PRS Talk My Solution to Prize Table Bias

[hlee]

The “I have to get a prize in order to compete” is just the sort of millennial thinking that makes me what to puke. Travel, ammunition, meals and lodging, match fees, home range fees, etc are all expensive. I get it. But, whether you win or lose, the only thing your match fees entitle you to is shooting the match. “But, I traveled from all the way across the country...” So what. You traveled to shoot, not to win a prize. As any accountant can tell you, you can make more money by staying home than you can by winning a prize at a rifle match. If you are going for the prizes, “Bye Felicia...”

My wife teaches middle school- coaches the girls sports- and there is more drama and whining in this thread than in all of her teams, combined. No wonder the shootings sports are dying. No one wants to hang out with one whiney entitled bitch. I damned sure don’t want to hang out with a platoon of entitled dudes. Sure, most of the guys on the line are probably great, but it only takes one rat turd in the Cheerios to ruin the whole bowl.

I’d say raffle all of the prizes on the table. But, award raffle tickets based on standing. Everyone has a shot at the prizes, but those that placed better have a better shot. Anyone that doesn’t like it can leave early or not enter. Fuck them.

 

[silhouette]

But, award raffle tickets based on standing. Everyone has a shot at the prizes, but those that placed better have a better shot.

Exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Cheers.

 

[delfuego]

The “I have to get a prize in order to compete” is just the sort of millennial thinking that makes me what to puke.

It is quite the opposite. Sounds more like people wanting a prize for coming in DFL to me. Bunch of people who don't actually compete in PRS or NRL national matches bitching about the prizes actual competitors receive. All the people that want a raffle know they have no chance at winning a rifle and think the odds are with them to get one in a raffle. That is the rub, that is the participation ribbon.

This thread is just a continuation of Frank bitching about one shithead. If you have no "skin in the game" you don't deserve an opinion. I keep hearing about the guys who wear jerseys and their poor behavior. I think people should shoot more and bitch less. You don't like, stay home. The only change I think is warranted is that the top shooters should get trophies and cash. The prize table can go to the rest of the field. Companies should pay their sponsored athletes, just like other sports. You use these athletes to promote your company but don't pay them and sometimes renege on the promises you made to them (looking at you Surgeon rifles).

 

[Lowlight]

I am getting a lot more response to this from companies and they like it better. I got off the phone this AM and the idea was well received.

It's not one guy, it's companies giving prizes to more matches than they actually can afford number 1, then number 2, it's competitors calling up the companies (After a lot of matches) and asking for the cash equivalent of the prize, in other words, they try returning it for the money. That and the companies don't like seeing it for sale. IF they give out a prize they want it used. If they give out a prize to a top competitor they want that competitor seen with it, that is their mindset. When that guy sells it, it's losing it value and the impact.

I have offers for 25% to 45% on average for this, and these will go to every shooter. On top of that, they are asking for creative ways to highlight any prize they do donate. In short, they don't want them going to the top guys anymore.

It's not a continuation of me bitching, it's the fact the companies reach out to me weekly and relay this information back to me for the express purpose of changing how things are done.

When the NRL Started a big focus was the companies that came with them, LRI, Kelbly, etc, they hated how they were treated in the PRS. They gave as much as the next guy and got nothing in return. No promotion, very little mention, etc, because they were not the Clique guys. So they left.

For companies to pay they have to make money, a lot of these guys are being hit up for $50,000 for a season, that means they need 3x that in return to make it work. They are all upside down on this.

The clue is I actually speak candidly to them, unlike the competitors who are not. the idea it is one guy is comical, it's a group effort.

 

[Dag34]

This can be a heated discussion between us but in the end it is up to the sponsors. They need to look at their business models and see what works or does not. No where is it stated prizes are mandatory.

I think a more important issue is match fees. I have been to quit a few matches that were run poorly and feel that the competitors were an after thought. Some C level facilities with very little experience want to charge the same price as A level facilities with decades of experience. How a match director runs a match is more important than the prize table. There are 2 matches that I almost refuse to attend because the fees are high and the match is run poorly.

Overall, I am beginning to become frustrated and irritated with the whole precision rifle world there are many, many issues that are pushing me away and what is on the prize table is very low on the list.

 

[...]

If you are competing for "prizes"....rather than the pride of winning.....youre a little bitch.

ive been shooting NRA matches for years....ive won hats, mugs, pins, ect......but nothing i really honestly care about.....

what they should do is have a prize table....make it a raffle.....but only raffle stuff off to Junior shooters under 18yrs old.......or at the very least give junior shooters 2 tickets and everyone else 1.

winning shit doesnt mean much to any of us, we all have jobs, we can buy this shit...but to a kid whos trying to decide between shooting another match, or staying home and play video games, winning a nice new scope or other piece of gear is a hell of a motivation to return and stay in the sport.

 

[Joe G]

I dont compete, but was just following the thread because the barrel horse racers have a pretty good way of making it advantageous to every one involved including the sponsors.

This could easily be customized for shooting.

They take the fastest time (highest score) and then pay out the top 3 places in the first division. Then they add a second to that time and pay out the top 3 places for the second division. Then add another second and pay (3D) and then another second and pay (4D).

This makes it possible for everyone to compete and keeps it interesting all the way until the last person has their run. Of course you still have those who spend the most money and who put in the most training and time who are always at the top, but you could have the 4th highest score and not get any prize ( falling through the cracks). The person who Is just starting out or a kid could have a much lower score and still have a chance at a great prize inn the The lower divisions. It encourages everyone to do their very best because you never know where you place until the last person competes. You could just as easily be knocked out of the 1d prize as you could the 4d prize depending on the last run.

 

[davere]

Barrel racing scoring sounds similar to Lewis system scoring that's used by GSSF.

 

[Jasonlikes2shoot]

I'm completely new to the sport (and the site), but not to competitions or growing businesses/organizations. If I'm out of line or have no place to talk here, I apologize and mods please remove my post.

I've always identified all the problems first before offering solutions because if you try to solve one issue, the solution might make another problem worse and negate the implemented solution altogether.

From what I read, it seems there are a few different problems that affect different components of PRS.: Shooters, Sponsors, and the size of PRS as a sport/competition.

As somebody just getting into PRS, shooting against pros is exciting because I'll be learning from them, but I don't think I should compete with them at my level. To me, I look at matches as ways to learn, grow my skills and gauge myself against pros so I know how much more I can improve. To others, competing with pros discourages them enough that they won't even try. If they don't even try, PRS doesn't grow and everybody suffers - shooters, sponsors, everybody.

Having different levels based on skill/experience/age might encourage more shooters to join. Each level would also have their own motivations and would help sponsors and match officials determine "prizes." If a sponsored pro can only use specific gear, obviously providing gear for them doesn't make sense. Maybe pros want cash; maybe they just want to win. Some people have mentioned that giving gear as prizes makes sense to intermediate shooters. Those are the people that a new optic, barrel, suppressor might provide the gear they've been saving up for to be a better shooter and squeeze a little more accuracy from their setup. If I won a competition and the prize was a new NF optic, I'd be excited about winning, but not so much for the optic. I'd sell it and use the money for ammo because shooting ammo will improve my skills more than a new optic. I'm new though, so what do I know?

If there are different levels according to skill, it would be exciting to level up and shoot against better competitors. Even if you aren't winning, you're improving by competing against better players. Anybody get on varsity as a freshman or sophomore in high school?

It's easy to find out what their motivations are by the turnout, but when in doubt, ask. Send a survey to the competitors and ask them. Give them some options to choose instead of open ended questions otherwise you'll get some inappropriate albeit hilarious answers. Or maybe that's just how I would answer?

I only buy t-shirts when I travel to other countries and at events like concerts, races, competitions, music festivals, etc... I like knowing that I have something nobody else will have unless they were there, and shirts have started conversations with strangers whether I initiated them or they did. Sometimes the conversation is about both of us having been there, or one person wanting to go. My point is that a "prize" doesn't have to be a $2000 optic for it to be meaningful. People have come up to ask about Spartan races because I was wearing a shirt from a race. I've seen people with blood running down their legs from a fall limping across a Tough Mudder finish line just because they wanted the sweatband and shirt. Prizes don't have to be shiny and expensive. Not everybody needs a trophy. If something is provided to all competitors, it should help grow PRS. But I still want a shirt.

Coupon codes don't always hurt the retailers. Manufacturers give retailers coupons all the time - just go to the grocery store and look at the coupons. Hornady could work with Midway on a coupon code for an event, so the retailer, manufacturer and shooters all benefit, just as an example.

I've sponsored events and paid up to $40k for sponsorships. Tracking ROI has always been difficult, but digital marketing makes things a LOT easier. Lowlight had a great idea with the coupon codes because it does make it easier, but so do URLs with UTM codes given to the event coordinator to use on the competition's site instead of normal URLs. That would be the first thing I would do! All the links from the PRS site are normal links so the only way sponsors will know that traffic is coming through the site is through their analytics - since they aren't using UTM codes, I doubt they're even looking at their analytics. There are so many different ways to do it though. Having logos on banners, sponsor tents, "prizes," physical products for competitors to see, touch and feel are all advertising - nothing more. Sometimes advertising works. Sometimes it doesn't. It's all part of doing business. Not only do the sponsors need to take responsibility for this, but the match coordinators should help with it too - and I think that's what Lowlight is trying to do.

I spent $10k sponsoring an event and didn't see the ROI I wanted, but I saw opportunities to sponsor the same event in a different way because the people attending were the right demographic. I worked with the event coordinators to get what I wanted, gave them some ideas for other sponsors and doubled my sponsorship the next year. Then I saw the ROI I wanted, so I doubled my sponsorship the year after that. Tracking ROI is on the sponsor and even the event coordinators, but not the sport itself.

If event coordinators want to bring more sponsors, hard data needs to be presented about the potential ROI, sponsorship opportunities, and demographic data. The most important thing is the matches need to be successful. Think out of the box when it comes to sponsors. Why not get a restaurant or hotel to be a sponsor? Some competitors need a place to stay but everybody needs to eat. Hell, why not sell spectator tickets to people that want to see a match and offer a discount for the next match fee or PRS membership? If the #1 shooter is coming to the match, advertise that! Sell the tickets at sporting goods stores, through here, and let bloggers promote them. Bring some awareness to the sport and make people realize that hitting a target at 1000 yards is feasible without being Bob Lee Swagger.

I don't think I gave any solutions because I don't have all the info, but I'm hoping I at least helped a little. I rambled on enough and look forward to shooting and learning from you all.

 

[Robert Giovino]

So, I mentioned this on my podcast, and I have been hesitant to mention it out loud until it was 100% in place. Since that podcast mention, I have received at least a 1/2 dozen calls and messages about my solution as I did not spell it out.

The real test of whether this sport is about is about the group or the individual, will be the reaction.

So, how do we solve this idea of Prize Table Bias, and by bias, I mean balancing the reward for attending a precision rifle match? Many feel it is front-loaded, and other feel they attend more matches or they belong to Series so they deserve something a casual attendee does not. Their investment in the Series is higher is how they rationale it.

I will reward the Top 3 shooters in an event, and then everyone after that will get a series of discount codes.

If the sponsors of an event enable a series of discount codes for the matches they sponsor both sides win. The sponsor is not out of pocket for all the matches that request prizes or sponsors and ALL THE SHOOTER WIN.

If a sponsor gives a match an Item, that Item can be used, or sold, in some cases, it might it used but never seen again. Think of the case a shooter sponsors by Vortex who pulls a Nightforce off a prize table. He will not attend the next match with an NF because he is sponsored by Vortex. He probably took the NF off the table because it's expensive. While he may keep it, he may also want to sell it to fund his hobby. Prizes should not really be there to fund your hobby, that is not the purpose and was never the intent. Companies actually frown on seeing their donation posted for sale, it gets mentioned a ton. Win it on Sunday and Sell it online Monday is supported by no company.

Moving to discount codes across the majority of the events will streamline the process on so many levels. Print the codes out and hand them to every shooter after the match, now you are not waiting for Jersey Johnny to pick his prize, that part if finished. You can leave much sooner, reward the Top 3 of each segment and you are done. The Prize table crawl is gone, you're home an hour earlier.

The discount codes support the sponsors, they only work if you buy from them. They can afford to sponsor more events, minus the $50,000 buy in to sponsor a Series Season. It saves the shooter a lot of money and makes the sponsors some money in return.

Of course, the more generous the discount, the more popular the sponsor will be, but in many cases, it still won't hurt their bottom line.

Request a Specialized Discount Code and now you can track sales and reach. You have a metric to work with.

4th Place gets the same level of respect as 104th place. 4th and 104th Place takeaway the same amount of opportunity for attending your match.

Less money for shipping, less coordination for the Match Director, in total it's less work for everybody, it's faster, with a bigger return on investment.

They can share the codes socially, they can be time-limited, X Code from Sponsor A works for 3 months after the match, works for 6 months after the match, etc. If they get shared online it's a win, win, more business, and greater opportunity. Think about the Midway Discount Codes, we used to have threads just about the most recent code. More codes mean keeping both business and shooting moving forward.

You can supplement the table with certain products, and they will mean more. If there are only 10 prizes, that gives those more value. But everyone loves a discount code.

So, that is my solution .... feel free to discuss.

I think it worked out great bud! We are there to shoot and test our ability and push our selves. I think some shooters have lost sight of that. By running the matches this way it will take the Focus off the prizes and concentrate more on shooting in competing. Looking forward to next year RTC matches with you guys.