LPVO w/ offset red dot, why?

[rlsmith1]

Please help me understand the new trend of an LPVO with an offset red dot. Isn't the whole point of an LPVO to have a true 1x while having the ability to run magnification when needed? Adding a red dot adds cost, weight and something else to fail (and batteries to think about).

Why don't more run a 2.5-15 or 3-15 with an offset red dot if they are doing the scope / dot combo?

Not trying to stir the pot, but it seems a lot of guys have trained with a dot to do room to room stuff and would rather not transition to an LPVO for similar task. This is coming from a guy who has no real world experience, I just don't see the addition of a red dot on an LPVO necessary unless the scope doesn't go to a true 1x.

End of the day, your gear, your choice. Train hard. Want to learn more.

 

[PBWalsh]

1. RDS are still superior to a lpvo on 1x

2. Popping over to your RDS is faster than throwing your magnification ring down to 1x if you are at a higher magnification.

3. Ability to passively use NODs while maintaining the lpvo as a day optic.

 

[_Windrider_]

1. RDS are still superior to a lpvo on 1x

2. Popping over to your RDS is faster than throwing your magnification ring down to 1x if you are at a higher magnification.

3. Ability to passively use NODs while maintaining the lpvo as a day optic.

Ever tried to clear a room with an LVPO? Red dot superior for CQB

 

[NY700]

I could be wrong, but I think the OPs question isn’t one in regards to the value of the red dot, but not a question of, if you are going to have the red dot why limit your magnification.
If you are going to use a red dot for a room clearing application as referenced in the answer above why have a scope that goes down to 1x anyway.

my guess is what we are seeing is the overlapping of advancement and legacy ideas. There have been some big gains lately in advancements. I mean quality 1-10x scopes that’s huge and wasn’t a thing 10years ago.

I think what we may see is more compact like 3-15x scopes on ARs in the future with the offset red dot.. especially as the army explores larger intermediate cartridges that have greater range like the 6.8s and 6.5a

 

[_Windrider_]

I could be wrong, but I think the OPs question isn’t one in regards to the value of the red dot, but not a question of, if you are going to have the red dot why limit your magnification.
If you are going to use a red dot for a room clearing application as referenced in the answer above why have a scope that goes down to 1x anyway.

my guess is what we are seeing is the overlapping of advancement and legacy ideas. There have been some big gains lately in advancements. I mean quality 1-10x scopes that’s huge and wasn’t a thing 10years ago.

I think what we may see is more compact like 3-15x scopes on ARs in the future with the offset red dot.. especially as the army explores larger intermediate cartridges that have greater range like the 6.8s and 6.5a

Maybe. Many use cases. On a higher magnification optic a red dot can be used to acquire a target then easily switch to the scope. But offset on a LPVO you can switch from 1x with a limited field of view when outside, kick the door and rotate the gun 45 degrees and now you can see the whole room and have that dot

 

[Sixfivesavage]

QD mounts suck, so run a direct bolt mount. Then you can't use BUIS so run a red dot of some sort on top or offset so you have redundancy.

 

[RedDirtRifleman]

I could be wrong, but I think the OPs question isn’t one in regards to the value of the red dot, but not a question of, if you are going to have the red dot why limit your magnification.
If you are going to use a red dot for a room clearing application as referenced in the answer above why have a scope that goes down to 1x anyway.

The answer to this question is that your LPVO is going to be set up in the ideal position on top of your rifle, the way a rifle is meant to be held. Rolling over for an offset dot has ergonomic sacrifices. Maybe not huge ones, but significant enough that people still want a 1x option in their primary sight, and the dot is only for “oh shit” moments.

my guess is what we are seeing is the overlapping of advancement and legacy ideas. There have been some big gains lately in advancements. I mean quality 1-10x scopes that’s huge and wasn’t a thing 10years ago.

I think what we may see is more compact like 3-15x scopes on ARs in the future with the offset red dot.. especially as the army explores larger intermediate cartridges that have greater range like the 6.8s and 6.5a

I think you’re probably right about this. The pressure was on the industry to stretch the LPVO as far as possible. Now we’re starting to see demand for mid-power optics to pair with dots as people go “eh” at the diminishing returns of 1-8s and 1-10s.

But that’s the great thing, there’s no single right answer.

 

[rlsmith1]

1. RDS are still superior to a lpvo on 1x

2. Popping over to your RDS is faster than throwing your magnification ring down to 1x if you are at a higher magnification.

3. Ability to passively use NODs while maintaining the lpvo as a day optic.

@NY700 is correct, why limit the mag if you are going to just roll to the red dot anyway?

I completely agree with 3 but my preference would probably be a RMR type at the 12 o'clock for passive aiming. Super limited experience here and I know facial structure makes a difference here.

So the offset red dot gives a great(er) FOV than a LPVO, but the LPVO, laser and light limit FOV anyway when mounted at 45 degrees right? Seems like it would close the gap a little bit.

 

[Johnny00K]

My experience is FOV is much better with a NF 1-8 than with a Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint. I much prefer the NF 1-8 as a red dot than any other red dots I have run including RMRs. I don't understand the offset dot other than have one optic at 1x and the other at 8x or whatever and that doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[skipjack]

My experience is FOV is much better with a NF 1-8 than with a Trijicon MRO or Aimpoint. I much prefer the NF 1-8 as a red dot than any other red dots I have run including RMRs. I don't understand the offset dot other than have one optic at 1x and the other at 8x or whatever and that doesn't make much sense to me.

Are you using your red dots with both eyes open? I know for me I have way more fov with mine than any scope I own.

 

[Johnny00K]

Are you using your red dots with both eyes open? I know for me I have way more fov with mine than any scope I own.

Yes, both eyes wide open. I shoot almost everything that way except ELR which I do 1 1/2 eyes open.

 

[SmartDonkey]

I use that setup so my shoulder devil has something to look through and can give me his input...

 

[erwos]

I run offset red dots with a couple of my LPVOs as combination backup sights / quick transition 1x. I would argue that the primary issue with using a 2-12x or 3-18x with an offset red dot as the primary 1x solution is really practicality, at least if your use case involves being at 1x 75% or more of the time.

Using the offset as your primary is, in my view, not a great experience. Your LPVO is blocking half your FOV. You're canting your rifle, which isn't comfortable for long periods of time (or for bringing up from a low ready), especially with 24-30oz of optic unbalancing it. Your compensator will probably not work right due to canting.

Now if you're running at 12x-18x 75% of the time, sure, this makes more sense. But if that's the case, were you even really in the market for an LPVO to begin with?

 

[Johnny00K]

Once could argue that once you enter the 12x + range that the L in LPVO might no longer apply.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

An additional note from someone that uses this setup on a few guns: if you do your job right and set it up correctly, the red dot can be used as a rough alignment tool to get you very near target, then when you roll back to the primary optic, you are in the field of view. This can be much faster than searching for the target with a far more narrow FOV magnifying optic. For me, it works a lot like the rough aiming point of an astronomical telescope, then you switch to higher mag to get dead nutz.

As said before, the job determines the tool, not the other way around. Additionally, look how 10 snake-eaters set up their guns and they will be different to some degree - so there is no "this is the best setup" that works for everyone.

 

[rlsmith1]

Lots of good insight here, thanks guys. I think that if the 2.5-15 and 3-18 scopes get to be close to 25oz, the weight difference becomes negligible especially for the capability you gain.

I guess on a gun already setup for NVG shooting, there should be a laser on board. What are the downsides to using a laser rather than red dot?

 

[erwos]

An additional note from someone that uses this setup on a few guns: if you do your job right and set it up correctly, the red dot can be used as a rough alignment tool to get you very near target, then when you roll back to the primary optic, you are in the field of view. This can be much faster than searching for the target with a far more narrow FOV magnifying optic. For me, it works a lot like the rough aiming point of an astronomical telescope, then you switch to higher mag to get dead nutz.

The Leupold D-EVO works using this principle, and it's astonishingly fast to get on target as a result. (Obviously, that's only 6x.)

 

[PBWalsh]

@rlsmith1

I agree with what you and others are saying in regards to the reasoning to bot go lpvo when you have an offset rds. I personally run a TA31 ACOG and would like an RMR off the side. Personally, I’m toying around the idea of a 16” Recee type with a 2-10ish optic and offset RMR. If I’m paying a weight penalty (~23oz), I might as well get a solid objective size and upper end magnification.

 

[Burdy]

This has been addressed. We run Red Dots on top of LPVOs because no company makes great lightweight FFP 2.5-15's yet.

 

[strikeeagle1]

At the Rogers Shooting School the students engage10" reactive steel targets @ 150 meters in sub-second time frames with simple red dot optics like Aimpoint T-2's with 16" 5.56's. Seems plenty fast enough. No mention of flip over aimpoint 3x magnifiers combined with red dots; I have used them on 16" carbines and 11" Noveske N4, I would suggest that is plenty of optic to manage the entire working range of an SBR.

No one has mentioned low power red dot / scopes, S&B 1.1-4X short dot and 1-8X dual CC; here on .300 BO SBR and 11" 6.8 Wilson Combat SBR; shoot both with eyes open.

And then there is a higher power optic with red dot offset, e.g. S&B with offset T-2, set the power on the scope to the most likely engagement power needed, perhaps beyond 150 meters, then train.

Setup most of them with micro BUIS either offset (Barry Dueck's) or in-line, although the utility of BUIS is seemingly becoming obsolete concept with reliability of powered optics.

QD mounts like GDI and LaRue are excellent choices for optic mounting in these situations.

So there are LVPO optics with red dots integrated within, just have to get off the wallet to have the combination. The offset combination is generally due to prohibitive economics of purchasing the integrated optic system.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Larue is one of the worst Optic mounts for a bunch of reasons. If you are going QD, go Bobro or GDI. The rest is different shades of shit.

 

[AllGoodThings]

Larue is one of the worst Optic mounts for a bunch of reasons. If you are going QD, go Bobro or GDI. The rest is different shades of shit.

Worst for magnified optics, red dots, both? Return to zero issues or something else? I've been out of the game for quite a few years, but I remember at some point LaRue mounts were considered solid and gtg. Can someone please update me as to the reason this has changed?

I recently bought their 50 bmg mount with triple throw levers and am wondering if I should get rid of it.

 

[thehun]

This is why I really like the Elcan TR...true 1x...great 3X and plenty usable 9x capability in an all in one package with minimal snag points. Perfect in ways for a DMR setup (not for an all outright precision rig).

 

[Night Vision Viking]

With two podiums at IPSC World Shoot I can tell you why.

Sometimes we get targets at 100-300+ meters and another one close by.

So you shoot the distant with your main optics at 6-8x and switch to the red dot on your way in or out.

Or you can spend 1-2 seconds changint back and forth and lose the match.

That's one example, but there are more.

PS IMO it is better to shoot close targets with your main optic if there's a run n gun stage, and not use the red dot.
Moving targets, sometimes better with the red dot, but depends on distance.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

For long range shooting I use a 5-25 or similar for main and a red dot at 12 o clock.
This is more or less only used to aim roughly and then go down into that sweet magnification.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Worst for magnified optics, red dots, both? Return to zero issues or something else? I've been out of the game for quite a few years, but I remember at some point LaRue mounts were considered solid and gtg. Can someone please update me as to the reason this has changed?

I recently bought their 50 bmg mount with triple throw levers and am wondering if I should get rid of it.

15-20 years ago when your options were craptastic A.R.M.S. which would break if you looked at them wrong, Larue was the only option.

There is mountains of information about it if you take the time to do your own research, Not going to regurgitate it all here.

Bottom line, they are one of the worst when it comes to RTZ, Are a piss poor rail destroying design that requires tools, has little purchase area on rail.

There are MUCH better designs that have been independently tested by the DOD and various public institutions to be vastly superior.

Bobro followed by GDI had the closest RTZ of any tested.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

With two podiums at IPSC World Shoot I can tell you why.

Sometimes we get targets at 100-300+ meters and another one close by.

So you shoot the distant with your main optics at 6-8x and switch to the red dot on your way in or out.

Or you can spend 1-2 seconds changint back and forth and lose the match.

That's one example, but there are more.

PS IMO it is better to shoot close targets with your main optic if there's a run n gun stage, and not use the red dot.
Moving targets, sometimes better with the red dot, but depends on distance.

I think there are kinda 2 schools of thought. One for the game world and one for the face shooting world, with some overlap.

The red dot makes a very good spotter. Helps get you on target faster and rotate gun and target is in magnified optic. The speed thing as well.

As mentioned, under NV it also gives you a quicker backup to your laser or if you are under IR discipline. In the future as NV becomes more prolific around the world, running around with a bunch of IR lasers is like screaming Hey guys we are here from Miles away.

 

[strikeeagle1]

Larue is one of the worst Optic mounts for a bunch of reasons. If you are going QD, go Bobro or GDI. The rest is different shades of shit.

There are often two sides of a story.

It has been my observation that there are a lot of LaRue equipment haters that have never purchased one or used one, but rather just endlessly regurgitate the dark side internet gossip about the products. Much of the gossip relates to "rail gouging" and not optic mount return to zero issues, with the rail issues often due to inappropriate tension settings of the mounts or low quality rail assemblies v. steel cam locking mechanism of the mounts.

If I thought LaRue mfg. poor mounts I would have not purchased mount #2, or mount #10, at last count I own 34 LaRue mounts. Just one brand of many optic mount mfg. I have invested in.

When Army service members Giannelli & Homeyer won the 2010 International Sniper Competition using LaRue 16"-18" 7.62 OBR's with Night Force scopes (Horus 37 /58 reticles) and LaRue LT111 quick-disconnect mounts, it got the attention of the shooting community on a number of levels. They were getting 90% first round hits @ 800 -900 meters on 12" plates.

I assembled a similar rifle system with a S&B 5-25x56 Horus H59 reticle that was able to easily replicate their results.

Bryan Litz used the LaRue OBR rifle & mounts for his long range shooting data acquisition.

That is all.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

There are often two sides of a story.

It has been my observation that there are a lot of LaRue equipment haters that have never purchased one or used one, but rather just endlessly regurgitate the dark side internet gossip about the products. Much of the gossip relates to "rail gouging" and not optic mount return to zero issues, with the rail issues often due to inappropriate tension settings of the mounts or low quality rail assemblies v. steel cam locking mechanism of the mounts.

If I thought LaRue mfg. poor mounts I would have not purchased mount #2, or mount #10, at last count I own 34 LaRue mounts. Just one brand of many optic mount mfg. I have invested in.

When Army service members Giannelli & Homeyer won the 2010 International Sniper Competition using LaRue 16"-18" 7.62 OBR's with Night Force scopes (Horus 37 /58 reticles) and LaRue LT111 quick-disconnect mounts, it got the attention of the shooting community on a number of levels. They were getting 90% first round hits @ 800 -900 meters on 12" plates.

I assembled a similar rifle system with a S&B 5-25x56 Horus H59 reticle that was able to easily replicate their results.

Bryan Litz used the LaRue OBR rifle & mounts for his long range shooting data acquisition.

That is all.

View attachment 7539791View attachment 7539792View attachment 7539793View attachment 7539794View attachment 7539795View attachment 7539796

I guarantee I have owned more Money in Larue Products over the years, then you probably own in total firearms. I probably currently own more money in Larue Products than you have ever owned. I got so many fucking dillos, Dillo dust and paint mixers I throw them away at this point

Your point in in 2010 blah blah blah.............over Decade ago when it was a different market. No one every said you can't shoot accurate with a Larue Mount. The issue is when you take them off and remount them, as well as the user interface for out of spec or a different spec rail.

The fact that you even have to adjust the system for it to work properly makes it obsolete.

Compared to what else is on the market and what we know today, including a 8 year old US Army study on every available QD mount at the time, Larue is an obsolete design while finishing among the bottom of the pack in RTZ. It has not been updated or improved in 15 years. Would you say a 2005 Ford F250 has more power than a 2021 F250? No because its retarded.

 

[sheepdog697]

night vision bro.

 

[beetroot]

With two podiums at IPSC World Shoot I can tell you why.

Sometimes we get targets at 100-300+ meters and another one close by.

So you shoot the distant with your main optics at 6-8x and switch to the red dot on your way in or out.

Or you can spend 1-2 seconds changint back and forth and lose the match.

That's one example, but there are more.

PS IMO it is better to shoot close targets with your main optic if there's a run n gun stage, and not use the red dot.
Moving targets, sometimes better with the red dot, but depends on distance.

So if your not ever going to use your LVPO on 1x as the RDS is faster why not a 2-12ish DMR scope with a RDS.
Seems pointless to buy a 1-x scope if you're never going to use it on 1x.

I get that there aren't many viable options in the 2-12ish zoom range but thats because folk aren't buying them as they are buying LVPOs, that they inevitably aren't going to use on 1x anyway....

 

[beetroot]

This has been addressed. We run Red Dots on top of LPVOs because no company makes great lightweight FFP 2.5-15's yet.

Funnily enough companies aren't investing money into decent 2-12ish scopes because most people are buying LVPOs instead.
The lack of high end DMR/MVPOs has come up a few times in recent years and it seems like a catch 22 situation.

People aren't buying 2-10/12 scopes because none of the ones on the market do what they want, and manufacturers aren't spending the money to develop them because no one is buying them.

 

[Jamesr1]

I run an off set red dot with a 3-15 scope on my rifle works out pretty well actually.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

I’ll let Kevin explain. Start at 7:00 min

 

[PBWalsh]

@beetroot

I agree. I’d kill for a 2.5-10x32mm type FFP, mil/mil, zerostop, illumination, <12, and <20oz. Basically a NXS 2.5-10x32 but with a FFP. For some reason, manufacturers do most of it right, but miss key features. They’ll do features but miss weight (Vortex PST gen2 2-10) or miss FFP (Leupold Mk-3HD 3-9).

That optic with an offset RMR/T2 would be tits. I‘d build a rifle around it.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

So if your not ever going to use your LVPO on 1x as the RDS is faster why not a 2-12ish DMR scope with a RDS.
Seems pointless to buy a 1-x scope if you're never going to use it on 1x.

I get that there aren't many viable options in the 2-12ish zoom range but thats because folk aren't buying them as they are buying LVPOs, that they inevitably aren't going to use on 1x anyway....

Did you even read everything? I use my LVPO on 1x A LOT. In my opinion it is faster on a run n gun and speed shoots than shooting with a tilted gun and a red dot, even with low recoil 223.

Each stage is different. Most of the time I use the LVPO only, but the bigger matches usually forces you to switch optics between shots. Russia World Shoot had a lot of that, Sweden WS not as much.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

And a lot of 2-10/12x optics have stupid reticles (hunting) and are too big and heavy for practical shooting.

For a precision rifle it's different.

 

[erwos]

Each stage is different. Most of the time I use the LVPO only, but the bigger matches usually forces you to switch optics between shots. Russia World Shoot had a lot of that, Sweden WS not as much.

In my much more limited experience, there are also not a lot of local matches forcing you to go near/far immediately between arrays due to space constraints, at least anywhere near an urban area.

 

[Burdy]

Funnily enough companies aren't investing money into decent 2-12ish scopes because most people are buying LVPOs instead.
The lack of high end DMR/MVPOs has come up a few times in recent years and it seems like a catch 22 situation.

People aren't buying 2-10/12 scopes because none of the ones on the market do what they want, and manufacturers aren't spending the money to develop them because no one is buying them.

100% agree. I don't bitch too much about it because I feel like if they developed EXACTLY what I wanted for this purpose, only me and a handful of people would purchase it. IMO, this type of optic done right with a piggy backed MRDS would be the holy grail combination for the all purpose lightweight carbine.

Did you even read everything? I use my LVPO on 1x A LOT. In my opinion it is faster on a run n gun and speed shoots than shooting with a tilted gun and a red dot, even with low recoil 223.

Each stage is different. Most of the time I use the LVPO only, but the bigger matches usually forces you to switch optics between shots. Russia World Shoot had a lot of that, Sweden WS not as much.

Thats because you are comparing it with a 45 degree red dot. If you piggy back it up top over a lower LPVO mount, your LPVO will not be faster at 1x and your transitions between the two optics will be a bit more natural. It will also allow you to use both optics support side, or grounded on either side, something a 45 mount wont allow. I won't say the transition will necessarily be faster, I have seen some guys work between a 45 and LPVO very quickly but I do find it a more natural transition up top.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

100% agree. I don't bitch too much about it because I feel like if they developed EXACTLY what I wanted for this purpose, only me and a handful of people would purchase it. IMO, this type of optic done right with a piggy backed MRDS would be the holy grail combination for the all purpose lightweight carbine.

Thats because you are comparing it with a 45 degree red dot. If you piggy back it up top over a lower LPVO mount, your LPVO will not be faster at 1x and your transitions between the two optics will be a bit more natural. It will also allow you to use both optics support side, or grounded on either side, something a 45 mount wont allow. I won't say the transition will necessarily be faster, I have seen some guys work between a 45 and LPVO very quickly but I do find it a more natural transition up top.

Nice build. What mount are you using for that RDS at the 12:00 on the scope?

 

[thehun]

Larue cantilever mounts flex...heck...you can see it if you put moderate pressure on the bell of the optic. Gave up on SPR mounts a long time ago. Their mounts without cantilever are still ok. But there are a lot better mounts anymore than Larue.

 

[Night Vision Viking]

Thats because you are comparing it with a 45 degree red dot. If you piggy back it up top over a lower LPVO mount, your LPVO will not be faster at 1x and your transitions between the two optics will be a bit more natural. It will also allow you to use both optics support side, or grounded on either side, something a 45 mount wont allow. I won't say the transition will necessarily be faster, I have seen some guys work between a 45 and LPVO very quickly but I do find it a more natural transition up top.

My red dot on the LVPO uses the Spuhr solution. It's not 45 degrees in my case, it's just a short tilt, perhaps 20 degrees (without looking/knowing/measuring).

We also use a local gunsmith's solution for the Aimpoint Micro H2, with it mounted on the picatinny rail, really close to the eye by the charging handle. Works as well. It's what I used in the last World Shoot.

Top position 12 o clock is for Long Range shooting imo. I never see it on practical shooting rifles, only LE/MIL battle rifles.

 

[rlsmith1]

The problem with a lightweight 2-12 is you can get a great 1-10 or even 1-8 in an LPVO. Of course, optical construction will be better on the 2-12 but that would be in extreme cases. That's why a switch to a 2.5-15 or 3-18 would be truly advantageous.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

@beetroot

I agree. I’d kill for a 2.5-10x32mm type FFP, mil/mil, zerostop, illumination, <12, and <20oz. Basically a NXS 2.5-10x32 but with a FFP. For some reason, manufacturers do most of it right, but miss key features. They’ll do features but miss weight (Vortex PST gen2 2-10) or miss FFP (Leupold Mk-3HD 3-9).

That optic with an offset RMR/T2 would be tits. I‘d build a rifle around it.

D24V42FIML (MIL, Tactical, Illumi) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site

marchscopes.com

 

[beetroot]

Did you even read everything? I use my LVPO on 1x A LOT. In my opinion it is faster on a run n gun and speed shoots than shooting with a tilted gun and a red dot, even with low recoil 223.

Each stage is different. Most of the time I use the LVPO only, but the bigger matches usually forces you to switch optics between shots. Russia World Shoot had a lot of that, Sweden WS not as much.

I saw your post about the run and gun after posting....

Looks like there is good reason to run a RDS and LVPO but theres also plenty of reasons not to.
If nothing else this thread does show that there is a market for a good lightweight MPVOs (like I've thought for years).

 

[Burdy]

Nice build. What mount are you using for that RDS at the 12:00 on the scope?

Reptilia

 

[Burdy]

D24V42FIML (MIL, Tactical, Illumi) | MARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design CorporationMARCH Scopes | DEON Optical Design Corporation

MARCH Scopes Official Site

marchscopes.com

Almost there. A 2-16 that snuck under 20oz and a center dot would be perfect. But.....thats a heck of a lightweight precision hunting scope feature set for sure.

 

[strikeeagle1]

I guarantee I have owned more Money in Larue Products over the years, then you probably own in total firearms. I probably currently own more money in Larue Products than you have ever owned. I got so many fucking dillos, Dillo dust and paint mixers I throw them away at this point.

Why is it that in attempting to engage in some civil debate about products, some members just revert to employing f&^King this and that, as though that elevates the stock in their point of view.

Well, I'm also sure your Johnson is twice is long as mine and you are a nationally recognized rifle shooter. with a real name. As for dillo's, just a few I haven't already used as christmas tree ornaments, LOL!

Maybe you can reference some nationally recognized shooters that used LaRue mounts and failed miserably because of the mount; I be standing by for that information.

 

[Choid]

Dillo Dust is legitimately good.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Dillo Dust is legitimately good.

Its bassicaly lowreys season salt plus sugar. Fat people like it.