My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Mgordon

Mgordon

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Nov 29, 2007
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Wellington, Ohio
www.shortactioncustoms.com
#1
Shooters, I figured I would show what I'm shooting right now. Currently its the only rifle I have that I'm shooting. I love having the ability to make quick follow up shots that are accurate. The 123 Gr bullet traveling at 2600 FPS is not as competitive as a 6.5 CM or 260 pushing a 139 at 2850, but my rig is quick and plenty accurate.

An interesting note on the 264 LBC AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel chamber. The .264 LBC AR seems to have had the 123 Lapua Scenar in mind when they designed the throat. A 123 Scenar seated at mag length is round .005" jump to the lands. A 123 Sierra Match King seated at mag length has to jump around .100" to get to the lands. My first load was with the 123 SMK but I was not getting the accuracy I wanted, so I switched to the 123 Lapua Scenar and I started getting 1/2 MOA with velocity up to 2650 FPS!!!

My last Grendel shot around 2515 with the 123 Scenar!

I'm debating on if I should paint the barrel black or leave it stainless so it can match my hard chrome bolt carrier???

I have a Thunder Beast Arms can coming into that I'm going to run, its black. So I'm not sure Any thoughts?



Here are the specs.

-Black Rain Ordnance billet upper and lower set.
-Upper and lower epoxied together for tight fit.
-Upper receiver trued
-Zero fail BCG with Les Baer Custom .264 LBC AR bolt assy.
-Geissele SD combat trigger installed
-KNS anti rotation pins installed
-Magpul PRS stock
-Larue 1.5 SPR mount
-Leupold 6.5 x 20 x 50 FFP ERT
-Krieger 1-8.5" 24" barrel, chambered in shop with .264 LBC AR reamer
-APA little bastard brake installed.
-PRI 14" carbon fiber tube.
-PRI gas block installed.

IMG_1652.jpg


IMG_1651.jpg


IMG_1650.jpg


IMG_1649.jpg


IMG_1648.jpg


IMG_1647.jpg


IMG_1618.jpg
 
#2
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Nice Build Mark!
I love my .264 LBC. I'm getting a very consistent 2468 out of an 18" Blackhole Weaponry using Factory Hornady 123 Amax's. I have shot several 1/2" groups at 200 yards. I debated the longer tube, and after seeing your velocities, I might have to build another upper.
Care to share your load?

Thanks,
STS

Oh! I'd paint it.
 
#3
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

M. Gordon -
I'm a big fan of all things 6.5mm, so my question is how does the 264 LBC AR differ from the 6.5 Grendel? Would you happen to have a cartridge diagram of the 264 LBC AR?

65Grendel.png
 
#5
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

65Grendel.png



Here is a picture of the .264 LBC round
wink.gif


It is the chamber that is a bit different. The chamber is cut like a traditional one. It lacks the compound angle at the throat that is in the Grendel.
At least that is how it was explained to me. All, I know for sure, is that it absolutely loves the 123's.
 
#6
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">M. Gordon -
I'm a big fan of all things 6.5mm, so my question is how does the 264 LBC AR differ from the 6.5 Grendel? Would you happen to have a cartridge diagram of the 264 LBC AR?

65Grendel.png

</div></div>That is a G cartridge print and same as the LBC, there is no real difference in the cartridges. The real Grendel chamber has a .300 neck diameter, Arne's original 6.5 CSS chamber has a .292 neck and the 264LBC has a .295 neck. The freebore is a little different in all of the chambers and the Grendel has a compound throat angle, it starts off at .5 or 1 degree and then ramps up to 1.5 degree, the CSS and LBC have a 1.5 degree throat.
We have had much better luck accuracy wise with a LBC type chamber, around .295 neck and .050 leade, they will shoot the Black Hills (Les Baer) 123gr SMK loads into 1/2MOA right out of the box.
 
#8
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

-Upper and lower epoxied together for tight fit.

Does epoxying the upper and lower improve accuracy a great deal? What is the purpose of this I guess I am asking? Where are you epoxying and any close up pics of this.

Nice Stick BTW.

Thanks,
 
#9
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sierrabravo45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-Upper and lower epoxied together for tight fit.

Does epoxying the upper and lower improve accuracy a great deal? What is the purpose of this I guess I am asking? Where are you epoxying and any close up pics of this.

Nice Stick BTW.

Thanks, </div></div>

If there is slop between where you (the shooter) point the rifle and where the muzzle goes during the initial stages of bullet transit down the barrel the groups will suffer.

So, the mating surfaces from the upper to the lower get glass bedded together much like a bolt gun gets the action bedded to the stock. This way when you shoot a round the upper begins to recoil and butts up against a tight surface immediately, instead of having some kind of slop in there.

I've had the rifle in my hands and looked to see where Mark bedded it, I'm not sure you'd be able to see it without an incredibly detailed shot, the work is that clean. The overall fit/finish of the rifle isn't well represented by the pictures, from seeing a few things that Mark has done, pictures generally don't do them justice...

<span style="color: #660000">Unless of course, he's denying a drink that was given to him. Then the pictures are proof that will never go away... </span>
 
#10
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Is there a huge difference in performance between the Grendal and the .264 LBC? For those of you who have used both, is it worth getting rid of one for the other?

Shooting up to 1000. Not competing...
 
#11
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

There's no difference in performance, because there's no differnce in the cartridge. The only variation is the G's throated with multiple angles on the lead (supposedly to give it better performance with many bullet weights) while the LBC has only a single angle. I also think there is a change in the the neck speck from .300 to .295, but that's it. Same dies, same cases, same data, same bullets, same performance.
 
#13
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Nice rifle Mark... I shot the upper you sent me for the first time today.. all I have to say is.. NICE! I'll post pix and groups of it when I get the chance. For anyone on here that is thinking about getting one of these things made.. Mark does some kickass work at more than reasonable prices..

-Nathan
 
#14
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a filthy, dirty shop... I can't believe you'd post pictures of such a mess
wink.gif


If you paint the rifle all black it will be extra-ninja-y, just like the 260 it's sitting next to in the picture. </div></div>

Dont worry Captain Smirnoff...I painted the barrel black last night!



I like the .264 LBC AR chamber for a few reasons

1- Alexander arms would not license me a 6.5 Grendel reamer so I decided to go with a .264 LBC AR chamber which was an unknown to me at the time. Alex Arms turning me down ended up being the best thing!!! hah

2- The neck of the LBC AR is tighter, as mentioned above its a .295" neck. Here is why that is important.

Loaded Hornady 6.5 Grendel brass measures .287-.288" neck OD. If your chamber neck is .300" then your essentially blowing your neck out to mach the chamber which would be a lot!

You go to size your brass and you have to work your neck down to seat a bullet. Typically you size it around .285-.286 in my experience. This gives you some neck tension. But the process of sizing your brass back down is not good for run out or brass life. You want to size down in .005 increments at most. Not do the whole thing in one shot. With the LBC AR chamber your brass expands to .295, then shrinks a couple thousands. My once fired brass neck measures .292-.293". So your sizing your brass a whole lot less and your getting less neck runout.

I took some measurements, with this specific rifle here is the numbers for where the bullet would need to be seated to touch the lands. Remember 2.260 is mag length.

123 SMK 2.235"
123 Lapua Scenar 2.260"
123 Hornady A-Max 2.300
130 Berger VLD hunting 2.360

So as you can see, the 123 Scenar is right at the lands when seated at mag length, the other bullets have to jump quite a bit to make it. I'm going to shoot some 123 SMK Black Hills ammo and test it out, but I'm thinking the 123 Scenar is the best bullet for this chamber for now.

Mark


 
#17
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

I'm becoming more and more intersted in the 6.5G/.264LBC. So which one would be better if you shoot a variety of bullets other than just the Scenar 123s?

And reloading for the .264LBC.. is there only Hornady brass right now? I recall Hornady brass being soft compared to other quality brass. Or did I misundersatnd above about the neck and you can use the Lupua for the 6.5G and after fireform it will be same as .264LBC but with working the neck less on the next load vs the 6.5G chamber. (If what I am thinking came out right in type)
 
#19
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Mark, your rifle well all I can say is she looks great, those are some great velocities you are getting, the fastest load I ever got was 2478 out of my 18inch barrel, it does seem that finding the right seating depth for the 123smks is critical for getting accuracy, very interested on seeing how your rifle likes the black hills ammo, it doesn't go very fast in my rifle, but it is accurate. To answer a few of the questions mentioned above, for my 264lbc, I am currently using Hornady dies, will switch to Redding as soon as I can. I have shot both 264lbc black hills ammo (123smks) and Hornady Grendel ammo (123 amax), both shot great. Loaded Hornady ammo is $18 from Midway right now, so double the fun, shoot it and then reload it. Obviously Lapua is excellent brass and I plan on getting some to reload as well. I have shot 123smks, 123 amaxs and 107smks out of my rifle, haven't shoot the scenars but plan on. I am also running a 1in8 twist, just to be a little different.
 
#20
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So which one would be better if you shoot a variety of bullets other than just the Scenar 123s?</div></div>

The Grendel's compound throat is designed specifically to shoot a multitude of bullets. Anything you feed it will shoot great.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And reloading for the .264LBC.. is there only Hornady brass right now? I recall Hornady brass being soft compared to other quality brass. Or did I misundersatnd above about the neck and you can use the Lupua for the 6.5G and after fireform it will be same as .264LBC but with working the neck less on the next load vs the 6.5G chamber. (If what I am thinking came out right in type) </div></div>

You've misunderstood. The ROUND is exactly the same between a 6.5 Grendel and the 264 LBC; it's the chambers that are different. You can shoot Hornady, Lapua or Alexander Arms Brass (which is Lapua brass with a different head stamp and a better looking price tag).

I wouldn't fire form brass for one gun and use it in another without a full resizing.
 
#21
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So which one would be better if you shoot a variety of bullets other than just the Scenar 123s?</div></div>

The Grendel's compound throat is designed specifically to shoot a multitude of bullets. Anything you feed it will shoot great.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And reloading for the .264LBC.. is there only Hornady brass right now? I recall Hornady brass being soft compared to other quality brass. Or did I misundersatnd above about the neck and you can use the Lupua for the 6.5G and after fireform it will be same as .264LBC but with working the neck less on the next load vs the 6.5G chamber. (If what I am thinking came out right in type) </div></div>

You've misunderstood. The ROUND is exactly the same between a 6.5 Grendel and the 264 LBC; it's the chambers that are different. You can shoot Hornady, Lapua or Alexander Arms Brass (which is Lapua brass with a different head stamp and a better looking price tag).

I wouldn't fire form brass for one gun and use it in another without a full resizing. </div></div>

You might can feed it whatever you want, but it's ultimately up to the rifle to decide what bullet it likes best. Some being more picky then others. Feeding it junk or what YOU think is best for it might not be the solution for the barrel you have, currently.
 
#22
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Mark,

Great looking rig and I agree 100% that the LBC was the way to go. MIne is hands down more forgiving and more accurate than the two "Official" Grendel chambered rifles I own.

For others,
I have found that my 18" LBC chambered Bartlein barrel will shoot "lights out" ~ 1/4 MOA @ 100 from the bench with LBC branded Black Hills and reloads. It has digested every brand, and type of ammo I have put through it.....and wait for it....it has the dreaded Adams Arms piston kit that degraded my accuarcy at a 100 yards a whopping .009 in group sizes and that was probably the nut behind the wheel. THE only ammo that will not hold under 3/4MOA was the wolf soft point stuff.
I cannot say the same for my Grendel chambers. They shoot exceptionally well ( on par with the LBC ) with one or two variants of the AA ammo only. They will not digest Hornady or Black Hills factory ammo reliably, and they will not shoot 123 SMK's very well....at least I have not found "the load" for them. The compound throat may give you options to shoot all ammo well but when the cartridges will not feed properly, it really doesnt matter....The LBC seems to feed any over the counter factory ammo 100% and shoots them exceptionally well.

Anyway,
Not trying to highjack Marks badass rifle thread, just glad to see that I was not the only one that was fed up with trying to get a Grendel reamer.

Great Job Mark....Now go clean your shop!....JK
 
#24
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: db_17_85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you have to modify anything to get the Adams Arms kit to function right? </div></div>

No Mods,

Sent you a PM
 
#25
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">perhaps you could write up a tutorial on that bedding process...</div></div> \


+1. THIS I HAVE TO SEE !!!
 
#26
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

What kind if powder are you using with the 123gr. Scenars? I use 29.5gr. Of Win748 with the 123gr. Scenars in my 6.5 Grendel and it shoots them .5 MOA easy.

120gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and 31.4gr. Of BL-(C)2 shoots outstanding also. All with CCI#450 primers.
 
#27
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

I shoot the dreaded 6.5 Grendel chamber and it shoots incredibly well. I have taken it to 600 yards and as long as the wind doesn't get involved, it has shot 5 different bullets in .5 moa or better. Those are 123 SMK, 123 Scenar, 120 Berger, 123 Amax (had a flyer that the breeze got
grin.gif
), and last but best was the 107 SMK .002 off.

All the heavies used 31.5 Lever from Hodgdon, AA brass, 450's, Forster dies. The 107 used 29.5 XBR 8208, AA brass, 450's, seated .002 off lands. I can jamb all of the bullets except for the 123 SMK.

This ain't no AA barrel. The AA Overwatch barrel was a chatter mark queen from leade to the muzzle. Spent way too much money trying to get it to shoot consistantly. It refused to cooperate. Mr Satern took care of that issue with a Grendel barrel from him. It is a 5R, 24", in the old upper and lower. It now has a JP FF extra long tube, JP trigger, some mag-pul goodies, mounted with a NF 5.5-22x50 hs/zs with an npr2 reticle. It also wears Whitley's Bag Rider set up too. I put it together my self and enjoyed the experience.

It wii shoot in the .3's and I expect to get into the .25's when I get through playing.

Satern barrels look great and man will mine shoot.

The Hodgdon Lever powder is a great find for this caliber. I do not see the case head swipe like I do with AA2520. That and the numbers are better.

I have got (last Sunday) some very good numbers:

  • 1-123 Scenar, 31.5 Lever, 450, AA brass, .002 off of lands, shot in the .3's @ 2650 with an sd of 5 for 5 shots.
  • 2-123 SMK, 41.5 Lever, 450, AA brass, .002 off, @ 2660 with an sd of 7. In the .4's @ 100
  • 3-120 Berger, 31.6 Lever, 450, AA brass, .005 jamb, @ 2675 with an sd of 5. In the low .3's @ 100.
  • 4-107 SMK I used 29.5 XBR, 450's, AA Brass, .002 off @ 2760. It shoots best so far at long range
 
#28
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

DHD, I personally don't think theres anything wrong with the 6.5 Grendel, and I certainly wouldn't call it dreaded, but its seems in more recent years a lot of folks are moving away from 6.5 Grendel to its variants. In the past when I mentioned on other forums that I was shooting the 264LBC, it was referred to me as a clone, which it is in a lot of respects. With regards to the Grendel a lot of these problem stems from licensing issues, we had Les Baer who built wonderfully accurate Grendels, heck he even had Black Hills make the ammo back then for him, come up with the 264LBC chamber because of these issues and make it available to everyone. You are using a Satern barrel, well I am not sure what happened but now Steve Satern is not making Grendel barrels anymore after making them for five years. Liberty has also stopped production of Grendel barrels, apparently another licensing issue There was an excellent article in Accurateshooter with regards to this.
 
#29
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

That is about as nice as it gets. I've been tempted to get a 6.5G for a while, but have continually opted for cartridges with a larger case capacity. I have a .223 for general shooting and a 6.8 for hunting, but I think something like this in 6.5G may round off my AR15 collection. Thanks for sharing, and let us know how it shoots once you get the Thunder Beast Arms Suppressor on it.
 
#31
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cuffm4615</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">perhaps you could write up a tutorial on that bedding process...</div></div> \


+1. THIS I HAVE TO SEE !!! </div></div>

+2 Me also!
 
#32
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a filthy, dirty shop... I can't believe you'd post pictures of such a mess
wink.gif


If you paint the rifle all black it will be extra-ninja-y, just like the 260 it's sitting next to in the picture. </div></div>

Dont worry Captain Smirnoff...I painted the barrel black last night!



I like the .264 LBC AR chamber for a few reasons

1- Alexander arms would not license me a 6.5 Grendel reamer so I decided to go with a .264 LBC AR chamber which was an unknown to me at the time. Alex Arms turning me down ended up being the best thing!!! hah

2- The neck of the LBC AR is tighter, as mentioned above its a .295" neck. Here is why that is important.

Loaded Hornady 6.5 Grendel brass measures .287-.288" neck OD. If your chamber neck is .300" then your essentially blowing your neck out to mach the chamber which would be a lot!

You go to size your brass and you have to work your neck down to seat a bullet. Typically you size it around .285-.286 in my experience. This gives you some neck tension. But the process of sizing your brass back down is not good for run out or brass life. You want to size down in .005 increments at most. Not do the whole thing in one shot. With the LBC AR chamber your brass expands to .295, then shrinks a couple thousands. My once fired brass neck measures .292-.293". So your sizing your brass a whole lot less and your getting less neck runout.

I took some measurements, with this specific rifle here is the numbers for where the bullet would need to be seated to touch the lands. Remember 2.260 is mag length.

123 SMK 2.235"
123 Lapua Scenar 2.260"
123 Hornady A-Max 2.300
130 Berger VLD hunting 2.360

So as you can see, the 123 Scenar is right at the lands when seated at mag length, the other bullets have to jump quite a bit to make it. I'm going to shoot some 123 SMK Black Hills ammo and test it out, but I'm thinking the 123 Scenar is the best bullet for this chamber for now.

Mark


</div></div>
I agree with you on the chamber choice, Like Arne B we have found the smaller neck and 1.5 degree throat angle to be more accurate than the general purpose Grendel chamber. Nice rig!
 
#33
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M.Gordon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm debating on if I should paint the barrel black or leave it stainless so it can match my hard chrome bolt carrier???

</div></div>

drive over here in akron and get the bbl nitraided....

http://blacknitride.com/

BTW, if you want to offer this to your customers at a discount, talk with Shane at H&M, tell him Russ sent you.. he will hook you up..
 
#34
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

damn you people...I just had to find this thread...I am building my third AR right now and want a 6.5 or a .25....been looking at the 6.5DTI, .25DTI, and the 6.5 grendal...also been toying with the 7.62x40...now I see this and am now back at square one...gee thanks
 
#35
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

Some good info in here, I'm in the process of building a 264 gARP. Can't wait to see how she shoots.
 
#36
Re: My .264 LBC AR !!!!! Pics and experiences

The Grendel has been SAAMI approved now since late 2011. AA would only license it if shops promised to follow the design to the T, so compatibility would remain consistent for customers across the industry.

Another great bullet to try for target shooting is the 108gr Scenar running fast,as it's the same outer profile as the 123gr Scenar. There are also some new Scenar-L projectiles made with an improved manufacturing technique, averaging .3 MOA at 300m for 8-round groups from Lapua's test rifles.

Try CFE powder, which is very similar to Lever, and is giving the best velocities & pressure curves right now.
 
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