to know the legit problems from someone's bad handloads.

Looks like you're on the right track about not beating the dead horse/barrel and cutting your losses. I would be tempted to mail the barrel to Hawk Hill. Not to be a dick but they may actually check it out if put in their hands with no expectation of compensation. If they see a problem they just may do the right thing. HH has an excellent rep. If they switched steel distributors and this is a data point of feedback on that steel they will know it.

I am fortunate enough that my Smith is an excellent shooter and sees things from a shooters perspective. He has a good reputation of identifying bad barrels and working with the manufacturer to get a new barrel. If he saw those groups and velocities he would definitely to take action and own the problem until you were shooting at your expectations. I've used Smiths in the past that once the gun left their shop it was pretty much your problem. They wouldn't say that, they would answer your emails for a while but it was pretty much like HH's answer. They would give you an ambiguous, educational answer about all the possible reasons your barrel is shooting like that, but they weren't saying the magic words like Defiance did, "send the gun to me and I'll check it out".

If you're looking for a good Smith and are dealing with folks distant from your locality. I heartily recommend Harless Precision in Colorado.

https://m.facebook.com/harlessprecision/?ref=m_notif&notif_t=open_graph_action_like

Still waiting to hear back from the smith. But so far it's kinda been like what you describe. Vaguely interested/helpful. But really the only advice is keep shooting it for a while and see if it "breaks in." But frankly, it's cheaper just to re-barrel and hope that solves the problem. I'll see what Defiance says first. Gonna take 2-3 months for a new barrel to arrive. And then probably another few months for the smith to spin it up. In the meantime, I've got my other rifle and I know it's a shooter lol.

Thanks for the smith recommendation but I'm definitely sticking with the guy who did my other rifle. He's great.

 

[Supersubes]

Just send it to LRI and have it back in two weeks. Let them provide the blank

 

[supercorndogs]

Still waiting to hear back from the smith. But so far it's kinda been like what you describe. Vaguely interested/helpful. But really the only advice is keep shooting it for a while and see if it "breaks in." But frankly, it's cheaper just to re-barrel and hope that solves the problem. I'll see what Defiance says first. Gonna take 2-3 months for a new barrel to arrive. And then probably another few months for the smith to spin it up. In the meantime, I've got my other rifle and I know it's a shooter lol.

Thanks for the smith recommendation but I'm definitely sticking with the guy who did my other rifle. He's great.

LRI is super quick. They would likely have you finished in way less time than you are waiting for a blank.

 

[FourT6and2]

LRI is super quick. They would likely have you finished in way less time than you are waiting for a blank.

I've already spoken to them. Gotta supply your own barrel in this case. They don't stock Bartlein and this is a custom contour. So either way I have to source the barrel myself.

 

[FourT6and2]

Try Bruno's shooter supply, bugholes.com, or bullets.com for barrels. They can be had...next week. My Smith's turn around is a couple of weeks. I don't do that 8 month - 2 year stuff anymore.

I'm a few steps ahead of you

Nobody stocks the barrel I need. Gotta order it. But SPR/BugHoles has standing monthly orders. So it's quicker than ordering direct. But you still gotta wait.

 

[FourT6and2]

No kidding. I didn't think about that. Now I'm curious what configuration you prefer. Im a pretty standard Med Palma/ Rem Var kind of guy

I prefer the heavier contours for their ability to buck heat. But they are heavy lol. My other rifle has an M24. This one has a Marksman. I'm gradually going lighter it seems. I could try a Whitley Medium Palma maybe. That strikes me as another uncommon contour though. The next smaller one is the regular Medium Palma.

 

[FourT6and2]

Just got off the phone with Glen @ Defiance. Nice dude (Thanks again, Glen!). He didn't see anything wrong with the bolt. So I think I can safely eliminate that as a potential problem. He mentioned taking a look at the trigger to make sure nothing is binding internally and that it clears the stock/DBM. I'll recheck the action screws and scope rings and all that. But I'm pretty sure they're torqued properly.

 

[Eagle1899]

I would get Hawk Hill back on the phone. That's not much of answer..... for 200 missing FPS...

 

[Iamero]

Did part of your display burned out so it is actually reading 2800 but you think it says 2600? lol.

 

[FourT6and2]

Did part of your display burned out so it is actually reading 2800 but you think it says 2600? lol.

Yes, that's totally it haha

 

[FourT6and2]

What should the action bolts be torqued to? 65 in/lb? Is there a specific procedure to torquing them? Front first then rear? Other way around? Both at the same time?

 

[FourT6and2]

1980's sniper lore says 65lbs. Gunsmiths say threads start to stretch at 60 so he does 55. I still use 65 bc that's what my torque wrench is. Lore says tighten the front to just before breaking the limiter, do rear, break torque limiter on front, break rear, repeat each again. I would just make sure I started with the front and usually blow off the redundant 3rd torqueing.

A little test I learned lately that has been super useful is once the action screws has been torqued, place the rifle on its butt standing vertical and use your eyes to focus on the front of the action where it disappears into the stock just behind The Recoil lug. Loosen the front action screw and watch the action. Look to see if the action moves in the stock as if it was raising up out of the stock as you loosen the screw. If It Moves In and Out of the stock as you loosen and tighten the front action screw the action is stressed and you are binding the action within the stock. It will either need bedded or if it's is already bedded it is a pretty good clue that the bedding job is jacked.

Everything seems fine. Bolts torqued to spec. No movement in action.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

CGS in Artesia NM is another source.

 

[spife7980]

It just depends. I like to stick to a 60 front 45 rear but my new krg says 45 front and rear. I think so long as you keep it tight and consistent you can maintain a tune with you handloads but as a factory shooter maybe varying levels of torque could act as a tuner of sorts in itself. I've read that you can but I haven never tried it myself and I'd love to see a study on it and this seems like it might be a great candidate. Keep shooting it in like your smith said but some 5 shot groups at each level. Might not make up for the slow speed but also might reveal it to be something special? Or shit, throw a different sort of ammo through it, prime or something instead of hornady.

 

[FourT6and2]

Ya, you should probably shoot 3 five-round groups every 5ft/lbs starting at 15 and...Man, F' that shit! If you got to tickle the little man in the boat just so to get her to shoot straight it isn't worth your time and $. That barrel should be working for you, not the other way around. You have a total malfunction; chop it! Sell that barrel to someone who wants a fireform barrel for their 260AI or Sewedemoor. Even if you do get it to shoot at 43.56 ft/lbs it won't fix your velocity problem.

Trying prime ammo isn't a bad suggestion.

Sorry Spife, I just wanted to be melodramatic....

Yeah, I'm not going to do that whole torque/shoot/torque/shoot thing. Waste of money and time.

Prime ammo is a no go. They refuse to ship to my area (even though it's legal to do so).

At this point, I'm going to have a new barrel spun up. I might send it to the shop who built the rifle and give them another shot, or I might send it to the guy who did my other rifle. I haven't decided yet. And still haven't heard back from the shop. Hopefully they stand by their work. But I understand it's hard to know what the cause of the problem is. My guess is it's either the barrel or the chamber.

You can clearly see the pressure signs are very different from the photos of the cases.

 

[SRPowah]

I would try and find someone interested in solving the mystery one way or another. See if someone just wants to tinker with it for knowledge. Set the barrel back and rechamber to rule it out. If it still shoots slow, feed the info to HH. If it shoots great with a new chamber, get the smith to help fund your other smith's bill.

 

[mpk1996]

OTM has 6.5 barrels in stock. and Joe Walls is a great gunsmith. you could either purchase a new barrel from OTM and send it all to a smith of your choosing, or buy the barrel and send the action to Joe to have it spun up. I think his turn around time is pretty quick right now

http://shop.otmtactical.com/HEAVY-PALMA_c_68.html

 

[ddavis]

2600 fps from a 26" barrel is generally considered "shot out" and to the point that most people would replace it if they can't chase the lands handloading anymore. That is unacceptable for a new rifle. I would say this is largely due to freebore. There seems to be this trend of setting up a reamer to where a handloader can seat bullets out at max mag length, which unfortunately doesn't work out for people shooting factory ammo. Even for handloaders, once the throat starts to grow and they reach mag length, they can't chase the lands any further. The first Creed barrel I had would jam factory ammo down to 2.76"ish. It gave me 2730 fps from a 21" barrel, which was pretty good. It lasted 2400 rounds before starting to lose velocity. My last Creed barrel lasted about 1000 rounds (different reamer) before I couldn't chase the lands anymore and velocity was in the 2600 range.

It's possible you also have a bore diameter that is larger combined with the long freebore, compounding the issue.

IMO, a reamer set up to load the 140's to 2.862" like the gunsmith says is garbage. Even if you handload, it's not going to be long before you have a big jump to the lands if you are running AICS mags. My gunsmith is working on getting a reamer with a short freebore for just this reason.

Best of luck, but I think the best thing you could do would be to have this re-chambered with a shorter freebore that's set up to have factory ammo right at the lands.

 

[FourT6and2]

2600 fps from a 26" barrel is generally considered "shot out" and to the point that most people would replace it if they can't chase the lands handloading anymore. That is unacceptable for a new rifle. I would say this is largely due to freebore. There seems to be this trend of setting up a reamer to where a handloader can seat bullets out at max mag length, which unfortunately doesn't work out for people shooting factory ammo. Even for handloaders, once the throat starts to grow and they reach mag length, they can't chase the lands any further. The first Creed barrel I had would jam factory ammo down to 2.76"ish. It gave me 2730 fps from a 21" barrel, which was pretty good. It lasted 2400 rounds before starting to lose velocity. My last Creed barrel lasted about 1000 rounds (different reamer) before I couldn't chase the lands anymore and velocity was in the 2600 range.

It's possible you also have a bore diameter that is larger combined with the long freebore, compounding the issue.

IMO, a reamer set up to load the 140's to 2.862" like the gunsmith says is garbage. Even if you handload, it's not going to be long before you have a big jump to the lands if you are running AICS mags. My gunsmith is working on getting a reamer with a short freebore for just this reason.

Best of luck, but I think the best thing you could do would be to have this re-chambered with a shorter freebore that's set up to have factory ammo right at the lands.

Yep, I agree. I'm sending it all off (with a new Bartlein barrel, to rule out a bore issue) to the smith who did my first rifle. I should have just gone with him to begin with. But I wanted to try another shop that's highly regarded, just to see what all the fuss was about.

 

[Edds]

The 143 gr ELD-X bullets in Hornady factory loaded Precision Hunter ammo jump .090" in a new SAAMI chamber.

They contact the lands at an OAL of 2.900".

 

[FourT6and2]

The 143 gr ELD-X bullets in Hornady factory loaded Precision Hunter ammo jump .090" in a new SAAMI chamber.

They contact the lands at an OAL of 2.900".

Not sure I understand your point. I'm a tool. I need things spoonfed to me lol

 

[supercorndogs]

1980's sniper lore says 65lbs. Gunsmiths say threads start to stretch at 60 so he does 55. I still use 65 bc that's what my torque wrench is. Lore says tighten the front to just before breaking the limiter, do rear, break torque limiter on front, break rear, repeat each again. I would just make sure I started with the front and usually blow off the redundant 3rd torqueing.

A little test I learned lately that has been super useful is once the action screws has been torqued, place the rifle on its butt standing vertical and use your eyes to focus on the front of the action where it disappears into the stock just behind The Recoil lug. Loosen the front action screw and watch the action. Look to see if the action moves in the stock as if it was raising up out of the stock as you loosen the screw. If It Moves In and Out of the stock as you loosen and tighten the front action screw the action is stressed and you are binding the action within the stock. It will either need bedded or if it's is already bedded it is a pretty good clue that the bedding job is jacked.

Some of the V block chassis systems have a floating rear tang, and the front will raise even if the action is not stressed. I noticed the banana shaped receiver doing it the opposite way in my Manners mini chassis. After tightening the front screw, I could feel the rear screw, and see for that matter, as it pulled the rear tang down putting stress on the action. I bedded it into a regular stock and its been great after that.

 

[Pusher591]

Yep, I agree. I'm sending it all off (with a new Bartlein barrel, to rule out a bore issue) to the smith who did my first rifle. I should have just gone with him to begin with. But I wanted to try another shop that's highly regarded, just to see what all the fuss was about.

Has the original builder offered anything? This seems unacceptable from a brand new full custom build, built by a reputable shop. If they don't offer anyhting then I would say who it is so others can steer clear. Not a huge fan of that but if they offer nothing then that's just not right.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I think on their website they spell "Custom Rifle Builder" as "Custom Rifle Bulider".

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Not sure I understand your point. I'm a tool. I need things spoonfed to me lol

He didn't read the part about match grade chamber so it won't exactly match SAAMI. If it is designed for PRS and it is a Surgeon then it could have been designed to run dirty with factory ammo similar to the .260 Surgeon (T. Cross/Ft Bragg).

 

[FourT6and2]

Has the original builder offered anything? This seems unacceptable from a brand new full custom build, built by a reputable shop. If they don't offer anyhting then I would say who it is so others can steer clear. Not a huge fan of that but if they offer nothing then that's just not right.

Nope, nothing yet. Their initial response was to keep shooting it and see if it magically improves. After that, I sent them the additional photos I posted here. But no response. That was 5 days ago. It's a holiday, so maybe they're out of town or something.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

You end up sending it back?

 

[FatBoy]

I'm gonna admit now I didn't real all the pages, but I had a similar experience with my very first custom build. MV wise, not quality or grouping questions. Before GAP was a household name George build me a 6.5x284. The Gumby rifle. Thing shot from day 1, but never got the speed I expected. (wanted 2950) out of the barrel. It was a 26" 8.5 twist Rock Creek tight bore. We went with it because be had it on the shelf.

long story short, I ended up testing five different powders and a couple different bullets and finally settled on H4831SC and a 142. MV was only about 2830 in a 26", but OMG did it shoot. One day Nick G and I were on the range at 600y. My sear let go on the M700 trigger and it was an unsafe 2oz for the remainder of the session, that said, my target was 4, 1" white plasters shaped into a box. I sent three rounds down and all three were inside one paster. I took that rifle to 1k, when I shot F Class (before F Class was adopted) and used it, a Harris blood and a 15x NXS I bought used off Mike Miller to clean just about every match the rest of the year.

Slow, yes. but damn it was accurate and that made up for it. Not sure this is relevant, as I loved the rifle and I could nut punch myself for selling it. Just saying, MV isn't everything. I think sometimes we spend too much time chasing a number.

in the end, that barrel went South at about 850 rounds. It got pulled and I had a Border put on. In retrospect, I probably had a carbon ring and could have gotten a few hundred more out of it, but that's how we learn.

I hope you get this all worked out. The cost of components and especially time, makes this shit too costly to not enjoy.

 

[FourT6and2]

The shop suggested I try some fancy cleaner and sent me a bottle (Witches Brew). I haven't had a chance to try cleaning the barrel with it yet. Life and work has gotten in the way. I will give it a try as soon as I can. But I can't imagine simply using a different cleaning agent will magically speed the barrel up and bring 1" groups down into the teens. I have a new barrel on order. But it will take time. Once it arrives, I'll send the rifle off to the smith who did my other rifle (Jon Beanland).

Bartlein said 6 months for a barrel. But BugHoles said they might be able to alter one of their standing monthly orders and get me one sooner. So I went that route.

 

[FourT6and2]

Wow, that is some bullshit....

Yup.

Still waiting on a new barrel.

 

[FourT6and2]

Barrel is on its way. I'll ship it all off to my smith in a week.

 

[CBDR]

I must say Four T6and2 your documentation of this issue tells me your a patient person. I fall a little short in that department.

 

[Pusher591]

Who was the shop because thats kind of shitty on there end. They just need to suck it up, send you a label and square it away. End of story

 

[FourT6and2]

Who was the shop because thats kind of shitty on there end. They just need to suck it up, send you a label and square it away. End of story

If I name the shop, it's going to cause a huge shit-storm, believe me. And I don't have the energy to deal with that haha. They will say it's my fault and that I can't shoot or something. And arguments will go back and forth. I'd rather just have my other smith put the new barrel on and be happy.

 

[FourT6and2]

Heard from my smith (Jon Beanland—not the original smith who put this particular rifle together). New barrel is chambered. Just finishing up mounting and whatnot. Should have rifle back in the near future. Jon's a great guy, always good chatting with him.

 

[FourT6and2]

I've got the rifle back. Weather has been crap here so haven't had a good day to get to the range. When I do, I'll report back about the new barrel.

I sent the original barrel to someone who said they'd put it on their lathe and have a look out of curiosity. I don't know him from Adam, but he seems to know what he's doing. The bore is ok, but the chamber and threading job have a few... idiosyncrasies. How much these were contributing to the accuracy and velocity issues, I can't say. But I won't be using the rifle smith who built thing gun ever again. Should have just sent it to Jon Beanland in the first place.

The gentleman who has the old barrel is going to cut the ends, re-chamber, and re-crown and mount it to one of his rigs to test. This will eliminate the barrel blank and bore as potential root causes.

 

[wade2big]

Ok, cool. So what might be causing that low of a velocity? I'm pretty sure 2600fps (hell, even 2700fps) is low for a 26" barrel.

Nope. Factory Hornady 140 bthp, eldm and 147 elder all shoot at 2700 FPS out of mine and my buddies 26” barrels. 70 degrees sea level

 

[ICU22250]

I've got the rifle back. Weather has been crap here so haven't had a good day to get to the range. When I do, I'll report back about the new barrel.

I sent the original barrel to someone who said they'd put it on their lathe and have a look out of curiosity. I don't know him from Adam, but he seems to know what he's doing. The bore is ok, but the chamber and threading job have a few... idiosyncrasies. How much these were contributing to the accuracy and velocity issues, I can't say. But I won't be using the rifle smith who built thing gun ever again. Should have just sent it to Jon Beanland in the first place.

The gentleman who has the old barrel is going to cut the ends, re-chamber, and re-crown and mount it to one of his rigs to test. This will eliminate the barrel blank and bore as potential root causes.

Just wondering, how well known was this smith and does he frequent this site at all? I know you don't wanna put a name on him and that's fine. I'm just hoping he's not a frequent here.. I've never had a rifle built by Jon but they say his work is top notch...

 

[FourT6and2]

Nope. Factory Hornady 140 bthp, eldm and 147 elder all shoot at 2700 FPS out of mine and my buddies 26” barrels. 70 degrees sea level

Maybe you didn't read the rest of the thread. But the same ammo, 30 seconds later, shoots 2800fps in my other rifle. But maybe that barrel is fast. Plenty of other people reporting 2800fps from factory ammo though... And even if 2700 is the norm, 2600 is what I would consider SLOW. Not to mention the ACCURACY issues I was having. Doesn't matter at this point, the rifle has a new barrel on it from Bartlein, chambered by a smith who I know does good work because my other rifle from him is a laser beam.

 

[FourT6and2]

Just wondering, how well known was this smith and does he frequent this site at all? I know you don't wanna put a name on him and that's fine. I'm just hoping he's not a frequent here.. I've never had a rifle built by Jon but they say his work is top notch...

The smith has a good reputation and everybody knows the shop name. I'll leave it at that. My build is obviously a fluke because I've not heard of any problems from other people.

 

[plinkin]

The smith has a good reputation and everybody knows the shop name. I'll leave it at that. My build is obviously a fluke because I've not heard of any problems from other people.

Man that's scary, a well known company potential has their hand in this and from what I read throught the thread has basically told you to shoot it and see if it gets better. I don't mean to stir up things, I think it might warrant a mention for other people in this situation and later down the road if things like this happen again.

 

[kthomas]

Man that's scary, a well known company potential has their hand in this and from what I read throught the thread has basically told you to shoot it and see if it gets better. I don't mean to stir up things, I think it might warrant a mention for other people in this situation and later down the road if things like this happen again.

You can easily figure out who the gunsmith is if you look at his previous threads on this forum. All the information is around if you look. Took me 5 seconds to figure it out.

 

[plinkin]

You can easily figure out who the gunsmith is if you look at his previous threads on this forum. All the information is around if you look. Took me 5 seconds to figure it out.

I must not be in the know or missed it, I read the entire thread.