Lyman TargetSpot question

[pitspitr]

I was going to post this question in P Mac's M-70 thread, but thought better of hijacking it and decided to ask in a separate thread instead.

In the last few months I've bought a couple of commercial Lyman scopes. The latest was just last night. I bought a very low 4 digit serial# 12X Super TargetSpot on Ebay for what seemed like to me a very low price. Obviously, I haven't held it yet so can't offer any more information than that.

The other is the root of my question. It is marked "TargetSpot," not "Super TargetSpot." It came in a nice old factory oak carrying box that is also marked TargetSpot. My question is this; This scope is marked 15X but it was my understanding that Lyman only made the TargetSpot in 6x, 8x, and 10X, but that the Super TargetSpots went up to 20X. Is this some kind of early or transition STS or was the information I had about the TS simply incorrect?

Thanks in advance for the information. This place is simply incredible for the amount of knowledge here

 

[buffalowinter]

Targetspots were 8, and 10. Junior Targetspots, were 6, 8, and 10. Super Targsetpots were 10, 12, 15, 20, 25, and 30. The ocular's were interchangeable and could be purchased separately. Someone upgraded by purchasing a 15x ocular.

 

[FatBoy]

Would be awesome if the origin eyepiece was in the box too, but someone’s grandkid probably used it to play outside one day and it’s gone forever….

 

[pitspitr]

So what you guys are saying is that if I could find an 8x ocular I could down grade it and make it legal for vintage sniper matches?

 

[DanGroves]

Interesting information here. I have a TargetSpot and it has a 10 power ocular. I assume it is all original in the wooden box.

 

[buffalowinter]

So what you guys are saying is that if I could find an 8x ocular I could down grade it and make it legal for vintage sniper matches?

Yes.
Table 7-- Vintage Sniper Rifles and Scopes Rifles Scopes United States:
United States: .30-06 cal. 1941A1 Springfield (C stock, Standard 1903 sights with Unertl type scope on Unertl type mounts and bases):

Winchester A5, Winchester B5, Winchester B3 USMC original issue: Unertl 8X Sniper Telescope Non-issue scopes: Unertl, Lyman or Fekker 6X or 8X scope with up to a 1.5” objective; Leatherwood Malcolm 3X, 6X or 8X Note: All scopes must have external adjustment and no recoil spring

 

[Defender3]

Thread Hijack - I have a really nice 8x Junior Targetspot, #5978. I've been trying to find a date of manufacture / serial number list on the net with no luck - anyone have an idea the DOM or happen to have the Lyman serial number zip file that used to be floating on the web?

TIA

 

[pitspitr]

A couple more questions.
1 What is the difference/reasons for a different model between the Target Spot and the Super Target Spot?

2 Who word be the go to vendor who might have an 8X ocular?

Defender,
No problem with the Hijack. I learn stuff from other peoples' questions too!

 

[Defender3]

A couple more questions.
1 What is the difference/reasons for a different model between the Target Spot and the Super Target Spot?

2 Who word be the go to vendor who might have an 8X ocular?

Defender,
No problem with the Hijack. I learn stuff from other peoples' questions too!

I do also, appreciate it.

FWIW - You may try the CMP forums and eBay, but they may be hard to locate or command a higher price due to people in the same situation.

 

[pitspitr]

Good ideas. Thank you

 

[FatBoy]

If you could find a vendor to make 8x eyepieces that dude would have plenty of short term business. This is probably an opportunity for someone, but they’d have to be expensive as there is going to be limited clientele and once they have their scopes converted it’ll dry up forever.


The 8x Malcolm availability would hurt as well. These are turning out to be a pretty good scope. I have some issues with the locking screw on the elevation turret but otherwise it’s solid and affordable.

 

[Random Guy]

I don't know the difference b/t a TargetSpot and SuperTarget Spot. I had a 10x SuperTarget Spot that I sold a few years ago after I replaced it with a vintage 10x Unertl scope on my M70, but in retrospect I think the Lyman was a better/brighter scope and I should have kept it. I think it's objective lens is slightly bigger than the Unertl. Attached is a pic, and I had a manual for the regular Target Spot that I had found on eBay. I have not seen any rear oculars for sale re these old scopes, but I suppose its possible. (I use a Leatherwood USMC replica 8x scope on my M1903 sniper, it works well).

 

[five 0]

According to Strobebel's book Old Rifle Scopes the difference between the Targetspot and Super Targetspot is 22 inches in length for the Targetspot and 24.375 for the Super Targetspot.

 

[pitspitr]

Thanks guys. I knew this would be a good place to ask.

If you could find a vendor to make 8x eyepieces that dude would have plenty of short term business. This is probably an opportunity for someone, but they’d have to be expensive as there is going to be limited clientele and once they have their scopes converted it’ll dry up forever.


The 8x Malcolm availability would hurt as well. These are turning out to be a pretty good scope. I have some issues with the locking screw on the elevation turret but otherwise it’s solid and affordable.

I knew it would be a long shot, but I still had to ask, right?

I have one of the Leatherwood/Hi-Lux Malcom's. The glass appears to be good enough, but I've been disappointed in the mounts and metal. I'm sure part of those woes have been operator error, both mine and the PO. The threads on the ocular lock nut stripped out. The objective lock/sunshield felt like it had stripped threads as well, but when I took it off it appears that it's just that it had metal shavings in the threads. I shipped it this morning to Iron Sight to get it serviced. Hopefully they'll be able to bring it back from being a glorified paper weight to being functional. If they can it will be what I use in competition and I'll just use the 2 Lyman's here at home testing loads and shooting farther that 600. I should have the 12X STS in my hands Monday so I won't have to wait until I get the other ones back (probably) in February.

This is one of the few times I wish I'd just bought new instead of saving a few bucks with a used one.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Thanks guys. I knew this would be a good place to ask.

I knew it would be a long shot, but I still had to ask, right?

I have one of the Leatherwood/Hi-Lux Malcom's. The glass appears to be good enough, but I've been disappointed in the mounts and metal. I'm sure part of those woes have been operator error, both mine and the PO. The threads on the ocular lock nut stripped out. The objective lock/sunshield felt like it had stripped threads as well, but when I took it off it appears that it's just that it had metal shavings in the threads. I shipped it this morning to Iron Sight to get it serviced. Hopefully they'll be able to bring it back from being a glorified paper weight to being functional. If they can it will be what I use in competition and I'll just use the 2 Lyman's here at home testing loads and shooting farther that 600. I should have the 12X STS in my hands Monday so I won't have to wait until I get the other ones back (probably) in February.

This is one of the few times I wish I'd just bought new instead of saving a few bucks with a used one.

Most reviews of the Leatherwood scopes point out the mounts as being real under par, from what I've seen.

But unless I'm mistaken, Montana Vintage Arms makes some vastly better received mounts that should be compatible with the scope. They make copies of the Winchester A & B scopes, as well.

 

[FatBoy]

There is an option to buy upgraded mounts now. It’s an extra $150-$200 but it’s worth it.

 

[pitspitr]

There is an option to buy upgraded mounts now. It’s an extra $150-$200 but it’s worth it.

At MVA?

 

[Son of Dorn]

At MVA?

I apologize, I believe I was mistaken that MVA sells their mounts separately. But it wouldn't hurt to check with them if you're interested and you might be able to find someone reselling them. DZ Arms offers a set of similar mounts that fit the MVA scopes and I would imagine they'd fit your scope too (but I'd check first to make sure).

I'm glad to hear from some of y'all that the Hi-Lux/Leatherwood 8X USCMC scopes aren't so bad as they've been made out to be. I have a Springfield 1903A3 rebuild project I'm musing over (buffalowinter might remember it) and having an acceptable repro scope for it would be nice if I can't find an original or want something more replaceable.

 

[FatBoy]

Creedmoor sports sells the scope with standard or upgraded mounts. Even with the upgraded mounts I have had my elevation turret slip. The flathead screws are very shallow so be careful when you reset your turrets. For $800 it’s a decent alternative , though for the same money I have a 16x Unertl and a 15x STS that I’d prefer to use and have an American scope on an American rifle.

 

[pitspitr]

Yeah, I have as much used in the Hi-Lux as I do in my 12X STS (more by the time I get it repaired) and almost as much as in my 15X TS. If either of those 2 were VS legal I'd be using them instead

 

[pitspitr]

The new to me 12X STS is in hand ( well actually it's mounted on the '03 /1941 replica) . Please explain the parallax adjustment scale. It only goes to 200 but I want to set it at 600. Is the scale on the ring on yards?

 

[FatBoy]

It’ll adjust out. Ignore the lines, just set it the old fashion way, head wigglin’.

 

[pitspitr]

I can do that. Thanks. I just thought I might be able to get it "close" using the scale

 

[pitspitr]

Another question:
Is there a good book specifically about Lyman scopes?

 

[camocorvette]

Here's some PDF manuals

My apologies I could not find any lyman specific books. I'm sure they are out there.

 

[Defender3]

According to Strobebel's book Old Rifle Scopes the difference between the Targetspot and Super Targetspot is 22 inches in length for the Targetspot and 24.375 for the Super Targetspot.

If anyone is wondering, the Junior TS is 21 inches in length.

 

[pitspitr]

Here's some PDF manuals

My apologies I could not find any lyman specific books. I'm sure they are out there.

That's Awesome! Thanks

Most reviews of the Leatherwood scopes point out the mounts as being real under par, from what I've seen.

But unless I'm mistaken, Montana Vintage Arms makes some vastly better received mounts that should be compatible with the scope. They make copies of the Winchester A & B scopes, as well.

So now you have me thinking. If I can put the Hi-Lux in other peoples' mounts, can I put it in the STS mounts? I already have them and I LIKE THEM

 

[pitspitr]

OH and BTW, here's a picture of the latest Lyman mounted on the 1941 replica

 

[Son of Dorn]

That's Awesome! Thanks

So now you have me thinking. If I can put the Hi-Lux in other peoples' mounts, can I put it in the STS mounts? I already have them and I LIKE THEM

I would think so. But I can't say if it'd be a perfect fit or competition-legal.

 

[Random Guy]

CMP 2020-21 rulebook, page 57

Winchester A5, Winchester B5,
Winchester B3
USMC original issue: Unertl 8X
Sniper Telescope
Non-issue scopes: Unertl, Lyman or
Fekker 6X or 8X scope with up to a
1.5” objective; Leatherwood Malcolm
3X, 6X or 8X
Note: All scopes must have external
adjustment and no recoil spring.

I guess if the Lyman has a 1.5" or less objective its legal. The mounts can be swapped, and I know a guy with a Hi-Lux who uses a vintage Unertl mount as the clicks are more precise. Hi-Lux came out with a competition mount for their 8x scope for the same reason - improved click precision.

 

[FatBoy]

My buddy Tim did this to his Original Malcolm. The first mounts were soft and his lacked clicks so he went to Unertl mounts. The issue he had is the Pope rail on the Malcom is a little smaller than the bushing on the front mount so when he pulled the scope back after recoil he also had to give it a quick turn left. If forgotten you will throw a shot at 600 yards, which is where we do our vintage stuff.

He fixed this by machining a new bushing for the front mount and stoning it to fit the rail then swapping it out. Pretty clever for an 18B/Z (ret)…

 

[Son of Dorn]

CMP 2020-21 rulebook, page 57

I guess if the Lyman has a 1.5" or less objective its legal. The mounts can be swapped, and I know a guy with a Hi-Lux who uses a vintage Unertl mount as the clicks are more precise. Hi-Lux came out with a competition mount for their 8x scope for the same reason - improved click precision.

Why DO the CMP rules disallow the recoil spring, anyway?

 

[pitspitr]

Probably about the same reason they don't allow a straight stocked 1903 with an A5 Winchester. Or maybe the guy who wrote the rules had the Unertl but didn't have a spring.

 

[Random Guy]

Why DO the CMP rules disallow the recoil spring, anyway?

Simple. Because the USMC removed the recoil springs from all their 8x Unertl scopes prior to installing them on the M1903 rifles. Hence you will not find a vintage picture of that scope with its recoil spring. Back in 1942/43, it was apparently thought the spring might bind/get bound-up/break or otherwise cause a functioning issue, and it was thought that it might also snag on vegetation as well. Thus a recoil spring is not "historically" correct on a replica of USMC M1903 sniper rifle. Recoil springs are seen on USMC target rifles with that scope, but apparently not on combat rifles.

FYI, here's a WWII pic of two USMC snipers, the rifle on the right has probably just been fired - as you can see the scope is in the forward position and needs to be manually retracted by the Marine shooter. Rifle on left has likely not been fired yet - as the scope is still in the normal position. Again, I've never seen a vintage picture of a USMC M1903 sniper rifle in combat in WWII or Korea with a recoil spring installed on its USMC 8x Unertl scope...

 

[Son of Dorn]

Probably about the same reason they don't allow a straight stocked 1903 with an A5 Winchester. Or maybe the guy who wrote the rules had the Unertl but didn't have a spring.

You mean like this one...?

ULTRA RARE US WW1 USMC 1903 SPRINGFIELD SNIPER RIFLE WITH WINCHESTER A5 SCOPE - Pre98 Antiques

This U.S. Model 1903 rifle was manufactured by the Springfield Armory in late October of 1917. This rifle is fitted with

pre98.com

@Random Guy Ah right, gotcha. Shoulda known that but I wasn't sure if it was a universal removal across all the USMC rifles.

 

[Random Guy]

Probably about the same reason they don't allow a straight stocked 1903 with an A5 Winchester.

If someone showed up and wanted to shoot a straight stock 1903 with the proper A5 vintage optic, I'm pretty CMP staff would not turn them away, as long as the rifle passed the trigger pull safety test. Everyone uses a "C" stock because it has better ergonomics and you can get them in new condition. The old straight stocks are antiques, but if someone showed up with either of the rifles in the attached pic, I'm 99% sure they be allowed to compete. (Although not recommended w/ such rare and fragile scopes!). BTW, one of those rifles was sold via a CMP auction w/ the vintage scope bases still intact...

 

[pitspitr]

I'm collecting parts to build a replica 1903/A5.(I accidentally won an A5 on eBay) CMP said they, the straight stock, aren't currently allowed but I could petition them to change the rules, so I did

 

[FatBoy]

I love the straight stocks with finger grooves.

 

[Random Guy]

CMP said they, the straight stock, aren't currently allowed but I could petition them to change the rules, so I did

That makes no sense unless they accidentally forgot to include any of the WWI era American M1903 sniper rifles - all of which had straight stocks.
The rules allow WWI British P14 sniper rifles w/ the 1918 scope, and even list the WWI Canadian Ross Mark III rifle w/ 1913 Warner Swazey scope(!)

Not that anyone would be insane enough to show up at a CMP Vintage Sniper Match with a WWI era M1903 restored into a sniper rifle with the antique (and rather fragile) M1913 Warner-Swazey "Telescopic Musket Sight", but perhaps CMP left out that configuration assuming no sane person would use this configuration in a vintage sniper match? However, if you want to petition them, might as well point out that over 3k such sniper rifles were made as of 1918 and many were used in WWI. If they allow that variant, then the straight stock is included by default. (Bruce Canfield's book, 03' Springfield Service Rifle, pages 72-74, and 150-152 discusses the M1903 sniper rifle with A5 scopes - and the pics show it in a straight stock. An October 1940 memo noted that the USMC had 887 M1903 snipers on hand, and these had the A5 scopes. They were likely used in early WWII).

 

[pitspitr]

The lady I had the email conversation with said that they had already been petitioned to allow the W&S and that they would be including it in the next rule book. I would encourage others interested in this to contact CMP and share their thoughts as well. This would be the contact information"
Email: [email protected]
Phone: (256)835-8455 x540

Below is our conversation:

"Hello
I currently compete in Vintage Sniper and very much enjoy it. I do have a couple of questions/comments though.
I recently purchased a Winchester A5 scope with the intent of building a WWI vintage style sniper rifle. The rules allow the A5 on, ".30-06 cal. 1941A1 Springfield (C stock, Standard 1903 sights ..." The rifle I intend to build predates the C stock and uses the straight stock with finger grooves as documented in Collecting the American Sniper Rifle 1900 to 1945 by Joe Poyer & Craig Riesch . Could this rifle gain approved status?

Also, the spirit and intent of the game plays an important part of this discipline. It seems to me that using a B27, or a USMC "D" or "B" target would be more in keeping with the spirit of the game than using a bullseye target.

Thank you for your consideration."

"Hi,
I appreciate your inquiry, and wish I could accommodate; but all rifles must meet the current and printed standards. Any 1903 fired in VS as a 1941/A1 must be in a C stock. If you wish to submit documentation for consideration of the straight stock you are welcomed to do so, and we will be happy to discuss it the next time the rules advisors convene.
Regarding the targets, I don't necessarily disagree, but CMP maintains our stance as a strictly competition focused organization. In keeping, we are increasingly meticulous in our insistence to avoid deploying any targets that resemble the human figure. This will be a growing consideration as politics continue to evolve and we strive to maintain our place in the industry as a strictly sporting and competition focused entity. It would come as no surprise to me to see the name of this match changed in coming years to further disassociate our proceedings with any image of violence. Thus is the world we live in I suppose....
Please don't hesitate to contact me directly if you ever have any additional questions. Cheers!"

"Hi
Thank you for the reply.

I'm not talking about the 1941/1903A1 (Sniper). I am talking about the earlier, WWI era sniper rifles. What documentation would you require and how would one go about presenting it?

I understand the CMP's position on the targets and I will continue to enjoy Vintage Sniper matches regardless of the shape of the targets. However, personally, I find myself less and less willing to compromise, "If you give a mouse a cookie..."

Thank you for all the CMP does!"

"Understood. At our last meeting we agreed on the inclusion of the warner swasey variant, which would use the straight stock. This will be in next year's book, but currently ALL 03's fired in VS require the C stock per current printing. No consideration was given to the A5, It likely will still be grouped with the 1941 section. I will notate this for discussion at our next meeting."

 

[cplnorton]

About 1/4 of all real Unertl Marine Snipers known have been found in a straight stock.

Including mine which I used as patient 0 in my research of the Marine Unertl Snipers. When I found this rifle, not a lot was known about these rifles and this one rewrote most of what is known today.

I can't use it in a match and it literally is the Gold Standard when it comes to these rifles.

The stock is a Marine rifle team stock too. So it is exactly the kind of of stock that should be on an real Unertl Sniper, because all of them were former Marine team rifles before the scopes were mounted.

A lot of the Marines preferred straight stocks, so you see Marine NM 1903A1 rifles restocked into straight stocks for the Matches.

The Marines didn't receive any C stocks for their service rifles till WWII when they didn't have any choice but to take C stocks off the Army. Other than the C stocks they got on NM rifles, those were the only ones the Marines had till the 1940's.

The Marines were not fond of C stocks.

 

[pitspitr]

The stock is a Marine rifle team stock too.

How can you tell? The reason I ask isn't that I doubt you. The reverse is exactly true. I KNOW you know what you are talking about. The reason I ask is that I have an old straight stock with finger grooves that I bought on Ebay. It has a chip out of the heal and it may have cracked and been repaired near the recess for the rear sight. Anyway it has been relieved around the rear sight and the barrel has been free floated up to about 2" of the front of the stock and it has the little half moon recess for the bolt. Ever since I read your articles on usmcweaponry.com I've wondered if there was any way to tell if the modifications were performed by an armorer or if it was done after it left the service.

Also I wonder if it might help things along if someone of your researching stature might lend your voice to the petitioners requesting the ability to use straight stocks with finger grooves in CMP VS matches

 

[pitspitr]

Update:

I see by the current rulebook that the 1903 A5 is finally approved for use in Vintage Sniper competitions!

Thank you to everyone who also contacted them regarding the 1903/A5

 

[FatBoy]

Update:

I see by the current rulebook that the 1903 A5 is finally approved for use in Vintage Sniper competitions!

Thank you to everyone who also contacted them regarding the 1903/A5

CMP? You have a link?

 

[6.5SH]

CMP? You have a link?

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/CMPGamesRuleChanges.pdf

 

[pitspitr]

And here:

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/CMPGamesRules.pdf

 

[FatBoy]

Thank you.

I really like the straight stocks with finger grooves. Nice that they have added these early rifles. I’d give one a go, but I’m fairly certain the 8x is advantage. As long as I remember to pull it back

 

[pitspitr]

I hear you, but I'm getting old enough that I'm also fairly certain that the rifle or scope isn't going to be the limiting factor of where I place. I'm sort of getting to where I'm just sort of happy to be an "Also Ran".

I use the 1941 replica with it's 8X at 600 and plan to use the 1903 A5 at 300 with the 1903 A4 as a backup

 

[FatBoy]

I hear you, but I'm getting old enough that I'm also fairly certain that the rifle or scope isn't going to be the limiting factor of where I place. I'm sort of getting to where I'm just sort of happy to be an "Also Ran".

I use the 1941 replica with it's 8X at 600 and plan to use the 1903 A5 at 300 with the 1903 A4 as a backup

We run a Wood and Steel match during our Memorial match for Dean Herron. 3 x 600. Vintage sniper, iron sight Garand 30-06 or MIA, K31, Swedish Mauser, etc. Has to meet vintage sniper or Service Rifle rules, and is shot from a sling and coat.

The 03 is a bad ass rifle off bags. I can generally keep it sub MOA with the Criterion barrel and hand loaded 168s. Out of the shoulder I struggle. I have a very difficult time keeping my sling tension consistent and that’s the death knell for a good score at 600. I need more practice, but it’s tough to dedicate time in a limited practice schedule, to a match I shoot once a year. Still, everyone should do it. It is amazing fun, and gives one a better appreciation for what those who served before us had to work with.