Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Lowlight.... please do tell if you can rock it with a suppressor...
Lowlight.... please do tell if you can rock it with a suppressor...
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MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
- Thread starter gstaylorg
- Start date
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
It should, still need to put a cover or something on it to protect from heat, but you have 3/4" to the center of the pencil that should be about 1" max with a cover on it.
It should, still need to put a cover or something on it to protect from heat, but you have 3/4" to the center of the pencil that should be about 1" max with a cover on it.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I'll be interested to hear your evaluation of the unit and whether or not it works reliably with the can. Let us know what you find.
I'll be interested to hear your evaluation of the unit and whether or not it works reliably with the can. Let us know what you find.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Was looking at getting a crony, saw this and just ordered one. Thanks for the write-up.
Layton
Was looking at getting a crony, saw this and just ordered one. Thanks for the write-up.
Layton
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
ditto waiting for reviews.
I just clipped an IR screen on my CED Millennium - again - with a revolver yesterday.
I'm interested in hearing how this one works with BIG guns like .338 LM.
Thanks.
ditto waiting for reviews.
I just clipped an IR screen on my CED Millennium - again - with a revolver yesterday.
I'm interested in hearing how this one works with BIG guns like .338 LM.
Thanks.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Nice write-up <span style="font-style: italic">gstaylorg</span>. Do you ever get up to the Los Angeles area and visit ASR <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">(Angeles Shooting Range)</span></span>? If so, someday I'd like to compare readings from the MagnetoSpeed against those of a PVM-21, which you probably know uses infra-red sensors mounted on a rectangular frame and is "conventionally-mounted" on a tripod. If you're willing please PM me in advance and I'll arrange my schedule for us to meet. You can try-out my Tac Ops X-Ray 51, which I just received back from being re-fitted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>
Also, not to veer off topic - but is that the Pala range? It sure looks like it. Pala is a great range. Steel out to 885 yards from a covered, paved firing line.
Keith
Nice write-up <span style="font-style: italic">gstaylorg</span>. Do you ever get up to the Los Angeles area and visit ASR <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">(Angeles Shooting Range)</span></span>? If so, someday I'd like to compare readings from the MagnetoSpeed against those of a PVM-21, which you probably know uses infra-red sensors mounted on a rectangular frame and is "conventionally-mounted" on a tripod. If you're willing please PM me in advance and I'll arrange my schedule for us to meet. You can try-out my Tac Ops X-Ray 51, which I just received back from being re-fitted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
</div></div>
Also, not to veer off topic - but is that the Pala range? It sure looks like it. Pala is a great range. Steel out to 885 yards from a covered, paved firing line.
Keith
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.
I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.
Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.
I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Lots of current semi auto pistols have rail mounts built in..........
Lots of current semi auto pistols have rail mounts built in..........
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.</div></div>
Thanks for the reply <span style="font-style: italic">gstaylorg</span>. Yes - as you've discovered Pala's practice days are heavily-restricted due to training use by military and LE. I shot there once back in 2009 and love the range, but the combination of Pala's distance from me and the restrictive access (even for Member's) means that I can't practice there at all. I've never shot at Camp Pendleton - but as I understand it it's a very nice range (it should be since the Marines shoot there and matches are now held there on a regular basis).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.</div></div>
Understood. My work entails 7-day access from my clients so I'm really at their mercy, which ofen makes scheduling and follow-through with plans a nightmare. If you ever can make it up to L.A., please let me know. TIA.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.</div></div>
Thanks for the reply <span style="font-style: italic">gstaylorg</span>. Yes - as you've discovered Pala's practice days are heavily-restricted due to training use by military and LE. I shot there once back in 2009 and love the range, but the combination of Pala's distance from me and the restrictive access (even for Member's) means that I can't practice there at all. I've never shot at Camp Pendleton - but as I understand it it's a very nice range (it should be since the Marines shoot there and matches are now held there on a regular basis).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.</div></div>
Understood. My work entails 7-day access from my clients so I'm really at their mercy, which ofen makes scheduling and follow-through with plans a nightmare. If you ever can make it up to L.A., please let me know. TIA.
Keith
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.
I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.
</div></div>
I've just ordered one of these also. My current chrono is a new Oehler 35: it's great but a pain to set up. I plan to compare the two and will post here when I can get the time. I'm hoping to use this to get fast info for my ballistic apps
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith,
I have not been to Angeles Shooting Range as yet, although I've read/seen quite a bit about it at various places online. I moved back to San Diego from Omaha about 8 months ago, and spent quite a bit of time looking for places to shoot prior to the move. And yes, that is Pala. I went and signed up there before my first 24 h back in CA had elapsed (LOL). I like the range there quite a bit, but the hours for "recreational shooting" are quite limited and there are no pits/scoring targets, so I've been shooting comps at Camp Pendleton through Santa Margarita Gun Club.
I definitely appreciate an opportunity to get up to Angeles Ramge and shoot, but due to work, my time is pretty limited. I would also like to compare the MagnetoSpeed to a much higher quality chronograph that the Shooting Chrony. Hopefully, Frank or someone else will will have an opportunity to do that and post the results. In any event, I will check to see if I can find an opportunity to get up your way in the near future and PM you.
</div></div>
I've just ordered one of these also. My current chrono is a new Oehler 35: it's great but a pain to set up. I plan to compare the two and will post here when I can get the time. I'm hoping to use this to get fast info for my ballistic apps
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Great post! Thanks for telling us about the device and doing a great review.
Great post! Thanks for telling us about the device and doing a great review.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Got mine today. Going to the range tomorrow. Should be interesting showing up and putting this thing on the end of my barrel. Can't wait for the looks.
L
Got mine today. Going to the range tomorrow. Should be interesting showing up and putting this thing on the end of my barrel. Can't wait for the looks.
L
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Do they say what is the max distance that it can be from the bullet. looking to see if it will read off a suppresor.
Do they say what is the max distance that it can be from the bullet. looking to see if it will read off a suppresor.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Read above. Lowlight will be testing this shortly and hopefully report back his findings. As I live in Kalifornia, cans aren't an option. According to the manufacturer, max barrel diameter is supposed to be 1.0", which suggests they believe the distance between projectile and sensor should be less than 0.5". However, the proof will be in the actual test, so we'll have to wait and see.
Read above. Lowlight will be testing this shortly and hopefully report back his findings. As I live in Kalifornia, cans aren't an option. According to the manufacturer, max barrel diameter is supposed to be 1.0", which suggests they believe the distance between projectile and sensor should be less than 0.5". However, the proof will be in the actual test, so we'll have to wait and see.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I just tried out the MagnetoSpeed on an 18" .308AR and a 24" Stiller bolt gun. Compared results with my Oehler 35. Both barrels have integral brakes that vent to both sides.
I can only echo Gstaylorg's comments. The device worked perfectly with 175 SMKs in both Federal and SW Ammo loadings. The measurements from the MagnetoSpeed were trivially higher than the Oehler probably for the reasons noted in the initial post. My recordings were a little closer perhaps because I had the Oehler closer to the rifles.
Unless Frank or others find some fatal flaw this seems to be a pretty cool setup. Really fast to use and simple. To my mind those are advantages: the harder it is to use a tool the less likely it will be used. I'm playing around with a variety of loads for a number of rifles and will be much more inclined to pull this out than a more fussy system.
One caveat I found: you've got to really cinch down the strap. If you don't the device moves around a bit and can get erroneous measurements. Apart from that the gadget seems good to go
I just tried out the MagnetoSpeed on an 18" .308AR and a 24" Stiller bolt gun. Compared results with my Oehler 35. Both barrels have integral brakes that vent to both sides.
I can only echo Gstaylorg's comments. The device worked perfectly with 175 SMKs in both Federal and SW Ammo loadings. The measurements from the MagnetoSpeed were trivially higher than the Oehler probably for the reasons noted in the initial post. My recordings were a little closer perhaps because I had the Oehler closer to the rifles.
Unless Frank or others find some fatal flaw this seems to be a pretty cool setup. Really fast to use and simple. To my mind those are advantages: the harder it is to use a tool the less likely it will be used. I'm playing around with a variety of loads for a number of rifles and will be much more inclined to pull this out than a more fussy system.
One caveat I found: you've got to really cinch down the strap. If you don't the device moves around a bit and can get erroneous measurements. Apart from that the gadget seems good to go
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Definitely a very interesting product. Looking forward to more first hand reports.
You do have to account for differences for where the chrono is located away from the muzzle. If you're 10 yards away with an Oehler and you're readings are consistently 15-20fps slower, the two are likely reading almost exactly the same from a trajectory perspective.
Definitely a very interesting product. Looking forward to more first hand reports.
You do have to account for differences for where the chrono is located away from the muzzle. If you're 10 yards away with an Oehler and you're readings are consistently 15-20fps slower, the two are likely reading almost exactly the same from a trajectory perspective.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Hope I'm not gilding the lilly but I thought I'd add one more comment
I took the AR and the bolt gun out this afternoon and used the velocity info generated from this morning's session to populate my data fields. We shot from 100 to 600 yards, creating solutions in Shooter, using Kestrel environmental data. First shot to last shot the dope was dead on.
I know this is far from a definitive review but this chrono seems GTG. Unless someone finds a flaw the question for me now will be device longevity.
Hope this helps whoever is interested.
Hope I'm not gilding the lilly but I thought I'd add one more comment
I took the AR and the bolt gun out this afternoon and used the velocity info generated from this morning's session to populate my data fields. We shot from 100 to 600 yards, creating solutions in Shooter, using Kestrel environmental data. First shot to last shot the dope was dead on.
I know this is far from a definitive review but this chrono seems GTG. Unless someone finds a flaw the question for me now will be device longevity.
Hope this helps whoever is interested.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
For you guys who have one how much is your poi changing with it on and are your group sizes increased?
For you guys who have one how much is your poi changing with it on and are your group sizes increased?
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn it Frank... post a review already</div></div>
LOL
Sorry don't' go to the range on the weekends and actually I was up in Douglas helping set up for the Cup..
This week.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn it Frank... post a review already</div></div>
LOL
Sorry don't' go to the range on the weekends and actually I was up in Douglas helping set up for the Cup..
This week.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I don't know if you all had seen this review so here it is:
http://www.realguns.com/articles/391.htm
I have mine sitting right here, but I haven't been able to take it out yet.
I don't know if you all had seen this review so here it is:
http://www.realguns.com/articles/391.htm
I have mine sitting right here, but I haven't been able to take it out yet.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Was in the market for a Chrono and glad I saw this before I bought a traditional rig. I have a Surefire MB762SS brake on my GAP 300WSM. Its 4.2 inches long. It should mount aft of the brake just fine. Will post a pic when I get the chrono. The Surefire brake is one of the longer set ups is it not? CJ
Was in the market for a Chrono and glad I saw this before I bought a traditional rig. I have a Surefire MB762SS brake on my GAP 300WSM. Its 4.2 inches long. It should mount aft of the brake just fine. Will post a pic when I get the chrono. The Surefire brake is one of the longer set ups is it not? CJ
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Quick update: I managed to get an hour at the range yesterday to test the effect of the MagnetoSpeed on POI at 100 yd. Because of the limited amount of time, I only tested the Hornady 150 gr SSTs. I zeroed the Hospitaller at 100 yd <span style="text-decoration: underline">without</span> the device attached, then shot one 5-shot group. Without adjusting the turrets, I then attached the MagnetoSpeed and fired another five shot group. This was repeated for a total of 4 x 5-shot groups; two without, and two with the MagnetoSpeed, and no turret changes beyond the initial sight-in without the unit attached.
Results: the group centers' with the unit <span style="text-decoration: underline">attached</span> were 1.25" and 1.35" <span style="font-style: italic">high</span>; no detectable change in windage. From this rather quick and dirty test, it seems as though attaching the MagnetoSpeed <span style="text-decoration: underline">does</span> change the POI <span style="font-style: italic">for this rifle with this ammunition</span>.
Whether this holds true for other weapons with different ammunition will require more extensive testing at longer ranges to obtain a more reliable sample size. I didn't have enough time to do more test shots, so I can't say whether the vertical and/or horizontal group spread values might also change. However, in light of the fact that in my hands the avg POI changed by more than 1 MOA at 100 yd, it wouldn't be surprising if other effects on POI would be observed at longer ranges.
If the changes in POI hold true for other users, in my mind this will limit the usefulness of this unit for use during load development, particularly if there are changes in group spreads. Maybe not so surprising given that you're hanging ~1/3 lb off the muzzle of the barrel. For simple MV measurements though, the MagnetoSpeed is so easy to use I can't imagine going back to the Shooting Chrony unless it's absolutely necessary.
Quick update: I managed to get an hour at the range yesterday to test the effect of the MagnetoSpeed on POI at 100 yd. Because of the limited amount of time, I only tested the Hornady 150 gr SSTs. I zeroed the Hospitaller at 100 yd <span style="text-decoration: underline">without</span> the device attached, then shot one 5-shot group. Without adjusting the turrets, I then attached the MagnetoSpeed and fired another five shot group. This was repeated for a total of 4 x 5-shot groups; two without, and two with the MagnetoSpeed, and no turret changes beyond the initial sight-in without the unit attached.
Results: the group centers' with the unit <span style="text-decoration: underline">attached</span> were 1.25" and 1.35" <span style="font-style: italic">high</span>; no detectable change in windage. From this rather quick and dirty test, it seems as though attaching the MagnetoSpeed <span style="text-decoration: underline">does</span> change the POI <span style="font-style: italic">for this rifle with this ammunition</span>.
Whether this holds true for other weapons with different ammunition will require more extensive testing at longer ranges to obtain a more reliable sample size. I didn't have enough time to do more test shots, so I can't say whether the vertical and/or horizontal group spread values might also change. However, in light of the fact that in my hands the avg POI changed by more than 1 MOA at 100 yd, it wouldn't be surprising if other effects on POI would be observed at longer ranges.
If the changes in POI hold true for other users, in my mind this will limit the usefulness of this unit for use during load development, particularly if there are changes in group spreads. Maybe not so surprising given that you're hanging ~1/3 lb off the muzzle of the barrel. For simple MV measurements though, the MagnetoSpeed is so easy to use I can't imagine going back to the Shooting Chrony unless it's absolutely necessary.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Change in POI is of less concern to me than change in group size. I have no problem doing final zero adjustment *after* load development... but I'd really like to be able to get chrono data while doing load development with out having to screw around with waiting for the line to go cold to setup/teardown a tripod mounted chrono, suffer thru light changes screwing with my results, etc.
Just my $.02 worth...
Change in POI is of less concern to me than change in group size. I have no problem doing final zero adjustment *after* load development... but I'd really like to be able to get chrono data while doing load development with out having to screw around with waiting for the line to go cold to setup/teardown a tripod mounted chrono, suffer thru light changes screwing with my results, etc.
Just my $.02 worth...
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Who cares about PI change? Its not like the thing is going to make you go off paper at 100...
Who cares about PI change? Its not like the thing is going to make you go off paper at 100...
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I agree, accuracy in results is far more important than POI changes. I'll load to find max velocity and then back down from there until I find the accuracy node/nodes. At that point re-chrono and you're good.
The real benefit here is strapping this on without a cease fire in place and not having to deal with lighting issues. If this device reports accurately without any mounting fuss (e.g. cheap components or mount or whatever), this product could be a game changer.....
I agree, accuracy in results is far more important than POI changes. I'll load to find max velocity and then back down from there until I find the accuracy node/nodes. At that point re-chrono and you're good.
The real benefit here is strapping this on without a cease fire in place and not having to deal with lighting issues. If this device reports accurately without any mounting fuss (e.g. cheap components or mount or whatever), this product could be a game changer.....
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I agree. If this system is as easy, reliable and accurately reports velocities as it is advertised to be, then this will indeed be a real game changer.
I agree. If this system is as easy, reliable and accurately reports velocities as it is advertised to be, then this will indeed be a real game changer.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who cares about PI change? Its not like the thing is going to make you go off paper at 100...</div></div>
Who cares? Those who prefer to chronograph rather more of their ammo to gather stronger statistical evidence for the velocities they'll plug into their ballistic calculators.
For those who fire about three shots at 100 yards to clock their ammo and are happy with the accuracy/reliability of the numbers they got - indeed no need to care about either POI or group spread change.
Two factors are of importance: how accurate this unit's velocity measurement is (usability in general), and whether this unit affects the group spread (usability for load development, especially OCW).
@gstaylorg, you didn't mention whether you observed any group size difference...? Would you care to comment whether you noticed any effect? Also, I'm surprised the POI change isn't static (I'd expect it to be either 1.35" or 1.25") - based on the Rifles Only class that dealt with placing the rifle barrel directly on support and observing the impact change (it was very consistent).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who cares about PI change? Its not like the thing is going to make you go off paper at 100...</div></div>
Who cares? Those who prefer to chronograph rather more of their ammo to gather stronger statistical evidence for the velocities they'll plug into their ballistic calculators.
For those who fire about three shots at 100 yards to clock their ammo and are happy with the accuracy/reliability of the numbers they got - indeed no need to care about either POI or group spread change.
Two factors are of importance: how accurate this unit's velocity measurement is (usability in general), and whether this unit affects the group spread (usability for load development, especially OCW).
@gstaylorg, you didn't mention whether you observed any group size difference...? Would you care to comment whether you noticed any effect? Also, I'm surprised the POI change isn't static (I'd expect it to be either 1.35" or 1.25") - based on the Rifles Only class that dealt with placing the rifle barrel directly on support and observing the impact change (it was very consistent).
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Mouse, I hear you but is it realistic to think that hanging any device off the end of a muzzle will not affect either POI or groupings?
I for one would not trust my groupings whatsoever with this device hanging off my barrel. We have strong evidence that changes in barrel harmonics through tuners or other device will affect things to some degree. You seem to have seen the same with the RO class and the barrel touching example.
If we know that a barrel attached device has an effect on POI or groupings, why not find the max velocity and then load tune from there down. Once you're satisfied, then re-chrono and you're good. With this method, you should trust both the velocity and the grouping data.
That is my $.02 of course. YMMV.
Mouse, I hear you but is it realistic to think that hanging any device off the end of a muzzle will not affect either POI or groupings?
I for one would not trust my groupings whatsoever with this device hanging off my barrel. We have strong evidence that changes in barrel harmonics through tuners or other device will affect things to some degree. You seem to have seen the same with the RO class and the barrel touching example.
If we know that a barrel attached device has an effect on POI or groupings, why not find the max velocity and then load tune from there down. Once you're satisfied, then re-chrono and you're good. With this method, you should trust both the velocity and the grouping data.
That is my $.02 of course. YMMV.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
As I mentioned above, I am not willing to make any conclusion regarding changes in horizontal group spread for the couple 5-shot groups I fired at 100 yd with/without the device attached. Unlike the first day I did testing with it, there was constantly changing wind of 5-15 mph from 7:30 to 8:00 when I checked for a change in POI. As I stated above, there were <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> changes in horizontal group spread significant enough I would be willing claim the max horizontal shot deviation was any different with or without the unit attached. In my opinion, that is going to require more extensive testing at greater ranges than 100 yd to increase the magnitude of potentially subtle effects on horizontal deviation that may not be easily observed at 100 yd. I will definitely do that for my own interest when I get the opportunity, and I will report whatever I find here. Unfortunately, I have limited time and access to the range where I shoot, so it may be a bit before I get a chance to test it further.
It is very well-documented that weighted devices attached to a rifle barrel can dramatically alter the harmonics, including both horizontal and vertical deviation. I had hoped that its light weight might render any effect of the MagnetoSpeed so small as to be negligible. Clearly, that is not the case in the vertical, although in my <span style="font-style: italic">opinion</span>, the question of horizontal changes in group spread remains <span style="font-style: italic">unanswered</span> at this point. It is also my <span style="font-style: italic">opinion</span> that this <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> have a significant impact if it is attached/used during load development. That's all I'm saying. If you believe that the device is unlikely to change group size, by all means go buy one, test it yourself, draw your own conclusions, and use it however you see fit.
Note added: Mouse, the 1.25" and 1.35" were the deviation of the centerpoint of each group with the device above the groups shot without it. It's mathematically impossible to say a 0.1" difference is statistically significant. It's well under what I know to be the optimal precision of the rifle in my hands (usually 0.5-0.6 MOA range). I've shot groups well under that on occasion, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. IMO, 1.25" and 1.35" are the same number.
As I mentioned above, I am not willing to make any conclusion regarding changes in horizontal group spread for the couple 5-shot groups I fired at 100 yd with/without the device attached. Unlike the first day I did testing with it, there was constantly changing wind of 5-15 mph from 7:30 to 8:00 when I checked for a change in POI. As I stated above, there were <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> changes in horizontal group spread significant enough I would be willing claim the max horizontal shot deviation was any different with or without the unit attached. In my opinion, that is going to require more extensive testing at greater ranges than 100 yd to increase the magnitude of potentially subtle effects on horizontal deviation that may not be easily observed at 100 yd. I will definitely do that for my own interest when I get the opportunity, and I will report whatever I find here. Unfortunately, I have limited time and access to the range where I shoot, so it may be a bit before I get a chance to test it further.
It is very well-documented that weighted devices attached to a rifle barrel can dramatically alter the harmonics, including both horizontal and vertical deviation. I had hoped that its light weight might render any effect of the MagnetoSpeed so small as to be negligible. Clearly, that is not the case in the vertical, although in my <span style="font-style: italic">opinion</span>, the question of horizontal changes in group spread remains <span style="font-style: italic">unanswered</span> at this point. It is also my <span style="font-style: italic">opinion</span> that this <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> have a significant impact if it is attached/used during load development. That's all I'm saying. If you believe that the device is unlikely to change group size, by all means go buy one, test it yourself, draw your own conclusions, and use it however you see fit.
Note added: Mouse, the 1.25" and 1.35" were the deviation of the centerpoint of each group with the device above the groups shot without it. It's mathematically impossible to say a 0.1" difference is statistically significant. It's well under what I know to be the optimal precision of the rifle in my hands (usually 0.5-0.6 MOA range). I've shot groups well under that on occasion, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. IMO, 1.25" and 1.35" are the same number.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Mouse,
The question was why care about the POI change.. not why to use the Chrono? So tell me this, since you are SOOOOOOO much smarter than me, are you going to change your scope to dial to the impact change when you are shooting with the Chrono on, then re-dial it back when you take it off? What would be the point of this? Where is the lesson in this madness?? If the POI is 1.5" high, if you hold on the bullseye, won't the group be 1.5" high? All I'm saying is that if the chrono isn't throwing your POI off paper, then why worry about it?
Mouse,
The question was why care about the POI change.. not why to use the Chrono? So tell me this, since you are SOOOOOOO much smarter than me, are you going to change your scope to dial to the impact change when you are shooting with the Chrono on, then re-dial it back when you take it off? What would be the point of this? Where is the lesson in this madness?? If the POI is 1.5" high, if you hold on the bullseye, won't the group be 1.5" high? All I'm saying is that if the chrono isn't throwing your POI off paper, then why worry about it?
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Thanks for the review. I first saw a prototype MagnetoSpeed unit at the range a couple of months ago. My wife manage to get me an early release production unit for my birthday.
I've only had a chance to run thirty rounds through my DPMS, but I'm thrilled. Setting up my ProChrono at the range was always one of my biggest aggravations. I would always set up six targets, which made it a real pain to put the bullet path over the sensors. Not any more. Having an SD card with all the data will also save much time getting my results into a spreadsheet.
Readers concerned about suppressor usage should be aware that the sensitivity of the MagnetoSpeed can be adjusted to allow for a reduced signal. I would imagine that would compensate for increased distance of the sensor deck from the bore.
Also, be sure to equate "Archive Series" with "Change String".
Good luck.
Thanks for the review. I first saw a prototype MagnetoSpeed unit at the range a couple of months ago. My wife manage to get me an early release production unit for my birthday.
I've only had a chance to run thirty rounds through my DPMS, but I'm thrilled. Setting up my ProChrono at the range was always one of my biggest aggravations. I would always set up six targets, which made it a real pain to put the bullet path over the sensors. Not any more. Having an SD card with all the data will also save much time getting my results into a spreadsheet.
Readers concerned about suppressor usage should be aware that the sensitivity of the MagnetoSpeed can be adjusted to allow for a reduced signal. I would imagine that would compensate for increased distance of the sensor deck from the bore.
Also, be sure to equate "Archive Series" with "Change String".
Good luck.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mouse, I hear you but is it realistic to think that hanging any device off the end of a muzzle will not affect either POI or groupings?</div></div>
No it is not reasonable to expect POI to stay the same. Yes it is reasonable to expect that the grouping <span style="text-decoration: underline">may</span> stay the same. Consider muzzle brakes and suppressors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I for one would not trust my groupings whatsoever with this device hanging off my barrel. We have strong evidence that changes in barrel harmonics through tuners or other device will affect things to some degree. You seem to have seen the same with the RO class and the barrel touching example.</div></div>
Yes. The question is exactly how it affects things.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we know that a barrel attached device has an effect on POI or groupings, why not find the max velocity and then load tune from there down. Once you're satisfied, then re-chrono and you're good. With this method, you should trust both the velocity and the grouping data.</div></div>
One reason why not is - I couldn't care less for max velocity, and that's not what I'm trying to achieve in my load development. I'm trying to find the best accuracy and tolerance (OCW method) with moderate velocity.
Of course this MagnetoSpeed thing is just too convenient in use to pass it by, so I'll get it and experiment with it as well. And if I find that it doesn't affect the grouping (much), but only shifts the POI - I may keep it strapped for most of the range shoots, including load development of course. If on the other hand I find that the grouping is significantly negatively affected - that would be another story...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mouse, I hear you but is it realistic to think that hanging any device off the end of a muzzle will not affect either POI or groupings?</div></div>
No it is not reasonable to expect POI to stay the same. Yes it is reasonable to expect that the grouping <span style="text-decoration: underline">may</span> stay the same. Consider muzzle brakes and suppressors.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I for one would not trust my groupings whatsoever with this device hanging off my barrel. We have strong evidence that changes in barrel harmonics through tuners or other device will affect things to some degree. You seem to have seen the same with the RO class and the barrel touching example.</div></div>
Yes. The question is exactly how it affects things.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mattmcg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we know that a barrel attached device has an effect on POI or groupings, why not find the max velocity and then load tune from there down. Once you're satisfied, then re-chrono and you're good. With this method, you should trust both the velocity and the grouping data.</div></div>
One reason why not is - I couldn't care less for max velocity, and that's not what I'm trying to achieve in my load development. I'm trying to find the best accuracy and tolerance (OCW method) with moderate velocity.
Of course this MagnetoSpeed thing is just too convenient in use to pass it by, so I'll get it and experiment with it as well. And if I find that it doesn't affect the grouping (much), but only shifts the POI - I may keep it strapped for most of the range shoots, including load development of course. If on the other hand I find that the grouping is significantly negatively affected - that would be another story...
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached. If the only effect is vertical change in POI, it shouldn't make a huge difference, although someone more expert with ladder testing than I am might say differently. The only way to know for sure is to test it in a more definitive way than I have had the time to do at this point. Personally, I would like to know the answer before I devote a lot of time and effort to load testing using it. YMMV.
In any event, I had no intention of starting a pissing contest with this thread and I'm sorry it seems to be going that direction. I just thought it was a cool device and that maybe others at the Hide would benefit from the info.
I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached. If the only effect is vertical change in POI, it shouldn't make a huge difference, although someone more expert with ladder testing than I am might say differently. The only way to know for sure is to test it in a more definitive way than I have had the time to do at this point. Personally, I would like to know the answer before I devote a lot of time and effort to load testing using it. YMMV.
In any event, I had no intention of starting a pissing contest with this thread and I'm sorry it seems to be going that direction. I just thought it was a cool device and that maybe others at the Hide would benefit from the info.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Good thread...a difference of opinion doesn't necessarily make a pissing contest. Since there is rarely a free lunch in this business we may have go adjust our load development techniques. The point here is that this is a chronograph... My only concern is that it measures velocity accurately and repeatably while negating error inducing environmental effects. So far, it seems to do so nicely. With respect to load development wecan still do that just as effectively.
Shoot a ladder or the round robin OCW method without the chrony and look at the groups. Pick a node, THEN strap on the chrony and see if it meets your ES and SD tolerances so you can be confident in your long range solutions. My belief is that if the shooter does his part and other factors like seating depth are constant then accuracy comes from the quality of the barrel and the "correct" velocity for that barrel. The chrony will only tell you how good of a reloader you are and what dope to dial. I dont see it as critical for load DEVELOPMENT as long as I know I have a safe load. The groups will indicate potentially good loads...then use the chrony to confirm. What good is a tight ES if the barrel doesn't like the load/velocity? You can work up a load that shoots great without a chrony at all. I dont see the poi shift or group issue as a limitation for this device at all. If it measures my muzzle velocity with more reliability than the typical chronograph I will be happy. So far so good.
Good thread...a difference of opinion doesn't necessarily make a pissing contest. Since there is rarely a free lunch in this business we may have go adjust our load development techniques. The point here is that this is a chronograph... My only concern is that it measures velocity accurately and repeatably while negating error inducing environmental effects. So far, it seems to do so nicely. With respect to load development wecan still do that just as effectively.
Shoot a ladder or the round robin OCW method without the chrony and look at the groups. Pick a node, THEN strap on the chrony and see if it meets your ES and SD tolerances so you can be confident in your long range solutions. My belief is that if the shooter does his part and other factors like seating depth are constant then accuracy comes from the quality of the barrel and the "correct" velocity for that barrel. The chrony will only tell you how good of a reloader you are and what dope to dial. I dont see it as critical for load DEVELOPMENT as long as I know I have a safe load. The groups will indicate potentially good loads...then use the chrony to confirm. What good is a tight ES if the barrel doesn't like the load/velocity? You can work up a load that shoots great without a chrony at all. I dont see the poi shift or group issue as a limitation for this device at all. If it measures my muzzle velocity with more reliability than the typical chronograph I will be happy. So far so good.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The question was why care about the POI change.. not why to use the Chrono?</div></div>
My mistake - I confused your question with somebody else's that brought the group spread in. As I answered above - mere POI change does not matter, and I can't see why anybody would care.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot a ladder or the round robin OCW method without the chrony and look at the groups. Pick a node, THEN strap on the chrony and see if it meets your ES and SD tolerances so you can be confident in your long range solutions. My belief is that if the shooter does his part and other factors like seating depth are constant then accuracy comes from the quality of the barrel and the "correct" velocity for that barrel. The chrony will only tell you how good of a reloader you are and what dope to dial. I dont see it as critical for load DEVELOPMENT as long as I know I have a safe load. The groups will indicate potentially good loads...then use the chrony to confirm.</div></div>
You are absolutely correct. But consider the convenience and saving in both time and ammo if one does not need to separate ammo clocking from the rest of shooting. Not to mention collecting extra data points essentially for free, by chrono'ing every round sent across the field.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What good is a tight ES if the barrel doesn't like the load/velocity?</div></div>
Hmm, to me tight ES (which implies that the group is tight) means exactly that the barrel <span style="text-decoration: underline">does like</span> this load/velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can work up a load that shoots great without a chrony at all. I dont see the poi shift or group issue as a limitation for this device at all.</div></div>
You certainly can. It would be really great if this device were both accurate velocity-wise <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> "neutral" wrt. the grouping. I concur that it would be useful even if it's just accurate - but personally I'd rather not have to shoot a good number of rounds at the blue sky merely to get statistically sufficient number across the chrony to know with reasonable precision what to key into my ballistic computer. <span style="font-style: italic">Must add that when the range and the situation allow - I try to get as many of my rounds as I can across the chrono to improve confidence in the velocity number and bounds for the long range applications. Ability to combine target practice with chronographing helps.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had no intention of starting a pissing contest with this thread and I'm sorry it seems to be going that direction.</div></div>
Oh no it isn't. As KYpatriot pointed out, difference of opinions thankfully doesn't make a pissing contest (yet
). I think this thread is mostly done with the excellent review and some useful additions & opinions, and the only thing it's missing for a successful completion is a few reports on the group spread. And maybe a few reports on unit reliability in a few weeks/months from now.
Again, great review - and my MagnetoSpeed should ship soon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The question was why care about the POI change.. not why to use the Chrono?</div></div>
My mistake - I confused your question with somebody else's that brought the group spread in. As I answered above - mere POI change does not matter, and I can't see why anybody would care.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot a ladder or the round robin OCW method without the chrony and look at the groups. Pick a node, THEN strap on the chrony and see if it meets your ES and SD tolerances so you can be confident in your long range solutions. My belief is that if the shooter does his part and other factors like seating depth are constant then accuracy comes from the quality of the barrel and the "correct" velocity for that barrel. The chrony will only tell you how good of a reloader you are and what dope to dial. I dont see it as critical for load DEVELOPMENT as long as I know I have a safe load. The groups will indicate potentially good loads...then use the chrony to confirm.</div></div>
You are absolutely correct. But consider the convenience and saving in both time and ammo if one does not need to separate ammo clocking from the rest of shooting. Not to mention collecting extra data points essentially for free, by chrono'ing every round sent across the field.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What good is a tight ES if the barrel doesn't like the load/velocity?</div></div>
Hmm, to me tight ES (which implies that the group is tight) means exactly that the barrel <span style="text-decoration: underline">does like</span> this load/velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can work up a load that shoots great without a chrony at all. I dont see the poi shift or group issue as a limitation for this device at all.</div></div>
You certainly can. It would be really great if this device were both accurate velocity-wise <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> "neutral" wrt. the grouping. I concur that it would be useful even if it's just accurate - but personally I'd rather not have to shoot a good number of rounds at the blue sky merely to get statistically sufficient number across the chrony to know with reasonable precision what to key into my ballistic computer. <span style="font-style: italic">Must add that when the range and the situation allow - I try to get as many of my rounds as I can across the chrono to improve confidence in the velocity number and bounds for the long range applications. Ability to combine target practice with chronographing helps.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had no intention of starting a pissing contest with this thread and I'm sorry it seems to be going that direction.</div></div>
Oh no it isn't. As KYpatriot pointed out, difference of opinions thankfully doesn't make a pissing contest (yet
Again, great review - and my MagnetoSpeed should ship soon.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached.</div></div>
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached.</div></div>
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change...
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change... </div></div>
I agree completely, it just would be nice if it could be left on to get MV data for every shot. However, as you point out, it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change... </div></div>
I agree completely, it just would be nice if it could be left on to get MV data for every shot. However, as you point out, it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached.</div></div>
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change... </div></div>
Actually, for me it would <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> make the most sense, because I prefer to get <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> the load-related information at the same time and with minimal expenditure. Also, (after the load is finalized) I like clocking the rounds during my routine practice because it doesn't cost me anything extra and improves my velocity estimates nicely (Confidence Interval
). Your method would preclude that.
The load development options are:
If you follow the approach (a), I think the advantages of MagnetoSpeed would be marginal: you would break out the "big" chrono only when you are ready to clock the load, and keep it stowed out of the way otherwise. So being able to quickly and easily put it on the rifle matters less because in this case you can't use those shots for anything (accuracy, etc) but clocking the velocity. How often do you clock your ammo? Would it make such a big difference if you had to break out Oehler for those probably infrequent events?
I see the biggest advantage of MagnetoSpeed in the ability to just clamp it on - no disturbance for me or for the other range users - and accumulate data while I keep shooting, getting the "benefits of numbers" (because then every extra bullet sent to the target across the chrono improves my velocity data bounds and at the same time serves its primary purpose). <span style="text-decoration: line-through">But if I have to "dedicate" those shots to "clocking" only - my statistical data will be both poorer in quality and more expensive to obtain (because now some of my "shooting budget" is removed from accuracy practice and placed into "clocking").</span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Update.</span>As long as the change to both the POI and group spread is predictable and consistent (and that is likely to depend, among other factors, on how consistent the user is in attaching the device at the same place with the same tension), everything said about the option (b) in load development and data collection afterwards will apply. The only question is - whether the groups will be effected in a consistent way (as opposed to some shrinking down and some spreading up based on the given load).
</span>
Rather long rant, but the issue seems straightforward. It is beneficial if you can clock the rounds while doing something else useful with them. It is not a-must, but it is better both mathematically and financially.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll answer that Stanwood: if the attached device changes group spread in both horizontal and vertical, you might use it to develop what you think is the "tightest" load, particularly if you're doing OCW testing during load development, only to find the "optimal" load wasn't so great unless you had the unit attached.</div></div>
I see that point, but then I have to ask why you'd run the chrono on it while shooting for groups, load testing or not. I know everyone has their own proceduralo way of load testing, but wouldn't it make the most sense to shoot for groups, pick the best one or two targets, and then run the chrono to see the speed of that load? That way you wouldn't have to worry about the POI change... </div></div>
Actually, for me it would <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> make the most sense, because I prefer to get <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> the load-related information at the same time and with minimal expenditure. Also, (after the load is finalized) I like clocking the rounds during my routine practice because it doesn't cost me anything extra and improves my velocity estimates nicely (Confidence Interval
The load development options are:
- Work out the load first without knowing the velocities, select the right load, then break out the chrono and shoot 10-15 rounds over it to get the velocity data; whenever you need to verify the velocity - resign to the fact that you can't use those rounds for anything else like accuracy practice.
- Collect velocity data in the process of load development, when the right load is determined - shoot more rounds for velocity data <span style="text-decoration: underline">and</span> accuracy practice, as the chrono is there anyway. And when practice afterwards - strap it on and keep collecting the data for free.
If you follow the approach (a), I think the advantages of MagnetoSpeed would be marginal: you would break out the "big" chrono only when you are ready to clock the load, and keep it stowed out of the way otherwise. So being able to quickly and easily put it on the rifle matters less because in this case you can't use those shots for anything (accuracy, etc) but clocking the velocity. How often do you clock your ammo? Would it make such a big difference if you had to break out Oehler for those probably infrequent events?
I see the biggest advantage of MagnetoSpeed in the ability to just clamp it on - no disturbance for me or for the other range users - and accumulate data while I keep shooting, getting the "benefits of numbers" (because then every extra bullet sent to the target across the chrono improves my velocity data bounds and at the same time serves its primary purpose). <span style="text-decoration: line-through">But if I have to "dedicate" those shots to "clocking" only - my statistical data will be both poorer in quality and more expensive to obtain (because now some of my "shooting budget" is removed from accuracy practice and placed into "clocking").</span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Update.</span>As long as the change to both the POI and group spread is predictable and consistent (and that is likely to depend, among other factors, on how consistent the user is in attaching the device at the same place with the same tension), everything said about the option (b) in load development and data collection afterwards will apply. The only question is - whether the groups will be effected in a consistent way (as opposed to some shrinking down and some spreading up based on the given load).
</span>
Rather long rant, but the issue seems straightforward. It is beneficial if you can clock the rounds while doing something else useful with them. It is not a-must, but it is better both mathematically and financially.
Re: MagnetoSpeed Chronograph Review
Any guesses on whether it would work with a Vais brake? I'm shooting a fast 6.5 and while I'd love to get one of these, I'd rather not blow it apart on the first shot. And thanks very much to the OP for his responses to so many questions.
Any guesses on whether it would work with a Vais brake? I'm shooting a fast 6.5 and while I'd love to get one of these, I'd rather not blow it apart on the first shot. And thanks very much to the OP for his responses to so many questions.
