Most reliable actions

[hypno02]

Lets talk rifle actions.

Say a guy wanted to build a rifle that would perform flawlessly all day every day. Rain, shine, snow, ice, sand, mud, ect. The rifle needs to feed reliably, eject reliably, and the safety needs to never fail. The firing pin on the rifle needs to strike the primer every time the trigger is pulled. Which actions have the best setup for a bolt release to work the most reliably every time?

What I want to know is, what do you fellas feel are the most reliable rifle actions out there, and why? I want to divide the argument into two separate spheres. Factory actions and High dollar factory/custom actions.

So, of the choices involved, which do you feel are the most reliable actions in each category? (I may miss some, feel free to mention them.)

Factory: Howa, M700, M70/FN, Savage 10

Custom/ High dollar: M700 (custom tuned, M16 extractor) Stiller, surgeon, Nesika, Templar, TRG, HSprecision. remind me of the others Im missing (we're gonna leave out AI simply because they're already #1)

I know there's a ton of gray area when it comes to this, so please bear with me.

 

[callen3615]

Re: Most reliable actions

Well i shot my 700 for an hour in pouring down rain yesterday and it didnt fail to feed or eject once. I actually think the added liquid aided in its operation...idk.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: Most reliable actions

Well, the AI would be a factory rifle, the actions are not available as a stand alone. Pierce, Big Horn, Defiance, a few left out but there are so many quality actions out there.

One thing I have found through personal experience, "custom" actions tend to have tighter tolerances that don't always make them function reliably in unfavorable conditions, throw in snow, sand, and mud and you will find that a factory action with looser machining tolerances will often be a better fit in that world, its give and take.

Kirk R

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: Most reliable actions

Surgeon's one-piece bolt, integrated picatinny rail, and integrated recoil lug sold me, and I've been pleased so far. The fluted bolt is supposed to help prevent dirt, sand, ice, or whatever from binding up the action, but is available in several other actions as well.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Most reliable actions

Most reliable you ask?

Mosin Nagant I say!

 

[TEAMSENDIT]

Re: Most reliable actions

well my vote for american action would be mauser or fn-spr/winchester classic. there is something oh so reliable about simple 2 piece trigger, fixed ejector blade, claw extractor, controlled round feed and enough slop to still function with ship in there.

euorpean action i would have to give it to ai take your pic which one basically just a very simple well thought out battlefield ready for anything action. clean, simple, and effective.

I am not sure if it is simply based on the fact that around 75% of actions i see are 700 or 700 clone but that for sure is the action i have seen take a shit the most, particularly the custom clones honestly. Especially 700 aftermarket triggers, holy shit don't get me started on that fucking mess. There is a reason alot of top name smiths stick with tuned factory rem triggers they are just more reliable honestly at least from what i have witnessed.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, the AI would be a factory rifle, </div></div>

+1

I have an AW and it has run flawlessly for 6 years in the worst weather the UK can provide.....that may not be anywhere near as bad as the conditions others may encounter but I know the action is tested to limits well beyond what my rifle encounters in it's life.

I have limited experience of high dollar custom actions but the trued 700SA in my GAP works fine...but as Kirk mentions...tolerances are tight and may be a concern once you throw in a good amount of dust, mud, grit, snow...or whatever else you might enounter out there.

For an all weather rifle.....maybe an AE or (certainly) an AW if the budget allows

 

[Big Cal]

Re: Most reliable actions

I'd get a Remington 700 or 700 footprint action they don't base most of the high dollar actions you mentioned are based on the 700 footprint and are compatible with most factory parts and as for the factory actions the aftermarket for them is huge. I personally really like the surgeon actions that's the way I'm goin for my wsm build

 

[Sportin Wood]

Re: Most reliable actions

What about Daisy or Red Rider?

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Most reliable actions

Mauser has proved itself as a reliable action I'd say. I run alot of Savage guns and the only complaint is the dreaded bolt lift. A remington runs smoother on the bolt...or at least on the up stroke. I think you can build a solid shooter on just about any action really. I've had several and all can be built to shoot. Now I've never had a custom action, but mostly because I seem to not be able, or willing, to afford em.

 

[RingSteel]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surgeon's one-piece bolt, integrated picatinny rail, and integrated recoil lug sold me..</div></div>

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Re: Most reliable actions

Custom, bolt, dangerous game rifles are built on Mauser or Mauser clones for a reason. That reason is reliability not convention.

Look at the changes made to a 700 action when it is customized. Alterations to the bolt handle, extractor and ejector are all reliability issues. Issues that are not present in the pre-64 M70.

The reason the 700, push feed post-64 and various clones exist is simply that they require less machine time. The M70 is essentially a 98 with an improved safety.

 

[Fischer03]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RingSteel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Surgeon's one-piece bolt, integrated picatinny rail, and integrated recoil lug sold me..</div></div>

Couldn't have said it better. </div></div>

Someone should try combined surgeon's integrated picatinny rain, and integrated recoil lug with bighorns floating bolthead design.

 

[jbell]

Re: Most reliable actions

Hands down AIAW/AX, for factory or custom end of story!

 

[Supersubes]

Re: Most reliable actions

I have to agree with Teamsendit on the Remington aftermarket triggers. I think adjustment palys a large role in the unreliability though. Adjusting out all the overtravel and running little sear engagement is just asking for trouble in a dirty environment. One of the best things about my AW is the trigger. It never changes. Of course the AE has the same trigger.

 

[excaliber]

Re: Most reliable actions

I am a gunsmith and work on guns everyday. Every gun has flaws. But if I was given a chance to pick a rifle that works in any condition, it would have to be a mauser, preferably a commercial mauser or a winchester with controlled round feed. Custom actions are to tight or to heavy, Remington style triggers don`t work in dirty conditions well, winchester and mauser triggers are very simple and they work dirty. Why do you think more of the (mauser or winchester)go to Africa to hunt dangerous game. Look at the extractors on custom action,to little for extraction in hot climate, look at the extractor on mauser and winchester.BIG EXTRACTORS WORK BETTER.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Most reliable actions

I think an AK is the gold standard of rock solid reliability. However, I know we're talking bolt guns/precision rifles.

With my Savage, a match day ended abruptly when I stuck a round in the chamber. I ripped the rim off the case when I smacked the bolt handle with a mallet. I went home and had to beat a live cartridge out of the chamber. Some luttle bit of ratshit debris was in the chamber...all i had to do was clean it and all was well....

Had i had an action that day, with a big fat ugly claw extractor, i have no doubt I coulds yanked that cartridge out with the bolt. I coulda cleaned my chamber, and finished the match.

I agree that a truly reliable action MUST have a big fat ugly claw extractor. Remmys and clones, sakos, savages, etc etc have pathetic extractirs, and when your in the field and a bit of schmeg gets in your chamber - you're fucked.

I have no experience with AI...lots of people endorse them...what design features do they have rhat make them SO reliable?

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Most reliable actions

There's a reason why most of the guys who go face to face with animals that can stomp and bite you carry Mauser type actions.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Re: Most reliable actions

What do the brave men that go face to face with animals that shoot back use?

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Most reliable actions

Automatic rifles with small extractors! haha

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hypno</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets talk rifle actions.

Say a guy wanted to build a rifle that would perform flawlessly all day every day. Rain, shine, snow, ice, sand, mud, ect. The rifle needs to feed reliably, eject reliably, and the safety needs to never fail. The firing pin on the rifle needs to strike the primer every time the trigger is pulled. Which actions have the best setup for a bolt release to work the most reliably every time?</div></div>

Accuracy International

I went over and over about it before I purchased one. I HAVE to have a rifle that absolutely, positively works. It's not just a bad day at the range if it doesn't.

However.....I have carried mildly tuned 700's with their "pathetic extractors" all over this god forsaken planet in some of the worst conditions and not had an issue. In fact to date I have had exactly one 700 extractor malfunction and it was easily replaced and back up and running. That rifle has several thousand rounds since without an issue. There are many 700's across the world hunting the most dangerous game on the planet. I would say that says a little for the design.

Then again, you have someone spec out a tight chamber, run neck sized ammo, throw in blowing sand, rain, snow and ice. Now it's the extractors fault when a case sticks. I guess I have never seen that one at a match.

I am not saying that Remington 700's are the most reliable rifle out there. They just aren't anywhere near as horrible as some would lead you to believe. I have several sitting in the safe next to much more expensive rifles.

 

[Jeepocabra]

Re: Most reliable actions

Yeup Ak for ultimate reliability. Or a maybe a Fal.

 

[olympian]

Re: Most reliable actions

British Enfields - for peak performance in mud

To answer your question based on your list, the M70-FN would in my opinion be the most reliable. It is a good, simple, well designed action with a simple trigger system and ejector/extractor system. I wish someone (like Surgeon) would make an updated M70 with an integrated rail, shorter lock time, longer tenon, two-stage trigger, etc.

 

[sf88]

Re: Most reliable actions

I've never had an issue with any of my surgeons after thousands of rounds. As far as semi autos, I've owned everything from FAL's to AK's to Scars and ARs. As long as you take care of them and buy QUALITY to begin with, none of them will let you down.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepocabra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeup Ak for ultimate reliability. Or a maybe a Fal. </div></div>

Really?

Did you hear that on the internet?

 

[BigNoise]

Re: Most reliable actions

When it comes to automatic weapons, nothing beats those two for reliability.

 

[sf88]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigNoise</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When it comes to automatic weapons, nothing beats those two for reliability. </div></div>

You can make any weapon stop working, I've seen cheap ass AK's fail just as easily as a cheaply made AR. I'd gladly run my Scar, or any of my LMT's against an FAL or AK 7 days of the week. If you're talking bone dry no care whatsoever, I'd still say the scar is just as good as the AK, probably better than the FAL if you're talking about one the DSA incarnations, and the LMT would still get to 450-500 rounds before she stopped. If you can't lube after shooting 500 rounds you probably have bigger issues to worry about.

 

[hewlett260]

Re: Most reliable actions

Anything from AI for bolts and the HK 416

 

[alibi]

Re: Most reliable actions

Mauser. M1/M14.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then again, you have someone spec out a tight chamber, run neck sized ammo, throw in blowing sand, rain, snow and ice. Now it's the extractors fault when a case sticks. I guess I have never seen that one at a match.

I am not saying that Remington 700's are the most reliable rifle out there. They just aren't anywhere near as horrible as some would lead you to believe. I have several sitting in the safe next to much more expensive rifles. </div></div>

You misunderstood my point, LoneWolf. Obviously it is not the extractor's fault when you get a round stuck in the chamber. It is your own fault. However, when using a rifle the way many people here do, it is pretty easy to accidentally allow some debris to get in your chamber and cause the round to stick (it doesn't take much). A little bitch extractor has the "right" to rip your case rim off and flip you the bird while doing so. My point is a big claw extractor will just DO IT.... Which is a nice benefit.

I'm not hating on 700's. They are fine rifles that have proven themselves. However, the question is "What is the MOST reliable action?"..... Not "What is an ADEQUATELY reliable action?"

 

[bchibb]

Re: Most reliable actions

For the money a Remy 700

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Most reliable actions

I have been shooting bolt guns for 45 years. I would guess over 10,000 some years and in the hundreds of thousands of total rounds.
I have only seen two actions that have not failed me so far. Mauser 98 and Rem 700. The Winchester 70 has failed on many occasions. The claw type extractor will jump the rim of a stuck case, it is not nearly so rigid as a Mauser. I do like the actions though. Also the Win will dump gas in your face when a case fails. The 700's just work. They amaze me.
RTH

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Most reliable actions

Toss up between the 1903A3 and Model 70, but I guess in reality, they are both Mauser clones.

The Mosin would be there but for the fact its easy to get them to jam up feeding them with clips.

 

[bchibb]

Re: Most reliable actions

For the money a Rem 700

 

[Dick D]

Re: Most reliable actions

Hypno, Well probably most of the popular actions will usually meet most of the conditions you mentioned, and I mean most and usually and most.
For absolute positive every time all of them not much beats the standard 110 year old 98 Mauser and the FN commerical version.
It's loose, sloppy, not impressively accurate by todays standards but it just flat always works.

 

[671RTO9513]

Re: Most reliable actions

If my target is going to eat me, stomp me or shoot me and I need a bolt action I am 100% confident will work 100% of the time, there is only one.
Mauser 98

 

[R.O.U.S.]

Re: Most reliable actions

This thread made me think of this video. Any system can fail. Although I have not fired one personally, the AW does have an excellent reputation for reliability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu9JEoHMBPA

Ugh, I suck. I don't know how to embed.

 

[kennesawhunter]

Re: Most reliable actions

Sako with the 3 lug

 

[SIE107]

Re: Most reliable actions

I love reading these pissing match threads! Reminds me of the stuff on Youtube!

 

[Hoploman]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.O.U.S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread made me think of this video. Any system can fail. Although I have not fired one personally, the AW does have an excellent reputation for reliability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu9JEoHMBPA

Ugh, I suck. I don't know how to embed. </div></div>


I have to agree. Shooters tend to forget that the Accuracy International isn't just about accuracy. A huge design intent was reliability in adverse conditions, while preserving accuracy and being robust too. Same with the Sako TRG.



Controlled round feed is a bonus, but it isn't nearly as important as it is made out to be. Especially not in precision, slow fire type shooting typical of snipers. It's better suited for dangerous game hunters who may have to reload in a real hurry with the rifle not in an ideal orientation. Blade ejectors are good too, but again - not that significantly better.

Triggers make a difference in reliability. The simpler, the better. Which is why the Mauser/M70 triggers are so reliable. 700 triggers aren't bad, they've served the Marines and Army pretty well. However, most of the after market 700 triggers simply aren't reliable in field conditions. These are for target shooting, benchrest and other shooting sports. Not for tactical, sniper, hunting or other types of field use. When shooters decide to take these excellent, very fine triggers out into the field - they often get an unpleasant surprise.


Now, this thread is about ACTIONS. I'd say for older designs, the Mauser is hard to beat. For modern designs, the Accuracy International. A generic rule of thumb I go by is that actions/rifles originally designed and built for military purposes tend to be the most reliable. As reliability is always a concern for the military. While the 700 is great, reliable and has a good record - it was originally a commercial design for hunters. There are better platforms. The question is, for YOU - how much better do you need? Most people here aren't stalking in the frozen arctic, nor the sand storms of middle east. While the AI is better, the 700 has been to these places with the Marines and Army and, from the reports, it's done pretty well.

 

[TorF]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do the brave men that go face to face with animals that shoot back use? </div></div>

You want the brave men to have a 50 - 1 kill ratio against the bad guys. You do this with superior autos with small extractors. Statistically you win the war but don't forget you loose a braveman for every 50 bad guys killed. Sometimes the loss of a brave man is caused by weapon faliure. You still win the war.

In the DGR hunting fields you want a 50000 - 0 kill ratio. Thats were the CRF or double rifles come into play. A killed hunter is bad business.

 

[chrisj]

Re: Most reliable actions

Winchester M70/ FN with claw extractor. I have NEVER had a problem with feeding or ejection from a M70 CRF or 3 FN's and I'm talking Many thousands of rounds fired. I Have had issues with Savage, R 700 and push feed Win 70's with rounds popping out of mag and jamming. A CRF.mauser action grabs the rim of the cartridge as soon as the bolt contacts the case in the mag. You can grab a cartridge and push the bolt halfway and the cartridke is still attached to the bolt unlike a pushfeed where the cartridge is loose in the action after it leaves the mag. Most DG hunters use a form of Mauser/CRF due to their reliabilty in cartridge feeding and extraction.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Most reliable actions

I am with RTH1800 on the Mauser. The reason that the Mauser beats the M70 on reliability, is John Browning. It was designed by him to be magazine fed only. The extractor is NOT meant to hop over the rim of the chambered cartridge. It is held in place by the action when the bolt is closed. It will sometimes break if forced to hop over the head of a chambered round that has been dropped into the chamber instead of running through the magazine. The M70, and butchered "customized" Mausers have frequently had that shoulder inside the action relieved to make it easy for sport shooters to drop a fresh round in the chamber and close the bolt. The one FN on the M70 action I have played with was reluctant to close also on a chambered round. Maybe it hadn't been "improved" as much as the M70.

 

[dbateman]

Re: Most reliable actions

The most reliable action ?
I like the SMLE they are very reliable I have owned a few and like them they just work
I still have one chambered in 303-25.

I am also a fan of the Mauser action , I have one that will not feed the last round of the mag at the moment , that is the only issue I can think of that I have had with a Mauser .

The Rem 700 I have not had as much experience with the 700 as I have with other action's I have had no issues with feeding extracting ejecting or trigger issue's
for me the 700 has been reliable .

I have heard all the stories about the 700 I think most of it come's from the fact that there are so many of them around , and also people messing with them when they should just go shoot it .

For semi auto's I do have a soft spot for the Aussie SLR they seemed pretty reliable to me . there are probably better things around this is just my experience .

 

[Dollman]

Re: Most reliable actions

So far a trued Remington 700 action has been flawless for me except for the bit of "clunkyness" the bolt has. The smoothness or lack of smothness it has from working it back and forth. It's a long action magnum. The rifle is crazy accurate and precise. I've used it during the rain and in the wet with mud. Never has jammed or has the brass got stuck. I have just over 1100 rounds through it. I've tried a few short actions patterned after the Remington 700 for a new build and have found that the Surgeons 591 bolt is real "silky smooth" throughout all it's movement. I just hope it's as near smooth when the new rifle is done. Don't know how the Surgeons will act if I get a little dirt and water in it.

 

[tye270]

Re: Most reliable actions

what do the guys who put their lives on the line use, swat or military. I have used a rem 700 my whole life and never had any problum any time! for the money you can not get better! most high dollar actions are bassed off the 700 anyways. On top of it all look at what you can do with a 700. parts are easy to find and upgrade.

ok not i know their are alot of nice actions/rifles out there, I do not know of them all i am sure. I just have one question when it comes to that much accuracy. Can you tell the diffrence down range in an eighth of an inch that is less than the diamiter of your bullet. is it possibule you as a shooter made that error? we are humans and I know my gun will hit pennies when i can! thats the thing though.

I am not bad mouthing any of the very high dollar actions or hand laped barrels. I would love to have one (damn women!!!) anyways before getting caught up in so much money and time ask your self, can i shoot that well? i am guilty of doing this myself hope this helped someone!

 

[tdow]

Re: Most reliable actions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am with RTH1800 on the Mauser. The reason that the Mauser beats the M70 on reliability, is John Browning. It was designed by him to be magazine fed only. </div></div>

Is that why they call him John "Paul Mauser" Browning?

 

[Dollman]

Re: Most reliable actions

I think that the Remington 700 in the 5R version is used for the military, SWAT, etc.. So the 700 would be reliable from the standpoint that they use it. Or maybe Remington is the cheapest bidder for the product. Some say the the Winchester 70 is a better action. Some say the Howa is a better action. Who knows and who cares if the rifle shoots straight and lasts. (Barrels are expendable) Some say the newer Remington 700 is lacking quality or that you need to put an M-16 style extractor in it. The internet is full of alot of shit as I'm running a trued Remington 700 reciever without alot of stuff or problems that people on the internet say I should be running or am going to have problems with. I also have never had a single problem with a Remington 700. The aftermarket actions are just smoother than the factory. The woman does raise hell at the cost. The smoothness should help the shooter. At least I hope so. You are right that alot of accuracy and precision is the shooter him or herself. Also his or her skills have a shelf life. All I'm saying is that the trued Remington 700 action just works fine for my application and that is 1000 yard target shooting. I'm building the next rifle for 1000 yard target from the Surgeon reciever and only hope it's as smooth as the one I've handled. If not then I've learned something.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[tye270]

Re: Most reliable actions

very nice!!! that was very well worded even helped me learn somthing!!! thanks i agree that if it works and shoots strait who cares alot of this stuff is personal prefrance. just like trucks everybody has their favorite, the others 'wont run" well if its a ford chevy even a dodge they will all do what is asked of them. same here with actions!

 

[2Shots]

Re: Most reliable actions

For what its worth, I have had rounds slip by the extractor on a 700, not my claw on my fn, I've had the ejector plunger stick back from a sliver of brass stock in the hole on my 700 leaving the brass in the ejector port, not my fn, the safety on my 700 blocks the sear in the trigger assembly but the firing pin is still cocked and being held back, my fn safety holds the firing pin itself back, you could take the trigger assembly out and throw it on the bench. But these are just my observations, I shoot them both and they both perform very well and there are probably way more 700's on the street and on the firing line than model 70's, but you decide.