Looking for a bullet that will make it out to 1,000 yards, is accurate, and capable of killing deer and yotes from 1 to 600 yards. Right now I'm shooting 175 smk's @ only 2580 fps. The gun is a stock 700 xcr tactical long range, 26" barrel, 12 twist. The SMK is great but I don't want to risk it hunting ( I know some people do). It would be nice to have just one bullet/load to hunt and target shoot with. Less components to buy and less dope to keep up with is what I'm after.
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Need a 308 do-all bullet
- Thread starter bjordan
- Start date
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
The 168 Amax is VERY accurate and does well on game. It will make it to 1000 just not quite as well as the 175's.
I guess it depends on your velocity and elevation.
The 168 Amax is VERY accurate and does well on game. It will make it to 1000 just not quite as well as the 175's.
I guess it depends on your velocity and elevation.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
Another vote for the 178 Amax.
Ballistics are on par with the same load data for the 175's. The 168 Amax is another good choice but the 178 will do better past 600 due to a higher BC.
In short, either Amax is fine and they flat kill on the receiving end.
Another vote for the 178 Amax.
Ballistics are on par with the same load data for the 175's. The 168 Amax is another good choice but the 178 will do better past 600 due to a higher BC.
In short, either Amax is fine and they flat kill on the receiving end.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
The 180g Nosler ballistic tip does very well for all of what you're asking, although a bit more spendy.
The 180g Nosler ballistic tip does very well for all of what you're asking, although a bit more spendy.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
178 A Max would be choice 1
175 Berger VLD-Hunting would be next if the A Max are not available (The 178 A Max is notorious for being sold out)
178 A Max would be choice 1
175 Berger VLD-Hunting would be next if the A Max are not available (The 178 A Max is notorious for being sold out)
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line.
One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
I was looking for these, and sure enough, they are sold out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremybj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">178 A Max would be choice 1
175 Berger VLD-Hunting would be next if the A Max are not available (The 178 A Max is notorious for being sold out) </div></div>
I was looking for these, and sure enough, they are sold out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremybj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">178 A Max would be choice 1
175 Berger VLD-Hunting would be next if the A Max are not available (The 178 A Max is notorious for being sold out) </div></div>
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
What is the JLK, and what do you mean you have to jump it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line. </div></div>
What is the JLK, and what do you mean you have to jump it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line. </div></div>
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trajectory_student</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the JLK, and what do you mean you have to jump it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line. </div></div> </div></div>
http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/
Click on "Bullets" and then scroll down to the bottom of the page, 308-180-LBT
And this <span style="text-decoration: underline">from Berger’s website</span> concerning seating depth and jump;
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Solution</span>
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trajectory_student</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the JLK, and what do you mean you have to jump it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One bullet, JLK 180 LB-VLD, it will turn your 308 nearly into a 6.5mm (a real BC around .575-.580 g1 by my 1000y testing and others), but in a factory Remington chamber you will have to jump it. It uses the same jacket at the original berger vld's which is there hunting line now that they developed the heavier jacket for the target line. </div></div> </div></div>
http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/
Click on "Bullets" and then scroll down to the bottom of the page, 308-180-LBT
And this <span style="text-decoration: underline">from Berger’s website</span> concerning seating depth and jump;
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Solution</span>
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 725franky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the above outlined test apply to all bullets or just the Berger VLD's? (the whole jumping .04" increments out to .140")
</div></div>
I cant say if it would apply to all bullets, however it should work for all that share the VLD design.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 725franky</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the above outlined test apply to all bullets or just the Berger VLD's? (the whole jumping .04" increments out to .140")
</div></div>
I cant say if it would apply to all bullets, however it should work for all that share the VLD design.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
175 JLK will do it all. If you want to go that route, strongly recommend you go to an AICS magazine system to get you out to 2.860 OAL.
Better yet is DBM that will take Alpha type 2 magazine or modified AICS mag that will allow you to get an OAL of 2.980". Notch feed ramp on 700 and run the 175 JLKs at 2.930" OAL for factory Rem 700 chamber. 2700 fps is very reasonable with the JLK when you properly configure magazine system and rifle.
175 JLK will do it all. If you want to go that route, strongly recommend you go to an AICS magazine system to get you out to 2.860 OAL.
Better yet is DBM that will take Alpha type 2 magazine or modified AICS mag that will allow you to get an OAL of 2.980". Notch feed ramp on 700 and run the 175 JLKs at 2.930" OAL for factory Rem 700 chamber. 2700 fps is very reasonable with the JLK when you properly configure magazine system and rifle.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
Well honestly after reading through this I see a pattern. There are better types of bullets for hunting and better types of bullet for 1k yard shooting on paper. If you truly want only one 308 load you might wanna decide what you do more with your 308, hunt or target shoot, because getting a game bullet will be a compromise of target shooting performance (even if on smaller degrees than others) and same vice versa.
Sounds like you need to work on other things as well since you are only getting 2500 fps, maybe a change in powder, primer, or bullet seat depth is in order, if you want to keep you bullet 1.2 mach down range at 1000k.
Personally I would just have a game round and a target round, but if youre not competitive with the target shooting go with a hunting round, but if you are competitive stick with the SMK and just go for head shots (if your not going to mount obviously)
Just my .02
Well honestly after reading through this I see a pattern. There are better types of bullets for hunting and better types of bullet for 1k yard shooting on paper. If you truly want only one 308 load you might wanna decide what you do more with your 308, hunt or target shoot, because getting a game bullet will be a compromise of target shooting performance (even if on smaller degrees than others) and same vice versa.
Sounds like you need to work on other things as well since you are only getting 2500 fps, maybe a change in powder, primer, or bullet seat depth is in order, if you want to keep you bullet 1.2 mach down range at 1000k.
Personally I would just have a game round and a target round, but if youre not competitive with the target shooting go with a hunting round, but if you are competitive stick with the SMK and just go for head shots (if your not going to mount obviously)
Just my .02
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
Thanks for all the input so far guys, it's looking like the 178 A-max is better suited for hunting and about the same BC. The reason I'm shooting the SMK's soo slow is thats where it shot the best at. I couldn't get it to shoot well with varget and was seeing pressure signs on the faster Reloader 15 node, so I just settled on the slow Reloader-15 load. I've been wanting to try 4064 but haven't yet. I put all my money in my gun and optics so it leaves very little for components.
Thanks for all the input so far guys, it's looking like the 178 A-max is better suited for hunting and about the same BC. The reason I'm shooting the SMK's soo slow is thats where it shot the best at. I couldn't get it to shoot well with varget and was seeing pressure signs on the faster Reloader 15 node, so I just settled on the slow Reloader-15 load. I've been wanting to try 4064 but haven't yet. I put all my money in my gun and optics so it leaves very little for components.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
A-Max bullets are not suitable for hunting. That is not what they are designed to do. They are match bullets. They are not made to properly expand efficiently on game. They are not designed to retain weight upon impact.
For a good hunting bullet up to Whitetail-sized game that will also be a decent target bullet, I would go with one of the following:
1. Hornady 165-gr SST
2. Nosler 165-gr Accubond
3. Nosler 165-gr Ballistic Tip (for smaller game ... 'Yotes, and the like)
4. Sierra 165-gr Game King HPBT (#2140)
Again, A-Max bullets are match bullets. The above bullets will give you near-match accuracy with solid terminal performance. There is no bullet that can be perfect as a match bullet AND as a hunting bullet.
For my 308, I prefer 165-grain Nosler Partition at 2700 FPS for Whitetail-sized game and up. For smaller game, I prefer 150-grain Sierra Game King HPBT at 2850 FPS.
A-Max bullets are not suitable for hunting. That is not what they are designed to do. They are match bullets. They are not made to properly expand efficiently on game. They are not designed to retain weight upon impact.
For a good hunting bullet up to Whitetail-sized game that will also be a decent target bullet, I would go with one of the following:
1. Hornady 165-gr SST
2. Nosler 165-gr Accubond
3. Nosler 165-gr Ballistic Tip (for smaller game ... 'Yotes, and the like)
4. Sierra 165-gr Game King HPBT (#2140)
Again, A-Max bullets are match bullets. The above bullets will give you near-match accuracy with solid terminal performance. There is no bullet that can be perfect as a match bullet AND as a hunting bullet.
For my 308, I prefer 165-grain Nosler Partition at 2700 FPS for Whitetail-sized game and up. For smaller game, I prefer 150-grain Sierra Game King HPBT at 2850 FPS.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnowDog650</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A-Max bullets are not suitable for hunting. That is not what they are designed to do. They are match bullets. They are not made to properly expand efficiently on game. They are not designed to retain weight upon impact.
For a good hunting bullet up to Whitetail-sized game that will also be a decent target bullet, I would go with one of the following:
1. Hornady 165-gr SST
2. Nosler 165-gr Accubond
3. Nosler 165-gr Ballistic Tip (for smaller game ... 'Yotes, and the like)
4. Sierra 165-gr Game King HPBT (#2140)
Again, A-Max bullets are match bullets. The above bullets will give you near-match accuracy with solid terminal performance. There is no bullet that can be perfect as a match bullet AND as a hunting bullet.
For my 308, I prefer 165-grain Nosler Partition at 2700 FPS for Whitetail-sized game and up. For smaller game, I prefer 150-grain Sierra Game King HPBT at 2850 FPS.
</div></div>
Tell that to all the people who have started hunting with them, including me. Yes the AMAX was designed as a match bullet but they have proven themselves to work really well on thin skinned gamed such as whitetails.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnowDog650</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A-Max bullets are not suitable for hunting. That is not what they are designed to do. They are match bullets. They are not made to properly expand efficiently on game. They are not designed to retain weight upon impact.
For a good hunting bullet up to Whitetail-sized game that will also be a decent target bullet, I would go with one of the following:
1. Hornady 165-gr SST
2. Nosler 165-gr Accubond
3. Nosler 165-gr Ballistic Tip (for smaller game ... 'Yotes, and the like)
4. Sierra 165-gr Game King HPBT (#2140)
Again, A-Max bullets are match bullets. The above bullets will give you near-match accuracy with solid terminal performance. There is no bullet that can be perfect as a match bullet AND as a hunting bullet.
For my 308, I prefer 165-grain Nosler Partition at 2700 FPS for Whitetail-sized game and up. For smaller game, I prefer 150-grain Sierra Game King HPBT at 2850 FPS.
</div></div>
Tell that to all the people who have started hunting with them, including me. Yes the AMAX was designed as a match bullet but they have proven themselves to work really well on thin skinned gamed such as whitetails.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mkollman74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">175 Berger VLD. Wicked accurate, deadly on game. </div></div>
+1
Just make sure you get hunting not tactical. Different jackets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mkollman74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">175 Berger VLD. Wicked accurate, deadly on game. </div></div>
+1
Just make sure you get hunting not tactical. Different jackets.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
has anyone tried the 110gr V-max? im looking for a varmint round an was wondering how they go? (shooting from 100yrds to 300yrds at night an cant determine the range, just want to point, shoot, hit)
i have a 11" twist barrel.
anyone tried them?
has anyone tried the 110gr V-max? im looking for a varmint round an was wondering how they go? (shooting from 100yrds to 300yrds at night an cant determine the range, just want to point, shoot, hit)
i have a 11" twist barrel.
anyone tried them?
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
I like the Hornady 178HPBT over 47.5grs 2000MR, it shoots pretty well for me so far, just in the fine tuning stages.
I like the Hornady 178HPBT over 47.5grs 2000MR, it shoots pretty well for me so far, just in the fine tuning stages.
Re: Need a 308 do-all bullet
+1 on the 165 accubonds. May not be a match round, but have stayed tight out to 400 yards through load development with my hunting rifle. I believe shot placement is just as important as the bullet used
+1 on the 165 accubonds. May not be a match round, but have stayed tight out to 400 yards through load development with my hunting rifle. I believe shot placement is just as important as the bullet used
