Not sure that a scope failing under use with a braked lightweight magnum is quality control - it's more of a design issue. I've read of Leupolds failing on the same type of rifle, and under $1000 there are very few scopes that I think would hold up - the SWFA SS line comes to mind, maybe the Bushnell Elite Tactical models, maybe the Burris XTR and Diamond series.
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Rifle Scopes My Vortex 6x24x50 PST... You fellows need to know..
- Thread starter Aimsmall55
- Start date
Not sure that a scope failing under use with a braked lightweight magnum is quality control - it's more of a design issue. I've read of Leupolds failing on the same type of rifle, and under $1000 there are very few scopes that I think would hold up - the SWFA SS line comes to mind, maybe the Bushnell Elite Tactical models, maybe the Burris XTR and Diamond series.
Well....A 300 dollar SWFA SS fixed 10x scope will hold up to the big magnums. I was turned on to the Viper PST with all the badass features, but I decided to bite the bullet for the RAZOR HD. I saw one in person and it seems really stout.
I just learned the hard way about building a 1500-2000 dollar rifle and having a medicore 300-400 dollar scope was just no bueno. I REALLY like the new SWFA variable power scopes, and my zero is dead nuts. I guess I figured I got a fairly decent 3-15 power for 700 bucks, and it seems pointless for me to get a Vortex for that same price range. That's what made me go with the Razor HD. I just started hearing REALLY good reports after the new Ocular eyepiece upgrade and with 10 MIL turrets, this scope just have EVERYTHING I could possibly need. I mean I have a 3500 Surgeon .338 Lapua, so why not step up to a 2000 dollar scope that will fit the accuracy of the rifle??
I am just hoping that these Vortex scopes hold up well. Do any of you both have the Viper PST AND the RAZOR HD? If so, do you think the Razor is worth over double the money to the PST? I'm just seeing if my money was well spent or not. I was VERY tempted to get a Nightforce, but I just didn't see what the big deal was on a FFP scope until I was shooting longe range on my Falcon Menance SFP scope and was really screwing up my D.O.P.E. corrections due to not having it on 10x power.
[MENTION=89249]Flyboyzack[/MENTION] You are correct about the swfa holding up. It will take a beating. 2 other scopes I've put on the rifle that destroyed the PST are the NF NXS 5.5x22 with Badger Ordnance rings and the new Bushnell XRS with Mark IV rings. I can't really say as to how well the xrs has held up because its pretty new , but one of my NF's has been on there for at least 600 rds and I've never had one issue with tracking, losing zero ect....
I think the PST in question has definetly got its place in the shooting community. Having said that , I think it's best suited for rifles whose recoil resembles that of the .308. NOT THE BIG BOYS. As far as the Razor goes, all I've heard are that are great scopes with amazing glass. I don't think one person has posted in this thread about problems with them. I admit I've never used one.
So, with all due respect towards Vortex, maybe this thread will give them a little more awareness that the PST's are problematic in some aspects and correct it.
As Snipers Hide Members, I'd say we probably have a lot of our feed back taken into account by them. I wish they had a representative on here who would comment. Because we all know they have seen this thread
I think the PST in question has definetly got its place in the shooting community. Having said that , I think it's best suited for rifles whose recoil resembles that of the .308. NOT THE BIG BOYS. As far as the Razor goes, all I've heard are that are great scopes with amazing glass. I don't think one person has posted in this thread about problems with them. I admit I've never used one.
So, with all due respect towards Vortex, maybe this thread will give them a little more awareness that the PST's are problematic in some aspects and correct it.
As Snipers Hide Members, I'd say we probably have a lot of our feed back taken into account by them. I wish they had a representative on here who would comment. Because we all know they have seen this thread
I'm not going to go into detail to keep down butthurtedness but I will say that all five of the Vortex products I had including a PST had to go back. Yes the replacements were quick and painless but that doesn't give me any peace of mind that it's not going to shit the bed. Something that makes me wonder also is that you only hear of Razors getting repaired, it seems like they replace everything else. With the return rate which is honestly higher than it should be, how little must these thigs actually cost for them to afford to do that and not go belly up.
IMO there are two reasons why Vortex does so well. The first is there is a severe emotional attachment people got when these scopes debut was pushed back for years and years, even before they came out people were defending them. The second is the warranty, it's a great warranty but it needs to be if there's a lot of problems. If you don't mind sending stuff back time and time again it works out but a lot of us don't like doing that.
It really doesn't matter how many are out there compared to the higher end ones, a ratio is just that, a ratio. I will say though that there is a crap ton more nightforces that have been produced vs. PST and Razor and they had a return rate of less than 1% last year. I'm not sure where S&B or any others stand but you really can't get any better than that.
IMO there are two reasons why Vortex does so well. The first is there is a severe emotional attachment people got when these scopes debut was pushed back for years and years, even before they came out people were defending them. The second is the warranty, it's a great warranty but it needs to be if there's a lot of problems. If you don't mind sending stuff back time and time again it works out but a lot of us don't like doing that.
It really doesn't matter how many are out there compared to the higher end ones, a ratio is just that, a ratio. I will say though that there is a crap ton more nightforces that have been produced vs. PST and Razor and they had a return rate of less than 1% last year. I'm not sure where S&B or any others stand but you really can't get any better than that.
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Well said sir.. I still say a Vortex Rep ought to get on here and address these issues with ALL of us. Maybe the mods can make that happen. MODS.....
Got to tell ya, I was just about to buy 2 more pst scopes because I liked the one on my Edge so much, but after reading these posts I'm looking seriously at Bushnell Elite tactical line of scopes.
I have a VV PST 4-16X50 on my 308 Armalite AR 10 A4. I have always been a NightForce guy. I am wondering now beginning to wonder if I made a mistake in not getting another NF NXS 3-15X50 instead.
I knew about all of this beforehand. My Vortex 6-24FFP arrived a week or so ago. Overwhelmingly there are positive ratings on it and very little with durability. 15-20 scopes out of the thousands that they sell is well within the range of acceptability for me. I would bet that you can find several threads of where just about any manufacturer has issues. Part of the game. What I look at is whether or not, WHEN/IF it does break, do they take care of it. There is not another manufacturer with the same warranty.
I have seen several threads from high $$$ companies that are generally titled "My _____ (insert big $$$ scope mfr.) scope broke, its out of warranty, and ________ company is being a pain" You WONT find that with Vortex. You do find where guys dropped and damaged their Vortex optics and the company still warrantied it.
What I am getting at is that that clearly the combo of Viper PST and 338LM with brake does not work together. Sucks big time. Does that mean, all 338LM or other rifles will have the same problems? Who knows. If mine dies on my 308, I will be the first hear to tell ya about it.
I have seen several threads from high $$$ companies that are generally titled "My _____ (insert big $$$ scope mfr.) scope broke, its out of warranty, and ________ company is being a pain" You WONT find that with Vortex. You do find where guys dropped and damaged their Vortex optics and the company still warrantied it.
What I am getting at is that that clearly the combo of Viper PST and 338LM with brake does not work together. Sucks big time. Does that mean, all 338LM or other rifles will have the same problems? Who knows. If mine dies on my 308, I will be the first hear to tell ya about it.
Had two die on a suppressed .243. Took less than 100 rounds for each. One was fucked out of the box and after repeated mount, un mount, send back and repeat adventures I said fuck it and ditched both. I'll never own another PST and probably a Vortex for that matter.
That sucks. Pretty damned frustrating! I know! I'm fixing to go to their website and email them.
I've never seen a PST or HS LR fail on better than a dozen braked rifles most being magnums and RUM's! If I had a steady supply of these break I would be looking at myself or changing brakes because something is happening that isn't good for any optic, even if they to hack it for a while!
If PST's fail because i shoot a rifle "incorrectly", i don't believe i would want it. I had trouble last fall with a pst, twice. After starting a thread in vortex's industry forum on arfcom i got the royal treatment and taken care good.
Suppressed .243 = recoil of a .223 Rem or even less. And not reverse recoil like brakes cause. Interesting.
Dude, have several thousand rounds under more than a couple of them and no issues, smallest rifle is a 6.5 shooting 140's in the 3200fps range and on the top end is a couple 338 RUMs, one shoots a 300 at 2800fps the other shoots a 250 at 3100fps, 300 mags make up the middle of the pack and all braked and never a one broke!
Didn't someone mention emotional attachment earlier ....I trust them on 223&22-250 but that is it for me.
No emotional attachment at all, prefer to mount Nightforce but some guys don't need that much optic and the Vortex has been working very well, they aren't a Nightforce but they've been serviceable!
Funny how emotional every one gets when some one does not have a problem!!
Funny how emotional every one gets when some one does not have a problem!!
Well holy shit hallelujah. BigGreen you are the man. What's your birthday so I can play the lottery with it.
Uh, that is what a ratio is. The number sold versus the number with issues. If Company A had 100 reported failures and Company B had 10, which is better?
Now add in the info that Company A sold 10,000 units and Company B sold 100 units, which is better? The number sold DEFINITELY makes a difference to the return ratio. A NUMBER of issues/returns is not a ratio.
Do you know that the Vortex return rate is more than 1%?
I love it how one person's personal experience is valid because it was a bad one, but another one with repeated success with the same product in in a similar circumstance is suddenly invalid because it was a positive experience. If we are going to have a balanced opinion of a product, and there are 100 people saying the product is great and they have had no issue with it, and 1 person saying something negative, it would have a 1% failure rate. The whole product isn't garbage because of a couple bad experiences. I've seen PST's in use on some big guns with brakes, and no issues on the Sacramento prone matches. I find it funny that the Hide is the only place PST's are being badmouthed. I don't care either way, just stating observations.
bigngreen said:
This...just think of all the PSTs out there that HAVEN'T broken...
I've got two Vortex HS-Ts and I like them a lot; if they break I'll send 'em back and if they break a second time I'll send 'em back and once the replacements arrive, sell them for a loss in favor of something else. And probably jump on SnipersHide and tell everybody how Vortex scopes are big pieces of shit.
If something doesn't perform up to expectation, replace it with something that will. If you don't trust it, replace it with something you do. Both can be an aggravating waste of time, money and effort to get to that point....but it is what it is.
No emotion, just reality.
You know why everybody knows and praises Vortex warranty? Because just about everybody has had to send one back or knows somebody that has had to send one back. To Vortex's defense, you really only hear about the PSTs going down and not so much the Razor HD but its also twice the price so there is obviously a huge gap in quality between them and not just the glass.
Aimsmall55 said:
I read your original post, and your subsequent posts. Including #69, where you acted like a cock toward somebody who had the audacity to share their positive experience with these optics.
But yeah, I'm the "jerk off".
Confirmed the pst on my buddy's rifle is tits up. The other day during first round load work ups all groups were.542-.1.20". Today went back, noticed yesterday that a threaded collar of some sort was jacked up, and proceeded to shot 2-2.5 moa groups. This was the load that hammered in the .542". Es of 18.xx and sd of 8.xx. Shot good the other day, noticed scope was falling apart, shot like shit today. Must be atmospheric conditions cause PST are bullet proof. Talked to vortex, send it in and we'll fix/replace it. Told them my buddy would sell it for a hdmr or NF, the lady told me that was a shame.lol
I no longer have the PST's but now run a Razor. Yes, it is better in every way than the PST. Only you can decide if 950 vs. 1800 is worth it to you. It was to me, so I sold a PST to get the Razor.
Like I said before, I ran 3 different PST's without issue. Actually, I had one that that needed to have some debris cleaned off a lens. I ran them in match conditions, dropped one of them, and both were on braked rifles; one a 7RM and the other a short barreled .308. Obviously there are several that have had issues. But to label the PST as a "low recoil" type scope is ridiculous.
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Just ordered some Viper HD Binos and was thinking of checking out the scopes but will now stay with NF as I can't afford to take the chance. This to me is kind of like Kimber 1911's, they might be good guns but I'll never know as I can't afford $1000 mistakes
i was going to get a pst 6-24 ffp, but after reading this the new sightron ffp will be my new scope. made in Japan (like the razors) don't see threads with scope falling apart etc, while it will not have zero stop, lum retail, not a big thing if its durable.over seas, new Zealand with warranties if it sent back it tack along time, so you need a good scope. cheers
I dont even think its out yet, so of course you "dont see threads with it falling apart".
I think it had a LOT more to do with your initial suggestion that it was somehow the fault of all of these experienced shooters when their PSTs failed...that's ridiculous, and you had to have known it would evoke an emotional response.
To NOT have a problem, as you have not, should be what we all EXPECT out of the product, is it not? Nothing to get emotional about there. It would have to be the absolute worst product ever made if there weren't at least SOME people who didn't have a failure.
Well, fuck. I read nothing but great reviews on this damn scope. As soon as I buy one, nothing but bad shit.
I bought a SFP 6-24x50. Are there any correlations with problems being associated with FFP or SFP? Or are they all just fragile $800 - $1000 mistakes?
I realize that they are not expensive for this type of scope, but damn. $800 for a scope shouldn't leave you with something so undependable.
Hopefully the SFP proves to be more dependable, with less shit moving around in there?
I bought a SFP 6-24x50. Are there any correlations with problems being associated with FFP or SFP? Or are they all just fragile $800 - $1000 mistakes?
I realize that they are not expensive for this type of scope, but damn. $800 for a scope shouldn't leave you with something so undependable.
Hopefully the SFP proves to be more dependable, with less shit moving around in there?
guy at a comp last weekend had a pst on his braked 7 saum and has 900 rounds through it with not problems maybe he is just lucky. Got the hs lr ffp on my creedmoor with no problems so far but recoil is pretty minimal with that. Only thing I have sent back was my spotting scope and that was because some fucking goon sat on it in the pickup and broke the eye piece off had it back in 4 days as deer hunting was starting. they have served me well so far and i am pretty hard on shit
I know what you mean - I did a lot of research before I bought mine, and it was all positive. That's why I had such a hard time believing that it was the source of my problem when it failed. To answer your specific question, I can only offer that mine was FFP, but I don't know if that was a factor or not.
Number of posts-85
Subject matter- Tits up PST's
Number of times people insinuated they were no worse than a fucking Leupold-TWICE
There are a few things that boggle my mind about the fanboy mentality. In my circles we call it the Savage Syndrome, the Freedom Arms syndrome, and now it appears to be the Vortex Syndrome. It is usually a chronic condition but some have been cured through intense meditation and searching their inner being.
It appears that anything that seems to be a great value causes some to completely lose sight of reality and are eager to create excuses for equipment, or simply decide to live in a state of denial. The same thing happens when one pays an insane price for things as well. You never hear about the $2000 Freedom Arms revolvers that start out as amazing pieces of equipment that will rival rifles in accuracy, and then shit the bed after 1500 rounds. Just an example, I personally know of at least 5. When you pay that much for something that is supposed to last. It is really hard to confide to people that you sent it back and they put a new barrel on it......for a charge of $400.
I don't really care, I just feel bad for the poor saps that unwittingly get snookered into the syndrome.
Subject matter- Tits up PST's
Number of times people insinuated they were no worse than a fucking Leupold-TWICE
There are a few things that boggle my mind about the fanboy mentality. In my circles we call it the Savage Syndrome, the Freedom Arms syndrome, and now it appears to be the Vortex Syndrome. It is usually a chronic condition but some have been cured through intense meditation and searching their inner being.
It appears that anything that seems to be a great value causes some to completely lose sight of reality and are eager to create excuses for equipment, or simply decide to live in a state of denial. The same thing happens when one pays an insane price for things as well. You never hear about the $2000 Freedom Arms revolvers that start out as amazing pieces of equipment that will rival rifles in accuracy, and then shit the bed after 1500 rounds. Just an example, I personally know of at least 5. When you pay that much for something that is supposed to last. It is really hard to confide to people that you sent it back and they put a new barrel on it......for a charge of $400.
I don't really care, I just feel bad for the poor saps that unwittingly get snookered into the syndrome.
Good information. It was explained to me by a gunsmith that the muzzle brake acts as a sledge hammer on the scope. Magnums must have a good quality scope.
What boggles my mind is how someone could insinuate that 85 posts means that there are 85 scopes that failed???????
S&B have yellow in the double turn models. you could paint it with to look like the rest, but why bother, it still functions good.
I was going to post how both of my PSTs have held up very well, but post #93 will further degrade the failure rate ratio of Vortex's Snipershide warranty department.
1. If you are shooting a fancy high end magnum... buy a high end scope. You generally get what you pay for so I don't see why folks are expecting a sub $1K scope to be both feature rich and bombproof.
2. Nobody should infer any kind of failure ratio here, this is a post on the internet by a tiny fraction of the overall pool of Vortex product users - it's not a scientific study.
3. I'm sure Vortex is monitoring their warranty expense and looking for ways to fix common-reoccurring issues, all companies do this. I don't know if their quality control is better of worse than any other company in the sub 1K price range but at least they seem to stand behind their stuff when it breaks.
I don't have a PST but if it fit the bill I wouldn't hesitate to buy one... again I wouldn't be slapping a sub 1K optic on a big dollar powerhouse of a rifle regardless of brand.
2. Nobody should infer any kind of failure ratio here, this is a post on the internet by a tiny fraction of the overall pool of Vortex product users - it's not a scientific study.
3. I'm sure Vortex is monitoring their warranty expense and looking for ways to fix common-reoccurring issues, all companies do this. I don't know if their quality control is better of worse than any other company in the sub 1K price range but at least they seem to stand behind their stuff when it breaks.
I don't have a PST but if it fit the bill I wouldn't hesitate to buy one... again I wouldn't be slapping a sub 1K optic on a big dollar powerhouse of a rifle regardless of brand.
I'm sorry were you saying something? I was busy shooting and running a match yesterday so I didn't have time for bullshit.
I should have taken the number of tender vaginas involved in these situations, as already indicated by my awareness of the syndromes that plague some personalities represented here. I apologize to all of those tender souls who may have thought I was insinuating there were 85 PST's that had shit the bed. That was not my intention.
Most here seem to be blaming everything from muzzle brakes to gunsmiths, hey gotta be something...right? What could it be?
How many people have sent one back more than once? How many have received a new scope every time? Why would they send you a new scope as opposed to fixing your broke one? Is it really their rock solid customer service of is it cheaper to replace it? Why is it cheaper to replace it? Do they have a refurb program? Can you buy a refurb?
If you think about those questions for a little while and look past your bruised moo moo you will find a glaring fact. You aren't getting a bargain, you are getting fucked. If they can replace the scope cheaper than they can fix it, then the sum of the parts aren't worth the labor to fix it, which would indicate the actual cost to produce the scope is very low. If that is the case(and it is)and you just paid $600 for that scope with all the nice bells and whistles, you just got fucked.
How many companies fix a scope if it goes tits up? How many other companies have great customer service? If you think sending you a brand new scope every time you have a problem is great customer service, you are pretty gullible. Great customer service usually starts by not fucking you out of your money with false economy.
I have two Elite Tacticals, 3.5 - 30 x 50's, and their optics are nowhere as good or clear as the one 6-24x50 PST I have. In the same breath, I will add that the Vortex had to go back for a canted reticle, where the Bushnell's have never given me the slightest issue (other than some less than satisfactory optical quality).
I've got Vortex and Nikon. Saved the boxes for both but I figure if anything ever goes wrong with either of them only the Vortex box will make a round trip without additional charge. For ANY reason.
So basically if a company stands by their product they are bastards for over charging the first time.
If a company doesnt stand behind their product they are bastards for not having good customer service.
Its a very dark world you live in sir, and your not the only one who shot matches this weekend, so that wont get you the wow factor here that it does on other sites.
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