Re: Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That has to be one of the most incredibly off track posts I've seen yet.
Everything you do as an infantryman (assuming that is what you do) is for nothing if you don't have an individual weapon- an Rtard can go kill people without tactical training- a tactical expert can't do a whole hell of a lot without a weapon.
I really cannot believe I just read such ignorance.
EDIT: Really- that is perhaps the worst thing I've read on this entire page. How long have you been in? What branch? MOS? How do you expect to capture and hold an objective if you can't provide effective fire? Garand? REALLY??? That's only slightly less ridiculous than saying a Springfield 1903. </div></div>
Yes I am sure you have your idea of what warefare is inside your head. However real life is a lot different.
If you get the other guy to keep his head down because your unit successfully laid down suppressive fire with the main MG, then you already won. Does not matter if most of the squad/platoon have M16s or Garands.
I am not in any more, I was a 12B and we sometimes get broken up and assign to 11B units. We did not really train with individual weapons as much as you think we did.
We trained tactics, trained conditioning, mostly conditioning... train fire and moving while most of the long range suppressor fire came from the M60's and Mah Deauces. M203, AT4's and LAWs were also emulated. We emulating firing mortars (I was not a mortar man) and moving after the mortar was fired.
Reality is this: you can lay down all the small arms fire you want, but for the most part what takes out an enemy position is a tank, mortar, or even tube launchers such as an AT4. Key is to get close enough to use these weapons.
"Cover me while I move" works just as well with all weapons but better if it is a 556 M4 because a gun that shoots a 556 round is lighter so you can move easier, and the 556 round is smaller so therefore you can carry more rounds to give more suppressive fire. More suppressive fire means more likely the other guy keeps his head down your unit can move easier and set up the next FOREWARD machine gun position. REPEAT until you are on top of the enemy.
The Garand is not going to provide as good as covering fire as say a M16 because of the decrease payload, but it can be done. Most of your covering fire will be coming from Machine Guns such as M1919's, M60, M240, and M2's anyways. If your tactics are sound, and you understand fire and moving, coordinated, disciplined, etc, it can be done. Tell these guys it can't be done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%A9court_Manor_Assault. If they had mortars the job would have been easier.
However, again we are talking about DMR weapons here that shoot a .308 round to put longer range support in the hands of a few men at the squad level. Original question was M16 vs. M14 or if we carried it. But if you want to get off topic, I can, and I can do you the favor of even keeping it off topic. Not my job to get a thread back on topic.
Let me ask you this? If you are in, how much time do you spend PT comparing to firing real ammo? How much more blanks do you use compared to real ammo?
Edit: to make link hot </div></div>
Okay... I'm short on time, so the extent of my reply will be this...
When I need to know how to lay a road, clear obstacles or maybe demo a bridge... I'll give you a call.
You should defer small unit tactics, weapons employment, use of fires, precision fires and infantry tactics to those who actually ARE combat arms (infantry, scout, 18 series)...
In other words, you're arguing a point for which you have marginal experience and knowledge against persons (myself, gunfighter) who are/were SME's compared to a 12 series.
Blanks? LOL I haven't fired a blank in at least 5 or 6 years, maybe more (yes I am still in)
I'll touch on the rest when I have more time.
EDIT: upon further consideration I have fired blanks within the last two years in stalking exercises. But not so much in M4's. Simmunitions are the wave of the future- at least I hope they fully replace blanks for all practical purposes at some point.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That has to be one of the most incredibly off track posts I've seen yet.
Everything you do as an infantryman (assuming that is what you do) is for nothing if you don't have an individual weapon- an Rtard can go kill people without tactical training- a tactical expert can't do a whole hell of a lot without a weapon.
I really cannot believe I just read such ignorance.
EDIT: Really- that is perhaps the worst thing I've read on this entire page. How long have you been in? What branch? MOS? How do you expect to capture and hold an objective if you can't provide effective fire? Garand? REALLY??? That's only slightly less ridiculous than saying a Springfield 1903. </div></div>
Yes I am sure you have your idea of what warefare is inside your head. However real life is a lot different.
If you get the other guy to keep his head down because your unit successfully laid down suppressive fire with the main MG, then you already won. Does not matter if most of the squad/platoon have M16s or Garands.
I am not in any more, I was a 12B and we sometimes get broken up and assign to 11B units. We did not really train with individual weapons as much as you think we did.
We trained tactics, trained conditioning, mostly conditioning... train fire and moving while most of the long range suppressor fire came from the M60's and Mah Deauces. M203, AT4's and LAWs were also emulated. We emulating firing mortars (I was not a mortar man) and moving after the mortar was fired.
Reality is this: you can lay down all the small arms fire you want, but for the most part what takes out an enemy position is a tank, mortar, or even tube launchers such as an AT4. Key is to get close enough to use these weapons.
"Cover me while I move" works just as well with all weapons but better if it is a 556 M4 because a gun that shoots a 556 round is lighter so you can move easier, and the 556 round is smaller so therefore you can carry more rounds to give more suppressive fire. More suppressive fire means more likely the other guy keeps his head down your unit can move easier and set up the next FOREWARD machine gun position. REPEAT until you are on top of the enemy.
The Garand is not going to provide as good as covering fire as say a M16 because of the decrease payload, but it can be done. Most of your covering fire will be coming from Machine Guns such as M1919's, M60, M240, and M2's anyways. If your tactics are sound, and you understand fire and moving, coordinated, disciplined, etc, it can be done. Tell these guys it can't be done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%A9court_Manor_Assault. If they had mortars the job would have been easier.
However, again we are talking about DMR weapons here that shoot a .308 round to put longer range support in the hands of a few men at the squad level. Original question was M16 vs. M14 or if we carried it. But if you want to get off topic, I can, and I can do you the favor of even keeping it off topic. Not my job to get a thread back on topic.
Let me ask you this? If you are in, how much time do you spend PT comparing to firing real ammo? How much more blanks do you use compared to real ammo?
Edit: to make link hot </div></div>
Okay... I'm short on time, so the extent of my reply will be this...
When I need to know how to lay a road, clear obstacles or maybe demo a bridge... I'll give you a call.
You should defer small unit tactics, weapons employment, use of fires, precision fires and infantry tactics to those who actually ARE combat arms (infantry, scout, 18 series)...
In other words, you're arguing a point for which you have marginal experience and knowledge against persons (myself, gunfighter) who are/were SME's compared to a 12 series.
Blanks? LOL I haven't fired a blank in at least 5 or 6 years, maybe more (yes I am still in)
I'll touch on the rest when I have more time.
EDIT: upon further consideration I have fired blanks within the last two years in stalking exercises. But not so much in M4's. Simmunitions are the wave of the future- at least I hope they fully replace blanks for all practical purposes at some point.
