I get the point, everyone has a different opinion, which is good, we can learn a little from everyone, that's why I start these posts. I take a little from everyone to help me narrow down my decision. I value everyone's input, so thank you.
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Need advice on a build for a hunting rifle 6.5 cm or 308 carbon fiber or stainless steel barrel & and a good stock McMillan or similar?
- Thread starter Kawi
- Start date
I get that but people #1 aren’t comparing long range guns to the one we’re showing, we are adding 100% of the weight and then they don’t
For a hunting rifle it all depends on how you hunt. For me a lighter uncomplicated rig without junk hanging off or adj this and that with a scope the size of a sewer pipe is handier. One of my best shots was a Coues that jumped from behind a tree at 60yards I had a small window to swing on him and nail the shot before more brush obscured him. A simple rig that is easy to keep ready in hand made it so I could swing aim and shoot him through the heart. So depends on how you hunt.
I agree, that's where a shorter barrel comes in handy. I figure a 22" barrel on a short action, and 24" on a long action are the perfect size for all around hunting.
How well a hunting rifle shoots is a matter of opinions and expectations. I consider "a minute of venison" to be a reasonable measure of accuracy, whatever that means. To me, that means that when I don't flub the shot, it's brown and down.
Taking that same rifle to the range requires an understanding that "range is nice, but brown and own fills the larder". Priorities are important. A .308 is great, the 6.5CM is great-er for small-medium game.
I would also suggest that some of the capabilities that make a rifle great as a match/range rifle just as quickly make it a drudge boat anchor to drag around in the field.
If such was not true, then why do they make match/range rifles? By the same token, a hunter that performs well in match competition or off the bench is not an average hunter, and treasure to be cherished for a lifetime if you ever actually find one. I think they have those one in a thousand factory barrels under the hood.
My (now transferred downward in the family hierarchy) Win Post-64 Model 70 Featherweight .30-'06 was a very satisfying rifle. It brought in the meat, won every 'deer rifle' match it entered, and shot just a smidge under 1MOA at 200yd with 168gr FGMM off the bench/bipod. If your hunter will do that with reasonable consistency, it's exceptional and I will always miss mine.
Featherweights are getting costly. I also owned (same disposition) a lovely Savage Predator Hunter Max 1 .260 Rem. With shakeups in the new Savage lineup. I would consider the 110 Predator 6.5CM to be its closest equivalent these days. I think it's a lot of rifle, very well suited to your intentions, and decently affordable for the task. If you want a greater terminal performance, or seek a much longer distance capability in a hunter, I would suggest the 110 Hunter in .280 Ackley (only one of a broad range of chambering selections in this model).
I believe it makes excellent sense to build a Match/Square Range rifle, but that there are so many excellent factory hunters that building one is an exercise in stubborn vanity. What you want is 99.99% going to be found in a catalog.
My own choice for general purpose big game chamberings will continue to be '30-'06.
Submitted for your approval...
Greg
Taking that same rifle to the range requires an understanding that "range is nice, but brown and own fills the larder". Priorities are important. A .308 is great, the 6.5CM is great-er for small-medium game.
I would also suggest that some of the capabilities that make a rifle great as a match/range rifle just as quickly make it a drudge boat anchor to drag around in the field.
If such was not true, then why do they make match/range rifles? By the same token, a hunter that performs well in match competition or off the bench is not an average hunter, and treasure to be cherished for a lifetime if you ever actually find one. I think they have those one in a thousand factory barrels under the hood.
My (now transferred downward in the family hierarchy) Win Post-64 Model 70 Featherweight .30-'06 was a very satisfying rifle. It brought in the meat, won every 'deer rifle' match it entered, and shot just a smidge under 1MOA at 200yd with 168gr FGMM off the bench/bipod. If your hunter will do that with reasonable consistency, it's exceptional and I will always miss mine.
Featherweights are getting costly. I also owned (same disposition) a lovely Savage Predator Hunter Max 1 .260 Rem. With shakeups in the new Savage lineup. I would consider the 110 Predator 6.5CM to be its closest equivalent these days. I think it's a lot of rifle, very well suited to your intentions, and decently affordable for the task. If you want a greater terminal performance, or seek a much longer distance capability in a hunter, I would suggest the 110 Hunter in .280 Ackley (only one of a broad range of chambering selections in this model).
I believe it makes excellent sense to build a Match/Square Range rifle, but that there are so many excellent factory hunters that building one is an exercise in stubborn vanity. What you want is 99.99% going to be found in a catalog.
My own choice for general purpose big game chamberings will continue to be '30-'06.
Submitted for your approval...
Greg
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You already have lots of good info and recommendations.
I take a little different stance than most in that I pick my bullet first. Based on my experiences, I have developed the opinion that caliber means very little by itself. To me the true key factors in order of importance are bullet structure, sectional density and BC(only important at longer ranges). Matching those factors with the game I'm pursuing and style hunting I will employ is my chosen recipe for success. Once those factors have been considered it's usually a fairly simple task to decide on the cartridge, based on secondary factors, of throwing my chosen projectile at a given velocity or energy.
Tolerance to weight, length and accuracy are very individual specific matters. It's no different than asking everyone's favorite food. You will get a thousand different answers and you might find that none of them fit your preferences. Myself, I'm a simple guy most of the time: Barrel can't be more than 26" with suppressor if traveling through heavy brush/woods and must be less than 12lb fully loaded w/ sling (bipod need not apply as I prefer to shoot off my pack as needed).
I take a little different stance than most in that I pick my bullet first. Based on my experiences, I have developed the opinion that caliber means very little by itself. To me the true key factors in order of importance are bullet structure, sectional density and BC(only important at longer ranges). Matching those factors with the game I'm pursuing and style hunting I will employ is my chosen recipe for success. Once those factors have been considered it's usually a fairly simple task to decide on the cartridge, based on secondary factors, of throwing my chosen projectile at a given velocity or energy.
Tolerance to weight, length and accuracy are very individual specific matters. It's no different than asking everyone's favorite food. You will get a thousand different answers and you might find that none of them fit your preferences. Myself, I'm a simple guy most of the time: Barrel can't be more than 26" with suppressor if traveling through heavy brush/woods and must be less than 12lb fully loaded w/ sling (bipod need not apply as I prefer to shoot off my pack as needed).
Sectional density is an important factor that is way under discussed.
SD is discussed it’s just passively by discussing BC so while it isn’t named outright it’s still discussed quite a bit.
Mostly correct, you could have a high BC target 150gr 30cal and Nosler partition low BC 165gr 30cal, but the 165 will always have the higher SD.
BC = SD/form factor
So it’s impossible to talk about BC and not SD
I wasn’t saying they are the same, just that in our quest for high BC these days you are always also discussing SD even if you don’t know it.
So it’s impossible to talk about BC and not SD
I wasn’t saying they are the same, just that in our quest for high BC these days you are always also discussing SD even if you don’t know it.
Be it matches or hunting I don't use super heavyweight rifles, which I class as anything above 15lbs. I've won a lot with a 14lb gun - thats fully loaded with bipod (not including sling) - I've also built match hunting hybrid in 6.5x47 that comes in at 12.5lb Inc bipod:
It didn't take long to figure out that it's not well suited to long haul trips - but is a fantastic setup for shorter distance hikes and less mountainous areas.
For a something that is match rifle accurate but weighs 8.8lb loaded with bipod this is what I built:
20' factory tikka 6.5cm shooting 147 Eldm's at 2650fps.
Very consistent to 500m:
It didn't take long to figure out that it's not well suited to long haul trips - but is a fantastic setup for shorter distance hikes and less mountainous areas.
For a something that is match rifle accurate but weighs 8.8lb loaded with bipod this is what I built:
20' factory tikka 6.5cm shooting 147 Eldm's at 2650fps.
Very consistent to 500m:
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Great setup, thanks for posting. Make those SUB 7 pound rifles with sling and bipod that shoot look more like unicorns.
Nice stuff btw
I have a confession to make. I have several super light rifles. Although, a couple are in Wyoming now.
I have a Tikka T3 Mag Superlite with the fluted barrel it is a 6lbs gun if I talk like some of the guys on this thread, but after the sling 9oz, bipod 7oz base and rings 5oz and a light turreted scope 28oz I call this a 9lbs gun.. it is a brute to shoot a mag unbraked at this weight.
What stock is that on your Tikka???? Is it lighter than the factory? It looks very nice
BTW the barrel fluted is still much thicker than the Kimber Mountain Accent I had @ about 5lbs. before it was a sub 8 lbs rifle kitted. I traded it for a scope because the heat of a few rounds f'd with that thin, ultra thin barrel. In other words I could not shoot it well after the second shot.
7 LBS
vintage REM 700 LA
24" Lilja Barrel #1 270 WIN
Brown Precision Carbon Fiber stock
MOD 70 safety mod
Sako extractor
Talley mounts
Swarovski Z3 3-9 X 36
3.5 LBS
Vanguard Espod 233CB
Vanguard BH-50 ball head
Swarovski binocular adapter
Total 10.5 LBS
Sweet to carry & SUB MOA second shot or tenth shot
vintage REM 700 LA
24" Lilja Barrel #1 270 WIN
Brown Precision Carbon Fiber stock
MOD 70 safety mod
Sako extractor
Talley mounts
Swarovski Z3 3-9 X 36
3.5 LBS
Vanguard Espod 233CB
Vanguard BH-50 ball head
Swarovski binocular adapter
Total 10.5 LBS
Sweet to carry & SUB MOA second shot or tenth shot
The tikka is a good base for a lightweight build if only because it's difficult to find one that won't shoot sub moa - that said after owning one in 9.3x62 I'm leery of a magnum build on anything sub 8lbs. I'm using a southfort labs long range stock - the company is based out of NZ but I believe you can purchase their products through stockys in the US. Aside from a muted 'hollow' sound I'm a big fan of the stock, weights 1.3lb with significantly better egos than the factory offerings.
I could save more weight by running talley rings, substituting a sling for a Kifaru gunbearer and going to a March 3-24 scope. Also, shooting off the pack can be extremely accurate thus negating the need for a bipod. That would still bring the final weight to around 7.5lb all up.
Backwards plan ALL THE THINGS! Seriously, though, that's how I work anything I intend to be done rationally and with good results. Define the problem set and the desired outcome and the solution has a funny way of presenting itself. ;-) It works well for clean sheet design, but we always being a bit of ourselves to any project...sometimes ancillary considerations (e.g. 6.5 CM or .308 Win) drive the train.
I would submit that for long range hunting, caliber is only useful insomuch as it is a substitute for mass and helps define a commonly known range of masses, form factors and probable performance based on anticipated muzzle velocity - it's a sort of short hand for a more in depth discussion...there's so many assumptions that go into a caliber though, that it's easy to talk past one another.
Agree with most of the above. Rifle cartridge matters in that it tells you something about the mass (and by extension, energy and momentum) that you can expect from said cartridge.
2 good pieces of reading/reference for the OP to consider:
1) Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting. It's more focused on fundamental ballistics, but it does have a chapter which provides a rough baseline for bullet lethality using matuna's optimal game weight formula.
2) Nathan Foster's Practical Guide to Long Range Hunting Cartridges. This one is much more focused on comparing and contrasting the killing abilities (for hunting applications) of most conventional rifle cartridges. The most recent version includes 6.5CM. It also gives a brief explanation of how bullets actually kill (perhaps stating the obvious for some hunters, but it does shed some light on nuanced topics that a lot of people aren't familiar with). The author has a lot of hands-on experience with using various cartridges for hunting different types of game.
A lot of casual conversations on hunting cartridges like to promote how cartridge selection is mostly a moot point once you get above a certain size. At close ranges, this is likely true; at intermediate and long ranges, cartridge selection becomes more important.
If the OP is looking for a generalist cartridge with which to deer hunt with at 200 yards and closer, just about any cartridge 6.5mm and larger should work just fine.
If the OP is looking to hunt wild sheep or large game (moose) at upper limit of ranges that are considered 'ethical,' he should do some research and settle on a cartridge that has a proven track record for such applications.
The rifle build/type should also be predicated on what type of hunting the OP wants to pursue. A lever-action or pump-action 18" barrel .308 may work well when stalking through the woods of the northeast (in fact said rifle types are still heavily preferred in those regions), but may not be ideal for a spot-and-stalk out in the Rockies.
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I am leaning toward a 6.5 prc at this point as several people have steered me away from a 308 so with that I pretty much have figured out my material list and want to thank everyone for their input. I'm sure I will have more questions.
My parts are in transit to Travis Stevens for machine work! He’s getting a new 6.5prc .120” FB reamer next week. Let u know how it goes.
I picked up a Bergara HMR 6.5 Creedmore 22 inch barrel and put a 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 Illuminated on it and I must say it is a light rifle with little recoil. I run the AAC break for my suppressor but over all I very pleased with the rifle for hunting and some long range. I have a 7mm SAUM Proof and EH1 along with a 6mm Creedmore Proof EH1 but the 22 inch barrel is nice when walking through brush so a lot of the time I take the Bergara. For matches I use my 14.7 pound 260 with a M40 contour Hart 22 inch barrel. The Proof barrels are 24 inch Sendero contour.
Lots of choices but practice is the key in my opinion.
Lots of choices but practice is the key in my opinion.
One other thing to consider when building any rifle is availability of ammo when away from home. That's why I stick with common calibers most of the time. In a pinch I want to be able to at least pick something up at a store. Once the PRC becomes more main stream I will probably build one.
My opinion only though.
My opinion only though.
Only just saw this...
Average pack weight for a mult-day hunt: 60-80lbs depending on the amount of water and the shelter type that I bring.
I understand that a hog hunt is not the same as a mountain sheep hunt. However, there is quite bit of hunting between those 2 ends of the spectrum where a heavy rifle is less than ideal. Most of my hunts are day hunts, where I'm walking anywhere from 4-8 miles from the vehicle in hilly and heavily forested terrain. I've carried a 12lb rifle in for those kinds of hunts; I've also carried a 7lb rifle. The 7lb rifle was much easier to handle, especially for those situations where I was following tracks in the snow, with my rifle unslung and ready.
Yes, weight can be shed everywhere (including your packed gear). But having to carry 3-5 less lbs on your shoulder or in your arms will make a world of difference over the course of a day, both physically and mentally.
I've noticed some people here argue: well it's only a few lb's, so what's the difference? Hunting for some people consists of walking a few hundred yards and then sitting for a few hours. There is nothing wrong with that type of hunting (it's actually a good strategy for certain regions and certain types of game), however, it doesn’t give those same people much perspective on what it means to carry a heavy rifle for long distances or over rough terrain.
You don’t need to be a mountain sheep or "backcountry" hunter to appreciate the advantages of a lighter rifle.
I also have a couple rifles in the 6lbs bare weight ~ I think you missed my point.
I would rather carry 2 pounds in a rifle that I can really shoot well with, uses the same adjustments as the scopes I compete with and take 10lbs off my pack. Many people have no idea what their pack weights or that they might save a couple pounds there, maybe 2lbs in a shelter, a pound in a bag.
For instance my waterproof roomy 2 person tent with floor weights under 20oz my carbon hiking poles 10oz.. etc..
So when I see a guy with a 20lbs pack base weight for a 3 night saying he needs a 7.5 mountain gun -- I'll totally get it, because that guy has trimmed everything down.. he doesn't have even the wrappers on his mountain house
No, I think we're talking past each other. You're focused on overall weight, and I'm noting that taking 3-5lbs off your shoulder/arms is going to make a bigger difference than taking 5 or even 10 lbs out of your pack.
And I'm totally for lightening the load everywhere such is feasible. But if you've actually had to carry a +10lb rifle for an extended period slung over your shoulder or alert in your arms, you'd understand what I'm getting at. To some degree you can get away with a few extra lb's in your pack (assuming the pack is properly set up and has a decent COG). Extra weight hanging off one of your shoulders or being hand-carried will punish you a bit more...plain and simple.
Yeah I’m a bit lost because my gun is generally strapped to the pack with a QR for those long miles of approach.
Well if you're hunting, instead of just walking, then the rifle needs to be readily accessible; vertical sling over shoulder, diagonal sling over torso, or hand-carried are some of the preferred methods. Most hunters prefer to limit the amount of weight carried in those positions as too much weight can become taxing, mentally and physically.
If you, or anyone else, want to hunt with a competition-ready, 12lb rifle then have at it. I just think it's a little disingenuous to point to your sit-down, tripod hog hunt as proof positive that rifle weight isn't a big deal. Yes, that's hunting, but its a world of difference from lots of other types of hunting where lugging around a 12lb rifle would be an absolute PITA.
Again point missed. All of my examples and everything I’ve been saying and talking about, are weighing everything in for the true weight of a LR gun. My 5lbs Kimber Mountain accent was well over 7lbs once I weighted every thing. I was also something I hated shorting any longer than I needed to. That’s why I sold it, my Tikka super light only 1 lbs heavier actually shot better.
I put the picture of my gun and the Hog only because somebody said the gun shown are not being used hunting. I was hunting during that thread.
There’s obviously all kind of hunting types and he didn’t ask specifically for the lightest possible alpine rig that would be absolutely miserable at the range. Actually, I think he specifically mentioned that he would like to take it to the range.
BTW that gun included the weight of the bipod/sling/caps etc ~ a 12lbs gun is uber light for a positional match gun when most guys are running around 20lbs, some a lot more.
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Would you share the build specs for the rifle on the tripod?
Very nice set-up.
I have to agree with Diver. Whether it's an 8 lb gun or a 12 lb gun I have it on a Kifaru Gun Bearer as even 8 lbs sucks with a sling. This way the weight is on my pack (back and hips) and I am not fussing with it in rough country.
Well my 6.5x47 rolled this cow up at 460yds this afternoon. So the PRC will only do it better this is about 15# from a guess. Was it optimal carrying it two miles? No, but doable. Can’t wait to have my carbon barrel rig going. If I had to do this often in this kind of snow I’d want a sub 10# rig, but I wouldn’t be able to shoot it as well I don’t think.
Sure, Tikka T3 Rebarreld 22' Hardy varmint profile barrel in 6.5x47 - APA brake. Manners T3 Carbon. NF 4-16 in APA rings. Sterk hardware, Timney Trigger. It's a laser beam with 130JLK's @ 2850fps.
What are the specs on this build? Looking to do a 6.5 PRC build just like it.Good looking build, i like that pattern!View attachment 6996384
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Curtis Custom Vector, Proof 24” sendero 6.5 prc, manners elite mcs-TA, Trigger tech special, Mesa M5 dbm w/ accurate mag, seekins rings, zeiss v4
Sure, if the circumstances allow. The size of the killzone, the weather conditions, and a few other factors would dictate if one would need to move closer.
A little fudge factor using a more powerfull round and higher BC bullet can make all the difference.
Going towards your point, I guess if one isn't reasonably assured one can place the first shot in the vitals, one shouldn't be pulling the trigger.
Got it back! 10.4# with mag and suppressor, no scope.
Not to derail things...but, what powder / charge is that? I’ve got a 6.5 CM w/ a 22 in bbl and the only thing it’s pushed that fast is the Hornady 129 gn SST Superformance. If I saw that velocity repeatably with 130s versus the 2550-2600 I’m seeing with 140s...well, I’m not sure a higher BC makes up for a 250+ fps head start at most ranges.
I'm running 38.7gr AR2208 (Varget). Barrel spead up nearly 120fps after the first 120 rounds. It will do 2700 with 140's. All loads are warm but do not present severe pressure signs. Work up in your rifle...yadda yadda, you know the drill.
I hunted this season with a 11.5- 12lb gun. I cant even tell you how manny ridges I hiked over, it was a solo hunt and man did I bust my butt for 5 days. I didnt even get one but I guess thats elk hunting. I will say this.... if I had a shot at 600 yards with a 6.5cm and took out one lung. Well lets just say elk arent deer. And I would probably be passed out on the mountain side long before I ever saw the elk again.
That being said Id rather shoot a harder hitting round than to chase a wounded elk up and down ridges.
I think my next revision is going to be a little lighter. What I have is a 7 rem mag but I think I'm going to get a pencil 7 saum and limit myself to 600-650 yards. I think B&C makes a mountain rifle stock. Wouldnt cost me all that much but im sure it would kill. Anyway, just my take on it.
Edit: or just get this!
That being said Id rather shoot a harder hitting round than to chase a wounded elk up and down ridges.
I think my next revision is going to be a little lighter. What I have is a 7 rem mag but I think I'm going to get a pencil 7 saum and limit myself to 600-650 yards. I think B&C makes a mountain rifle stock. Wouldnt cost me all that much but im sure it would kill. Anyway, just my take on it.
Edit: or just get this!
Attachments
How about a proven 6.5X284 with 140 Accubonds in a long action. Good BC's in the bullet. Good velocity in the cartridge. Much better than the Creedmoor or the .308. Use a Kreiger #4 barrel at 25". Light enough to carry but will shoot to 600 yds no problem.
49.5 gr H-4350, Molied 142 Accubond LR. 2950 fps good on an Antelope to 823 yds.
49.5 gr H-4350, Molied 142 Accubond LR. 2950 fps good on an Antelope to 823 yds.
Stock swap.
6.5 PRC .120 FB TS Customs
Impact
Proof 24”
Manners PRS1
Triggertech
6.5 PRC .120 FB TS Customs
Impact
Proof 24”
Manners PRS1
Triggertech
Check out the Mesa Altitude stock. I have a 22" proof sendero in one and total weight is right at 7.5 lbs with a leupold vx6 2-12 (neat little scope). While I'd rather have a 300wm for elk, this has served very well on hogs. It shoots box ammo around. 500. I have never missed an animal due to the rifle.
The Mesas are light. The lighter weight and stock shape work really well offhand. It's a nice combo on pigs.
The Mesas are light. The lighter weight and stock shape work really well offhand. It's a nice combo on pigs.
