M110 replacement?

[jbgleason]

Looks like the Army is already looking to replace the KAC M110. Didn't this rifle with accessories cost $25K+ per unit or something crazy? Here's a link to the solicitation:

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&...re&_cview=0

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: M110 replacement?

Well that's interesting. It sounds like they're describing the SR-25 EMC, with a set of offset back up irons.

 

[zink14]

Re: M110 replacement?

I would hope they would veer away from KAC, go with a better system....

 

[jbgleason]

Re: M110 replacement?

I'm not that good with Gov speak. Does that proposal read that the new rifle has to be DI? It says the current M110 is a DI and that "the upgraded M110 must meet the operational and environmental requirements that were fulfilled by the original M110 SASS." Does that translate out to a DI or are they leaving that open?

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: M110 replacement?

I think it's open, meeting the operational and environmental requirements just means functioning under the conditions they subject the rifles to as part of the testing. I don't think a piston would be automatically disqualified from competing, but I think it's going to be at a disadvantage just based on that weight requirement. I know a piston system doesn't weigh a lot, but how many 7.62 platforms are under 9 pounds?

 

[BCP]

Re: M110 replacement?

All that says is they want a m110 that's smaller and lighter.

 

[armydog]

Re: M110 replacement?

interesting, how much weight can you save? guess if you gotta hump one through the mountains a little weight saved on a rifle can be more ammo and water you can carry, plus the fuel used to ship a plan load of them over seas, an 18inch barrel would be fine, and I can see the using a Magpul UBR stock. would be a sweet Rifle.

 

[acidone]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zink14</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would hope they would veer away from KAC, go with a better system.... </div></div>

I've seen my 22 year old cousin, an army ranger sniper, hit moving target at 800 yards with his surpressed 12" KAC. How much better do you want?

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

The current M110s are stupid expensive. We as tax payers should be more than upset at this fraud waste and abuse. Equal if not better rifles can be had at less than half the cost. The suppressors on the current (and carbine) SR-25s is not the quietest or lightest .30 cal suppressor out their either.

I know that the Larue OBR is a definite contender to take over some new government contracts. Lets just say an OBR at $2,900 + say a Surefire suppressor at $1,900 can be had for less than the cost of an SR-25 carbine WITHOUT a suppressor.

As a taxpayer, everyone on here should be demanding the Government dump the KAC contracts, unless they are dropping their price well below their competitors.

I think the total cost of my M110 was around $21,000... Really??? For what??? I could easily have a platform; capable of the same accuracy, quieter, and with the same reliability for a quarter of the cost.

STOP THE SENSELESS SPENDING!!!!!!

Just my .02 cents.

 

[TallShot]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SakoTRG FAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zink14</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would hope they would veer away from KAC, go with a better system.... </div></div>

I've seen my 22 year old cousin, an army ranger sniper, hit moving target at 800 yards with his surpressed 12" KAC. How much better do you want? </div></div>

I sincerely hope my sarcasm meter is just out of order....

 

[Pusher591]

Re: M110 replacement?

+1,000,000

 

[marshallwk]

Re: M110 replacement?

dear god please go with the obr,
but no your right, theyll probably pick another frickin knights product that we, the end users do not want. If anyone from knights is reading this; Sorry man, you had your chance and you royally missed it. Not just once but a bunch of times.

How much more expensive could you make the ar-15 platform than that m110? And for the same accuracy or even worse than a DPMS 800 dollar special? Please.

 

[armydog]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The current M110s are stupid expensive. We as tax payers should be more than upset at this fraud waste and abuse. Equal if not better rifles can be had at less than half the cost. The suppressors on the current (and carbine) SR-25s is not the quietest or lightest .30 cal suppressor out their either.

I know that the Larue OBR is a definite contender to take over some new government contracts. Lets just say an OBR at $2,900 + say a Surefire suppressor at $1,900 can be had for less than the cost of an SR-25 carbine WITHOUT a suppressor.

As a taxpayer, everyone on here should be demanding the Government dump the KAC contracts, unless they are dropping their price well below their competitors.

I think the total cost of my M110 was around $21,000... Really??? For what??? I could easily have a platform; capable of the same accuracy, quieter, and with the same reliability for a quarter of the cost.

STOP THE SENSELESS SPENDING!!!!!!

Just my .02 cents. </div></div>

You should see some of the waisted money over here, it would make you wanna go to Washington and choke some people, you think you see it at home, LOL wish i could say more but not for another 7 years.

 

[Shooter21]

Re: M110 replacement?

I was dismayed to see the USMC with a new line of M110s topped with PH glass. It's double fail. Id rather have a LR308 and a BSA. Cheaper, same reliability.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

I thought I was going to be alone here with my discontent towards KAC's extravagant prices and ass raping our tax payers. Glad to see my feelings are shared and it is not just me. They seem to really have capitalized on our government's thought process that the more expensive it is the better it is.

If their is anyone here from the DOD's procurement office, please I beg you, listen to your troops. Let them conduct the testing and purchase based off their feedback. Stop buying crap because costs the most. Let the men who are fighting this war decide what is the best weapon system for them to accomplish their missions; not some academy graduate officer, sitting in an office, that has never set foot in a hostile environment.

Again, just my .02 cents.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

Here's how the M110 price negotiations should have been handled by our bureaucrats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z-AxgueBRk

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: M110 replacement?

Current KAC M110 contract price is around $11,800 this is for the WHOLE kit -- a slew of options that the ARMY contracting office required.


Our M110 Carbine will beat all comers.

Very few companies have the required infrastructure to build over 200 guns a month, let alone act as the depot level refubishment center.

I love the fact that people who through pricing around quote commercial guns, with no spare parts, no UID's, no nylon pouches, no cleaning kits, no scope, no hard cases etc. etc. etc. all items the government specified with the XM-110 Program.

We at KAC have been working with the Army to field an upgraded system, at a lower cost with more useful accessories to the end users.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: M110 replacement?

There is a whole lot more to the story than meets the eye. Try looking into Gov. contracting sometime. You first have to put up all your resources fullfill and then wait 90 plus days to get paid. By then interest eats away at the profits. Your not going to get a 50% deposit from the Gov. to get started like you do from a civillian order.

 

[Oakland Tactical]

Re: M110 replacement?

Kevin, How many sights do you need on one system? is that a mil specification?

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Current KAC M110 contract price is around $11,800 this is for the WHOLE kit -- a slew of options that the ARMY contracting office required.


Our M110 Carbine will beat all comers.

Very few companies have the required infrastructure to build over 200 guns a month, let alone act as the depot level refubishment center.

I love the fact that people who through pricing around quote commercial guns, with no spare parts, no UID's, no nylon pouches, no cleaning kits, no scope, no hard cases etc. etc. etc. all items the government specified with the XM-110 Program.

We at KAC have been working with the Army to field an upgraded system, at a lower cost with more useful accessories to the end users. </div></div>

Kevin...

Does the Army just leasing from your company or did they buy it outright?

Is everything all under ONE NSN for the kit or is it multiple NSNs? Reason I ask say, for example, maybe something better comes along that can give the soldier a better advantage. Is that open ended flexibility available with this system, on your end?

And does it come in black?

 

[LARMIKE]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The current M110s are stupid expensive. We as tax payers should be more than upset at this fraud waste and abuse. Equal if not better rifles can be had at less than half the cost. The suppressors on the current (and carbine) SR-25s is not the quietest or lightest .30 cal suppressor out their either.

I know that the Larue OBR is a definite contender to take over some new government contracts. Lets just say an OBR at $2,900 + say a Surefire suppressor at $1,900 can be had for less than the cost of an SR-25 carbine WITHOUT a suppressor.

As a taxpayer, everyone on here should be demanding the Government dump the KAC contracts, unless they are dropping their price well below their competitors.

I think the total cost of my M110 was around $21,000... Really??? For what??? I could easily have a platform; capable of the same accuracy, quieter, and with the same reliability for a quarter of the cost.

STOP THE SENSELESS SPENDING!!!!!!

Just my .02 cents. </div></div>

No the complete system is around $8,000.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: M110 replacement?

Most .gov contracts I have worked on award you the "right to provide/approved provider" status with no guarantee/commitment of even quantity one of units. They couple with that the need for a high number of units with very aggressive delivery time frames, then hit you with long terms for payment, most favored nation pricing clauses, funding out clauses, etc. etc. etc...

I have heard horror stories about SOCOM from several vendors/people. Changing specs all the time, rarely buying anything, yet all the hoop jumping on contracts mentioned above.

Go give it a try some time before throwing stones at a vendor that has managed to be a key supplier to our war fighters.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I love the fact that people who through pricing around quote commercial guns, with no spare parts, no UID's, no nylon pouches, no cleaning kits, no scope, no hard cases etc. etc. etc. all items the government specified with the XM-110 Program.

</div></div>

So the hard case, cleaning kit, leather sling, (no nylon pouches), spare parts, and ability to produce 200 guns a month is what more than tripled the cost over all competitors to bring the cost of our 25s to over $8,000?

I know the money comes from different budgets even though it all comes from our wallets; but how do you tell the troops "I know we are having a hard time paying you, but good news, we just dropped $11,800 on new guns for you guys."

This is just one more thing that is wrong with our country; manufacturers price gouging our government, and government is more than willing to pay the price. Eventually they will break our countries back.

...and I do understand how the government contracting process works. We are currently going through our T&E process for a new 7.62 precision rifle. While we do not need 200 rifles a month, we have found a few manufacturers that are more than capable of meeting our needs.

 

[powderBurnz]

Re: M110 replacement?

Is that a new URX Kevin? Whens it going to be available to civis?

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LARMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
No the complete system is around $8,000.</div></div>

Your right, thanks for correcting me. I was looking at our cost that including the night vision optics.

 

[Sebben]

Re: M110 replacement?

I don't think you people realize the infrastructure involved in manufacturing 9 weapon systems per work day. That's 1 per hour. From scratch. That's A shit ton of CNC equipment, employees, raw materials, and one ugly ass power bill!

It's not that the weapon is expensive. It's that the cost to produce it in the time frame given is expensive.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: M110 replacement?

A lot of work goes into administrating a government contract than selling a commercial weapon. The Army XM-110 SASS contract held no gurantees as to how many weapons would be procured, we sold a slew more Mk11's to SOCOM that the Army has fielded M110, if the Army had opted for the USSOCOM Mk11 Mod0 it would have saved them about $3k per system.

I agree there is fat that can and will be trimmed from the system on many ends, but I can tell you there is a reason we still are winning competitive testing.

Lifecycle a gun to 40k --- tell me how many of our competitors still have a gun that will function?


And to the question of sights --- .mil requirement for the 45degree offsets, the submission samples will not have duplicated sights.


I dont make the requirements that the Army's call, frankly I expect a much more educated requirement document for this round of requirements/proposals.

 

[Tactical]

Re: M110 replacement?

Hey the M110 comes with a Nylon TIS Quick Cuff and its sold at lowest price anyone on planet gets for one. Same price they paid in 1999 for them.

You wnat to stop waste take atrip to Sand Box and look around, the M110 system is not a drop in the swimming pool.The M110 is a great system.

 

[BCP]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
STOP THE SENSELESS SPENDING!!!!!!
</div></div>

Good luck with that one.

As far as pricing goes yeah they're overpriced for us civilians but I doubt that if Larue got a contract with them they wouldn't milk it for all it was worth either.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: M110 replacement?

What? No Dillos in the kits?

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: M110 replacement?

Personally I'd love to own one of the M110's. Everything I've heard, read, and watched about it (cost aside) says it's an outstanding weapon capable of putting MORE firepower down range accurately.

Don't know about the cost stuff but I'd still love to own one.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: M110 replacement?

Hey Kevin! How about a Demo of this gem just for me, for about two years?

I promise I won't be THAT rough with it! LOL!

 

[Numb_Skull]

Re: M110 replacement?

I just picked up the one for sale on this forum, can't wait to get home and see how it compares to the EMC.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marcus85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just picked up the one for sale on this forum, can't wait to get home and see how it compares to the EMC. </div></div>

That statement comes with a MANDATORY range report you lucky bastard.

 

[Kevp]

Re: M110 replacement?

Lots of uneducated comments in this thread starting with the OP. You need to understand how to read a solicitation and not quote retail market pricing on a weapon system that isn't widely available to the civilian market to begin with. This isn't a slam, just pointing out that if don't deal in these things professionally, it is easy to get it wrong.

 

[USACS]

Re: M110 replacement?

The Navy is already fielding the FNH Mk20 SSR. I wonder of the Army is looking into that at all...

 

[jbgleason]

Re: M110 replacement?

Wow Kevp. I guess by saying its not a slam you are automatically abrogated from all responsibility for slamming me. First, I clearly stated" with accessories" which includes the NVD and I don't think my figures were far off. Second, I clearly asked questions regarding the solicitation language so as to try to understand what isbeing sought by the G. If we need to totally understand the language before asking a question then I wouldn't need to ask. Most important though being thatmy original intent was simply to bring the solicitation to the attention of the Hide members.

 

[lw8]

Re: M110 replacement?

Kevin is good people and having used an actual SR 25 overseas, I can say that it is worth every penny.

In reality, if you look at the total package with everything that is in it and mounted, the system is cheap.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: M110 replacement?

I didn't ever say any different and have been a guest at/used their facility for training. I was just pointing out the solicitation. Reed has the finest. Collection I have ever seen. I hope it becomes available for public viewing one day.

 

[KevinB-KAC]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't ever say any different and have been a guest at/used their facility for training. I was just pointing out the solicitation. Reed has the finest. Collection I have ever seen. I hope it becomes available for public viewing one day. </div></div>
It will, right now DoD requirements bascially make it impossible to house the Museum in the same building as the manufacturing facility. We are building an offsite facility for the Institute of Military Technology, this will house the small arms, armored vehicles, and engine center.

 

[rsilvers]

Re: M110 replacement?

The govt requires a certain very expensive test fire and documentation procedure. They do things that add to the cost. No commercial rifle can meet the requirements at the current price of such commercial rifle. None. If the govt wants rifles for 1/2 the price of the KAC, they just need to losen the specs to a commercial rifle spec, and not ask for any documentation or test firing.

 

[marshallwk]

Re: M110 replacement?

"In reality, if you look at the total package with everything that is in it and mounted, the system is cheap."

I wouldn't go that far. I still stand by the fact that the accuracy is not there for a weapon system at this price point. Regardless of why the weapon system is this expensive, it is not accurate enough. Hency why we are asking for the OBR's, not merely out of the cost issue.

The army as a whole may be happy with the M110, but that is also because it is being used in a DMR type role. As a sniper system is it lacking. If it is to be a DMR type role, it should not be as heavy as it is, or have a barrell as long as it is. The carbine version you posted looks to be more in line with the actual use of the weapon system. I still maintain that better barrells and better accuracy can be had on KAC's part.

Furthermore, due to the big army using the M110 as a DMR weapon, it does not need all of the kit that is shipped. That is the armys fault and not KAC's. I have seen people use the cleaning rods as pointers for power point, no joke.

 

[teufelhunden]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I still maintain that better barrells and better accuracy can be had on KAC's part. </div></div>

KAC is using Obermeyer barrels on the M110 if Im not mistaken. Thats a premium tube for any designated role, IMO!!!

 

[m1ajunkie]

Re: M110 replacement?

Does any one have an idea what role an m110 carbine is intended to fill?

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does any one have an idea what role an m110 carbine is intended to fill?
</div></div>

It's to act as a DMR, but I see it threatening the 5.56 platform very soon.

Especially because of Afghanistan.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does any one have an idea what role an m110 carbine is intended to fill?
</div></div>

It's to act as a DMR, but I see it threatening the 5.56 platform very soon.

Especially because of Afghanistan.</div></div>

I highly doubt that. A soldier can carry twice the ammo in 5.56 as they can in 7.62. When your humping those hills weight is pretty big factor. Several snipers have proven the 5.56 spr systems more than capable of completing their missions.

 

[TallShot]

Re: M110 replacement?

This has been quite the interesting thread.

Anymore info KAC...?

 

[marshallwk]

Re: M110 replacement?

The whole 5.56 versus 7.62 debate is definately another subject. Thats part of the whole reason why the SCAR heavy is still around. The SCAR platform was found not to work very well, and is not being adopted anymore. The only reason the heavy is around is because we want a lighter 7.62 battle rifle.

The weight issue is pretty negligable. At least as far as a Sniper Section is concerned. That's more of a entire army debate. A higher BC bullet with greater terminal effects is something every ""sniper"" I know would take.

How many "snipers" actually talk good of the MK12? I don't know many outside of the Navy that actually still use that thing.

As far as the whole M110 issue. One of the big things that needs fixed is the glass. For gods sakes its 2011. Why is the army still ordering Leupolds with Mildot reticles and MOA adjustments?

We talked of the accuracy earlier. From first hand experience, I have not seen the accuracy of the weapon system to be consistently there. Its no Barrett, but theres still room for improvement. If the new carbine is as accurate and consistently so as the OBR then I don't care if Larue of KAC supplies the thing, so long as we get it and with good glass at that.

 

[armydog]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as the whole M110 issue. One of the big things that needs fixed is the glass. For gods sakes its 2011. Why is the army still ordering Leupolds with Mildot reticles and MOA adjustments?

We talked of the accuracy earlier. From first hand experience, I have not seen the accuracy of the weapon system to be consistently there. Its no Barrett, but theres still room for improvement. If the new carbine is as accurate and consistently so as the OBR then I don't care if Larue of KAC supplies the thing, so long as we get it and with good glass at that. </div></div>

So what would you you like to see to replace the Leupolds? And why? Guess I'm looking for a recommendation from someone in the field.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: M110 replacement?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marshallwk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as the whole M110 issue. One of the big things that needs fixed is the glass. For gods sakes its 2011. Why is the army still ordering Leupolds with Mildot reticles and MOA adjustments?

We talked of the accuracy earlier. From first hand experience, I have not seen the accuracy of the weapon system to be consistently there. Its no Barrett, but theres still room for improvement. If the new carbine is as accurate and consistently so as the OBR then I don't care if Larue of KAC supplies the thing, so long as we get it and with good glass at that. </div></div>

So what would you you like to see to replace the Leupolds? And why? Guess I'm looking for a recommendation from someone in the field.</div></div>

We are testing several mil/ mil scopes to replace our Leupolds. I am pretty partial to Nightforce. I love the F1, but think it is to big to be putting on a carbine. The 2.5-10x32 is a pretty good size for a carbine, but is lacking in a parallax adjustment and that has a few people doing our T&E turned off. Bushnell, Schmidt and Bender, and a couple others that I can't recall are some other candidates for us, but I have not played with any of them.