PRS Talk My Solution to Prize Table Bias

[Lowlight]

The, "don't eat your own part" is actually quite funny,

Takes courage to say something unpopular with these guys, they attack at the drop of the dime and will sweep things under the rug before the last car leaves the lot.

I have been accused a lot of "dividing" the community, yet they never really look at the situation, just the part they see which usually comes after a bunch of talking that gets ignored out of convenience. Then the shooters start in with the gossip, ignoring the facts, forgetting how things go there, etc. I hear a lot how out of touch we are for pointing out the facts. My favorite is how irrelevant I am in all this,

If I'm irrelevant, and nothing I say matters, why do guys start entire posts and write memes about it? Can't be for just entertainment, I mean again, still nobody wants to acknowledge or explain the rise and growth of the NRL. The first year the PRS guys would say, "Who" now not so much. Clearly, that did not start because of me complaining.

I have pointed this stuff out of since day one, it was never started for the right reasons, and everyone let it continue down the wrong path. When something is good it does not get bought and sold 4x in 5 years.

Thesis,

We let sponsors pick and choose who gets what all the time. We have stages designed for them where the winner gets the prize. We have let on-site sponsors find the guy with the worse rifle and reward him with a new one. I have given prizes throughout the field including the last place like I noted above. If a sponsor is not on site they will leave it up to me to pick a worthy, marketable candidate. We gave LawnMa on here a Barrett MRAD at one match as he deserved a rifle, and Barrett was the title sponsor. In fact last year most of the on hand prizes went to the juniors, the regular guys got cash.

I have given rifles to women before any other match, I have brought in junior by the squad and not to be a complete dick, but there is very little that we did not do before the PRS existed. Rifles Only started this stuff in 1996 to 1998, the pictures are on the wall. We started the Cup in 2003 and have had matches every year since. That is 9 years before the PRS existed.

The funny thing everyone forgets, the day I was asked about the PRS for the very first time, as it started its life through discussion on here. I was in the Shout Box and I said, it should have been free for all until established, and the screams of capitalism came out. Yet they had no product, no matches, they never even approached matches about the early registration, they just assumed. Which is why I refused to help. I saw it a fake reason to put a group between the Shooter and the MD for no reason at all, well there was a reason, to match money because matches sold out in 1 minute. They saw the growth and popularity and said, "how did I get a piece of that too"

Even today after paying off all the partners for the last sale, there is no way to make the money back. Too much was paid by a wide margin, which good on the guys who bought shares, but the current owner, he is probably stuck with it unless someone with deeper pockets takes it. Even then he bought nothing but a name and website with a list of shooters.

The politics of it all sucks, and if you think i am the one responsible for "eating our own" you have a lot of learning to do.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Frank, what do you think the "draw" is for PRS/NRL matches? is it just the ranking system and guys desire 'to be ranked'?

asking because last year a range in north tx hosted a 2 day match, advertised as a prs/field style match...it was only $100 to enter and we shot like 150 rounds...advertised there would be some small prizes and cash payout to the top 3 based on entries...they advertised it for months in advance, we shared it thru all of the txprc facebook pages/etc so it got plenty of exposure....anddddd there was only like 25 shooters who showed up, and 5 of those were myself + 4 other shooters that all planned to attend together when it was announced, the rest were not txprc club match or prs regulars i see at all the other prs matches in tx and around the country...it was a fun match with a good variety of stages, but no one showed

the range was within an hour of the DFW area, basically similar distance to Geordie's Lone star prs matches in the glenrose area that have had 100+ shooters the last couple years...other than the match scores at the end counting towards a ranking, i dont see how 2 matches in the same area can have such different turnouts...is the desire to be ranked just that high?

 

[noisewaterphd]

Frank, what do you think the "draw" is for PRS/NRL matches? is it just the ranking system and guys desire 'to be ranked'?

asking because last year a range in north tx hosted a 2 day match, advertised as a prs/field style match...it was only $100 to enter and we shot like 150 rounds...advertised there would be some small prizes and cash payout to the top 3 based on entries...they advertised it for months in advance, we shared it thru all of the txprc facebook pages/etc so it got plenty of exposure....anddddd there was only like 25 shooters who showed up, and 5 of those were myself + 4 other shooters that all planned to attend together when it was announced, the rest were not txprc club match or prs regulars i see at all the other prs matches in tx and around the country...it was a fun match with a good variety of stages, but no one showed

the range was within an hour of the DFW area, basically similar distance to Geordie's Lone star prs matches in the glenrose area that have had 100+ shooters the last couple years...other than the match scores at the end counting towards a ranking, i dont see how 2 matches in the same area can have such different turnouts...is the desire to be ranked just that high?

I think it is a few things.

Yes, the idea of a "season" is appealing and analogous to other sports. Familiar. It's fun to have the opportunity to advance after bombing a match. And you get to build up to, and earn your way into a finale. So on, and so on.

I think there is something to be said for the name recognition and marketing machine that comes with it. The regional series has really helped spread the idea of PRS as *the* matches to go to.

It provides a single point of reference to find information about all of the matches nationwide. The PRS and NRL sites are where people go to see what matches are coming up, and register for them.

I think that standalone matches can be successful, but you will have to make it a recurring match (annually, monthly, whatever) to build up the recognition to draw sponsors and shooters.

 

[Lowlight]

It's a mix,

Part of the draw is to be ranked, another part is the potential for prizes. If you look at the new electronic matches happening they pay out a lot of money and are getting some good traction. When a guy can walk away with $5k or more people show up. This sport is expensive and many are in over their heads. Just look at the need to chase brass, if they lose one piece they talk about it for a week.

I honestly think there is a certain segment that wants to be labeled, "A PRS/NRL Member" and it has to do with getting that card. If you look at membership vs those who actually compete there is a very big disconnect. (More so on the PRS vs the NRL) More than 3/4 will pay their fee and they are lucky to hit one event. That strikes me as needing to be part of the clique.

The PRS has become an adjective to describe this type of shooting, even if it's not a PRS event, it's still a PRS Style Match and, they started none of this. The branding early on made it sound like if you were not a member you were missing out. It was made to sound like non-members could not shoot the event, which is false. You can shoot any event without being a member of the series. I always hated the idea your match, from a match direction standpoint is second to series. Come Shoot the PRS Match, vs come Shoot the Bushnell Brawl Hosted by Rifles Only, they placed series name first giving the match director who does all the work second billing.

You have to look at where it was shared too, it could be a marketing failure on the part of the match. My matches that have not been associated with a series saw a very little drop in attendance. But we have a track record. Technically speaking I have isolated myself from these guys and still, we have just as many shooters as we want. I no longer have a desire to have big, big matches, I like to hover around 100, and that has not been an issue. They even stacked 3 matches the same weekend as me for the last 3 years and it had a very little effect on my draw. That was a decision to drown me out but the net effect has been 0. Even the Rifles Only match in Oct, had 3 PRS events that same weekend.

When I wrote the letter last year for Jacob, the PRS took their argument to Sniper Magazine and Tom B the editor countered me in a national magazine. He never used my name but he attacked everything I wrote in the letter. So much so, though I never read it, when I saw Tom at Mile High right after, he immediately came up to me to say, it was not about me. In the airport a week later I saw it and read the opinion, it was 100% aimed at me. Why else qualify it to me blind, he was defending his friends in the PRS against the Evil Leprechaun. The goal was to silence the messenger.


The other side is the growth of the local matches. We have more and more with solid attendance and no prizes and no ranking. The cost and convenience matter more, why you see attendance growing. Two years ago, I said the grassroots local matches would win out, and they are.

I honestly think the draw is more about the individual matches and the great work the individual match directors do vs what the series provides. Certain Matches continue to be a bucket list destination which is cool. I think it gets lost in the conversation, but I really do think the individual match directors are what make the series a success, as the series themselves are pretty hands off. ( Here the NRL wins hands down, they do more)

You can't dismiss the desire to say, I shot a PRS Match. There is still national press and TV shows like Shooting USA which highlights the events. That has an impact.

 

[sinister]

There are two-three military sniper matches that darn near always fill to capacity: The Wilson/AFSAM (held as part of the National Guard Championships); the Fort Benning International; and the Fort Bragg (SOF) Invitational. Sometimes big prizes, most often very nice -- none with the HUGE dollars that seem to come with commercial events.

Camp Perry and the national highpower and long-range championships are pure shooting events -- no Tarzan stages. Perhaps a single annual "Sniper" event (unlike the year-long NASCAR, PRS, and USPSA-IPSC circuit) with compulsory classification stages (a la IPSC and the Olympics) could categorize folks into prize divisions? Jerseyed damn-near full-timers gravitate into an elite division, followed by those in striving-pretty good but with full-time day jobs, then all-others who wanna be but don't necessarily have unlimited funds and time?

 

[lte82]

Some really good ideas and discussion here.

1-is precision Rifle a hobby or a sport? Do we as a community want to drive it to become a nationally recognized sport where professionals compete?
.

The fact that the prize table is even relevant at this point should be an indicator of what the current answer is. PRS is still the amateur circle track night, and our version of NASCAR races don't even exist yet. Also, it will never be a sport where you have decently paid pro athletes until the shooters (or owner of the organization) aren't funding the payouts. You need big sponsors both in and outside the industry that give cash to fund teams and the organizations (PRS/NRL/etc), and to get these big sponsors your sport has to marketable to large audiences with potential to sell lots of product. ROI bottom line.

As an example, Budweiser has a $1.4 billion contract with the NFL through 2022. If the PRS could secure even 5% of that in total for the next 5 years to give out as prize money and promotion, say $1 mil up for grabs per year for 6 "pro only" matches, where they pay 25 deep and top place gets like $40k, yea we will see guys quit their day jobs to try it. Imagine if you could get $2 or $3 million a year to give away. But until a significant amount of people can make their living at it, not just the top 1 or 2, then it's going to remain more of a hobby.

So can you effectively market this sport to draw in that kind of money? What's the business model? How are they planning on taking it to the next level? Is it selling tickets to spectators? Pay per view on tv? Ad space? What's the advantage of a sponsor giving the PRS a million bucks vs buying ads on websites, national TV, satellite radio, magazines, etc? Who's out there finding clients for the sport?

 

[Alex126]

I didn't read through all of the posts, so if this has already been mentioned forgive me.

Last fall at the PRS SE Club Finale Paul gave each shooter a raffle ticket at the start of the day. Once the results were in the top guys got some really cool trophies, and raffle tickets were drawn to give out prizes.

A lot of guys who had never won anything (myself included) walked away with some really awesome stuff. I won a chassis that I wound up selling to a guy looking to get into the sport.

I think that method works better for both the shooters and sponsors.

 

[lukejr985]

Like others have said I think most of us compete because we like to test ourselves against our peers, simple as that. All the sponsorship/prize table drama/bs is whats going to sink the ship sooner than later. We're fortunate enough to be playing a game, a really really expensive game if you want it to be, no ones holding a gun to anyones head to shoot 10 matches a year or buy the most expensive gun/rifle/gear combo, I think frank makes a great point about people being over extended, and while its their right to spend their money as they please that doesn't entitle anyone to a prize of any kind in my opinion. Sure i think that a couple high dollar prizes for top three could be provided, but beyond that i don't think that its a necessary evil. You guys really think that if Defiance and Armageddon gear didn't give away product at every match that no one would buy their stuff? I think thats ill founded thinking at best. At the end of the day while I don't agree with everything Frank says on this subject , I applaud him for at least asking questions that aren't being addressed by the organization(s) that we pay money to belong to, that are otherwise deaf, dumb and blind when it comes to deviating from the norm.

 

[epaultmbt]

How about the match directors or the Range / land owners take some of the burden off the companies that support the shooting sports. If you host a 2 day event you will take in $30,000 to $40,000. Maybe some of that could go to the prize table, or paying the RO's (some matches have a history of paying RO's).

None of that match registration money goes to any of the leagues that we all shoot in / belong to, and to my knowledge (and I have quit a bit) only a few sponsors give cash to a league, and that was there choice. The series counted anything they gave to any match at MSRP value as a their total sponsorship. Money well spent in the marketing world.

There's more then a few venders that have made good money because of long range rifle shooting sports, and I know they don't mind putting stuff on the prize table.

The prize table size thing is kind humorous anyway, it's a self licking ice-cream cone. Match directors and range / land owners want big prize tables to fill their matches (full match equals more money), but all the matches are selling out, as long as the MD stick to the proven method. The match director needs to put their ego aside and put together good, fun, and cleanable courses of fire. Then make sure it's worth PRS points. There's several examples of matches that sell out in less then an hour.

Remember the real pro's aren't the guys in the jerseys, they're the match directors, range / land owners, and venders that make the tools needed to play the game.

Let's not get it twisted, it's an entertainment industry....

Thank you venders for supporting the shooting sports. I can't speak for everyone, but it affects where I spend my money when I make a purchase, or when anyone asks me what they should buy.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I could be wrong, but I don't think after expenses, the final number is anywhere close to 30-40k. Can't get blood out of a turnip.

 

[epaultmbt]

You are correct, But when you consider a 2 day range rental and $5000 for the MD to plan and execute there's still lots of wiggle room.

 

[epaultmbt]

All of these elements of our Shooting ecosphere are equally important and necessary.

New Shooters
Proshooters
Match Directors
Range Officers / Safety Officers
League / Series Staff
Social Media Forums
Social Media Staff
Venders

We need everyone to keep the ball rolling, and thinking that any part of this ecosphere can be removed is folly.

Prize table bias.....

As my second biggest shooting critic tells me "Shoot faster and more accurately and you'll win".

The answer unfortunately, is to make more rules. Then reward the people shooting in the more popular divisions of the sport. Smart people are working on this and slowly making the world right. Right now it comes down to about $55 per shooter on LR rifle match prize tables. If you shoot in a division with 10 people then you'll be rewarded based on the level of participation in your division. The trick is making rules that keep everyone shooting and not having to re-chamber and reload for a new cartridge every year, or buy some wiz bang new hotness to be competitive in your chosen division.

We have to remember why we shoot rifles. So first, think about that for a bit. I know guys that shot for their ego, or fun, but remember what these tools are, weapons.



I know why I do it, and when I see these men using "gamer tricks" to shoot faster and more accurately I know that's the reward not the trinkets on the prize table.

Civilian Marksmanship Program, and is absence of leadership we will create our own.

 

[4dds]

I’ll start by saying I’ve only shot 1 local match and there was no prize table. But this whole prize table thing kinda has me baffled. The guys that do the best get rewarded with things that a lot of them already have so they win then pick out what they think they could move the quickest for the most money. I get that they are trying to find their hobby, maybe they picked up that scope because they wanted to try it out but didn’t like it. Then you have the new guys that show up with bare bones equipment that could truly use those prizes to better their equipment and help them improve. I used to truck pull the top 3/5 got cash everyone else went home and worked on their shit to try and do better. The cash when you won still barley covered the night but it was better than nothing. Until there is a pro class where you can keep the new guys from competing against the top level guys the new shooters that show up will be small. I’m pulling we always ran a hometown class anyone could sign up with your everyday driver and give it a whirl. A lot of those guys would win one and next thing you know they are working their way up through the classes. It was a draw to give new guys a chance to try something but it also was a way to get new people to try and hopefully bring them into the sport. The biggest problem I see with prs stuff is it isn’t really a spectators sport. So there isn’t admission and concessions to add to the pot, so now the people shooting are the ones having to support it. I have seen that there is a lot of support from the industry, and that is a great thing. But the only way I see keeping things from being taken from the prize table just to be sold would be cash for the top guys and prizes for the lower guys.

As far as more rules that can be a double edged sword. In pulling we has a “stock” class and a modified class. I ran modified and my brother ran stock. The amount of money spent on the two was pretty equal and by the time we got out of it you couldn’t compete in the stock class without a big pocketbook. Honestly it would have been cheaper to build a modified and not have to deal with the rules that cost you more money to be competitive in the stock class. And because of this the amount of new people entering the sport was dwindling each year, and the guys that had been in it were getting tired of spending more and more every year to stay competitive.

I went to a match. I had seen lots of pics from previous matches and almost talked myself out of it simply due to all the custom guns I seen. I mean should a guy with a factory howa with a 5 round internal mag and a Nikon scope with a plex reticle be able to compete with guys running the full custom high end stuff? No I knew going in I had to make those first 5 count then just do the best I could. I shot 37 of the 76 under time making 21 hits I felt this was good with my equipment. The last stage my squad leader gave me his custom rifle to shoot the stage. It was a lot easier holding wind and shooting than my rifle, but a rifle like that is no where near my budget. I believe making a lower class will help with numbers but you have to keep the money it costs to get in lower then people can have success in the lower classes while gaining knowledge and upgrading equipment to move to the bigger classes.

 

[epaultmbt]

4dds, your completely right.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel:
https://uspsa.org/viewer/Feb_2014_Handgun_Rules.pdf

Division, meaning the type of equipment that is being used.

Class, meaning the skill level of the shooter in said division.

Then we just need power factor so recoil means something again, or next year we'll all be chambering up in 5mm Dasher AI, FML.

 

[littlehendrick]

With my semi-recent move back to the lower 48, it put me in a place where I have been fortunate to shoot at more competitions. So far I have hit one, one day PRS club series match, one PRS 2 day Match, 1x Mammoth Sniper challenge, and 1x Team charity challenge (1 day). On top of that I have RO’ed 3x 2day PRS matches, with one being a charity benefit match. I will be shooting my first 2 day NRL match this weekend in Wyoming, and look forward to seeing the different flavor of NRL vs PRS.

The charity event/PRS match in Alabama had a prize table that was all raffle tickets. RO’s and Shooters got a certain number for entering, but you were able to buy more (with money being donated). So every person had a chance to win the rifle, or 2k binoculars. People seemed to enjoy the prize table, as it was always exciting to see who would win the next item. Very few folks left early that day. At Mammoth, they awarded a rifle for their “red lantern” winner, who was a young shooter who really earned it by his character, not just shooting performance. At some PRS matches, I have started to see sponsors have their award go to shooters that their rifle went down, or needed work. Some of these were by group/shooter nomination of other people. AI has had rifles randomly raffled away twice at CORE. Now my bias is here, as I won one of those rifles, and has been the reason I have been able to start shooting matches. They will sure get the advertisement out of me because I am a sucker for life now.

I know I will never be a top 10 shooter, and that is ok to me. The people at the very top do deserve recognition and something special. They burn up barrels and bullets like none other. What helps offset that the most? I would argue money.

As a not-special shooter, the discount codes make sense to me. As someone getting into the sport/hobby, I have a lot of things I would like to buy. If I can save money on a product, and still get the item I desired, it is a great thing for me, and gets more of the products out into the “wild” for the sponsor. Everyone always seems to be building another gun, or buying parts. Are there going to be discount codes I don’t use?

If the prize table causes so much butthurt, just give money to the top five, and nothing else to anyone. People want to complain, then you only get your shirt, some food, and shooting someone else’s targets for two days.

 

[XTR]

Here is an outside observers perspective.

I shoot F-TR. I travel to a lot of matches, all over the US, and I do it because I like it and I like the competition. I don't have a sponsor and I spend thousands of $$ doing it. I do it because I enjoy it, I work at it because I like to do well, and winning it pretty cool.

In 2015 I won F-TR at the Spirit of America in Raton.
I got some plaques, some medals, and my name on some trophys that live at the range in Raton.

Last yr:
I finished 3rd at the Sinclair East Coast Full Bore Nationals, I got a medal and a certificate for 500 Sierra Bullets (and was damned happy)
I finished 8th in the FC World Championships in Canada last yr. I got a medal. (and was damned stoked)

I think the top 20 Palma shooters at Camp Perry get a pin.

In NRA High Power shooting the biggest prize table in the game is the Berger Nationals in Phoenix. It sold out last yr in under 24 hours. No other match except maybe the sponsored Remington Match at Reade Range sells out like that. To make the point, there are still spots available for the F class nationals at Raton in September.

One thing NRA shooters talk about is the prize table at "precision rifle"* events.

"Precision rifle"* matches pull more shooters and fill faster than any other matches in the rifle shooting game, and I believe it is still growing. F class grew by leaps and bounds for the last 10 yrs but it seems to be setteling down some, unlike other NRA shooting disciplines, except F class, that are all seeing declining participation. The point is that the prize table matters. I don't know enough to say one way or the other what is broken or bent and what needs to be fixed. I do understand the perspective of watching the winner walk away from the prize table with a new NF scope he really doesn't need, or watching the guy who works for Vortex win a NF spotting scope that I know he will never use (though it was fun to give him crap). I don't doubt that there are things that do need to be changed or fixed, it's that way eveyrwhere, but for f*(% sake don't break it.

I have registered this yr as a PRS compeditor in the Tactical class. Looking forward to trying something different.

One thing guys at the top need to remember, there are a lot of guys behind them. I for one would love it if someone just bought my bullets for me every season.

* I don't know what else to call it. I refuse to use "tactical"

 

[morganlamprecht]

One thing guys at the top need to remember, there are a lot of guys behind them. I for one would love it if someone just bought my bullets for me every season.

this part of the big division i see...guys who have their walk at the table every event dont like guys who never sniff it, to tell them how it should work, and at the same time guys who never sniff it, dont like seeing the same guys getting all the goods at every event

i bet if there was a way to do an anonymous poll/suggestions youd get pretty clear divide in answers if you sorted them all by average match finish

 

[redleg1013]

Not to be the nerd, but using the discount codes would lower the vulnerablilty to those that have won something off the table, only to sell it.

If I may relate an anecdote from USPSA: A shooter was into the raffle for $x (for easy numbers let's use $100) and won a modded pistol, bunch of mags, gucci kit and all totalling to roughly $1800. Now given that their cost was $x , anything realized beyond that from sales is considered taxable profit and is to be reported and paid.

How many opportunists have cashed in while not reporting either out of ignorance or spite? The IRS doesn't care any more than a loan shark does, they want their money. (remember the hoopla about catching McGuire's single season home run record ball, or Alex Rodriguez 3000th hit -- one being valued at the million dollar mark).

I believe that the discount code idea is a 360 win, giving the participants a bit of protection from the IRS (sorry, whether you know it or not, and going foreward, now you know) , the sponsors aren't getting inundated (and bottom line robbed) with people with their hands out, and folks are getting what they want at a better price without horse trading.

To those butt-hurt about "participation trophies", don't participate. I'll be honest, I suck, and every one of you, better than me, that doesn't shoot because of this, gives me better odds; at doing better and learning from someone at the match that isn't some priss that can't be bothered by a noob. I'm excited to get a koozie. I like the top three getting trophies and the discount codes, let's face it, they're mostly all sponsored shooters anyway. The factory shooter doesn't gain anything walking away with a competitor company's goods. Like XTR said, I'd be happy just having my bullets paid for.

 

[XTR]

If I recall correctly the Bergers give the top three shooters in each class (F-Open, F-TR, Sling and coat) a pick from the table. I wasn't there this yr, but in the past they gave away a NF Comp scope to the guy who finished last in the top 50%, then everything else was by raffle.

 

[nfoley]

The comment above about 'I'd just like to have my bullets paid for' makes me think there is a perception that the guys wearing jerseys are getting money thrown at them left and right. A lot of guys shooting sponsored and wearing jerseys would like their bullets paid for too.
Most guys shooting these matches are regular guys, and the guys that finish at top practice a lot. Getting a price break on some gear is not what makes them top shooters.
And most shooters that shoot these matches think the prize table is pretty damn cool.

 

[morganlamprecht]

The comment above about 'I'd just like to have my bullets paid for' makes me think there is a perception that the guys wearing jerseys are getting money thrown at them left and right. A lot of guys shooting sponsored and wearing jerseys would like their bullets paid for too.
Most guys shooting these matches are regular guys, and the guys that finish at top practice a lot. Getting a price break on some gear is not what makes them top shooters.
And most shooters that shoot these matches think the prize table is pretty damn cool.

yea, seems to be a pretty large misconception out there...i know how much Matt B won last year (matches and finale cash)...i also know round about what he spent leading up to that in the last few years...

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Here's a solution to prize tables... Don't be a douche, and make being a douche frowned upon.

I can easily see why sponsors get irritated seeing the stuff they put on prize tables up for sale the Monday after a match, that's not the point of the prize table. The point is to give shooters an opportunity to pick up something they need, could use, or want to try out as a reward for doing well.

So don't be a douche, if you don't see anything you need or want then just don't pick anything up. The last match I shot there was nothing I needed when I walked the table, I wasn't going to take anything at all. I remembered a shooter on my squad was shooting a fairly light rifle without a brake that happened to be threaded and between stages we had discussed the self time brakes like the APA's that he could install for matches and run his blind cap for hunting. There were a few APA gen 2 little bastards on the table so I picked one up and walked over handed it to him. It went to someone who needed it.

Lets face it, none of us competing regularly are exactly struggling through life. This is a very expensive sport to shoot and requires a lot of time dedicated between going to the matches. loading ammo, and training. If you can afford $10K+ in equipment, and $1K+ for match fees, lodging, travel, and ammo, then you can afford to walk away from a match empty handed knowing that you had a good time. If you don't have a good time shooting matches then don't register and let someone have that spot who will.

My $.02

 

[nfoley]

Here's just another perspective on your comment redneckboxer.
I get that the sponsors want their products in the hands of the best shooters. But if someone picks up an item and sells it to someone for a discount this is potentially getting another shooter hooked on this sport. And we all know the buying doesn't stop with one barrel, one scope, one chassis, etc when you get hooked in this sport. So, in my mind, any way to get another shooter hooked into this sport and spending hard earned money is a win for sponsors.

 

[XTR]

The comment above about 'I'd just like to have my bullets paid for' makes me think there is a perception that the guys wearing jerseys are getting money thrown at them left and right. A lot of guys shooting sponsored and wearing jerseys would like their bullets paid for too.
Most guys shooting these matches are regular guys, and the guys that finish at top practice a lot. Getting a price break on some gear is not what makes them top shooters.
And most shooters that shoot these matches think the prize table is pretty damn cool.

yea, seems to be a pretty large misconception out there...i know how much Matt B won last year (matches and finale cash)...i also know round about what he spent leading up to that in the last few years...

What is the perception that is incorrect, that the shooter gets some support from the sponsor in the form of reimbursement of entry fees and/or deeply discounted/free merchandise, and possibly travel cost for competition? Getting bullets would be nice but certainly would not justify my travel costs.

If that is not the case then I have a question, why are they wearing the jersey? Maybe it's just me, but I don't wear billboards for free for anyone. I don't wear hats with NF or Vortex, I don't put Berger, Lapua/Sierra/Kreiger/Brux/Bartline stickers on my cases, and I don't wear Harley Davidson or Triumph plastered all over my leathers, and my cycling kit is intentionally devoid of company logos. I'm not on a team and have no desire to look like a poser. I haven't gone as far as one friend who puts black pasters on the logos on his NF scope caps but I've thought about it.

Am I missing something?

I must not have made the point of my previous post clear. My point was that the prize table is important to the popularity of the game.

Obviously winners should be recognized and rewarded. What I don't think I made clear is that I believe that in order to maintain that halo potential competitors need to believe that there is a reasonable chance of winning a quality item from the stash. I think that the "good stuff" at a major match needs to extend to about half of the competitors at a major competition to get that to happen, that way guys who know they have zero chance of a sniff at a podium finish believe they have a shot at some cool swag. The podium finishers need to get something worthwhile too; however, I did point out that in many other shooting disciplines the only thing you get for winning is recognition, and that really is the difference in this discipline and the others, as demonstrated by the example of the Berger SW Nationals in HP shooting.

I know it doesn't offset the cost but it's how people think when they are evaluating dropping $250 or more on an entry fee + travel. I'll leave bullets and reloading off of that because you could burn those in a local match.

Note that I am not saying that nobody will come if you don't have a great swag pile, but you won't sell out in hours, you may not sell out at all, and growth may turn into static or declining numbers.

 

[morganlamprecht]

What is the perception that is incorrect, that the shooter gets some support from the sponsor in the form of reimbursement of entry fees and/or deeply discounted/free merchandise used in competition? Getting bullets would go a long way toward offsetting the costs.

If that is not the case then I have a question, why are they wearing the jersey? Maybe it's just me, but I don't wear billboards for free for anyone. I don't wear hats with NF or Vortex, I don't put Berger, Lapua or Kreiger stickers on my cases, and I don't wear Harley Davidson or Triumph plastered all over my leathers, and my cycling kit is intentionally devoid of company logos. I'm not a team rider and have no desire to look like a poser. I haven't gone as far as one friend who puts black pasters on the logos on his scope caps but I've thought about it.

Am I missing something?

yes, discounts on gear and some components, but lots of them also spend a ton more than the guy who gets no discounts...and yes there are lots of guys wearing jerseys just to fit in...they just throw logos on it from gear they use

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Here's just another perspective on your comment redneckboxer.
I get that the sponsors want their products in the hands of the best shooters. But if someone picks up an item and sells it to someone for a discount this is potentially getting another shooter hooked on this sport. And we all know the buying doesn't stop with one barrel, one scope, one chassis, etc when you get hooked in this sport. So, in my mind, any way to get another shooter hooked into this sport and spending hard earned money is a win for sponsors.

The stuff I've seen listed up, people aren't doing anybody any favors. When you can get a better discount on an optic by calling a vendor or someone is selling a TBAC 100% or 50% off cert to save someone $50 off a 338 Ultra (because everybody buys that can of course and nobody would ever buy a cheaper one) then what's the point? All that's happening is someone is cashing in that prize that they didn't need or want but picked up because it was the most expensive item left on the table when it was there turn.

Instead of doing someone a favor (yourself mostly) by selling a prize, do a fellow shooter at the match a favor and leave it on the table if you don't want it.

FWIW I'm spending over $1500 to go to the MPA match this weekend. If there's nothing on the prize table that I want when it's my turn I won't care if I don't get anything, and I won't get anything if I don't need/want it.

Getting an MPA chassis or a Impact action/cert would be hella sweet though.

 

[nfoley]

XTR, I think it was you that made that comment about "if I could just get my bullets for free..."
Made me think (maybe I'm wrong) that you assumed this would be a relatively minor reimbursement for a sponsored shooter. Getting your bullets for free for guys that shoot a lot would be a HUGE deal.
I just get the feeling from reading some of the posts here that guys think the jersey wearing sponsored shooters are a bunch of entitled assholes with money being thrown at them at every turn. It's just not accurate.
As far as the jersey/hat wearing question - maybe you don't wear NF/Vortex hats but there are PLENTY of guys that wear shirts/hats/jackets/patches just because they like the gear. Most guys don't have the attitude "I ain't wearing anything with your name on it unless you're paying me back in some way."

 

[Fig]

I shudder to think of what I would do for my corporate overlords (none at present) if they would supply me with shot and powder.
Things a man shouldn't do...

 

[XTR]

XTR, I think it was you that made that comment about "if I could just get my bullets for free..."
Made me think (maybe I'm wrong) that you assumed this would be a relatively minor reimbursement for a sponsored shooter. Getting your bullets for free for guys that shoot a lot would be a HUGE deal.

I get that. I typically spend in the range of $2000 a yr on bullets . I'd rather have a bullet deal than a scope deal, long term it would be worth more to me. Nothing other than travel costs me more than bullets.

I get that a lot of guys like to wear logos, just walk though any mall and look at the Nike, Under Armor, Harley Davidson, [insert brand here], etc... I buy Carhart hoodies becaue they are the only ones I can find with out the company logo plastered on the front. I realize I am not like most people in that regard (among others).

 

[nfoley]

^^^ Me too! Would love to have bullets paid for! Bullets and barrels and I would shoot more!

 

[redneckbmxer24]

^^^ Me too! Would love to have bullets paid for! Bullets and barrels and I would shoot more!

Welcome to the club along with everyone else who has ever pulled a trigger.

Make sure you keep some rust inhibitor in that bore if you’re waiting for handouts before you go out to shoot.

 

[stevenc23]

How about creating divisions based on “buy ins”. Have a standard match fee that allows anyone to shoot the match. If someone wants to shoot in the “pro division” they pay an additional entry fee. All “pro division” entry fees and a small portion of the general match fees are then paid out to top pro finishers. Similar to poker tournaments. Top ten percent of pro shooters get pay outs of decreasing percentage. You could potentially get some BIG payouts to attract top shooters. For the non pro shooters, they would receive the discount codes that Frank suggested.

This would potentially lower match fees for the “hobby shooters”and make it easier and less intimidating for newer shooters. It would help grow the sport and let the average shooters who only want to shoot one big match a year see how they stack up against the best shooters in the country.

 

[britneymadz]

It's sad that this ENTIRE thread comes down to one thing: being a decent human being. If there's something you don't need on the prize table, either don't take it or give it to one of the shooters who needs better gear. A friend of mine shot a competition about 2 months ago and made the top 10. When he walked the prize table there was a TON of stuff up there to choose from. He ended up choosing a spotting scope. Why? Because he needed a spotting scope. I ended up using it to RO a match he put on few weeks ago. He didn't choose any of the high dollar scopes to try and turn a profit, he took something he could use, even if it was worth a lot less. I get that this is an insanely expensive sport to play (I hear it from my wife all the time when I talk about shooting), but there should be more to this sport than getting monetary compensation out of it.

I like Frank's idea of the codes because it allows you to buy things you NEED as opposed to winning things you can SELL. I'm not saying EVERY prize should be a code, but it would definitely help. I have no use for a chassis for a Remington 700, so it would do little good to win one but I could damn sure use a discount code for 30% off a Ruger Precision Rifle barrel.

At the end of the day, I shoot because I love shooting, not because I'm trying to win something. Would I love to win some stuff at a competition? Yeah, that would be awesome. But if that becomes the ENTIRE reason I'm doing it, then it's time to find a new hobby because at that point I've turned it into a job.

 

[Subwrx300]

I'd be all for getting coupons/discounts at any match, especially for consumables. Namely, bullets brass, primers, etc. If you could get shooters a 20-50% discount on their flavor of bullets, brass and such, holy crap! I'd be bulk buying like crazy!

There is likely always going to be a Top 1 through X style table of some sort and if i don't shoot perfectly for the match, I'm still able to recoup a ton of savings towards my practice. You could even include discounts for the upcoming match fees or attending the same match the following year.

All in all, I think the idea has merit. I'm sure there will be more refinement of the concept before put into practice but there's no reason this wouldn't be viewed as positive by the 90% of the guys that walk away with ZERO in a normal match.

Keep doing the standard table for the top x percent of attendees, but damn would I love to pay .30cents a round for a bucket of 140 VLDs or other Berger. Or 20 cents for a bucket of 140ELDMs.

Any discount on consumables is a real gain that ALL SHOOTERS will benefit from regardless of their skill level. Just my two cents.

 

[delfuego]

Discount code will definitely solve this "problem"

Sounds like most people complaining about prize tables have never actually seen one as a competitor. When I started, I was happy to get a hat or box of bullets. After lots of participation and practice, I sometimes pull a cool prize, usual something I need or want. #1 rule of going to the prize table is don't take something that will cost you more money, like a discount coupon.

Seem like a lot of people want a participation ribbon. You probably got one, it's the match t-shirt. If you are good, you might get orange slices and Capri Sun too...

 

[silhouette]

I competed in my first sponsored match last year. There were 50 competitors and I was stoked to come 8th.
At presentations they called up the first 7 and then decided to have 25 random draws. While I do appreciate going away with something, I couldn't help but feel a bit robbed when 25 lower scorers recieved greater rewards.
The discount thing is a great idea, but I think it should be a reflection of achievement.
I know it's impossible to keep everyone happy and I don't have the answer, but that's my 2c.

 

[silhouette]

I'd be all for getting coupons/discounts at any match, especially for consumables. Namely, bullets brass, primers, etc. If you could get shooters a 20-50% discount on their flavor of bullets, brass and such, holy crap! I'd be bulk buying like crazy!

There is likely always going to be a Top 1 through X style table of some sort and if i don't shoot perfectly for the match, I'm still able to recoup a ton of savings towards my practice. You could even include discounts for the upcoming match fees or attending the same match the following year.

All in all, I think the idea has merit. I'm sure there will be more refinement of the concept before put into practice but there's no reason this wouldn't be viewed as positive by the 90% of the guys that walk away with ZERO in a normal match.

Keep doing the standard table for the top x percent of attendees, but damn would I love to pay .30cents a round for a bucket of 140 VLDs or other Berger. Or 20 cents for a bucket of 140ELDMs.

Any discount on consumables is a real gain that ALL SHOOTERS will benefit from regardless of their skill level. Just my two cents.

^^this^^.
I would grab an open voucher/coupon for consumables or in store credit rather than take one for 30% (or whatever) off a specific product where I have to spend more money to make use of it.

 

[Subwrx300]

Discount code will definitely solve this "problem"

View attachment 6896069

Don't quite understand if you are for or against idea of codes feom your reply.

I'm sure their will be people trying to sell codes/discounts for cash (as above) but to Frank's point, it doesn't hurt the manufacturer nearly as much as giving away a product and for free AND losing the second sale from the guy that wouls have bought the same product elsewhere.

I'd be less inclined to "buy" a discount code than an actual product. I wouldnt want to chance the code turns out to be fake/invalid.

Doesn't have to be an either or choice though. Mix the two concepts, keep the costs lower to sponsors, let guys across the field get something of value and keep recognition for the top shooters creates a win-win-win scenario.

 

[LawnMM]

I have been participating in this stuff going on tens years now, still love it. Don't love some of the materialism that's emerged.

I won a $6000 MRAD at my second Hide Cup, second match ever. Frank and this sport don't owe me shit. I'll be working to pay that moment forward forever.

I've had people tell me to sell that rifle for cash or something more usable in the matches. Screw that, it was one of the coolest moments of my life. I'm keeping that thing forever.

The next year a guy on my squad won an AI AT... awesome moment for him. I think in part because it wasn't expected. We knew we were nowhere near the top of the pack.

I've said this before and will continue to repeat it. We get rid of the gamesmanship, cheating, douchebaggery in general by removing the draw.

Let the top 3 and the class leaders walk the table, everything has a number on it, after they're done, ROs, whatever... random draw the rest. Think about creating the kind of moment I described for 50-100 shooters at every match.

If you made top 3 you get your pick, beyond that let's lift the little guy up. I'm there to see how I do against people better than me, anything else is gravy. That's what we're losing sight of. All your fee entitles you to is a fun weekend of shooting.

 

[silhouette]

I have been participating in this stuff going on tens years now, still love it. Don't love some of the materialism that's emerged.

I won a $6000 MRAD at my second Hide Cup, second match ever. Frank and this sport don't owe me shit. I'll be working to pay that moment forward forever.

I've had people tell me to sell that rifle for cash or something more usable in the matches. Screw that, it was one of the coolest moments of my life. I'm keeping that thing forever.

The next year a guy on my squad won an AI AT... awesome moment for him. I think in part because it wasn't expected. We knew we were nowhere near the top of the pack.

I've said this before and will continue to repeat it. We get rid of the gamesmanship, cheating, douchebaggery in general by removing the draw.

Let the top 3 and the class leaders walk the table, everything has a number on it, after they're done, ROs, whatever... random draw the rest. Think about creating the kind of moment I described for 50-100 shooters at every match.

If you made top 3 you get your pick, beyond that let's lift the little guy up. I'm there to see how I do against people better than me, anything else is gravy. That's what we're losing sight of. All your fee entitles you to is a fun weekend of shooting.

What you've said has merit, but I don't totally agree. People will still be "gaming" regardless to try and get into the top 3, and by your theory, if you come 4th, you may as well come last. As you would know, shooting these matches aren't cheap and people want to be rewarded for their efforts. Random draws suck. Why bother firing a single shot if it's just a raffle?

 

[LawnMM]

What you've said has merit, but I don't totally agree. People will still be "gaming" regardless to try and get into the top 3, and by your theory, if you come 4th, you may as well come last. As you would know, shooting these matches aren't cheap and people want to be rewarded for their efforts. Random draws suck. Why bother firing a single shot if it's just a raffle?

Because, in theory, you enjoy shooting and it's about more than a prize for you. If you want to see how you stack up then you shoot the match like everyone else.

You'll still have people clawing to make the top 3, 5, 10, whatever...but by limiting the slots allowed to 'walk the table' you limit the bullshit.

Now only the guys in the real hunt for the win have a shot at grabbing whatever. You don't have 40th place giving shit wind calls to the new shooter who's going to wind up in 87th place so he's got a better shot at a rangefinder instead of a data book.

The matches aren't cheap, I went to three NRL matches last year. It's expensive. I do it because I like shooting and I've got a solid group I shoot with. Not to be "rewarded" for my participation. That's the wrong attitude. Your ticket tonthe match is passage to shoot on the property, that's it.

We had a new guy with us in NM at the NMLRS, his first match ever. It was set up like the steel safari with blind stages and everything done on the clock. Horrible match to try first time out, it was tough the first day especially.

I think he had maybe six hits the whole first day. He stuck with it, did better day two, was proud he did better than dead last. That's the right attitude. He wants to shoot more matches.

 

[littlehendrick]

What you've said has merit, but I don't totally agree. People will still be "gaming" regardless to try and get into the top 3, and by your theory, if you come 4th, you may as well come last. As you would know, shooting these matches aren't cheap and people want to be rewarded for their efforts. Random draws suck. Why bother firing a single shot if it's just a raffle?

Because the people that are really competing are also trying to qualify for the finale of whatever series they play in. Maybe make the final match a table that is walked in order of finish.

 

[trauma1]

I like the idea, especially if there might be a few random drawings. However, I do have a question. How many MD’s run matches to make a profit? If there are 100 shooters with a $250 entry fee, we’re talking about 25k in revenue. So being the devils advocate, and the MD wants to profit, why is it wrong for the

shooters to want to win a prize? Again I have no skin in the game. Just asking reasonable questions and trying to understand. Seems the best solution would be no sponsorship for shooters.

That is not always the case. Look at the Steel City Precision matches. All the proceeds go to Sniper Associations ( Marine Sniper Association & Army Sniper Association)

 

[silhouette]

Because, in theory, you enjoy shooting and it's about more than a prize for you. If you want to see how you stack up then you shoot the match like everyone else.

You'll still have people clawing to make the top 3, 5, 10, whatever...but by limiting the slots allowed to 'walk the table' you limit the bullshit.

Now only the guys in the real hunt for the win have a shot at grabbing whatever. You don't have 40th place giving shit wind calls to the new shooter who's going to wind up in 87th place so he's got a better shot at a rangefinder instead of a data book.

The matches aren't cheap, I went to three NRL matches last year. It's expensive. I do it because I like shooting and I've got a solid group I shoot with. Not to be "rewarded" for my participation. That's the wrong attitude. Your ticket tonthe match is passage to shoot on the property, that's it.

We had a new guy with us in NM at the NMLRS, his first match ever. It was set up like the steel safari with blind stages and everything done on the clock. Horrible match to try first time out, it was tough the first day especially.

I think he had maybe six hits the whole first day. He stuck with it, did better day two, was proud he did better than dead last. That's the right attitude. He wants to shoot more matches.

"Rewarded for acheivement" rather than rewarded for participation was more so my point.
I also do it for the love of shooting, we have a club level match every month and rarely do I miss one. There are no prizes whatsoever and therefore costs $8 to enter.
$250 entry fee seems a lot to just "see how I go".

 

[djarecke]

That is not always the case. Look at the Steel City Precision matches. All the proceeds go to Sniper Associations ( Marine Sniper Association & Army Sniper Association)

...and the Lone Survivor match.

 

[LawnMM]

"Rewarded for acheivement" rather than rewarded for participation was more so my point.
I also do it for the love of shooting, we have a club level match every month and rarely do I miss one. There are no prizes whatsoever and therefore costs $8 to enter.
$250 entry fee seems a lot to just "see how I go".

You're being overly dramatic. It's $250 to do what you love and have a 1:125 or so shot at a rifle or a scope or maybe just the coozy. You won't know if you don't show up.

If top 3 is too strict do top ten, I'm okay with that. If you don't make top ten you get a prize by random drawing, or walk the table in random order. Whatever.

You'll still have way better odds than Vegas. Sponsors might actually get more emails from the little guy who wins the big prize and it becomes a real moment for them. You can bet your ass I emailed BARRETT.

 

[countChocula]

Newcomer perspective:

The draw of practical/tactical long range shooting sports is the competition and opportunity to test yourself and measure your performance against others. I didn't find out that matches have prize tables involved until months after I found out about the existence of PRS/NRL, and club level equivalents, and it didn't change my enthusiasm one bit after I did find out. Maybe my view is clouded based on my background in college athletics in a sport that -- just like all shooting sports -- is a money pit for all but the people at the very highest level.

As soon as it becomes common place to have people show up to matches with a sense of entitlement, the expectation that there will be more than pride on the line, you begin to lose the integrity of the sport. You start to get gaming, whining, and poor sportsmanship (I've seen mention of shooters giving new shooters purposefully incorrect win calls, which I really hope is an isolated occurrence). Growth of the sport comes from the low levels, not from the upper echelon; you need to attract new, amateur shooters more than you need to appease the existing pros. If the sport stagnates, it doesn't matter how well the top shooters are shooting, sponsors will pull out and the sport will die out. Frankly, as someone just getting started, the deterrent of potentially competing with bad-faith competitors is a more powerful force than the draw of a potential prize at the end of the day. The kind of people who are drawn by a prize table are not the kind of people I want to be shooting with.

If you want to maximize the happiness of the top shooters, by all means, keep the prize table bountiful and the politics that come with that. If you want to improve the health of the sport and grow the community, leave the big prize tables for invite only, performance based season finales (both regional and national), and drop the price of club matches to make it more accessible for amateurs (admittedly, I do not know how feasible this is). Any prize tables at the club level could be run as Chinese Auctions, maybe with a baseline number of tickets for every competitor and a few bonus tickets based on your finish position so winners get at least a small reward. This would incentivise people to "bet" their raffle tickets on the items they need most rather than the most expensive items, since everyone will be putting tickets on that. If everyone wants to gamble on that $1k scope, I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will be happy scooping up several cheaper prizes!

 

[MilDot1960]

Frank !

Back when I first started shooting in Comps I won a couple of medals using a $450 rifle, I thought I had lost them and thought that I had thrown them out with the trash when I had a big clean up, Glad to say that I found them last week and they still mean as much Today as they did on the day I Won them 24/25 years ago, I don't know what they cost the Club but the fact I out shot folks using 2k and 10K Rifles and I have the medals to prove it, And those Medals are historic proof and can't be sold on to make a Sly Buck on the side,

All the back biting of some of these folks is worthless Dribble, Medals and Cups etc say more about the shooter than 10,000 prizes, Yes an end of the year Prize would be of Value but not at every match which is why people are selling them on, It's just too easy for them to exploit the Sportsmanship of the shooting community

Personally I would hand out medals at the end of the month to allow time for them to be engraved and Cups at the end of the year along with a yearly Prize giving event, Not handing out prizes every week, This is about Shooting not making a fast Buck. and what ever you decide I am sure it will be an honourable thing.

John.

 

[kthomas]

"Rewarded for acheivement" rather than rewarded for participation was more so my point.
I also do it for the love of shooting, we have a club level match every month and rarely do I miss one. There are no prizes whatsoever and therefore costs $8 to enter.
$250 entry fee seems a lot to just "see how I go".

Then don't go. Stay at your local matches.

I shoot big matches because I enjoy the challenge. I couldn't care less about the prize table - I usually leave before the award ceremony begins.

I've won some cool things, one being a Falkor Defense Ar15 complete with a Sig red dot sight. That's now my Wife's favorite rifle - it was a really cool award. But I don't show up for awards. For me it is about challenging myself and improving as a shooter, and making friends along the way. Nothing more, nothing less. I would shoot just as many if there was zero prizes awarded. Its very odd that many people feel that the main or a big draw to shooting these matches is the prize table. That's ass backwards to me.

 

[MilDot1960]

Newcomer perspective:

The draw of practical/tactical long range shooting sports is the competition and opportunity to test yourself and measure your performance against others. I didn't find out that matches have prize tables involved until months after I found out about the existence of PRS/NRL, and club level equivalents, and it didn't change my enthusiasm one bit after I did find out. Maybe my view is clouded based on my background in college athletics in a sport that -- just like all shooting sports -- is a money pit for all but the people at the very highest level.

As soon as it becomes common place to have people show up to matches with a sense of entitlement, the expectation that there will be more than pride on the line, you begin to lose the integrity of the sport. You start to get gaming, whining, and poor sportsmanship (I've seen mention of shooters giving new shooters purposefully incorrect win calls, which I really hope is an isolated occurrence). Growth of the sport comes from the low levels, not from the upper echelon; you need to attract new, amateur shooters more than you need to appease the existing pros. If the sport stagnates, it doesn't matter how well the top shooters are shooting, sponsors will pull out and the sport will die out. Frankly, as someone just getting started, the deterrent of potentially competing with bad-faith competitors is a more powerful force than the draw of a potential prize at the end of the day. The kind of people who are drawn by a prize table are not the kind of people I want to be shooting with.

If you want to maximize the happiness of the top shooters, by all means, keep the prize table bountiful and the politics that come with that. If you want to improve the health of the sport and grow the community, leave the big prize tables for invite only, performance based season finales (both regional and national), and drop the price of club matches to make it more accessible for amateurs (admittedly, I do not know how feasible this is). Any prize tables at the club level could be run as Chinese Auctions, maybe with a baseline number of tickets for every competitor and a few bonus tickets based on your finish position so winners get at least a small reward. This would incentivise people to "bet" their raffle tickets on the items they need most rather than the most expensive items, since everyone will be putting tickets on that. If everyone wants to gamble on that $1k scope, I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will be happy scooping up several cheaper prizes!

I agree totally, Keep Shooting for Shooters and not as a place for people to make a fast buck, I want to shoot against people who as passionate about the sport as Me, When it comes to shooting against people with less than Sportsman type attitudes I go all out to make sure they hit the showers early in the piece.