Rifle Scopes MOA or MRAD for F-Class?

[Jim C]

So now that I've decided on a Votex scope, I'm trying to decide on whether to go MOA or MRAD. I keep hearing it doesn't matter, yet I also keep seeing references to F-Class shooters using predominantly MOA. Not sure why it'd matter. I'm probably going to be doing mostly target shooting, and was going to get MRAD. But I will probably want to try F-Class down the road. That being a possibility, should I go MOA?

Thanks,
-jim

 

[Slo cat]

If you are shooting paper targets at known distances, then it doesn't matter, MOA or Mil. There is a long-standing momentum of shooting MOA in hunting and paper target competition, that's all.

 

[FCS]

If more familiar / comfortable with calling wind in Mils, stick to Mils.
F-class Targets are in MOA, 1/2 MOA X-ring, 1 MOA 10-ring, 2 MOA 9-ring, 3 MOA -8 ring....

Normally I use sighters to get scope dialed in for predominant conditions, once shooting for record I just hold off and don’t mess with dialing.

 

[Spblademaker]

 

[Tony1320]

Most F-Class shooters are using moa scopes with 1/8th clicks.

The reason you want 1/8th moa adjustments is to center your group 1/4 moa or .1 mil is too large of an adjustment. They do make .05 mil scopes but majority of F-Class scopes are 1/8th moa.

If your looking at Vortex look at the Golden Eagle a great value if you want to spend more money Nightforce Competition 15-55 are excellent. If you have no budget in mind March 10-60 scopes are also excellent

 

[Jim C]

Thanks guys! -jim

View attachment 7117289

I'm familiar with this meme from other threads, and apologize if I've offended you by posting another MOA/MRAD question. But I've looked at other threads and couldn't find clarification as to which I might need at F-Class competitions. Thought it was ok to ask questions.

 

[Jim C]

Most F-Class shooters are using moa scopes with 1/8th clicks.

The reason you want 1/8th moa adjustments is to center your group 1/4 moa or .1 mil is too large of an adjustment. They do make .05 mil scopes but majority of F-Class scopes are 1/8th moa.

If your looking at Vortex look at the Golden Eagle a great value if you want to spend more money Nightforce Competition 15-55 are excellent. If you have no budget in mind March 10-60 scopes are also excellent

Thanks for the clarification. I did look at the Golden Eagle but wanted a FFP scope. And that Nightforce is beyond my budget. -jim

 

[abn31c]

 

[Basher]

Thanks guys! -jim


I'm familiar with this meme from other threads, and apologize if I've offended you by posting another MOA/MRAD question. But I've looked at other threads and couldn't find clarification as to which I might need at F-Class competitions. Thought it was ok to ask questions.

It’s not that anyone has “taken offense,” it’s that this question comes up from new guys several times a week. The search function will prove immensely helpful to you going forward.

Maybe a “master thread” should be created on this subject that says what Frank said in a recent podcast episode. Link to it in the registration form for new members in such a way that you must click the link to the post, scroll down through it, and click accept that you’ve read it. Then, if anyone asks this, it’s an automatic “vacation” for 30 days, as indicated on the registration page that they acknowledged. If they ask again, then it’s a 90-day vacation. Three strikes and you’re out. Just a thought...

 

[Jim C]

View attachment 7117301

Tried that. Couldn't find an answer. You could have easily just skipped right on by instead of being a jerk.

 

[Jim C]

It’s not that anyone has “taken offense,” it’s that this question comes up from new guys several times a week. The search function will prove immensely helpful to you going forward.

Maybe a “master thread” should be created on this subject that says what Frank said in a recent podcast episode. Link to it in the registration form for new members in such a way that you must click the link to the post, scroll down through it, and click accept that you’ve read it. Then, if anyone asks this, it’s an automatic “vacation” for 30 days, as indicated on the registration page that they acknowledged. If they ask again, then it’s a 90-day vacation. Three strikes and you’re out. Just a thought...

I get that. But I did try searching (as I mentioned above) and was not able to find an answer. That being the case I thought it would be acceptable to ask the question. Are there really any questions that have never been asked? I'll think harder before asking questions in the future. Thx.

 

[FCS]

What is budget for glass?

 

[Spblademaker]

So your best bet is to google search: Snipershide mil moa mrad

 

[Jim C]

So your best bet is to google search: Snipershide mil moa mrad

Thanks. I will definitely do that going forward. I sure won't be posting any more ...

 

[Steel head]

 

[Basher]

I get that. But I did try searching (as I mentioned above) and was not able to find an answer. That being the case I thought it would be acceptable to ask the question. Are there really any questions that have never been asked? I'll think harder before asking questions in the future. Thx.

I’m quite positive that there are a BOATLOAD of questions that haven’t been asked before. But “mil vs moa” ain’t one of them! It’s literally the most asked question on the Hide, hence why we’re all so tired of seeing it pop up. It’s not you, it’s just about every noob who joins, so don’t take it personally.

Let me help you out:

LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.

lmgtfy.com

 

[Jim C]

What is budget for glass?

Started out trying to find something for around $1000. But I raised the budget to $2000 thinking that it'd be preferable to get something a little higher quality.

 

[Tony1320]

Thanks for the clarification. I did look at the Golden Eagle but wanted a FFP scope. And that Nightforce is beyond my budget. -jim

If this scope will be mainly for class you don't want a ffp scope. The crosshair will be large and cover a lot of the target so that makes it hard to have a precise aiming point. You are shooting for X's (1/2 moa) not large steel plates. If the Nightforce is out of your budget I think the two best options would be the Golden Eagle or Delta Stryker 5-50

 

[Steel head]

Started out trying to find something for around $1000. But I raised the budget to $2000 thinking that it'd be preferable to get something a little higher quality.

Good choice.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I get that. But I did try searching (as I mentioned above) and was not able to find an answer. That being the case I thought it would be acceptable to ask the question. Are there really any questions that have never been asked? I'll think harder before asking questions in the future. Thx.

The site search function is lacking. Don't worry about any question you ask, as when the dog piles start it's mostly in fun,..but if they get out of hand band cat has a way to level the playing field. Helps to have thick skin at times an even the HMFIC gets ribbed about " things over his head" every so often. Welcome, take a chill pill, set back an enjoy the show,...

 

[abn31c]

Above all else buy the best scope you can afford the 1st time. Other than that its how fine of adjustments do you want.....the end.

 

[Threadcutter308]

The site search function is lacking. Don't worry about any question you ask, as when the dog piles start it's mostly in fun,..but if they get out of hand band cat has a way to level the playing field. Helps to have thick skin at times an even the HMFIC gets ribbed about " things over his head" every so often. Welcome, take a chill pill, set back an enjoy the show,...

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laughing,... How in the world did you dub Franks voice into that?

 

[Jim C]

I’m quite positive that there are a BOATLOAD of questions that haven’t been asked before. But “mil vs moa” ain’t one of them! It’s literally the most asked question on the Hide, hence why we’re all so tired of seeing it pop up. It’s not you, it’s just about every noob who joins, so don’t take it personally.

Let me help you out:

LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You

For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.

lmgtfy.com

Thanks. Trust me, though, I've done that. I think what you're missing is that I wasn't asking about the difference between MOA and MRAD. I've done that and I understand the difference. What I haven't been able to find is what would be the appropriate choice for F-Class competitions. I haven't been able to find that answer. And yes, I have googled F-Class. So I thought it would be ok to ask for that clarification here. Apparently i was incorrect. What I don't get is that if you all think this is just another repeat why not just scroll past. Not sure why some feel obligated to try and make me feel bad.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Not sure why some feel obligated to try and make me feel bad.

Just like anywhere else in life if some smell weakness they try to push it to the limit, for many reasons. Hence why it's called dog piling,...

 

[QuickNDirty]

Thanks. Trust me, though, I've done that. I think what you're missing is that I wasn't asking about the difference between MOA and MRAD. I've done that and I understand the difference. What I haven't been able to find is what would be the appropriate choice for F-Class competitions. I haven't been able to find that answer. And yes, I have googled F-Class. So I thought it would be ok to ask for that clarification here. Apparently i was incorrect. What I don't get is that if you all think this is just another repeat why not just scroll past. Not sure why some feel obligated to try and make me feel bad.

I mean, if you understand angular units of measurement, you should also understand that the question of "which angular unit of measurement employed in a scope reticle is the best for F-Class" would otherwise be seen as rhetorical, not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Spblademaker]

Episode 179 of The Everyday Sniper probably covers what you want to hear.

 

[Basher]

Thanks. Trust me, though, I've done that. I think what you're missing is that I wasn't asking about the difference between MOA and MRAD. I've done that and I understand the difference. What I haven't been able to find is what would be the appropriate choice for F-Class competitions. I haven't been able to find that answer. And yes, I have googled F-Class. So I thought it would be ok to ask for that clarification here. Apparently i was incorrect. What I don't get is that if you all think this is just another repeat why not just scroll past. Not sure why some feel obligated to try and make me feel bad.

See above, sometimes it’s just because we’re a bunch of jerks here, haha. I see your point w/ it not being a simple “which is better” post. My apologies if you feel I’ve been heavy-handed, but what has been said about having “thick skin” is true as well, haha. We all take digs at each other from time to time, stick around long enough and you’ll get your chance at one of us. ?

 

[Jim C]

I mean, if you understand angular units of measurement, you should also understand that the question of "which angular unit of measurement employed in a scope reticle is the best for F-Class" would otherwise be seen as rhetorical, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Well, I don't quite follow your point, but that's ok. Maybe the problem is I don't really know much about F-Class. But I won't be asking about that ... lol

 

[Jim C]

See above, sometimes it’s just because we’re a bunch of jerks here, haha. I see your point w/ it not being a simple “which is better” post. My apologies if you feel I’ve been heavy-handed, but what has been said about having “thick skin” is true as well, haha. We all take digs at each other from time to time, stick around long enough and you’ll get your chance at one of us. ?

Thanks. I try not to be too sensitive, but often I fail miserably ...

 

[QuickNDirty]

Well, I don't quite follow your point, but that's ok. Maybe the problem is I don't really know much about F-Class. But I won't be asking about that ... lol

Well, obviously you just need to buy both, and sell the one you don't shoot for shit.

 

[Basher]

Thanks. I try not to be too sensitive, but often I fail miserably ...

With enough time here, you’ll get better at it. ?

 

[Spblademaker]

See above, sometimes it’s just because we’re a bunch of jerks here, haha. I see your point w/ it not being a simple “which is better” post. My apologies if you feel I’ve been heavy-handed, but what has been said about having “thick skin” is true as well, haha. We all take digs at each other from time to time, stick around long enough and you’ll get your chance at one of us. ?

Well he (gender assumed) did call @abn31c a jerk. Which is a good start. ?

 

[Eoddave27]

For F class the guys who are really serious about it shoot MOA scopes. The targets are in MOA and everyone talks MOA. Here is the thing. When I first started competing long range I showed up to an F class match with not much more than a bone stock 308, a Harris bipod and an old sock full of rice as my rear bag. I had a $700 mil based FFP Scope on my rifle. It probably goes without saying but I was a little out of place. There were guys there with front rests that cost three times what my whole set up cost. They had their little groups and didn’t really do much to help new guys which was a very difference experience from what I was used to with other shooting sports. I went ahead and shot the match in tactical class and did pretty well. I left that match and never did another one. It just wasn’t fun for me. After that I tried a PRS match and the whole experience was a 180. Great people all willing to help and a whole lot of fun. Now I’m by no means saying that all F class matches are like that. That was simply the experience I had here. What I am saying is before you decide to make a big investment in a scope you may want to just take what you have and see if you actually enjoy it. If you love it then jump in with both feet. On the other hand if you like it as much as I did and have no interest in shooting another match then you don’t have a $2k MOA scope that you now want to use to shoot in a sport dominated by Mil based Optics like PRS.

 

[Jim C]

For F class the guys who are really serious about it shoot MOA scopes. The targets are in MOA and everyone talks MOA. Here is the thing. When I first started competing long range I showed up to an F class match with not much more than a bone stock 308, a Harris bipod and an old sock full of rice as my rear bag. I had a $700 mil based FFP Scope on my rifle. It probably goes without saying but I was a little out of place. There were guys there with front rests that cost three times what my whole set up cost. They had their little groups and didn’t really do much to help new guys which was a very difference experience from what I was used to with other shooting sports. I went ahead and shot the match in tactical class and did pretty well. I left that match and never did another one. It just wasn’t fun for me. After that I tried a PRS match and the whole experience was a 180. Great people all willing to help and a whole lot of fun. Now I’m by no means saying that all F class matches are like that. That was simply the experience I had here. What I am saying is before you decide to make a big investment in a scope you may want to just take what you have and see if you actually enjoy it. If you love it then jump in with both feet. On the other hand if like it as much as I did and have no interest in shooting another match then you don’t have a $2k MOA scope that you now want to shoot in a sport dominated by Mil based Optics.

Thanks. That makes sense if I already had equipment. I'm starting from scratch and have pretty much zero experience shooting long range. I shoot a 10/22 at 100 yards, but would like to try shooting long distance - I have access to up to 300 yards at my neighborhood range, and past 1000 yards at a range that's a short drive away. I'm happy shooting targets, but anticipate that once I get decent, that it'd be fun to shoot competitively. Problem is I don't know much about long distance competitions. F-Class seems to be what I hear most about, and I thought I should buy equipment that would work for target shooting, but also be a appropriate for competition down the road. Hence my question. I appreciate your comments. -jim

 

[abn31c]

Well he (gender assumed) did call @abn31c a jerk. Which is a good start. ?

Nicest thing anybody said to me all day!2?

 

[Geno C.]

If you have 2k to spend on an Fclass scope. A used nightforce comp is what you need. Ffp is an unneeded expense. They can be found from 1600-2000 on the used market pretty easily. There’s actually one in the px right now.

 

[TheGerman]

Yes

 

[Dthomas3523]

There’s an F class sub forum as well.

 

[TheGerman]

Yes

 

[smoothy8500]

I'm starting from scratch and have pretty much zero experience shooting long range.

I normally shoot F-class, but just recently started dabbling in PRS. I don't think FFP or Mils will hold you back when you decide to try out F-class either Midrange (300-600yd) or Longrange (800, 900, 1K). Initially, you will have a learning curve when you ask about wind calls and convert MOA/inch-per-hundred to your Mils but you will get the hang of it.

 

[Jim C]

There’s an F class sub forum as well.

I didn't realize that. Guess I didn't know there were sub forums. Thanks. -jim

 

[Jim C]

I normally shoot F-class, but just recently started dabbling in PRS. I don't think FFP or Mils will hold you back when you decide to try out F-class either Midrange (300-600yd) or Longrange (800, 900, 1K). Initially, you will have a learning curve when you ask about wind calls and convert MOA/inch-per-hundred to your Mils but you will get the hang of it.

Thanks. I'm not familiar at all with PRS. I'll have to check that out. Which do you like better?

 

[1J04]

Ja @TheGerman

 

[Racer88]

For F class the guys who are really serious about it shoot MOA scopes. The targets are in MOA and everyone talks MOA. Here is the thing. When I first started competing long range I showed up to an F class match with not much more than a bone stock 308, a Harris bipod and an old sock full of rice as my rear bag. I had a $700 mil based FFP Scope on my rifle. It probably goes without saying but I was a little out of place. There were guys there with front rests that cost three times what my whole set up cost. They had their little groups and didn’t really do much to help new guys which was a very difference experience from what I was used to with other shooting sports. I went ahead and shot the match in tactical class and did pretty well. I left that match and never did another one. It just wasn’t fun for me. After that I tried a PRS match and the whole experience was a 180. Great people all willing to help and a whole lot of fun. Now I’m by no means saying that all F class matches are like that. That was simply the experience I had here. What I am saying is before you decide to make a big investment in a scope you may want to just take what you have and see if you actually enjoy it. If you love it then jump in with both feet. On the other hand if like it as much as I did and have no interest in shooting another match then you don’t have a $2k MOA scope that you now want to shoot in a sport dominated by Mil based Optics.

Ha! Pretty much my experience. My very first F-class match - I had my Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 CM. Vortex HST. Harris bipod. Rear squeeze bag. Factory loads. 600 yards.

I went with a friend (who shoots Service Rifle class), who would have helped me, but I got squadded with an F-class dude. I pretty much had no idea what I was doing, and my "squad-mate" could not be bothered. I asked him a question, and he said, "It's your rifle." What a dick. He kept to himself, measuring his cartridges with a micrometer. He had no interest in helping a newbie. I was on my own.

There were 8 shooters in the F-class category. I came in 6th! Beat two of them! HA! I was "unclassified," since it was my first time. The 7th and 8th place guys were classified as "Master" and "Expert." Suck it!

My buddy (the service rifle dude) says, "You know what the hardest thing about being an F-class shooter is?"

No. What?

"Telling your parents you're gay."

But, back to the OP... I don't think he's asking, "Which is better: MOA or MIL?"

I think he's asking what the "standard" is for F-class. And, the answer is: MOA. It's what they use and "speak." It's not that it's "better" than MIL. It's simply the language they speak. If you're going to run with that pack, I'd speak what they speak.

 

[Racer88]

Ja @TheGerman

USS MIDWAY (CV-41) 87-90 TRUSTY SHELLBACK SINCE 1981

Sorry for off-topic. I tried to PM you, but the system was returning an error (wouldn't let me do it).


I saw in your signature:

USS MIDWAY (CV-41) 87-90 TRUSTY SHELLBACK SINCE 1981

I was on the Independence (CV-62) 1989 - 1991. Your ship relieved mine in the Persian Gulf in 1990. Our ships also met up in Pearl Harbor for "crossover" when we moved our homeport to Yokosuka.

<--- also a trusty Shellback!

 

[Eoddave27]

Jim, if you want to dip your foot and see a little bit about what PRS is like then it sounds like you may have everything you need to try some NRL22 matches. All you should need is your 10/22 and a scope. It’s the same concept as PRS only you use a 22lr and typically shoot between 25 and 300 yards. Most of the guys I know who shoot NRL matches started them out as practice for PRS and enjoyed the matches so much they kept coming back. I shoot them year round now and honestly enjoy them more than any of the other matches I shoot. The NRL matches are a great way to see if you even like the competition aspect of shooting. They are low stress and and a great way to meet other people in the shooting community who can help you with the other types of matches you may want to shoot. One thing I will mention about F class which is something I never really considered before I shot. Im not that old but my body was pretty beat up in the military. Laying prone in the sun long enough to fire a controlled accurate 20 shot string really sucked! I’m not that 19 year old 10’ tall and bulletproof private any more and my body let me know that. Getting old sucks and I’m not even old yet!

 

[Jim C]

Jim, if you want to dip your foot and see a little bit about what PRS is like then it sounds like you may have everything you need to try some NRL22 matches. All you should need is your 10/22 and a scope. It’s the same concept as PRS only you uses a 22lr and typically shoot between 25 and 300 yards. Most of the guys I know who shoot NRL matches started them out as practice for PRS and enjoyed the matches so much they kept coming back. I shoot them year round now and honestly enjoy them more than any of the other matches I shoot. The NRL matches are a great way to see if you even like the competition aspect of shooting. They are low stress and and a great way to meet other people in the shooting community who can help you with the other types of matches you may want to shoot. One thing I will mention about F class which is something I never really considered before I shot. Im not that old but my body was pretty beat up in the military. Laying prone in the sun long enough to fire a controlled accurate 20 shot string really sucked! I’m not that 19 year old 10’ tall and bulletproof private any more and my body let me know that. Getting old sucks and I’m not even old yet!

Well, I am old! lol But at least I'm still in pretty decent shape. My neighborhood gun club actually started doing NRL22. I haven't had a chance to really look into what they were doing yet, but I'll make a point of checking it out. Sounds like it might be fun. Thanks!

 

[fdkay]

Started out trying to find something for around $1000. But I raised the budget to $2000 thinking that it'd be preferable to get something a little higher quality.

Sightron scopes are pretty popular with the F class crowd.
Huge bang for the buck, made in Japan goodness on the SIII and SV series.
For F Class, most prefer second focal plane and, as has been stated, 1/8 MOA adjustments.
This is an excellent choice, cost is just over 1000

Riflescopes, Sights, Binoculars & Optic Accessories - SWFA Outdoors

Shop for rifle scopes from top manufacturers like Burris, Bushnell, Leica, Leopold, Meopta, Nikon, Zeiss and more. Click through to find the latest deals.

www.swfa.com

Burris also makes a model specifically for F Class:

Riflescopes, Sights, Binoculars & Optic Accessories - SWFA Outdoors

Shop for rifle scopes from top manufacturers like Burris, Bushnell, Leica, Leopold, Meopta, Nikon, Zeiss and more. Click through to find the latest deals.

www.swfa.com

 

[Jim C]

Sightron scopes are pretty popular with the F class crowd.
Huge bang for the buck, made in Japan goodness on the SIII and SV series.
For F Class, most prefer second focal plane and, as has been stated, 1/8 MOA adjustments.
This is an excellent choice, cost is just over 1000

Riflescopes, Sights, Binoculars & Optic Accessories - SWFA Outdoors

Shop for rifle scopes from top manufacturers like Burris, Bushnell, Leica, Leopold, Meopta, Nikon, Zeiss and more. Click through to find the latest deals.

www.swfa.com

Burris also makes a model specifically for F Class:

Riflescopes, Sights, Binoculars & Optic Accessories - SWFA Outdoors

Shop for rifle scopes from top manufacturers like Burris, Bushnell, Leica, Leopold, Meopta, Nikon, Zeiss and more. Click through to find the latest deals.

www.swfa.com

Thanks. a lot. I'll take a look. I was planning on going FFP. But after seeing some comments here and watching more videos I'm rethinking that. -jim