Being the epitome of a novice in the reloading hobby, I didn't have much of a rebuttal for a man I had a conversation with. He CLAIMS, he has had great success mixing slow burning powder with fast burning powder. "What I did, was follow the reloading recipe in my books, but mixed 1/4 of the total grains with fast burning powder and the other 3/4 with slow burning powder." < A direct quotation from him. Is there any person on here that has heard of this as well, for I am not going to take this guys word for it? LoL I just can't think of any real advantage of doing this, which is why I believe he may be BSing me.
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mixing powders ?!?!
- Thread starter prodigalson
- Start date
I would not mix powders.You do not know what issues you may run into with accuracy and pressure.There are great powder being made currently with a wealth of loading data.
Regards,Mike
Regards,Mike
This guy may have been BSing you, probably was in fact. Mixing powders can be dangerous or deadly. Their are also those who derive benefits from mixing powders. I have a friend who does duplex and triplex loads. Use the words duplex and triples in google if you wand to read up on them. By putting a faster powder on top of a slower powder my friend gets .300WM velocities from his .30-06. It truly is a impressive stunt. Kind of like having a 700 horsepower Chevette and blowing off Corvettes.
Still before this is not the kind of thing you should attempt at home. My friend who does this kind of thing is a prototype Machinist and he is one of the most methodical people I have ever met. He keeps very good records of his load development process and the analysis he subjects EVERY FIRED ROUND too would impress NASA. He measures every the profile of his fired brass, and he built a special instrument to measure the flatness of his fired primers. He backs off on his loads with Every new can of powder and redevelops the load. Further, if you use the search function on the hide you will find a shooter who blew up his brand new .338 Lapua and destroyed a Nightforce scope shooting a duplex load he got from a friend. This outcome is perhaps much more likely than the performance enhancements my friend gets.
If someone told me what this guy told you, I would make is a point not to shoot near him, as it may be only a matter of time until he blows something up.
Even my friend who does this admits that there is much less to be gained today than 20 years ago. Many powders are greatly improved over what was available 20 years ago, so that in the general case if you go through all the books and work up a optimum load for your purpose there will be very little to be gained.
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!
Beepy is right! I just added the info from my friend to save you from getting sucked into some kind of bet that is rigged against you.
I have heard of people doing this, but I have no personal knowledge of it. However, I think its a really bad idea to be promoting the mixing of powders to some guy you just met and are having a conversation with for the first time. At least your post makes me think this was some guy you just met.
I have numerous powders in my cabinet and I'm very meticulous about making sure I clean up every last granule before I switch to another powder. I don't even want any powder left on my loading block, funnel, powder scoops....I'm probably a bit paranoid, but I'd rather not have any amount powders mixed in my loads. I clean up every last bit of any powder that gets spilled, just to be sure nothing weird happens. Perhaps there are some who are safely mixing powders, but I have no desire to experiment with it when I can get excellent results from the powders I'm already using.
I have numerous powders in my cabinet and I'm very meticulous about making sure I clean up every last granule before I switch to another powder. I don't even want any powder left on my loading block, funnel, powder scoops....I'm probably a bit paranoid, but I'd rather not have any amount powders mixed in my loads. I clean up every last bit of any powder that gets spilled, just to be sure nothing weird happens. Perhaps there are some who are safely mixing powders, but I have no desire to experiment with it when I can get excellent results from the powders I'm already using.
Mixing powders can be done with great success if you have a pressure gun, proper, scales, correct mixing equipment, and the powders in question lend themselves to being mixed. Extruded and ball would be out of the question, in short, unless you are a well equipped powder mfg, or in some cases powder importer bringing in tons of powder, and have all the right gear, and a way to test and retest the final product, do not try it. Duplex loads were popular many years ago, back in the day the burn rate chart had 25 or so powders, there is far to much danger for the potential gain. I remember when the 454C shooters were dipping into the duplex and triplex loads, it was stupid then, but really stupid now. The firing of more than one burn rate isn't the only problem, but basic type, a double based powder, due to its nitro content, can and does act as an explosive rather than a flammable solid under the right circumstances, duplex and triplex loads create those type circumstances. You friend may in fact have a book that talks about mixing powder in order to achieve a new burn rate, but the chances are that book went out of print (except as a historical ref) 75 years ago. The answer given by diverdon is exactly correct-good advice.
300WM velocities from a 30-06. That would be brilliant if velocity really meant a whole hell of a lot between the two. I attain 2880fps from 190SMKs with my 06' quite safely. It will reach a mile effectively and with an impressive modicum of accuracy. Yes it has a 27" barrel and is what I consider my heavy rifle. Whether you are an actual NASA engineer or not is is far safer and smarter to just build a 300WM if that is what you need. Mixing powders by anyone beyond white coats in a ballistic lab, is a solution without a problem to solve. Even if you have all kinds of testing equipment and an analytical mind to rival Einstein, you run the risk of destroying good equipment. A truly analytical mind would weigh the risk vs reward columns and quickly deduce that the view is not worth the climb. Only the daredevil presses on after truly analyzing this subject with unfettered objectivity.
Yes powder companies "blend" powders. They know what they are doing and have huge R&D budgets. They have for the most part already provided us with the blends that perform to the utmost of a cartridge's ability, if we use the optimum powder. Reinventing the wheel at great risk and possible great personal cost, by an individual is simple foolishness. Risking a $4k rifle to gain a couple hundred FPS is just plain stupid. Oh I know that is a matter of fact statement that can get me flamed, I don't care. I can use my analytical acumen to lay out a pile of reasons why it doesn't make any sense. Here is a simple one:
You have a $1K rifle. You risk life and limb and the $1K to try and make it perform like a much larger cartridge. If you succeed you didn't gain much and are now insuring that your original investment will wear out about 25+% faster, thus costing more money over the long haul. You risked much to cost yourself more money in the long run. If you fail and destroy the rifle, you have to shell out another $1K, now pulling $2K deep in your stack. At this point you can play it safe and buy the bigger cartridge, but it actually cost you $2K because your original rifle is gone. If you had just spent the $2K to begin with you would have 2 rifles, no risk. Any arguement against that being a better investment is simply untenable. Yadda, yadda, yadda......
Yes powder companies "blend" powders. They know what they are doing and have huge R&D budgets. They have for the most part already provided us with the blends that perform to the utmost of a cartridge's ability, if we use the optimum powder. Reinventing the wheel at great risk and possible great personal cost, by an individual is simple foolishness. Risking a $4k rifle to gain a couple hundred FPS is just plain stupid. Oh I know that is a matter of fact statement that can get me flamed, I don't care. I can use my analytical acumen to lay out a pile of reasons why it doesn't make any sense. Here is a simple one:
You have a $1K rifle. You risk life and limb and the $1K to try and make it perform like a much larger cartridge. If you succeed you didn't gain much and are now insuring that your original investment will wear out about 25+% faster, thus costing more money over the long haul. You risked much to cost yourself more money in the long run. If you fail and destroy the rifle, you have to shell out another $1K, now pulling $2K deep in your stack. At this point you can play it safe and buy the bigger cartridge, but it actually cost you $2K because your original rifle is gone. If you had just spent the $2K to begin with you would have 2 rifles, no risk. Any arguement against that being a better investment is simply untenable. Yadda, yadda, yadda......
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
Absolutely mix your powders, mix them all.
The more powder mixers we have out there the more powder will come available as mixers blow their faces off and stop reloading.
Now, that being said I actually do mix powders but only to even out any difference between different lots of the same type. Mixing different types, when there are so many variations available, is just stupid.
Absolutely mix your powders, mix them all.
The more powder mixers we have out there the more powder will come available as mixers blow their faces off and stop reloading.
Now, that being said I actually do mix powders but only to even out any difference between different lots of the same type. Mixing different types, when there are so many variations available, is just stupid.
I know G david Tubb mixes H1000 & H4350 when he loads for his 6xc, other than that Ill stick with one powder, for now.
I've no problem with the concept of the thoughtful mixing of powder.
50gr IMR4064 + 50gr H1000 under a 300gr smk in a 338LM is not thoughtful.
There is not an optimum burn speed powder available off the shelf for every cartridge.
50gr IMR4064 + 50gr H1000 under a 300gr smk in a 338LM is not thoughtful.
There is not an optimum burn speed powder available off the shelf for every cartridge.
He was at the most an acquaintance, and in no way was I trusting his word. Although it is an interesting thought. Yet, not something a rookie like me will Dick with.
Ditto to this. I've only heard of one guy doing this in varmint gun, put a fast burn under a slow burn for a really good ignition, split the receiver in two pieces at the threads, barrel fell out of the stock. Surprisingly the guy didn't get hurt, maybe a little gun shy now!
Prodigalson,
Not much to add here that hasn't already been said, but yes, the guy is an idiot. I've talked to lots of folks who've mixed powders, usually followed by a Homer Simpson "D'OAH!" as soon as they realize what they just did. Usually emptying out a powder measure back into the wrong jug before returning it to their powder magazine. Their next question is usually to me to ask, "do I really have to throw this powder away now?" The answer is "yes." Only a complete fool would do this without a full ballistic, lab including pressure equipment and a Universal receiver.
Not much to add here that hasn't already been said, but yes, the guy is an idiot. I've talked to lots of folks who've mixed powders, usually followed by a Homer Simpson "D'OAH!" as soon as they realize what they just did. Usually emptying out a powder measure back into the wrong jug before returning it to their powder magazine. Their next question is usually to me to ask, "do I really have to throw this powder away now?" The answer is "yes." Only a complete fool would do this without a full ballistic, lab including pressure equipment and a Universal receiver.
The powder companies have gone through great lengths to make reloading as safe and easy for the average hobbyist or novice. If you have a chance to thumb through an "Internal Ballistics" book you will be bombarded by pages of vector calculus for simple occurrences i/e powder placement in the case. Even if one were to find a "safe" load of mixed powder, it would be highly improbable to mix the two powders in the same way twice. Hell, the same powder cut short will burn at a somewhat different rate and change the peak pressure curve.
There is no other way to say mixing powders is stupid. Your friend is a fool.
There is no other way to say mixing powders is stupid. Your friend is a fool.
Roggrom,
The technical term for this is "stratification," and your comments are spot on. Stratification is one of the many variables that invite problems into such things.
The technical term for this is "stratification," and your comments are spot on. Stratification is one of the many variables that invite problems into such things.
I think it should be pointed out there are different "degrees" of mixing powder:
You could mix two very similar powders, just one step in burn speed apart, by the same manufacturer to achieve a burn speed in between. Say H4350 and H4831.
You could mix two very different powders with vastly differing burn speed, to achieve something in between. Say US869 and Titegroup.
You could drop a couple grains of a fast pistol powder on top of the primer, followed up by a big compressed load of slow magnum powder, to achieve fast and consistent ignition in the huge magnums like 460WB or 500 Asquare.
You could stratify different powders, attempting a "staged" burn to prolong the amount of time the chamber pressure is at max.
Each of these has different degrees of risk.
You could mix two very similar powders, just one step in burn speed apart, by the same manufacturer to achieve a burn speed in between. Say H4350 and H4831.
You could mix two very different powders with vastly differing burn speed, to achieve something in between. Say US869 and Titegroup.
You could drop a couple grains of a fast pistol powder on top of the primer, followed up by a big compressed load of slow magnum powder, to achieve fast and consistent ignition in the huge magnums like 460WB or 500 Asquare.
You could stratify different powders, attempting a "staged" burn to prolong the amount of time the chamber pressure is at max.
Each of these has different degrees of risk.
The only thing I do is mix my jugs of Varget togeather so that whatever the load comes out to be its the same for all my loads until the powder is gone. I do the same with my jugs of 4350, mix them to make one lot. I just don't have the balls to mix different burn rates of powder.
Reading through this thread in its entirety, I believe it's been pretty well said that mixing propellants is probably not a good idea. I think of it in terms of value:
I have a significant investment in my equipment (although less than some, probably more than others)
I have a significant investment in my life (how do you put a value on that?)
Mixing propellants puts both those investments at risk. Can mixing powders be of such great return as to offset the risk involved? My answer, considering my position, is no.
I have a significant investment in my equipment (although less than some, probably more than others)
I have a significant investment in my life (how do you put a value on that?)
Mixing propellants puts both those investments at risk. Can mixing powders be of such great return as to offset the risk involved? My answer, considering my position, is no.
Raptor99,
Not a question of not having the balls to do so, but of having the brains NOT to do so. Good on ya'!
I've did that before. Had to throw away 3/4 of a pound of powder. I threw two charges in it before I realized it was the wrong container. Lesson learned there.
I actually do this, all the nay sayers are just internet commandos that read on silly websights like hogdon.com or sierra shmerra.com. I use a 1:3 ratio mix of reloader 15 and tannerite,this yields 4200 fps out of my 16 inch .308
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