Mental exercise about possibilities

[Unknown]

I was doing some mental exercises the other day comparing the bullets with the highest ballistic coeffieients starting at 6.5mm, then 7 mm, 30 caliber, and 338. I was trying to figure out if any of the newer heavy for caliber bullets would be able to surpass the 338 at longer distances for accuracy. I realize that the heavier bullets with higher velocity will normally have more energy eat a given distance.

If cost of ammo, or components or rifle/scope combination was no object which cartridge (including wildcats) would have the greatest long range performance (beyond 1000 yards and out to the transonic max of the rounds). For this exercise barrel length should be limited to 30". Barrel longevity is not a factor. While I don't want to discount wildcats, the really "out there" wildcats such as a 50 BMG case necked down to .338 would likely top all others, I would like to stay with rounds that are similar to Chey-tac offerings as a top end for wildcats.

This is mostly a mental exercise for me, and so far, either the 30-338 with a 240 grain bullet having a BC of .711, leads the 30 caliber group, and the Lehigh bullet with a claimed BC of .896 leads the 338 group.

Please don't get all wrapped around the axel over the limitations I have imposed..this is just a mental exercise. I have already come to my conclusions, but I realize there are some really great minds on this site that probably have some insights I haven't considered. If you aren't interested in adding intelligent input to the thread, snarky, or "edgy" remarks just make more nonsense for those who are interested to sort through, and only support the negative perception that many people already have of this website. So I would hope people could stay on topic, and not further support the negative perception many people have of participants on this web site.

FWIW, so far, the 338 cartridges (either Lapua, Norma, or similar rounds) with heavy for caliber bullets seem to be in the lead. But it is possible that I have overlooked a 30 caliber cartridge and that someone makes a 275 grain bullet they can match up with a case that will produce 3200 fps with that bullet (or even greater velocity).

I know I'm not up on all the very latest in either cartridges, bullets etc, but I do try. there are so many new components that it is hard to keep track of some new component that just came out 6 months ago.

Thanks to those who participate.

 

[Supersubes]

I could be misunderstanding you, but the bullets you mention are not even in the realm of the current state of the art. Look up a Hornady a tip bullets and the cutting edge and Warner flatline solids.

 

[Unknown]

I'm only considering bullets that are currently commercially available. If I found some obscure bullets that were a custom production item for a brief time, they they wouldn't be worth considering. Same thing applies to any bullets not in current commercial production. Essentially, heavy for caliber bullets seem to be closest to fitting into what I'm considering. Things like a 196 grain 7mm bullet, a 6.5mm bullet over 150 grains with a high BC, the Sierra 240 grain match king BTHP and so on.

If there are some specially manufactured bullets only available to the military, then they wouldn't fit into what I'm considering.

 

[Supersubes]

What I suggested above is normally available stuff. See below for some of the numbers. The sierra 240 you mentioned with a .711 G1 bc was never very popular and has a mediocre Bc. Berger’s 220 and 230 gr hybrids both exceed it. The 30 cal 198gr Warner bullet has a G1 of .838, and the .338 285gr has a G1 of .968. PVA’s 30 cal 241 gr Seneca is advertized as having a 1.15 G1. These are bullets you can point and click and buy right now.

 

[Unknown]

I find it interesting that so many bullet manufacturers seem to "get away with" listing a higher BC for bullets than other people seem to get with the same bullets. That is part of my interest. Most people on this site know that a difference in a BC between a manufacturers listed .770 and what end users find is closer to .650 can make a very significant difference down range.

My posting is mostly a mental exercise in any event as I rarely shoot over 900 yards any more.

An example of what I'm thinking about are cartridges like the 30-378, the 375 Chey Tac and similar rounds.
I was just at the Chey Tac web site and they say they will soon be offering 375 ammo with a 350 grain bullet at 2970 FPS with a BC of .988. That would sure be interesting if I was filthy rich...

 

[Supersubes]

I find it interesting that so many bullet manufacturers seem to "get away with" listing a higher BC for bullets than other people seem to get with the same bullets. That is part of my interest. Most people on this site know that a difference in a BC between a manufacturers listed .770 and what end users find is closer to .650 can make a very significant difference down range.

My posting is mostly a mental exercise in any event as I rarely shoot over 900 yards any more.

An example of what I'm thinking about are cartridges like the 30-378, the 375 Chey Tac and similar rounds.
I was just at the Chey Tac web site and they say they will soon be offering 375 ammo with a 350 grain bullet at 2970 FPS with a BC of .988. That would sure be interesting if I was filthy rich...

I dont think thats nearly as common as it once was. The warner numbers were dopler verified, as are hornady bullets. Users here have found them to track well with the advertised BC.

 

[ColdBore007]

.375 EnABLR and .338 EnABLR are the up and coming ELR rounds, with 379gr and 300gr pills, respectively.

Velocity migration becomes an issue, with most of these overbore cartridges, as they become fouled after only a few rounds.

The EnABLR gets around that and extends ELR capabilities, where even seemingly trivial velocity variations at minor distance, become catastrophic misses at major distance- ELR.

 

[Unknown]

I think the popularity of units such as Lab Radar has forced manufacturers into being more honest about the BC of bullets.

As ColdBore007 noted, trivial velocity variations make a huge difference at ELR. This has resulted in many PRC type shooters having to use bench rest techniques for their reloading... things like sorting brass and bullets by weight, sorting bullets by the length of their bearing surface are just the beginning of going down the bench rest loading rabbit hole.

Thanks for the responses. It seems that my initial suspicions were correct..that ELR shooting will require either the patience of a saint in reloading, or a rich man to pay someone else to have that patience and do that kind of ammo production...and obviously the rifle and optic aren't cheap either.

I think I'm going to concentrate on mid range for now..(out to around 900-1100 yards) and leave the ELR to those people with more money and/or patience than I have. If I can read the wind well enough to get regular hits on a 1 MOA target at 900-1100 yards, I"m pretty happy with that.

Even though I have learned a great deal, I feel as if I have only scratched the surface of what there is to learn.

The book that was to be a training manual called something like 'The complete 50 Caliber Sniper's Course' gave me a really good idea in what is involved in doing the computing/math for ELR shooting.

 

[DocRDS]

Maybe a slight threadjack, but on the subject Il Duce often talks about lighter faster bullets. Anyone know some rules of thumb for approximating their ballistics without a solver (yeah a little lazy, but its good to do math in your head). For instance if you lose x amount of bc but gain y amount of velocity at 1000 yards your drop change will be z

 

[Rocketmandb]

If I can read the wind well enough to get regular hits on a 1 MOA target at 900-1100 yards, I"m pretty happy with that.

Note that most people start there, then the bug bites.

This has resulted in many PRC type shooters having to use bench rest techniques for their reloading... things like sorting brass and bullets by weight, sorting bullets by the length of their bearing surface are just the beginning of going down the bench rest loading rabbit hole.

Honestly, weight sorting bullets and brass goes further than most people outside of benchrest shooters need to do. You simply hit a point of diminishing returns.

I get just over a 6 SD with my 300 PRC and mid 4s with my 6 BRA by going though a consistent, repeatable loading process. Could I drop each of those by 1 or 2 fps by weight sorting, etc? Sure, but 1-2 fps of SD doesn't really impact much - it's just not worth the time, effort, and expense. Now, when I get my 37XC going and I go for hits on a 1 MOA target at 3k yards, my thinking may change, but where I'm shooting now, I'm good.

Even though I have learned a great deal, I feel as if I have only scratched the surface of what there is to learn.

I'm trying things and learning all the time. Frankly, it's part of what makes ELR so enjoyable.

It seems that my initial suspicions were correct..that ELR shooting will require either the patience of a saint in reloading

There are some basics you need to learn in reloading that will get you 90% of where you need to be. The remaining 10% take what you're talking about, but, again, aren't necessary for most shooters.

 

[Eostech]

The problem I see with your question is the fact that there are no real limitations.
To quote Litz
"For similarly shaped bullets that are proportional in weight for their caliber, BC increases with caliber by a 1:1 ratio."
As speed is also important the only answer to your mental exercise is that bigger and faster are always better from a ballistic perspective alone.

Imagine something like PVA’s 30 cal 241 gr Seneca is advertized as having a 1.15 G1 to quote @Supersubes, doing 3200FPS.
Impressive performance right?
Scale that bullet up to .408 and increase the speed to 3400FPS.
Or say fuck it and build a non man portable system scaled up to .50 cal and 4000fps.

So as the largest caliber you list is .338 with no limitation on speed, bullet weight or cartridge it 's the winner of your mental exercise, in an open ended contest smaller calibers are at a disadvantage.

If you wanted something like the best performance out of a magazine fed LA with a magnum boltface then the question is more nuanced.

 

[Unknown]

I really appreciate all the input. It is a fun mental exercise for me. As I'm thinking "man portable" I think something like the Chey Tac 375 or 408 is about the upper limit of my consideration. I realize that 50 caliber might even be better, but from what I have found so far, the Chey-tac seems to have better super long range performance.

If there was a similar quality 50 caliber bullet to those Chey Tac uses, that would change things, but then I would be getting into a serious rich man pice of kit. Even the Chey Tac ammo gets into serious money.

Oh, to be rich enough to not have to worry about what things cost...but I'm just a mere mortal and I do have to consider cost. Especially when 99% of my shooting is 900 yards or less.