Advanced Marksmanship Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

#51
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Team matches are a plus for anyone. I use this tool with my juniors, scopping their shots and the immediate good from the coach helps to make a mental note right now so they understand what a good shot looks like and can then continue to attain the same picture and position.

There is a great deal of very helpful information on this site but we all know that we have some arm chair QB's here also. Be careful to whom you listen to. Those with the credentials are always the best and most helpful. My .02
 
#52
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 264shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am always interested in learnig how to be a better shooter.

I would like to read more on trouble shooting and shooter/target analysis.

Some days I'm on and then the next time out I stuggle and it gets frustrating.

I know my gear and it's not the poroblem, so I have to think it's my errors that I see on the target...

More information and quality practice, will make me a better shooter.
Thanks</div></div>

Shooter/target analysis is not difficult when you begin with this fact: the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed. Think about it, what this means is that if you did not hit where aimed, you did not know where the rifle was pointed. So how do you know where the rifle is pointed? That's to say, what are the things that indicate to you where the barrel is pointed and help you to maintain the recognition until the bullet has cleared the barrel? These are the things you analyze, and mostly, these things are in the trouble shooting arena of sight alignment, trigger control, and position.

To master analysis you must follow though to be able to call your shot. Plotting it, as well as the actual strike of the bullet will allow appraisal of the the corollary for a very quick understanding about the source of error, unless perhaps you have a multitude of errors. For the best results, get a spotting scope for your live fire practice, and dry fire too with emphasis on calling the shot.
 
#53
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

I think the guys have summed it up pretty well and anyone that wants to become a better rifleman should put all of this in their notebooks.

I would only add that while a service rifle is a great way to get started and learn fundamentals and progress in the game, I do believe it has some limiting factors. First being the fact that you have to adjust yourself to the rifle. With a match rifle, you do not have to do this, you can adapt and adjust the rifle to you, the shooter/operator. Second, for older farts, the sights can be an issue on the service rifle. With a MR, its rarely an issue. Third, cartridge. With a SR, youre limited to 223 or 308. While both are great catridges, they do have their limitations. With a MR, you can run whatever you want. Fourth, and most importantly, I think, is that the MR gives you WAY more feedback than the SR does. When I started out, I shot the SR, and loved it. Then, within just a few years, my eyes started "going" on me and I started dabbling with the match rifle. Seeing the sights was great, but getting used to a much more complicated rifle took some time. As a result, my HM scores dropped to MA scores for a while, but once I got the hang of it, my scores jumped up to higher than they were with the SR. Not only did I have a better rifle, I started learning more about what i was still doing wrong and only got that feedback by switching rifles. My shot call radius with the SR is probably 3-4x the size of my MR call radius, if not larger. That alone helped immensely.

But, all the fundamentals are the same, one just needs to apply them consistently time and time again. BTW, I can go back now and shoot the SR just a few times per year but I shoot as good or better scores with it now than I did back when i shot it all the time.....what I lost in vision, I gained in technique, etc.

Have fun!
John
 
#54
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: duaneb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is a great deal of very helpful information on this site but we all know that we have some arm chair QB's here also. Be careful to whom you listen to. Those with the credentials are always the best and most helpful. My .02</div></div>

There are some very stubborn professors here who are quick to challenge any ideas about good shooting which are at odds with how they do it. I'm receptive nevertheless to ideas from anyone who can do it, no matter how they're doing it, whether they have credentials or not. And, while credentials certainly demonstrate who can do it, such distinctions are meaningless for coming to an understanding about who can teach it. When I began my own journey I sought instruction from the most credentialed shooter I could find, a guy who had won a room full of HP trophies. Yet, this very close friend of mine did not have a clue about how to effectively show me how to do it. It was later when I eventually got professional training from occupational trainers, who also had credentials, that I actually learned something about good shooting. My point is for anyone wanting to learn how to shoot, and there are not many who do, since most folks think they already know how to do it, getting someone who can teach it is as important as their credentials showing they know how to do it. Results are the best indicators of a shooting instructors competence. Listen to what the student has to say, as well as what improvement came about.
 
#55
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Some good points from Sterling there! Like myself, I cant teach worth a hoot. I help with our jr program now and then, but I leave the real instruction up to our jr program coach, cause he has the ability to impart the knowledge to the kids, I dont. I dont even plan on coaching my own son, I will hand him off to Bob and let the coach to his thing and I will stay out of the way.

And, keep in mind that you can learn from ANYONE out there. I have picked up tidbits from Marksman class shooters and when it works for me, I incorporate it into my game. Someone doesnt have to be a HM, Distinguished and P100 to impart some knowledge to you! Those that look around and soak up things like a sponge get ahead of the game.

As for armchair quarterbacks, the Net is full of them....but for some reason, I never seem to meet them on the range. Go figure......

John
 
#57
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for armchair quarterbacks, the Net is full of them....but for some reason, I never seem to meet them on the range. Go figure......</div></div>

That's funny, but true: Hard to dispute when you look at the stats on this forum.

Advanced Marksmanhip = 7943 post

Bolt Action Rifles = 160,720 post

Semi Auto Rifles = 22,079

As of 11:10 MST Sept 28, 2010



Folks, its the Fundamentals not the Equipment

You can't gimic your way to good shooting.


PS: To Add ref Data Books and recording EVERYTHING

To Quote Carlos Hathcock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if a fly had gone by the rifle and farted while shooting, I want see recorded</div></div>
 
#58
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for armchair quarterbacks, the Net is full of them....but for some reason, I never seem to meet them on the range. Go figure......</div></div>

That's funny, but true: Hard to dispute when you look at the stats on this forum.

Advanced Marksmanhip = 7943 post

Bolt Action Rifles = 160,720 post

Semi Auto Rifles = 22,079

As of 11:10 MST Sept 28, 2010



Folks, its the Fundamentals not the Equipment

You can't gimic your way to good shooting.


PS: To Add ref Data Books and recording EVERYTHING

To Quote Carlos Hathcock

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if a fly had gone by the rifle and farted while shooting, I want see recorded</div></div> </div></div>

I need to do better.......
 
#59
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Heck, we all do Chiller! We all spend too much time talking about the game rather than participating, be is competition or practice. I am a perfect example. I have our short course state championship coming up this weekend and I know full well my offhand has been lacking lately but instead of practicing, I have been farting around. Instead, i really need to be in the garage dry firing, or, as luck would have it, I have a Rika and just havent been industrious enough to get it set back up! Talk about a slackass! Yeah, that would be me. No excuses for not putting in teh work and if I dont retain my title, then its all my fault and I have only me to blame. :)

John
 
#62
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Rika's will not be in country until November from what I have been told. That being said between you and 9H I am on the list for one. </div></div>

To quote Sir Charleston, "From my cold dead hands!!!" trying to get mine from me...
 
#63
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Rika's will not be in country until November from what I have been told. That being said between you and 9H I am on the list for one. </div></div>

To quote Sir Charleston, "From my cold dead hands!!!" trying to get mine from me... </div></div>

You realize you are the one who put me on to those as a trainer.....
crazy.gif
 
#64
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Rika's will not be in country until November from what I have been told. That being said between you and 9H I am on the list for one. </div></div>

To quote Sir Charleston, "From my cold dead hands!!!" trying to get mine from me... </div></div>

You cant have mine either. Or even the Biathlon trainer.
 
#65
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hoser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Rika's will not be in country until November from what I have been told. That being said between you and 9H I am on the list for one. </div></div>

To quote Sir Charleston, "From my cold dead hands!!!" trying to get mine from me... </div></div>

You cant have mine either. Or even the Biathlon trainer. </div></div>

Now you are just taunting me......
 
#66
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now you are just taunting me...... </div></div>

Its what I do.
 
#67
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

I have a question about calling shots. If I am shooting prone, and not pushing a bad shot, shouldn't my reticle be on my target when the trigger breaks?

Yes, I can tell when I've really blown a shot from a flinch or what ever. But for most shots, the reticle is on the target when the trigger breaks. This is prone with a bipod.

I think there is something I'm missing about this, but I don't know what?
 
#68
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">shouldn't my reticle be on my target when the trigger breaks?</div></div>

Yes record the call from what you see throgut the sights/scope the instant the shot is released. Do this before you look at the target to see the hit. Then record the the shot it's self.

Do this for a string of shoots ( the more, the better). Now you can compare your calls with the actual hits. That should tell you what you are doing wrong, or what the zero should be for this rifle/ammo combination.
 
#69
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes, I can tell when I've really blown a shot from a flinch or what ever. But for most shots, the reticle is on the target when the trigger breaks. This is prone with a bipod.

</div></div>

If the reticle appeared to be over the x-ring, then, you'd call it right-in-there, and plot it in your data/score book as an x-ring hit. If it appeared the shot went somewhere else, let's say if it hit left of the x, you'd call it 9 o'clock.

As Kraig mentioned, the corollary between the call and actual strike allows for proper analysis.

BTW, you know who can and cannot call shots at this time of the year when you see folks zeroing their deer rifles at the range. Those who leave a mountain of brass, leaving the range muttering "that gun don't shoot" don't know anything about calling the shot and it shows. They depend on the strike to set them straight, but, since a misplaced shot can come from a poor position as much as a sight in need of adjustment, these folks commonly adjust the sight for their bad shot. From there it all goes down hill really fast. If these folks knew about the importance of calling their shots they could confirm zeros with a single shot. That's to say, if they called the shot at 3 o'clock and then discovered the strike at 3, there would be little need to adjust the sight. However, not knowing the importance of calling the shot, these folks instead grab the windage knob and start crankin'. Of course, now the next shot, if there were no shooter error, would be out at 9 o'clock somewhere. It's really sadly funny watching a guy chase his tail. Fortunately, even the ignorant shooter, who at least reads his scope's instruction manual, can get the job done by shooting a five shot group before attempting to crank on anything.
 
#70
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Being able to call the shot is a direct consequence of good trigger manipulation. If you can't call the shot, the first likelihood is that somehow, even subconsciously, the breaking of the shot is not a surprise.

The correct sequence is establishing and maintaining sight picture, then initiating natural respiratory pause while transitioning from trigger squeeze through followthrough. If that's not happening, the shot is bound to be flawed.

Greg
 
#71
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Maintaining focus on the sight while following through will pretty much assure the shooter will be able to call the shot. No focus, no follow through, no call. BTW, a simple mental management program in the order as follows: sight alignment, NPA adjustment, focus on sight, smooth trigger control, and follow through will certainly get good calls for most every shot.
 
#72
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Kraig, that refinement of definition - from shot break thru recoil - makes the difference. Hopefully, the reticle is on the target AT shot break every time. What happens after that is the problem.

Greg, can you explain more about your comment that the breaking of the shot is not a surprise. With my old trigger the pull and break were inconsistant, and the break was a surprise. With my new trigger, there is no surprise. I'm not clear why there should be?

Sterling, maintaining focus on the reticle during the shot is a newly learned thing for me. It certainly made a difference for me.


If I generally shoot 1 MOA with my rifle/ammo, at what point should I be able to call a shot "out"? Meaning, if all shots in a string are within 1.5 MOA should I be able to distinguish the calls between those inside 1 MOA and those outside of 1 MOA but inside of 1.5 MOA? Right now, a shot has to be outside of 2 MOA for me to be able to call it. By focusing on the reticle thru the shot and then basing the call on the movement of the reticle, maybe I can refine that some more?

Thanks.
 
#73
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Could it be caused by you not keeping your eyes open all the way through the follow through? Maybe due to antisipating recoil, closing your eyes and flinching at that very moment.
 
#75
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

When the mind can anticipate the break, it does involuntary things in anticipation of the noise and recoil.

If you've ever squeezed off on an unexected dummy round and flinched, you understand the problem. A coach can spot a flinch by observing the aiming eye as the shot breaks, if the blink is before the break, it's a flinch, after, it's not.

If the break is a true surprise, no involuntary muscular twitches, etc., can interfere with maintaining the proper relaxation and sight picture.

Until you can consistently call the shot, you really don't know where the rifle was pointed when the round ignited. If you're actually flinching, the odds are better than even that it's <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> still pointed at the intended POA.

You can train your way through and out of a case of the flinch by balancing a penny on the muzzle and dry firing. The penny should remain balanced on the muzzle after the striker follows through.

Greg
 
#76
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Greg,

I thought that is what you meant. I'll have to search for it, but I thought I remembered a post where Frank explained that the shot should never be a surprise. Based on that, I've focused on not letting it be surprise. Maybe I need to re-read what he wrote to see if I interpreted it wrong, or if he was referring to something else.

I'll give it a try next time I'm out and see what happens.

Thanks.
 
#77
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

I know when the shot is going off. I used to do the "surprise" thing but it doesnt work for me. When I break the shot, its on purpose and deliberate. Seems to be working just fine. My call radius is approximately 1/3 minute prone, when things are clicking right. (thats shooting irons, from a sling, of course)

John
 
#78
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

I'm telling you what I was taught. Frank does what Frank does, and Greg does what Greg does. Choose your own poison.
 
#79
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

For some folks the shot being a surprise thing works, for me, it can, but I tend to do a bit better being "agressive" on the trigger. That does NOT mean jerking it, or such, but I dont "inch" it back at a snails pace and set it off. I have my comp guns set where the 2nd stage only takes about 8 ozs to break, so it doesnt take much and when I get to the 2nd stage ,it only takes a little movement to drop the hammer. The key is not moving during that sequence of events. :)
 
#81
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll try the surprise way next time I get out. I didn't realize it was an option that was part of shooting well. I'm still learning a lot around here.</div></div>

There are many ways trigger pull has been described, pull, jerk, squeeze, surprise break, yank, etc. However, the best description for what is desired is SMOOTH. Smooth can be fast, or deliberate. Can a surprise break be fast? Rapid fire might be a problem for someone who's built motor memory on the surprise concept. This leads to the question can fast be smooth? HP shooters, even those who are just getting into it, can typically get about 50 percent of their shots in the MOA X-ring when thinking smooth, so I'd say smooth is indeed possible for fast. At any rate, remember trigger control is a mental concept, simply a recognition for the importance of pulling the trigger in a manner that does not disturb aim. It's when concepts like SMOOTH are not honored in the shooter's mental management program that things don't work out. Some really good shooters who know everything about good shooting can sometimes get their focus so much on the sight that in a rapid fire string there will be an on call shot way off from right-in-there just because the concept of smooth was lost for a moment.
 
#82
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

Sled, about that learning, yes you are; quite rapidly, and quite well.

I am personally impressed with your progress. Your humility serves you well, but you have reached the stage where it should be tempered with well earned confidence.

Remember, marksmanship is a perishable skill. That's why a .22 is so valuable to the serious marksman. Maintaining an ample stock of .22 ammo and shooting regularly to keep that stock fresh, and your skills fresh, is the path to success.

Greg
 
#83
Re: Marksmanship in a Minute, Service Rifle Shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For some folks the shot being a surprise thing works, for me, it can, but I tend to do a bit better being "agressive" on the trigger. That does NOT mean jerking it, or such, but I dont "inch" it back at a snails pace and set it off. I have my comp guns set where the 2nd stage only takes about 8 ozs to break, so it doesnt take much and when I get to the 2nd stage ,it only takes a little movement to drop the hammer. The key is not moving during that sequence of events. :)
</div></div>

Sling and coat makes it much easier for the shooter to be "dead" other than the steady grip pressure and the increasing of pressure while maintaining the same finger placement/feeling of contact from the trigger itself than bipod/bag IMO.

For slow fire deliberate shots, regardless of sling/coat or bipod/bag, once I settle the trigger finger on the face of the trigger in my head I'm saying "pressure pressure pressure pressure" until the rifle goes BANG. It is a steady increasing in pressure until the break occurs, the whole time watching the sight picture for perfection. If the sight picture goes bad, I can abort the shot by simply stopping the increase in pressure and slowly letting it back off, the whole time keeping the body "dead".

This degree of isolation - mind, body, finger - both on and off the shot - is what it takes for me to deliver my best shots.

Additionally, thinking of follow-through as a "step" in the shot process is something I have departed from in my coaching and shooting. Follow-through really is nothing more than the same place you were prior to the shot breaking. The actual firing of the rifle is an "oh by the way it went BANG" in your process rather than the result of your process.

Recent bullseye pistol shooting practice is really driving this home for me. One way of looking at it is there IS NO SHOT and there IS NO FOLLOW-THROUGH - there is just this "dead" state with pressure on the trigger, a slight increase that results in the shot breaking, independent of all other activity.

This mental approach is allowing the pistol to come right back down on target with the sights aligned, something essential for rapid fire. I do nothing but maintain the same body, arm, and hand pressure for the whole rapid string, with a trigger re-set slipped in there 4 times.
 
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