Gunsmithing Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Oddball Six

Oddball Six

Commander of Meh
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 2, 2010
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40°25′N, 104°43′W
#1
So, I have a rifle build in progress via a smith. Being familiar with the effects of nitriding in the handgun world, and my smith recommending that I consider the procedure, during the build design, we made the decision to base the rifle off of a Surgeon RSR and then nitride both barrel and action.

Following some of the discussion here on the hide lately, I decided to double check that decision as information was presented here that I had not considered, as the customer, and after extensive googling on my own to educate myself, it seemed that the 416R of the RSR led to ambiguous data on whether or not it would be a good choice to nitride.

Applying some of the advice, to whit: "ask the manufacturer", after everything, it turns out that is completely useless.

Surgeon's response came back this morning:
"About all we can say on the Nitride is that it will void all warranty on the action. Thanks".

Thanks guys, that was very informative and seems to be a well considered datapoint to help make the decision whether that is something I should do.

It will void the warranty... does this type of procedure usually void said warranty on actions anyway? Does that mean that there are known problems? Or does that mean that this is most likely ok, you just dont want to be responsible for it? Can you maybe wave paddles in the air in semaphore with your real message? That might be clearer than the position you took on nitriding an RSR.

Any insight on the subject would be welcome, because clearly Surgeon Rifles, <span style="font-style: italic">whose product this is and should be most familiar with the materials/procedures used to make the action</span> isn't going to provide much.
 
#2
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

So they are supposed to be experts on everything? They are extremely busy as it is. Now they are supposed to spend their time and money to research everything in the universe and determine how it will effect their action? How much will an action cost after they hire teams of experts to do all of this research. Probably need a couple of lawyers as well.

Our stance is pretty much the same. We have seen it work well and do some amazing things. We have also seen it destroy some excellent shooting barrels. Why? We don't know. And neither does anyone else. That unfortunately is the hard simple truth. We keep following the results of others and sorting thru all of the information out there. We pass on what we learn both to the public and back to the Nitriders to improve the process. But our job is to make barrels, not solve all of the worlds problems.
 
#3
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brutas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So they are supposed to be experts on everything? They are extremely busy as it is. Now they are supposed to spend their time and money to research everything in the universe and determine how it will effect their action? How much will an action cost after they hire teams of experts to do all of this research. Probably need a couple of lawyers as well.

[SNIP]

We pass on what we learn both to the public and back to the Nitriders to improve the process. But our job is to make barrels, not solve all of the worlds problems.</div></div>

And right here we have another microcosm of the problem.

Thanks Brian.

Look, theres another solution here you either aren't seeing or haven't even tried to consider. Multiple solutions. You are apparently following the subject, you can still say "we arent going to take a position on this other than we wont warrant the part" if you want, just add "but here are some things you might want to consider as the end user".

Make it a word or notepad file or whatever, your sales/service reps have it. Its now a 2 second copy and paste. When you develop a new source of information or you have stories for or against, you simply modify the file periodically.

Customer gets more complete information without you engaging a scientific lab division, or a platoon of lawyers.

Not having information in the first place is understandable and the definition of classical ignorance - which is not a pejorative thing and should never be held against a manufacturer.

Commitment to and defense of sub par information simply because you apparently haven't thought through better ways to support your customers is less understandable given that it takes almost nothing to accumulate and pass on information - particularly in emails - these days.

Or lets add an FAQ page to the website that deals with the subject. Head the page with "It is the position of [Manufacturer] that the full effects of the nitriding process on the types of metals used in our products are not yet fully documented and can vary based on a wide variety of factors in completion of the process. Thus, parts which are subjected to this process will no longer be warranted by [Manufacturer].

We continue to gather information on this process and have presented this page as an informational resource to help answer questions and support our customers in individually making the decision whether to apply the process.

[Some links go here.]"

[EDIT: Toned down the ascerbic response a little bit in an attempt to be fair to the feedback that Brian provided.]
 
#4
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

We are considering this an experimental process. Lots of research still needs to be done from all sides. Passing on anecdotal information is not always the best course of action to solving the problem. Also, it can cause harm to those involved and halt any further scientific research. To be able to provide FACT and not hearsey, takes time and Patience.
 
#5
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brutas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are considering this an experimental process. Lots of research still needs to be done from all sides. Passing on anecdotal information is not always the best course of action to solving the problem. Also, it can cause harm to those involved and halt any further scientific research. To be able to provide FACT and not hearsey, takes time and Patience.</div></div>

Then don't include anecdotal info. Pass the buck to MMI and others.

As an example, say "Look, we are going to tell our customers we just don't know and we aren't going to cover us under warranty. We are putting together a form email on the subject and a page on our website.

Many of these customers are potentially your customers as well and we want to present this information in a fair and balanced way.

Can you provide us verifiable, factual information in that context as to the efficacy and risks of the process? Otherwise we are just going to present the liability side of things and that might leave an unfair negative impression of the process."

And then balance that on the negatives / potential harm side with what we know to happen when the process is done wrong or when it weakens/makes-brittle a structural part.

And-- significantly its important to note that in your two responses so far on this topic, I have already obtained a SIGNIFICANTLY greater understanding of the issue than I had before. I still dont have one iota of fact more than I had an hour ago. No statistics. No scientist or lawyer involvement.

But my understanding is greater because you provided a couple of extra sentences that gave context for why it simply voids warranty and no further position is taken - yet. Providing that context in an email to customers as a copy and paste type thing still provides hugely more value in supporting me as the customer than a single sentence dump, in effect: "Ill just say you wont get warranty support from us".

I don't think its unreasonable to ask for some context to help your customers. The age of the internet also means that when you get phone calls about it, your people can say "go to www.manufacturer.com/nitride and read our statment on the matter". And that approach actually REDUCES risk and helps to LIMIT liability as well because there is now, by policy, zero variance on what information (and how) is going to customers from various people in the support and sales pipelines. You can even include the URL and a small blurb in documentation that ships with products to cover yourself further in case of a future lawsuit.

"Well, gee, as of October 8, 2010, when the plaintiff's monkeyed-with-bubba-special structurally failed and allegedly caused injury, we had a consistent way of addressing this, including a dedicated paragraph and resource in the manual and in our service/sales conversations that said this was an emerging process and we werent willing to warrant the part after someone did this. We even went so far as to list that this can create a safety problem even when done correctly because we just did not know - and still do not - what the long term effects of applyinig this process to some of our parts will be."


[As an aside, and I should probably make this a separate conversation, while many manufacturers have made strides recently in this respect, a lot of parts makers, 'smiths, and even some of the most respected names in the firearms industry seem not to have entered the information age yet. The percentage of your audience using technology to learn about your products, including feedback on social networks like facebook, or social media like this forum, is only going to go up.

Having a mediocre website that doesnt provide information on subjects like this, or detailed product pages, can - in part - raise communications issues with customers. A lot of smiths on here complain (with good reason!) that people contact them too much and dont excersize patience. Imagine how much time you could free up if you had a work order tracking system that was exposed on your website and people could enter thier order number from your shop, get the latest updates on thier build, even a picture here or there, etc.

Yes, you lose a small piece of that spending 1 minute every time you update a build order but I wager you spend a lot more than the 5-10 minutes over the course of a customer build supporting that customer on average with phone calls and email responses.

There are a handful of companies that I serve as a web developer for that I am helping them fix that and similar issues right now, but no matter who does your work, I think there are technology solutions for current business problems that should be relatively inexpensive to some of the problems that we continually see pop up in threads like this.]
 
#6
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Oddball,

There has been a lot of talk. Rock Creek only send their barrels out to MMI Trutec (I believe) because they are the only ones they trust to apply the nitriding correctly. That said, there was the recent thread about MMI having cracks in a couple receivers following the process. Applying it correctly and knowing the value of the initial heat treat seem to be the issues here. Here is what I would do:

1. Find out the temperature that Surgeon's bar stock uses for heat treat.

2. Find out what temp the nitriding will be applied at. It is generally between 1000 and 1200 degrees when in the salt bath.

3. Limit yourself to MMI if you have to have it.

4. Talk with the guys at MMI

5. Make an educated decision.

There are a couple other coatings worth looking into for just the action. I realize one stop shopping is great, but not at the expense of the warranty and structural integrity of the weapon. Ionbond is one I would look at closely for the receiver. It is applied at a maximum of around 400 degrees. That won't affect the heat treatment, I assume it won't void the warranty, and it has a superior hardness to most anything out there. Salt spray test withstands 48 hours as well.

Josh
 
#7
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

I dont understand what the big rush is to this process all of the sudden , it has worked for some and it has failed badly for some even using the same brand barrel and actions sending them to the same company for the process.

Personaly I don't see any benifit to it that out weighs the possibility of ruining a $1500 barreled action.

I don't think people understand just how complicated things can get when you go dicking around with high temps and already heat treated parts , their are specific and very close temp ranges to deal with as well as specific dwell times and rate of cooling a little bit off with any of these can have a major impact on the strength of the part
 
#8
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Thanks very much for the reply
smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oddball,

There has been a lot of talk.</div></div>
That was one of the reasons I started this thread, because the advice in the other was that the action or barrel maker was the only authoritative source. Which made me frusterated when after collecting information on my own, I got such a low-detail response from Surgeon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. Find out the temperature that Surgeon's bar stock uses for heat treat.
</div></div>
I doubt surgeon would tell me. The RSR is out of 416R. Based on that, I know that tensile strength and brinell hardness of the steel will fall off a cliff above 900 degrees tempering temp, which is around the minimum for salt bath nitriding from MMI.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. Find out what temp the nitriding will be applied at. It is generally between 1000 and 1200 degrees when in the salt bath.
</div></div>
Assuming MMI, firearms are usually between 900 and 950 degrees.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. Limit yourself to MMI if you have to have it.
</div></div>
Agreed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
4. Talk with the guys at MMI
</div></div>
In progress.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a couple other coatings worth looking into for just the action. I realize one stop shopping is great, but not at the expense of the warranty and structural integrity of the weapon.</div></div>

Thanks for your advice on this. The bolt of the RSR is 4140, I was thinking that an alternative here would be to cerakote both action and barrel instead, and then still nitride the bolt because I want the protection without the coating thickness.

I will also look into ionbond as you have suggested.

Thanks again
smile.gif
 
#9
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Oddball,

I have seen a lot of talk about ionbond when it comes to 1911s. I have one that is awaiting the coating. Essentially, it is a PVD coating (physical vapor decomposition). These microscopic "tubes" are deposited standing upright on the surface. I think it is less than .001 thick, so it won't change tolerances too much. These tubes suck up any lubricant and use it to slick up the actions and prevent rust. Some people have talked about running their 1911s dry and having no issues. Wear itself is damn near non-existent. If you are familiar with the "Louder than Words" project, those guys are starting to use it almost exclusively, with the exception of blued pistols (use the awesome Glenrock Blue).

Contact Ryan Flynn at the below website. He used to be the in house gunsmith for Ionbond before striking out on his own. He, along with others, offers the coating. It is a little spendy, but will outlast most any other coating.

Aquilla Custom Gun Works

Josh
 
#10
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JJones75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont understand what the big rush is to this process all of the sudden , it has worked for some and it has failed badly for some even using the same brand barrel and actions sending them to the same company for the process.
</div></div>

Thats a great point.

The main thing that people like based on what I am seeing is the fact that it doesn't need much more than absolutely minimal lubrication, it is a treatment of the steel itself rather than a coating so there is nothing to flake or wear if successfully applied, and some folks have reported barrel life extensions of sometimes as much as 100%.

These all sound like great things but I think the second part about "risking" the integrity of $1500 parts is well-taken as well. I think that kind of information is only coming to light substantially very recently, and we dont know yet what the incidence is of the negative outcomes to the positive ones.

Brian is right to point out that we dont know what we dont know yet, and that is a difficult situation for a manufacturer of the underlying part to be in.
 
#12
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: subgunr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah yes.......the "magical solve all salt bath" heat treatment!!!!

The slogan "The best elixir for your stick" </div></div>

Makes elk and deer magically appear out of the trees, too!
 
#14
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

I'm the above referenced smith on odball's Surgeon build. I called Surgeon today and spent a while talking to Stephen about this. Surgeon actually does Nitride their bolts already and the things they've learned have helped them to make the decision to not warrant receivers that have been treated. If the process is done incorrectly, as in if the metal is left in the oven for 2-3 minutes long (I don't have any idea what kind of controls are in place at a Nitriding facility), it begins or can begin to soften the core of the metal, even though the surface has been hardened. If they (the manufacturer) have control over the process they can warrant it, if not they can't warrant what someone else has done. Stephen mentioned a batch of bolts that had been done incorrectly and having to be disposed of. That was a $68,000 error, which is cheaper than if they had gotten out of the shop and failed. In today's litigious society everyone has to worry about and think about liability and lawsuits and that's probably what's at the bottom of Surgeon's policy and their reticence to talk about it.

I also spoke with Krieger about this and they won't warrant a barrel that's been treated. Most custom barrel makers won't warrant a barrel if it's even lapped after leaving their facility. There is no way to know the quality of work that's being done by someone else.

At the end of the conversation with Stephen from Surgeon today I asked "So if I, as the rifle, builder have a receiver Nitride treated then I'm going to have to warrant it myself?". He said that is the case. Guess who's not going to offer Nitride treatment any more. As soon as I put that shoe on my foot I understood completely where he's coming from.

Joel Kendrick from MMI is a benchrest shooter and I think he even has a world record of some dort. I wish he'd chime in here and help us clear this up.

I hope this helps.
 
#15
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

The Salt Bath Nitriding process can not be used on all firearms components due to the material type and specific heat treat of these components. The components process must fit within the our process paramenters. We will not process components that do not fit our temperature range or components that the manufacturer does not agree with processing. As for the Surgeon actions we can not process, I can not speak on the damaged bolts other than MMI-Trutec did not process these components.
We can process components with known material type and heat treat that fit out control plan. We process out firearms components at temperatures less than 1000 deg F.

If you have additional questions please feel free to contact me by e-mail [email protected].
 
#16
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Thanks for participating Joel, I appreciate it. I didn't mean to imply in any way the MMI Trutec (Joel's people) had anything to do with thebolts mentioned to me by Surgeon, I don't know who that was.

I have used MMI in the past and for those who want to have an item Nitride treated I can say that Joel's customer service is good and he's extremely fast to respond to inquiries. The rifle I had done at MMI came out great and the shooter is very happy with it.
 
#17
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

I owe a debt of gratitude to the number of smiths who have reached out offline to me via Private Messages and shared experiences, hard data, and instances of problems (and successes!) with the nitriding process for their various products.

Assembling these different experience leads me to a few conclusions based on this evidence.

- MMI's nitriding process sis one of the most firearms-friendly processes out there and Joel specifically has a good deal of experience in the special needs of the platform.

- There are materials more suitable to the process than others.

- 416R and 4340 Appear to be fairly well suited to the process, however 300 and 500 series steels as well as those of indeterminate origin or processing are potentially dangerous to process in this way. 4140 may not be "dangerous" to process in this way but was fairly consistently dis-recommended for the treatment if it is a bolt, however may be suitable in other configurations where broader amounts of "core" material are available and/or the part is under less stress.

- The stories of process failure thus far can be traced back to a pre-existing flaw in the unit processed or to the type of material that was used (knowingly or unknowingly).

- Despite material suitability there are some manufacturers (like Surgeon) who have made a "bright line" determination that because of the potential for failure if done wrong, and the possible associated liability form that event, OR from poor past experience (warranted or not), that no product may go through the nitriding process.

- Finally, nearly everyone I spoke to concurred with the thought that this is a fairly emerging area of the craft and that we are likely to reach a point where more information is known, more smiths will have a broader base of experience as to the different types of nitriding out there and until a smith can differentiate stories related to one type of process, from another, it will continue to be an unclear picture.

Some of the basic thoughts from my posts earlier in the thread remain unchanged.

- Surgeon (and others) still needs to understand that when people are buying thousand dollar parts (or combinations of parts, in my case an RSR, lug, rail kit, and 2 bolt knobs from them), the customers are going to have higher expectations for the service they can expect than they will if they are buying nails, or a new set of dishes, or whatever. Particularly when you sell parts that are made to combine with other parts to form a usable product.

- If the emails and phone calls are distracting you from your making stuff, then recognize that taking care of your customers is just as much a part of your business model as the actual machining and mating of parts is. Like any other problem in business, find a solution. Maybe its updating your website. Maybe its hiring a guy whose job it is half the time to answer those questions. Maybe its doing some of a few different things.

- Many firearms industry companies are hopelessly out of date on the website side of things and/or email. Folks, we are in the information age. If you want me to not bother you when I need key information, then make your tolerances and material information available and reasonably able to be found. Make your warranty stance on certain types of modifications that are (and are not!) supported published and clear on that site.

We live in the information age. The shooting audience will increasingly be composed of computer-savvy individuals, or at least computer-capable. Even those buying products in thier 30s, 40s and 50s are in a society where they are forced to be able to use the internet.

Information conveyance using your website can be an important part of the business case for having one in the first place, it is not just a sales / expected presence tool anymore.



Given that Oneeyedmac has come out and identified himself, which I was trying not to do, I think its only fair to add that he has been an absolute gem throughout this whole process and that I want to explicitly state that I do not think any blame resides with the 'smith on this one. He took the time to discuss the challenge with me, to talk to surgeon (as he was as unaware of thier stance as I was), to talk to MMI, and to look at the problem from his own perspective. We aren't quite finished figuring this one out but the patience and engagement to work together on this really says a lot about the caliber of his business.

He is a great guy and even though its not a popular name on here right now, here is hoping that Excorio has a bright future in the shooting community.



Again, thank you to all of the folks who reached out with information, links or pointers, some great information and alternatives to consider were provided and I am going down that road.

At the end of the day, Surgeon's stance on MMI's process - and they way they deal with thier customers - means that I have information now that I (and apparently no one) had back in April that indicates I shouldn't have bought an RSR and since I have (and its not fair to expect Excorio to be affected by this) I need to find another finish that will meet my needs.
 
#18
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

You can also check out Eilfer-Lafer for PVD coatings. I have been having these PVD coatings applied to my 1911 and 2011 pistols for some time. Thay have several coatings (colors) to choose from and the actual thickness is in the .0002" per surface range. I have been coating my 416R pistols barrels and comps with it for some time.

These are a very hard and wear resisant set of coating and I also use them for some of my tooling.

You can ask for Dave.

(http://www.eifeler-lafer.com/)
 
#20
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

The action is one thing. The barrel is another. The whole reason melonite/isonite/whatever-nite is such a big deal is that it can be applied to the bore and drastically increases barrel life without affecting accuracy when done correctly. Right now, the PVD coatings cannot be applied reliably to the bore. I believe Ionbond was working on a method for the military (or so I heard) to apply the PVD coating down a bore, but have not heard anything else. Really, I think cerakote or a PVD coating is all you need for the action, but if you can get double or triple the barrel life with melonite that would be amazing. People have to try the stuff to obtain the data. It's just the nature of the beast.

Josh
 
#21
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

One thing you need to understand is any advice given can be used against the manufacture of the failed part in court. If they say anything other than "it will void the warrantee" then they open themselves up to whatever a good lawyer can dream up.

As far as the coating goes it can do some great things for parts rubbing against another part, but your bolt and action that have low wear. Maybe it increases the life of your barrel, maybe it ruins it. But, how many barrels have you actually shot out? Cost wise you should look else ware if it is to save money.
On a bolt, I cant decide if I would want it or not. I haven't had issues without it, so im not sure why I would want to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

If you are just going after a coating IMO there are better and safer options.
 
#22
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

If I were Surgeon I would advise you to find a new action. You obviously don't get the hints they were trying to give. Also, calling will always get more info than emailing, it's not like they have time to answer emails with specifics on their opinions of the process, heat treating, the pros and cons, the process and temps used by diferent Nitriders, etc etc etc

They tell you it's ok and your action fails because of something out of their control (the nitrider overheating it) and you or your estate will sue them because they said it was ok? Likely.

Like Glen stated, any other answer, especially over email, will likely get them in hot water due to liability.
 
#23
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I owe a debt of gratitude to the number of smiths who have reached out offline to me via Private Messages and shared experiences, hard data, and instances of problems (and successes!) with the nitriding process for their various products.

Assembling these different experience leads me to a few conclusions based on this evidence.

- 416R and 4340 Appear to be fairly well suited to the process, however 300 and 500 series steels as well as those of indeterminate origin or processing are potentially dangerous to process in this way.

At the end of the day, Surgeon's stance on MMI's process - and they way they deal with thier customers - means that I have information now that I (and apparently no one) had back in April that indicates I shouldn't have bought an RSR and since I have (and its not fair to expect Excorio to be affected by this) I need to find another finish that will meet my needs. </div></div>

I'm curious, if Surgeon had said it was OK, would you now go ahead and Melonite your 416R RSR action? Your comment above about suitability implies that you might.

There has been enough info posted by Jerry Stiller and Joel Kendrick (plus you can find the underlying supporting data in the same places you've been looking) to convince me that it is a bad idea to melonite/isonite/SBN a rifle action body made of 416R (which has been tempered to a higher hardness than a rifle barrel).

Was this refuted in the offline data you received?

If not, then it would seem Surgeon did the right thing, in a somewhat succinct manner, not only for them, but for you in terms of your safety.
 
#24
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coriolis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm curious, if Surgeon had said it was OK, would you now go ahead and Melonite your 416R RSR action? Your comment above about suitability implies that you might.
</div></div>

I chose this particular process to enhance the wear, etc, characteristics of the bolt, action, and barrel, not (directly) to save money, so to speak. You don't build custom rifles on the cheap. You look for what you want and build what you want/need.

If the underlying safety concerns were removed. E.g. If Rather than them saying "its not really good but we will ok it" it were "it were safe to do so", then yes. But its clear that they do not feel it is safe to do so.

There is/was no way to tell any of this 7 months ago when I ordered the build configuration. Just to get information on tolerances, I had to email surgeon. Many of the types of things that have come out in this thread are not on thier site and the only way you can find out some of these things IS to reach out to them. Thus given the information I have now, that I did not have post-email from surgeon or pre-purchase from surgeon, I would not have bought a surgeon action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There has been enough info posted by Jerry Stiller and Joel Kendrick (plus you can find the underlying supporting data in the same places you've been looking) to convince me that it is a bad idea to melonite/isonite/SBN a rifle action body made of 416R (which has been tempered to a higher hardness than a rifle barrel).
</div></div>
Completely agree with this. The information I have gotten offline has been consistent on this fact that "its probably safe" but the risk of failure is too great and the chance for something bad to happen is too great as well.

I think surgeon put it best on the phone when they said "well if it fails after being nitrided it <span style="font-style: italic">probably</span> wont kill you".
It was said tongue in cheek but the point was clear.

Even before posting this thread, the short response re: warranty was enough to go back to my smith and say "wait we need to rethink this, are you aware of surgeon's stance on this?".

Turns out that he and several other folks I talked to in the odyssey online and off that this thread created were not even aware of surgeon's stance on this, either. So the backlash treating me like an idiot for having the audacity to ask the question via email is kind of off target here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If not, then it would seem Surgeon did the right thing, in a somewhat succinct manner, not only for them, but for you in terms of your safety.
</div></div>

I agree with this, actually. And my beef with the whole process is not taking a stance they needed to take consistent with the safety of thier customers or with thier own liability. I think thats what a lot of folks reading this have latched on to.

My problem is that they seem to take the perspective that just because they produce 1000 of a 700 dollar part that we on the end of buying it should be treated like the manufacturer of a box of nails or a hammer would when talking to a customer.

You build parts. Those parts have a million things that can be done with them and combinations with other parts to arrive at a finished product (the rifle).

Thus, questions are not only likely, they are expected. As one of the more expensive components in the rifle build, the expectations that a customer has with regard to the support they recieve from the manufacturer is going to be significant compared to, say, a scope base, a sling mount or adapter, a bipod, etc.

In this case, they took the position they needed to take. No problem there. But the website, the support interface, etc, has no information on any of this and to turn around and the only information you get from the whole process is "we wont warranty it" with no context at all ("because our experience so far has indicated it is unsafe" would have tripled or more the information provided in the email back).

The whole "we cant spend time with our customers" thing is a load of shit.

1) It took less than 5 seconds to add the sentence above. If you are emailing me back to provide the warranty quote I have provided several different approaches to add more information for your customer's experience. From the sentence above, to a copy and paste type solution proposed in an earlier post.

1a) I find it funny that many in this thread would suggest an interruptive phone call should be preferable as a support avenue over email. Email can be deferred, shared, and administered when it makes sense (from a time/commitment perspective) for the manufacturer. I choose the LESS intrusive means to ask my questions, actually, intentionally, as a I generally try to do with many businesses.

2) Thats part of why you have a website, as an information medium as much as it is a sales tool.

3) As per above, when you sell customers $700 -> $1500 parts whose combination with other parts is necessary, you should expect questions and have planned (and priced into your model) dealing with them. I bought an action, rail assembly, barrel lug, a couple of knobs and the support side of things was far less than I have received from a scope rail manufacturer in the past.


My problem is not the answer I received. That was the answer they needed to give, and I am not going to gamble with my safety or that of anyone else. Nitriding is out. My problem is the poor experience in dealing with surgeon to get information that there was no other reasonable source to obtain it.
 
#25
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

The real issue for us is the heat treat state. 416 materials are different in the fact that treatment between 750 and 1000 deg F puts the material in a no mans land for toughness and ductility. There is no data on what these parameters are by the steel manufacturers because the steel matrix is left in a somewhat unstable state. We stop our treatment at 700 deg F and whatever the Rc is, it is (normally about 42). If you go past it to 1050 or so, it is too soft. I have measured a few factory actions in a Rc range that will put them in the no-mans land which kind of tells me they are treating them into that area, but I dont know much about them and their design and as an engineer, am unwilling to build something I cannot define well. Maybe the factory makers have done some testing and know whats going on here, but my steel suppliers and metallurgists I have asked have definately said to stay away from that region.

I dont know where Surgeon treats their material to etc and they may not even know about the above issues, but nitriding in the temp area they are using can be an issue for 416 type of material. I wouldnt give them too much trouble for not being able to definatively answer this question. I have been doing designs like this for 25 years and I spent hours doing the research and testing before I came to our heat treat answers. Either way, customer service from all of us is important, and no questions should be taken lightly.
 
#26
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Given that you may alter the heat treat on the action, Surgeon is taking a perfectly reasonable position. This is an after-market modification and they have no obligation to support or stand behind the product once you modify it. Nor do they have any obligation to do research on your aftermarket mods if they don't want to...

I have read of a few instances where an action was damaged by this process. Furthermore, I don't see what you hope to accomplish buy doing it on your action.

I plan to nitride several 243WIN barrels to increase barrel life and have heard very positive feedback from plenty of good shooters. I have no intent to do this to my action, don't see any benefit.

PS. Grow up Oddball.
 
#28
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given that you may alter the heat treat on the action, Surgeon is taking a perfectly reasonable position. This is an after-market modification and they have no obligation to support or stand behind the product once you modify it. Nor do they have any obligation to do research on your aftermarket mods if they don't want to...

I have read of a few instances where an action was damaged by this process. Furthermore, I don't see what you hope to accomplish buy doing it on your action.

I plan to nitride several 243WIN barrels to increase barrel life and have heard very positive feedback from plenty of good shooters. I have no intent to do this to my action, don't see any benefit.

PS. Grow up Oddball.</div></div>

Thank you very much for the additive information with your experience. Its useful to have another data point.

Your criticisms however continue to be a subject that is not the primary thrust of the thread or my complaint vis-a-vis Surgeon Rifles and/or the state of the industry in general.
 
#29
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

There would be no way in Holy Hades that as a manufacturer of actions/barrels I would go for stuff being nitrided as you wish to do (or have done?).

Firstoff, the material moving around during the process is a near certainty so all tight tolerance features should be retouched post heat-treat.
Secondly, if the nitriding process is not done correctly it can affect the material properties. "Done correctly" also includes masking. For example, one does not nitride threads. I deal with more precise components that are nitrided on a not quite daily basis for a living and have seen firsthand nitrided threads fail.
Thinking about this as I type, you also typically need to remove the white layer from load bearing surfaces....

Heat treating/carburizing/nitriding of critical/precise components is an exact science, while I understand that it's a process that's in vogue right now, I wouldn't touch it as a 'hot rod' process.

Let me put it to you this way, we frequently order lots of components that are $xx,xxx each. One is ALWAYS cut up in a new lot (in PARTICULAR from a new vendor anywhere in processing) to check core hardness and heat treatment (which is nitriding for ~2weeks in the oven).

We do this and STILL get caught out from time to rare time.
 
#30
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AlterEgo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Let me put it to you this way, we frequently order lots of components that are $xx,xxx each. One is ALWAYS cut up in a new lot (in PARTICULAR from a new vendor anywhere in processing) to check core hardness and heat treatment (which is nitriding for ~2weeks in the oven).

We do this and STILL get caught out from time to rare time.</div></div>

Thank you very much for sharing this experience.

Would it be possible to share the kinds of things you have found in the cross-section inspection? How rare is it for a batch to turn out of poor quality.

At this point I think its pretty clear that nitride is NOT being applied to my action/barrel, but the information that has come out because of this thread is still interesting and I think that it can really help others making a similar decision to mine in future, hopefully with more information than I had.

[Hopefully at least one manufacturer rep somewhere reads this thread and it will lead to better communication on this -or other- issue(s) in some incremental way as well.]
 
#31
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

Oddball very interesting thread indeed. May I estimate with the length and depth of your inquiries that it will probably take "oneeyedmac" approximately 2 to 3 years to finish your build.

Good Luck!! lol
 
#32
Re: Manufacturer Useless on Nitriding

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oddball very interesting thread indeed. May I estimate with the length and depth of your inquiries that it will probably take "oneeyedmac" approximately 2 to 3 years to finish your build.

Good Luck!! lol</div></div>

I collect information like some people collect patches... or women
laugh.gif


More seriously, oneeyedmac has been outstanding and I generally try to leave him alone. My stick is paid off with him and he gets to it when he gets to it. We have to rethink a couple of things on it now, but we will get around to it when he has time.

And-- not specific to his business as his support has been outstanding when I ask for a moment of his time -- but generally on the state of the firearm industry in general, that is precisely one of my points.

If you cant handle the questions that come up in the normal course of business, are you really a business or a machine shop that happens to have customers? Questions are part of the business, as evidenced by the bitching of every machine shop on the face of the earth who have customers asking them questions. Its not just me.

If its causing pain for your ability to machine, then seek to solve the problem, either with better communication mechanisms that DONT get staffed, or by choosing a method of staffing and investment that makes sense to help enable your business forward.
 
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