PRS Talk Mulligans?....Really

[accurate obsession]

I guess from all the points made that mulligan $'s applied to make the match better, paid RO's, end of season banquet for the local range or something like that, well ok. But, mulligans are a re-shoot - a do-over if you will, at the whim of the competitor not for circumstances beyond the control of the shooter. These scores cannot be applied to a national ranking senerio unless EVERY range/match is providing access to mulligans. Is that wrong?

 

[LV Precision]

I guess from all the points made that mulligan $'s applied to make the match better, paid RO's, end of season banquet for the local range or something like that, well ok. But, mulligans are a re-shoot - a do-over if you will, at the whim of the competitor not for circumstances beyond the control of the shooter. These scores cannot be applied to a national ranking senerio unless EVERY range/match is providing access to mulligans. Is that wrong?

Yes.

 

[Killer Deal]

Not sure why some are so wound up over this topic. It’s all relative. It everyone has access to a mulligan at a particular match hard to argue how someone is getting an advantage. Half the time the mulligan costs you points or you see the same score.
I like the fact that the funds raised for mulligans always go to some good cause - ROs, 4h, whatever.
I would prefer not to have mulligans at a match. I always buy one when they do but it’s a mind game deciding when to use it.

I don't think anyone has any qualms with it as a fundraiser or charity match to raise money. The specific instance that blew the ceiling off of everything was a select few competitors using mulligans at the PRS Finale/AG Cup Finale while others were taken unaware. I've only been competing for 2 years and never knew that mulligan was even a thing. With sanctioned rules for a major sanctioned event its something that should be one in writing (for better or worst) and known to all competitors which it is not. And I've read it in its entirety. I'm in the Northeast Region of the U.S. and never even heard of a milligan in PRS, nor did it makes sense to consider one unless it was a safety issue or stage malfunction.

 

[Mordamer]

I don't think anyone has any qualms with it as a fundraiser or charity match to raise money. The specific instance that blew the ceiling off of everything was a select few competitors using mulligans at the PRS Finale/AG Cup Finale while others were taken unaware. I've only been competing for 2 years and never knew that mulligan was even a thing. With sanctioned rules for a major sanctioned event its something that should be one in writing (for better or worst) and known to all competitors which it is not. And I've read it in its entirety. I'm in the Northeast Region of the U.S. and never even heard of a milligan in PRS, nor did it makes sense to consider one unless it was a safety issue or stage malfunction.

There were absolutely no mulligans at the PRS Finale or AG Cup.

 

[Killer Deal]

There were absolutely no mulligans at the PRS Finale or AG Cup.

So what blew the ceiling on all of this? That's the impression that it left me with.

 

[NiteQwill]

Joke's aside all honesty this is why I haven't shot a match in 5+yrs... Too much arguing, bitching, politics, and I can have just as much fun going to the range with a handful of friends minus the stupidity... But then again as time goes I hate being around people so maybe it's me

I don't understand comments like this. Which and where do these matches exists? I've been shooting a long time from east to west coast (USPSA, service rifle, PRS, etc) and I have yet to experience the arguing, bitching, or politics. Everyone seems to be having a good time everywhere I go. I dunno, I also smile a lot (too much?) and don't act like an asshole... Which according to this thread that's all these shooting events are filled with.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Mulligans are a stupid idea. Why would anyone agree to this? For a charity or other type of fun match fine, but anything with points involved, no way.

 

[Mordamer]

So what blew the ceiling on all of this? That's the impression that it left me with.

Some guy made a facebook post on one of the PRS pages trying to stir the pot and social media took it from there.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

So what blew the ceiling on all of this? That's the impression that it left me with.

PRS Rimfire.

It was run as a regional series this year. Some regions allowed mulligans, and others (like Atlantic Coast, & NE) didn't. No problem there, other than no mention of mulligans in the rules, I guess.

The drama happened because PRS also tracked rimfire scores nationally, held a national finale match with invites based on those scores, and handed out year end overall awards based on those scores. So there were shooters from regions that offered mulligans competing against shooters from regions that didn't. Maybe not a big deal for guys in the middle, but it's not hard to imagine a do-over making a difference for a shooter who is generally in the top 10 and often winning matches.

I doubt there would've been a problem if the rule book had addressed mulligans under the reshoot rule. And hopefully PRS will clean up the rules and there will be more consistency going forward.

 

[LV Precision]

There were absolutely no mulligans at the PRS Finale or AG Cup.

And this is how absolute garbage rumors get started by guys mouthing off on stuff they have no clue about. I mean, come on…

 

[iceng]

Some guy made a facebook post on one of the PRS pages trying to stir the pot and social media took it from there.

It worked. Look as us.

A few years ago we had a morning "cold bore" shot. (2 day even, hiking around a huge working farm, run what you brung, no chance to go back for anything, even food and water, etc.. @lowlight wet dream) Was a frosty day, like 7am, and there were a deck of playing cards stapled to boards. On the start signal, EVERYONE shot at the same time. 15sec from buzzer. Gun started prone mag in, shooter stood behind it. Closest to the centre of card "won". Door prize, no points. Only cards with centre symbols were used. It was also some odd ball distance like 112m, to mess with people's heads.

People shot the wrong target, some cards were completely missed, one had 2 or I think even 3 on it ? Much bitching, was awesome. A guy named Greg centre punched his. Great shot.

Another national comp the other year had a cold bore chicken. Silhouette chicken, 200m. I'd have to check the exact stage brief, but it was your first shot of the day, and you start your stage IMMEDIATELY after. Single shot, then your stage starts. Didn't matter what stage you started on, there was a chicken at 200m at each shooting stage. 1 point for your score. Not as many people hit it as you would think. Was... 30 sec on-top of your stage time or something ?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Everyone can’t have their cake and eat it too.

$300 match fees with around 100 average shooters doesn’t leave any meat on the bones for an organization to organize things properly.

This is why it’s basically just a network of national MD’s doing their own thing an following guidelines (some better than others).

If PRS or NRL were to properly regulate matches they would need their own officials and such to be at every match in the country.

That all of a sudden creates a ton of salaries that need to be paid. That would require the organization to take a much larger cut of the entry fees. They currently take close to what it costs to run the scoring side.

Their main income is from sponsors/marketing for industry businesses.

That would cut way too much into the MD’s profit which isn’t close to what people think it is. Then either the match fees go up substantially or the MD stops hosting matches or affiliating with the series.


Mainstream companies won’t sponsor this stuff and it’ll never be on TV. So the revenue stream is limited.

Basically you “get what you pay for.” And that comes with stuff like this happening that wouldn’t otherwise happen on a better funded business.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

And I speak from the viewpoint of someone who used to bash PRS.

I decided to put my money where my mouth is and start working on my own organization/league.

I quickly found out it’s a fairly shit business idea and I’d have to change things so much from the current status quo that I don’t believe it would have taken off without some serious long term work and time investment. And it probably was worse than 50/50 even then.

 

[Solo 43]

I really couldn't read all the posts...simply because its hilarious. Mulligans.....from my experience, came from the golf world, when you were teeing off, ON THE FIRST HOLE, and snapped, sliced, topped, rolled, etc. your first shot. Since I started playing golf, in 1973, mulligans may have born there (no, I no longer play....screwed my back up in '95....which finished that part of my life). So, back to mulligans......and this shooting sport wants to be taken seriously? And yes, I competed for a long time.....golf, high power, long range, archery (3d and FITA).

 

[Mordamer]

I really couldn't read all the posts...simply because its hilarious. Mulligans.....from my experience, came from the golf world, when you were teeing off, ON THE FIRST HOLE, and snapped, sliced, topped, rolled, etc. your first shot. Since I started playing golf, in 1973, mulligans may have born there (no, I no longer play....screwed my back up in '95....which finished that part of my life). So, back to mulligans......and this shooting sport wants to be taken seriously? And yes, I competed for a long time.....golf, high power, long range, archery (3d and FITA).

You should have read more.

 

[Danrobberg]

I guess from all the points made that mulligan $'s applied to make the match better, paid RO's, end of season banquet for the local range or something like that, well ok. But, mulligans are a re-shoot - a do-over if you will, at the whim of the competitor not for circumstances beyond the control of the shooter. These scores cannot be applied to a national ranking senerio unless EVERY range/match is providing access to mulligans. Is that wrong?

In that case all matches would have to have the same wind and the same target size. Some matches are known for being much better for points than others. I don’t think they will get the votes to continue allowing mulligans but if they do I would assume they would be at the discretion of the MD.

 

[Danrobberg]

I don't think anyone has any qualms with it as a fundraiser or charity match to raise money. The specific instance that blew the ceiling off of everything was a select few competitors using mulligans at the PRS Finale/AG Cup Finale while others were taken unaware. I've only been competing for 2 years and never knew that mulligan was even a thing. With sanctioned rules for a major sanctioned event its something that should be one in writing (for better or worst) and known to all competitors which it is not. And I've read it in its entirety. I'm in the Northeast Region of the U.S. and never even heard of a milligan in PRS, nor did it makes sense to consider one unless it was a safety issue or stage malfunction.

Site your source and name names for people using mulligans at either match. If you are going to throw out a claim like that let’s here some details.

 

[just browsing]

Lol the fact that they even had to send out a survey is hilarious. They need to outlaw re-shoots for anything other than prop/target failures while they're at it.

Hopefully (and I think they will) these Outlaw sniper and team matches are going to become MUCH more popular in the next few years… because the current PRS sanctioning body is a complete dumpster fire.

 

[Campguy308]

Been about 10 years, but I used to 3 gun in southern California at a range near Lancaster that I don't remember the name of. Damn near everyone in the game there was a master class shooter. As they let you keep your own score.

I've been to club matches that have mulligans, AND you keep your own score. No impact, no problem.

Many dont take club matches seriously, but to many of the mid-pack guys, the club matches are their big matches. It's important to have a solid score keeping system, and the mulligan thing is obviously a bit contentious.

 

[NiteQwill]

The specific instance that blew the ceiling off of everything was a select few competitors using mulligans at the PRS Finale/AG Cup Finale while others were taken unaware.

W T H are you talking about?????????? No such thing at either of these events.

 

[sleeplz]

@lowlight run your own league that appeases sniper hide members. Complaints on interwebz is easy, can you show us how it’s done in physical form? Under you I’m sure there will be zero complaints or issues ever.

 

[iceng]

I can't see that idea derailing at all.

Can you demotivate in a comp somehow ? Demotivation coin, like a Mulligan ? Hah

 

[Killer Deal]

I stand corrected. Apparently the information I had was incorrect. I'll see myself out of this conversation.

 

[BoltRunner]

I don't understand comments like this. Which and where do these matches exists? I've been shooting a long time from east to west coast (USPSA, service rifle, PRS, etc) and I have yet to experience the arguing, bitching, or politics. Everyone seems to be having a good time everywhere I go. I dunno, I also smile a lot (too much?) and don't act like an asshole... Which according to this thread that's all these shooting events are filled with.

I'd have to say if you haven't ever experienced any of that either your just extremely lucky or maybe they just pre-screen everyone for your matches to make sure everyone is really nice. Get a membership at OKC GC, shoot a match there then lemme know if you've changed your mind...

 

[NiteQwill]

I'd have to say if you haven't ever experienced any of that either your just extremely lucky or maybe they just pre-screen everyone for your matches to make sure everyone is really nice. Get a membership at OKC GC, shoot a match there then lemme know if you've changed your mind...

Been there and Texas 2 day matches. Felt nothing like that.

 

[BoltRunner]

Been there and Texas 2 day matches. Felt nothing like that.

Well maybe it's just me then and all the matches your at are filled with extra sweet people that leave all the BS at the gate

 

[SD Carpenter]

Well maybe it's just me then and all the matches your at are filled with extra sweet people that leave all the BS at the gate

What's the common denominator here I wonder?

 

[BoltRunner]

What's the common denominator here I wonder?

LoL previously admitted I'm an asshole no need for you to wonder

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I shoot a different game. Service Rifle used to have alibis, bad ammo, mag jammed, bolt locked back instead of feeding; anything that the shooter didn't touch. First round of the magazine was your fault. Other than that you called an alibi for reshoot.

Anyhow, we're shooting a Dam Neck one day and I'm squaded with a Marine and we're shooting Rapid Fire Prone. Second round of two from his fist mag misfeeds. He clears it loads his 8 round and midway through that mag has a misfeed. Clears it and drops two rounds out. Reseats the mag. Finishes the mag and single loads the three cleared rounds. Ended up in the mid 80's with 10 scored rounds. I asked why he didn't call the alibi and he said in combat there are no alibis.

Shoot you score and score your shots. Leave the mulligans on the golf course.

 

[LV Precision]

I shoot a different game. Service Rifle used to have alibis, bad ammo, mag jammed, bolt locked back instead of feeding; anything that the shooter didn't touch. First round of the magazine was your fault. Other than that you called an alibi for reshoot.

Anyhow, we're shooting a Dam Neck one day and I'm squaded with a Marine and we're shooting Rapid Fire Prone. Second round of two from his fist mag misfeeds. He clears it loads his 8 round and midway through that mag has a misfeed. Clears it and drops two rounds out. Reseats the mag. Finishes the mag and single loads the three cleared rounds. Ended up in the mid 80's with 10 scored rounds. I asked why he didn't call the alibi and he said in combat there are no alibis.

Shoot you score and score your shots. Leave the mulligans on the golf course.

Cool story bro, not remotely related to the current PRS game.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Cool story bro, not remotely related to the current PRS game.

Comment means no to mulligans. Take it for what you want. CMP and NRA rule changes evoke the same arguments.

 

[Oldloser]

Also, if you don’t miss, they can’t beat you with a mulligan. I have a 2nd and 3rd place trophies from Tx Precision Matches Leupold Steel and Fall Classic matches in 2021.

At least one of those I lost first place because someone used a mulligan and got a much better score on a stage.

But, I dropped 9 shots out of 180 shots between those two matches. At least 5 of those 9 were “unforced errors” in my opinion.

So, before I’m gonna lose my shit over mulligans, I’ll be practicing until I’m losing matches I cleaned because someone had a mulligan.

I’m not against mulligans for new shooters. They make a great learning tool. But if they are used by top shooters to gain an advantage at the top, then that’s poor sportsmanship.

During my last match, I had a mulligan, but was just a few points off the leader. Had I used It on the one stage I messed up on, I would have cleaned the stage I screwed up on and won. I stood there and realized that was not the way I wanted to win my first match. Or any match.

The arguments on this thread only further clarified this for me.

Im fine with anyone in mid pack or below, but not for the shooters who are doing well.

 

[Mormegil87]

When season points affect cut lines at the AG Cup and determine season placement, mulligans have no place at 2 day matches.

 

[LV Precision]

When season points affect cut lines at the AG Cup and determine season placement, mulligans have no place at 2 day matches.

Can you seriously explain how scoring at one match impacts another? If a match has mulligans, everyone at that match has equal opportunity to do well. PRS points are allocated based on relative placement at matches, and scores in 1 match dont affect the others. There is a lot of hypotheticals that it might impact cut lines for AG Cup or the final placement, but I have yet to see a concrete example where someone missed a major trophy because of what happened in another match.

This is all just griping by midpack and below shooters who are upset someone placed above them. Just clean more stages and you won’t be so upset someone used a mulligan. If you’re not shooting 100% in a match you should focus on your own game and stop worrying about others.

 

[Mormegil87]

Do I really need to?

Shooter 1 shoots matches A, B, and C due to proximity, time off etc. None of which have mulligans.

Shooter 2 shoots matches D, E and F due to the same factors. At least one has mulligans.

Shooter 1 finishes with 93, 97 and 92 points.

Shooter 2 finishes with 89, 97, and 92 points. But wait Shooter two got that mulligan and turned that 89 into a 95. Shooter 2 was afforded an opportunity Shooter 1 was not.

They need to either be at every match or none of them.

And stop with that mid pack bullshit excuse. If it weren't for mid pack and below then none of the series would exist.

 

[LV Precision]

Do I really need to?

Shooter 1 shoots matches A, B, and C due to proximity, time off etc. None of which have mulligans.

Shooter 2 shoots matches D, E and F due to the same factors. At least one has mulligans.

Shooter 1 finishes with 93, 97 and 92 points.

Shooter 2 finishes with 89, 97, and 92 points. But wait Shooter two got that mulligan and turned that 89 into a 95. Shooter 2 was afforded an opportunity Shooter 1 was not.

They need to either be at every match or none of them.

And stop with that mid pack bullshit excuse. If it weren't for mid pack and below then none of the series would exist.

That assumes they will improve their score, or other shooters at the mulligan match won't also improve their scores. Again, all a hypothetical that has not been definitively shown to have made a difference anywhere.

 

[Mormegil87]

It doesn't matter if it's hypothetical. Some shooters are afforded an opportunity that provides a competitive advantage through a rules omission, that others are not. Either require them or ban them across the board.

 

[LV Precision]

It doesn't matter if it's hypothetical. Some shooters are afforded an opportunity that provides a competitive advantage through a rules omission, that others are not. Either require them or ban them across the board.

 

[Oldloser]

That assumes they will improve their score, or other shooters at the mulligan match won't also improve their scores. Again, all a hypothetical that has not been definitively shown to have made a difference anywhere.

Not hypothetical at all. I would have won the match had I used my mulligan. That would have been unfair to those who were ahead of me. Place finish is just a point or two these days.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Do I really need to?

Shooter 1 shoots matches A, B, and C due to proximity, time off etc. None of which have mulligans.

Shooter 2 shoots matches D, E and F due to the same factors. At least one has mulligans.

Shooter 1 finishes with 93, 97 and 92 points.

Shooter 2 finishes with 89, 97, and 92 points. But wait Shooter two got that mulligan and turned that 89 into a 95. Shooter 2 was afforded an opportunity Shooter 1 was not.

They need to either be at every match or none of them.

And stop with that mid pack bullshit excuse. If it weren't for mid pack and below then none of the series would exist.

What he’s saying is it’s not people at the top of the leaderboard complaining.

You can be sure that if people were losing ground at the top of the leaderboard due to mulligans (or anything at all controversial) they would be yelling off a mountain top.

The people making the most noise about it aren’t losing or gaining anything from mulligans as their skill isn’t at a level where it matters.

And I completely agree that non top shooters keep things going. Which is part of the reason mulligans are popular some places.

Also, a “sport” requiring participation from non national level skilled participants means there’s 100 other things people should be concerned with other than this issue. This signifies it either doesn’t have the required amount of participation to be legitimate or it needs more time to develop.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Not hypothetical at all. I would have won the match had I used my mulligan. That would have been unfair to those who were ahead of me. Place finish is just a point or two these days.

And you likely lost the match to someone who used a mulligan. Thus making it completely fair.

 

[Mormegil87]

Good thing it counts the same as yours.

Hoplite see the above post, not using it cost him a match.

 

[Oldloser]

And you likely lost the match to someone who used a mulligan. Thus making it completely fair.

No he did not nor did anyone ahead of me.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Do I really need to?

Shooter 1 shoots matches A, B, and C due to proximity, time off etc. None of which have mulligans.

Shooter 2 shoots matches D, E and F due to the same factors. At least one has mulligans.

Shooter 1 finishes with 93, 97 and 92 points.

Shooter 2 finishes with 89, 97, and 92 points. But wait Shooter two got that mulligan and turned that 89 into a 95. Shooter 2 was afforded an opportunity Shooter 1 was not.

They need to either be at every match or none of them.

And stop with that mid pack bullshit excuse. If it weren't for mid pack and below then none of the series would exist.

Also, what happens when shooter two strategically attends matches known for meatball targets or locations with little to no wind?

Your scenario still affords shooter two the opportunity to have an advantage.

And if the argument is “shooter 1 can go to those matches if he wants,” then that’s the same argument for the mulligan. You can go shoot matches that allow it just like anyone else.

 

[LV Precision]

Not hypothetical at all. I would have won the match had I used my mulligan. That would have been unfair to those who were ahead of me. Place finish is just a point or two these days.

You're complaining because you lost a club match, where you CHOSE not to use a mulligan, and then lost? You had the same opportunity as the person who did use the mulligan, but now don't take responsibility for losing based off your own decision. That makes perfect sense.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

No he did not nor did anyone ahead of me.

So, let’s say you are at a match and you shoot the long range stage in the morning. You score 10/12 points available.

A better shooter than you shoots it at the end of the day with a switchy 4-6 o’clock wind strong enough to move the round off the plate. He has tied or out scored you on every stage.

You’re going to win that match based on luck of the draw. When the other shooter is obviously better than you and performed better than you all day.

Based on your statements, you should decline to take that trophy as the better shooter didn’t win.



And before we talk about real world stuff, manufactured “mulligans” happen all the time. Let’s say you and a buddy spend $10k each on a hunt. You shoot at an animal, miss, and it runs off. Your buddy takes a shot, misses, and it stands there for another shot which he makes. It was last day of the hunt and you got nothing.

You got nothing for your $10k but he did.

Point being, shit happens in shooting and it will never, ever be fair unless you’re shooting inside.

 

[Oldloser]

You're complaining because you lost a club match, where you CHOSE not to use a mulligan, and then lost? You had the same opportunity as the person who did use the mulligan, but now don't take responsibility for losing based off your own decision. That makes perfect sense.

You changed the subject. And put words in my mouth. I’ll give you a rhetorical mulligan since it’s clear you are new to both logical thinking and moral reasoning.

First. You claimed it was hypothetical that someone would win using a mulligan. I provided first hand testimony that it was not. So your point is moot and without merit.

Second. If you would take the time to read and think, you would see I chose not to use my mulligan to win. I believe my decision was an honorable one and also honored those ahead of me by doing so. I did not want to win by using a mulligan, period. It would cheapen all my training, my future wins, and worst of all, take away from others.

 

[NiteQwill]

There are seriously a million other reasons to lose a match. Being a wind bitch (first shooter), your rifle going down, you shooting in the AM vs PM, bad load, etc. A mulligan has very little factor in that outcome.

Again, I don't care either way if it remains or goes away. But the complaining about the presence of one is so minimal in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

You changed the subject. And put words in my mouth. I’ll give you a rhetorical mulligan since it’s clear you are new to both logical thinking and moral reasoning.

First. You claimed it was hypothetical that someone would win using a mulligan. I provided first hand testimony that it was not. So your point is moot and without merit.

Second. If you would take the time to read and think, you would see I chose not to use my mulligan to win. I believe my decision was an honorable one and also honored those ahead of me by doing so. I did not want to win by using a mulligan, period. It would cheapen all my training, my future wins, and worst of all, take away from others.

What he said is that it’s hypothetical that mulligans are going to effect the overall status of the national landscape.

There’s way, way too many other variables in this to point a finger at any single thing and say it can make or not make a significant impact.

If this game was in some sort of controlled environment, I’d agree. But it’s not and this issue is extremely minor. It’s just low hanging fruit to complain about because it’s much harder to account for all the other stuff.

 

[Oldloser]

So, let’s say you are at a match and you shoot the long range stage in the morning. You score 10/12 points available.

A better shooter than you shoots it at the end of the day with a switchy 4-6 o’clock wind strong enough to move the round off the plate. He has tied or out scored you on every stage.

You’re going to win that match based on luck of the draw. When the other shooter is obviously better than you and performed better than you all day.

Based on your statements, you should decline to take that trophy as the better shooter didn’t win.



And before we talk about real world stuff, manufactured “mulligans” happen all the time. Let’s say you and a buddy spend $10k each on a hunt. You shoot at an animal, miss, and it runs off. Your buddy takes a shot, misses, and it stands there for another shot which he makes. It was last day of the hunt.

This happens in every match. Only one person is first on any stage. And everyone else gets to watch. And where you start is up to the MD. All luck of the draw. It’s a feature of the format and you know it going in.

You have a point on the wind. Hopefully the stages will be staggered so that wind will be a factor every second or third one.

But then a poorer shooter using a mulligan to reshoot a TYL is a counterpoint.

The issue is that someone is able to use prior knowledge to reshoot a stage. It’s clearly against the spirit of the sport and not something that is honorable. Especially for placement.

As for hunting, if it’s a high stakes hunt or any hunt, I will insist that my partner get his first. And that everyone else get theirs. I don’t see how it’s a mulligan unless I slip out before dawn and wait for that critter my partner patterned the day before. Or paid the pilot to come back the next day.