m1a problem

[seta8967]

I recently took out my new m1a to fire a few rounds and cleaned it on Friday and it shot well no issues. On Saturday though I took a couple friends out to shoot. I shot the first 20 rounds with no issue, then I had my friends fire with no issues. When they went to shoot it again it would not completely cycle and when it did it would usually bend the bullet where it curves. The bullet is pretty massive about a 20-30 degree bend sometimes. The only thing I could notice was off was the gas cylinder cap came loose, I hand tightened it as much as I could and it would still have the problem and kept coming loose. Is this my problem the whole time? I tightened it with wrench and blue loc-tight, hoping that would hold it tight.

 

[wrecklessfool]

Re: m1a problem

You should not use loctite on the gas cylinder plug. Remove the plug, and then remove the gas piston. Make sure the piston is clean and is COMPLETELY dry. Don't run it with lube or it will foul up on you quick and cause your problems to worsen quickly. Additionally, your op rod may be binding. To check this, remove the barreled action from the stock, take out the op rod spring and guide assembly. Replace the action in the stock sans the parts mentioned for removal. Pull the op rod all the way to the rear, and then tilt the rifle forward about 45 degrees. Your op rod and bolt should both slide forward freely. If not, see where the problem lies. Could be a misaligned op rod guide, too much wood in the forend of the stock, or a bent op rod. Either way, your lifetime warranty through Springfiled will cover any repairs needed. Their customer service is top notch. Good luck!

Just thought of this too. Your gas port may be misaligned. To check, remove the gas piston from the gas cylinder. Carefully insert a 1/16" allen wrench into the hole on the underside of the gas cylinder. It should freely pass through the gas cylinder and into the barrel without force or pressure. Use a flashlight to look down the bore to ensure the allen wrench as passed into the barrel. If not, you may need to shim the gas cylinder against the shoulder of the barrel to get the proper alignment.

Register here: www.M14TFL.com The guys are over there have more knowledge about the M14/M1A than you can imagine. Good folks too!

 

[seta8967]

Re: m1a problem

So I went and put some grease instead of some spray lubricant and no problems, I also shot Hornady 168gr TAP instead of Remington 180gr. Thinking that the m1a respond better to grease not spray lubricant, just a FYI in case anyone else has a similar problem.

 

[jetmd]

Re: m1a problem

seta, also when ever you are working on the gas cylinder ALWAYS use a gas cylinder wrench! You can purchase them from several locations, one would be Fulton Armory for $10

 

[seta8967]

Re: m1a problem

I never worked on the gas cylinder just the lug at the end, i didn't even touch until i was at the range, when i noticed it was loose, was put on by the only gun smith in western north dakota.

 

[Regulator]

Re: m1a problem

A gas cylinder wrench holds the gas cylinder while you loosen or torque the gas cylinder plug. A must have when removing or installing the plug.

Your rifle sounds like it may be short stroking. Can be caused by a loose gas cylinder plug, or a piston full of carbon in need of a cleaning among other things.

 

[brt1963]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Regulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A gas cylinder wrench holds the gas cylinder while you loosen or torque the gas cylinder plug. A must have when removing or installing the plug.

Your rifle sounds like it may be short stroking. Can be caused by a loose gas cylinder plug, or a piston full of carbon in need of a cleaning among other things. </div></div>

what is the appropriate torque to apply when reinstalling the plug?

thanks

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: m1a problem

Not sure, but it's not huge.

Those threads are the weakest point of failure on the M14 design. Strip them and you will likely find out that replacements are expensive and hard to obtain.

The design is intended to require retightening every 60-100rd.

The first indication it needs to be done is vertical stringing, soon followed by short stroking.

If you 'gorilla' it; chances are that eventually, you'll strip it.

Don't.

Greg

 

[uawman]

Re: m1a problem

"Use Never -seeze or tetra lube on the gas plug threads. Tighten the gas plug with the combo and gas cylinder wrench using the squeeze method. Get it tight but do not overtighten, as you'll want to get the plug out in the future to clean the gas piston. How tight is tight? Think firm, not Gorilla tight".
from the m-14 complete assembly guide by Walt Kuleck and Clint Smith.
If you plan on keeping your M1A I strongly suggest investing in this book and keep a shipping box handy.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: feersum dreadnot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Regulator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A gas cylinder wrench holds the gas cylinder while you loosen or torque the gas cylinder plug. A must have when removing or installing the plug.

Your rifle sounds like it may be short stroking. Can be caused by a loose gas cylinder plug, or a piston full of carbon in need of a cleaning among other things. </div></div>

what is the appropriate torque to apply when reinstalling the plug?

thanks</div></div>


Marines were using 20 ft lbs as a standard. Zediker recommends 5 ft lbs. Follow this link to Zediker's maintenance instructions. Follow them and you will be fine.
http://www.zediker.com/articles/articles.html#M14_topics

The tools he talks about are available at Fulton.

 

[crazy bay]

Re: m1a problem

This is a little off topic, but applicable. Is SA still not using USGI parts in their newer rifles? When I had my M1A I had all sorts of problems and just started replacing parts with USGI parts or other USGI spec parts from other companies, and it seemed to resolve all the issues. Great weapon once I did that.

 

[rifleman0321]

Re: m1a problem

Springfield quit using GI parts a few years back. I haven't been interested in the system since. Mine was all GI but for the reciever. It was a great weapon, shot MOA with Hirtenberger ball or better ammo every day. Now they are just another civilian rifle, at least to me. Wish I had kept mine, but I'll be saying that several more times in my life, I am sure.

 

[Grump]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The design is intended to require retightening every 60-100rd.
Greg </div></div>
Strange, I don't recall seeing that anywhere in the .gov's 1950s or '60s FMs or TMs, nor in any other source.

Call for citations, please. Or is this just some big secret that Springfield Armory (gov't entity) and TRW kept covered up?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you 'gorilla' it; chances are that eventually, you'll strip it.

Don't.

Greg </div></div>

I agree, if by "gorilla" you mean more than the 37 or so foot-pounds common to many water-cooled VW bolts.

I've never heard a firsthand report of M14 gas cylinder threads stripping, but what do I know? Most of the people I knew and shot with took them apart only once or twice a year, but a few were anal cleaners and ran the drill bits in the piston and cylinder plug every 500 rounds and thus were probably putting a lot more wear on the threads. Every one I saw doing the gas cylinder breakdown did the typical light coat of oil to prevent rust thing on re-assembly.

Having a plug work loose was considered a sign of poor rifle care, and was rare enough to warrant a comment the few times it ever happened. But every 60-100 rounds? There might be a recommendation to *check* it that often, but I don't believe there was ever a design expectation that it would *need* it that often.

 

[Valken]

Re: m1a problem

Go to this web site www.scribd.com/doc/13775400/Rifle-762mm-m14. Scroll through to the troubleshooting section. Your gas cylinder plug shooting loose is most likely your problem. Commercial gas cylinder plugs are known to work loose and the problem can be solved by buying a USGI gas cylinder plug. Never loctite or add anything to the threads of the plug. It can get in to the gas cylinder and gum up the works. The plug should be torqued to 15 foot#. Hope that helps

 

[RTL]

Re: m1a problem

tag for future use

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valken</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Commercial gas cylinder plugs are known to work loose and the problem can be solved by buying a USGI gas cylinder plug. </div></div>

Replace the commercial parts with a new gas cylinder, piston and plug from SEI and be done with it.

M14 Gas Cylinder, NSN 1005-00-790-8766 (2070/2071)
M14 Gas Piston (2075)
M14 Gas Plug (2076)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: m1a problem

Grump, I will not presume to teach you how to use or maintain your rifles; especially when you repeatedly go out of your way to contradict or dispute what I choose to share with my fellow forum members.

Honestly, I don't know why your views and mine are out of agreement, but more importantly, I don't care. You choose to disagree, fine, it just shows that there are different approaches to situations available on this site.

Fact is, I can't cite chapter and verse upon demand, and in your case, wouldn't choose to do so if I could. Demanding the citing of sources is something we've all seen here before, and is the technique of adjudicators when they're attempting to entice an argument upon their own terms. They do it when they're setting up their end game. I have no game, and decline the invitation to play any on your terms. If your post is an invitation to argue, I'd really rather not. All I'm trying to do in this topic is to share info with forum members; info, BTW, which has been shared here repeatedly for more than the past decade without any objections like yours. Perhaps you are a new wellspring of info on the M1/M1A/M14. If so, I am all ears.

My sources are essentially the experiences gained from about 20 years of sharing the line with far better shooters than myself, and taking their comments and lessons to heart. There were a couple of FM's, DCM enclosures, and maybe a few of the works of Scott Duff and Jerry Kuhnhausen. I can't tell you precisely what came from where, but that's my sources. Don't know where yours come from, not asking. If mine clash with yours so be it, our agendas probably differ and mine does not include crossing swords with fellow forum members.

Comments regarding gas plugs are based on instructions I received from my PMI and DI in Parris Island in 1966, when I was a Basic Recruit. If you weren't there, I can understand why you can't recall any such admonitions. In essence, they were trying to take some dumb-ass recruits and teach them how not to disable their own weapons while depending for their lives on them in a combat area. We were instructed to never oil the interior of the gas cylinder, and that using more than two fingers on the multi-tool to tighten the gas plug was unnecessary and unwise. Yes, we had a recruit strip his M14 gas cylinder threads. He wished he was never born after that.

Every damned M1/M1A/M14 I've owned could be milked into doubling. The Garands at Camp Geiger were so old and worn, they would go full auto more'n once on the 'John Wayne Course', and I occasionally ducked a few empty enboc clips as they ejected right at me after a rip. Not fun. Those rifles were badly out of repair, but they just kept going back into the racks and getting reissued.

I never owned one (M1/M1A/M14) with a tuned trigger. I wouldn't, it goes against my concept of what a service rifle should be and do. Where you got that bit about how it only happens with tuned triggers and badly done ones at that, I can't say; but I'm wide open to hear where you got it if you're sharing.

For me, I'd really like this to end here; but I'd also be amenable to discussing this further on a non-adversarial basis. Can we manage that? I am genuinely sorry if I've struck some sort of nerve, such was definitely never my intention.

Greg

 

[sinister]

Re: m1a problem

The gas cylinder plug should be hand-tightened with a wrench, else your gas pressure will become inconsistent. Do not lock-tite it or you won't be able to loosen it to clean the piston.

The best thing you can do for your piston is to get the proper wrench and reamers to clean it and the inside of the plug. I believe when I was shooting M21s and National Match M14/M1A I'd clean it every 300 rounds or so.

Your test as to whether the gas piston is sticking is to lock the bolt back and tilt the rifle's muzzle up then down to about 45 degrees below horizontal. You should hear the gas piston move and "Click" as it goes fore-and-aft. If not it's sticking inside the cylinder.

Do NOT NOT NOT lubricate the piston -- fouling will coke on it and make fouling worse. A titanium-coated piston will resist fouling but it'll be more expensive and still needs to be wiped off and reamed occasionally.

 

[Different]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: uawman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the m-14 complete assembly guide by Walt Kuleck and Clint Smith.
If you plan on keeping your M1A I strongly suggest investing in this book </div></div>

Agreed, this book is a must have for the M14/M1A enthusiast: Kuleck, Walt and Clint McKee. <span style="font-style: italic">The M14 Complete Assembly Guide</span>. Scott A. Duff Publications: Export, PA, 2006.

 

[Different]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: feersum dreadnot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what is the appropriate torque to apply when reinstalling the plug?</div></div>

15 + or - 2 ft-lb of torque (USGI drawing F7267000 sheet 4 of 4)

1/8 turn past finger tight (U. S. Army <span style="font-style: italic">PS Monthly</span> November 1969)

 

[jetmd]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gas cylinder plug should be hand-tightened with a wrench, else your gas pressure will become inconsistent. Do not lock-tite it or you won't be able to loosen it to clean the piston.

The best thing you can do for your piston is to get the proper wrench and reamers to clean it and the inside of the plug. I believe when I was shooting M21s and National Match M14/M1A I'd clean it every 300 rounds or so.

Your test as to whether the gas piston is sticking is to lock the bolt back and tilt the rifle's muzzle up then down to about 45 degrees below horizontal. You should hear the gas piston move and "Click" as it goes fore-and-aft. If not it's sticking inside the cylinder.

Do NOT NOT NOT lubricate the piston -- fouling will coke on it and make fouling worse. A titanium-coated piston will resist fouling but it'll be more expensive and still needs to be wiped off and reamed occasionally. </div></div>

this information is accurate and correct.

 

[Different]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those threads are the weakest point of failure on the M14 design. Strip them and you will likely find out that replacements are expensive and hard to obtain.

The design is intended to require retightening every 60-100rd.</div></div>

Uncle Sugar's requirements imply otherwise. From MIL-R-45012-E SPECIFICATION MILITARY
RIFLE, 7.62MM: M14 [emphasis added]:

"3.3.26 Endurance. Rifles shall be capable of passing a <span style="font-weight: bold">6,000
round endurance test</span> as specified in 4.4.3.6 and 4.5.9 with not more
than the number of malfunctions and unserviceable parts allowed in
Table I, and the average cyclic rate of fire for the entire test shall
be within the limits specified in 3.3.23."

and

"TABLE I. Malfunctions and unserviceable parts

Number permitted in the 6,000-round endurance test

FBL Failure of bolt to lock 3
FSO Failure of bolt stop to hold bolt open 1
FEJ Failure to eject cartridge case 4
FEV Failure to feed (cartridge visible) 4
FFNV Failure to feed (cartridge not visible) 3
FFS Failure to fire semiautomatic (single rounds) 3
LB Light blow 3
PP Punctured primer 1

Total malfunctions -above malfunctions combined 12"

and

"4.5.9 Endurance test.

4.5.9.1 Testing of rifles for endurance requirements (see 3.3.26)
shall be accomplished with the rifles held in a firing stand simulating
shoulder firing and conforming to Drawing F7273901.

4.5.9.2 The initial test rifle from each test lot shall be fired
6,000 round regardless of the number of malfunctions or unserviceable
parts requiring replacement in order to complete the test.

* 4.5.9.3 The rifles shall be assembled with the selector and the
compression helical spring (used with the selector). The firing
schedule for each 300 rounds shall be as follows: 100 rounds semiautomatics
100 rounds in bursts of approximately 5 rounds each, and
100 rounds in bursts of 20 rounds each. The cyclic rate of fire shall
be taken and recorded for one 20-round burst of each 100 rounds fired
in a 20-round burst. Fully loaded magazines shall be used and they shall
be used in rotation so that approximately 500 rounds will be fired from
each magazine. During semiautomatic firing, rifles shall be checked to assure
that no double shots are fired; and during the interrupted burst firing,
rifles shall be checked to assure that firing stops immediately when the
trigger is released. The ammunition shall be in accordance with 4.4.4.2.

4.5.9:4 The barrel shall be cooled to approximately ambient temperature
by air after each 100-round series. <span style="font-weight: bold">Rifles shall be cleaned and
lubricated after each 1,000 rounds, and at the close of each day's firing
the rifles shall be protected against corrosion. No cleaning of the
gas system shall be allowed. No parts shall be altered and only parts
broken or worn to the extent that they are unserviceable shall be replaced.</span>

4.5.9.5 Complete accurate records shall be kept for each reliability
test, showing each malfunction and part replacement including the number
of the round at which each occurred."

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: m1a problem

Interesting.

I still think my PMI and DI gave good advice, and I continue to endorse it. Others, of course, are free to follow their conscience. My AR and M1A having been sold in any case, it's no longer a matter of great personal importance. I was just trying to share experience.

As I made abundantly clear, I have no wish to argue the matter, and as expected, some folks just get the bit in their teeth and make it a matter principle to press the issue.

They must be <span style="font-style: italic">right</span>.

OK, you win.

From this point, you have to argue this one out among yourselves, I'm done with this topic.

Greg

 

[Guest]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The design is intended to require retightening every 60-100rd. </div></div>

Maybe the stuff coming from civi S/A but not what was S/A USGI

Please, A main Battle rifle? Greg take your meds.

I don't recall ever having to retighten the gas plug after cleaning, for Uncle or other wise. Then again, I've most likely never shot out as many barrels as most of you.


<span style="font-weight: bold">Different's </span> info,... as always, is bankable.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Greg take your meds.
</div></div>

Y'know, you're not the first to make this suggestion.

But I really hate taking them. It makes the voices go away, and then, I'd have nothing to share here...

 

[Guest]

Re: m1a problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Greg take your meds.
</div></div>

Y'know, you're not the first to make this suggestion.

But I really hate taking them. It makes the voices go away, and then, I'd have nothing to share here... </div></div>

Don't feel bad, when I stop taking mine, even the dog shakes it's head.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: m1a problem

Dogs are <span style="font-style: italic">wise</span>...

Cats, OTOH, are just cynical...

 

[Grump]

Re: m1a problem

Greg:

Though you're done with the debate, you should know I wouldn't care so much if it had been claimed as a design defect rather than an intentional design choice.

To the OP, it sounds like you are describing a failure to feed jam which could be unrelated to the loose plug that got me sidetracked/highjacked in your thread.

All with the same mag or different ones? I bought some NIW USGI mags before I had my receiver, and did not notice for a while that one of them (all BRW) has a the top front corner of one feed lip just gone. Almost a half-inch of the top front edge was gone, the "joint" where you could have fit it back was a curve like how glass breaks smooth, and what would have been a raw edge was parkerized.

I'd never seen a "smokestack" jam with a live round before that. Extraction and ejection remained flawless, but sometimes it would jam on feeding with the live round pointed to the sky and the chamber empty.

I'm wondering if your rifle is having some problem where the round being fed is released from the mag too soon (like before the bullet is in the chamber) and the meplat is crunching into one of those rearward facing surfaces near the chamber.

Are you saying the ogive of the projectile is showing deep scratching?

Thanks!

 

[Narwhal]

Re: m1a problem

I would just like to add that my M1A scout has this exact problem, but my gas plug is not lose nor does it come lose. I have sent it back to springfield twice but it still does it. In the mean time I have ordered a USGI spec trigger group because I suspect the trigger housing on the SAI parts may be out of spec. What I have found is that rounds on the left side of magazines impact the bolt stop, which causes the bolt to hit those rounds at bad angles during feeding. The result are rounds that bend at the case neck during feeding and therefore won't go all the way into the chamber.

 

[samnev]

Re: m1a problem

I've been shooting M1A's since 1975 and usually donot fire more than 100 rounds in an outing. The exception being my factory original Devine TX Full Auto M1A. I usally don't fire it more than 100-200 rounds per outing. I do clean the rifles & piston after each outing and have never noticed the gas plug coming loose.