Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

[thefitter]

Can you please tell me how you set your barrel tensioning screw? The instructions say "just touching".

I tried it with the screw "just touching", "slightly touching", "definitely touching" and removed.
The groups were pretty much all over the place no matter what I did. No consistancy from shot to shot, I'm not exagerating. One group was literally like a wide double WW directly above the 1.5" bull.

This stock is really disappointing. It actually shoots worse than the plastic SAI stock it came in.

FYI this is a SAI loaded, Sadlak Scope mount, Sadlak spring guide, SE USCG brake with a S&B PMII and using Fed GMM, Black Hills match, Hornady A-Max, LC M118LR, Fed M1A OTM and DAG.

Any ideas will be greatly appreciated!

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

I have tried screwing with it on my issue rifle and it didn't seems to do anything. I did basically the same thing, not touching, just touching and a bit of a turn, made no difference in group size. The Crane manual says it's to reduce "vertical stringing". I often wonder if the groups the rifle holds are due to the USCG brake.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Thing is that it's not "grouping" at all. If it was grouping I could dial it and work with it. Literally every shot can be 1-2" in a different spot off the bull. Then all of a sudden 2 right were I want.

You have the USCG brake also?

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Yes, the USCG really has USCG brakes...on my personal 14s, I run the standard FH.

As far as the groups, that is what I have come to expect out of a Sage stocked gun, but understand I am refering to an ISSUE rifle, built by an armory by someone I don't know. If it was my personal gun I would not be too happy.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Do you have a personal 14 in a Sage stock with a standard FH that shoots better than your issue with the USCG brake?

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Can you post a picture or two? Maybe I can spot something in the pictures.

Did you shoot the rifle before installing it in the SAGE? How did it shoot?

I have been using the SAGE chassis since 2004 and I've never had the problems you describe.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

I don't have any pics now. What area do you want the pics of?

Yes I ran 1000+ rounds prior to putting on the SAGE. I did not have these problems.

The only thing different is that I installed the SE USCG brake, Sadlak spring guide and I sent it off to SAI to have the SS barrel blackened. They had to reinstall the barrel and set head space at 1.634.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have any pics now. What area do you want the pics of?

Yes I ran 1000+ rounds prior to putting on the SAGE. I did not have these problems.

The only thing different is that I installed the SE USCG brake, Sadlak spring guide and I sent it off to SAI to have the SS barrel blackened. They had to reinstall the barrel and set head space at 1.634. </div></div>

Pictures: Shims and guide block with the top cover removed.

Did you shoot the rifle after Springfield worked on the barrel and before you installed the action in the SAGE?

Did you use shims with your traditional configuration? Are you using the same shims on the EBR or did you use new shims?

The SEI and SADLAK items should not cause any problems.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Are you able to hear the piston float freely also? AKA the tilt test? </div></div>

Passing the 'tilt-test' is critical.


Read these threads concerning M14 EBRs that have been assembled incorrectly.
http://m14hdw.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=983


.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have any pics now. What area do you want the pics of?

Yes I ran 1000+ rounds prior to putting on the SAGE. I did not have these problems.

The only thing different is that I installed the SE USCG brake, Sadlak spring guide and I sent it off to SAI to have the SS barrel blackened. They had to reinstall the barrel and set head space at 1.634. </div></div>

Pictures: Shims and guide block with the top cover removed.

<span style="color: #3366FF">I'll get some pics up when I can.</span>

Did you shoot the rifle after Springfield worked on the barrel and before you installed the action in the SAGE?

<span style="color: #3366FF">No.</span>

Did you use shims with your traditional configuration? Are you using the same shims on the EBR or did you use new shims?

<span style="color: #3366FF">Yes I did use shims before but I did not use my shims with the SAGE I used the SAGE crush washer provided.</span>

The SEI and SADLAK items should not cause any problems.

</div></div>

Yeah, I'm not sure how the break could cause this.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force. </div></div>

Try your old shims and see how it shoots.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force. </div></div>

Try your old shims and see how it shoots.</div></div>

This has me a little distressed. Esspecially after getting off the phone with John Bainer at Smith Enterprises. He told me whenever he gets a rifle from Springfield he always seems to get a surprise. Basically running into the problem of parts not matching USGI specs correctly. He Suggested getting the main parts for the rifle and have him build me a new one and just get rid of the M1A. I am on the waiting list for his new receiver but it makes me wonder about the quality control of Springfield as opposed to Smith and other M14 type rifle manufacturers adherence to USGI Spec and even their smith work... =/

Although, they do have a lifetime warranty...

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocJekyll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force. </div></div>

Try your old shims and see how it shoots.</div></div>

This has me a little distressed. Esspecially after getting off the phone with John Bainer at Smith Enterprises. He told me whenever he gets a rifle from Springfield he always seems to get a surprise. Basically running into the problem of parts not matching USGI specs correctly. He Suggested getting the main parts for the rifle and have him build me a new one and just get rid of the M1A. I am on the waiting list for his new receiver but it makes me wonder about the quality control of Springfield as opposed to Smith and other M14 type rifle manufacturers adherence to USGI Spec and even their smith work... =/

Although, they do have a lifetime warranty... </div></div>

Did not have this problem before the SAGE stock.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force. </div></div>

Try your old shims and see how it shoots. </div></div>

My old shims were to take up the slop between the gas cylinder and the front band. In the SAGE instructions it says the crush washer is to replace the thickness of the front band that is not used with the SAGE stock. You are saying swap the crush wsaher for the shims?

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Yes, go back to shims and see how it shoots.

SEI recently completed my new M14 EBR-RINM-SEI rifle and they used shims.
I recently re-installed MK14 SEI barreled action in my Mod 1 stock, I had problems with the
crush washer... these problems evaporated when I replaced the crush washer with my old shims.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, go back to shims and see how it shoots.

SEI recently completed my new M14 EBR-RINM-SEI rifle and they used shims.
I recently re-installed MK14 SEI barreled action in my Mod 1 stock, I had problems with the
crush washer... these problems evaporated when I replaced the crush washer with my old shims. </div></div>

I will give it a try. Anything I should do specifically when using shims? I believe I have a package of 4. As long as everything is tight and the gas port is aligned I assume I will be OK.

 

[DocJekyll]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DocJekyll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: H2O MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tilt test is good. I do think I have some op rod drag with the hand guard. I'm also going to pull off the gas cylinder. When I installed it I had to use a lot of force to tighten the gas cylinder lock down. I'm wondering if there is too much tension in that area. The crush washer from SAGE should have custom formed to my barrel/cylinder now and I bet if I remove and reinstall now I won't have to use so much force. </div></div>

Try your old shims and see how it shoots.</div></div>

This has me a little distressed. Esspecially after getting off the phone with John Bainer at Smith Enterprises. He told me whenever he gets a rifle from Springfield he always seems to get a surprise. Basically running into the problem of parts not matching USGI specs correctly. He Suggested getting the main parts for the rifle and have him build me a new one and just get rid of the M1A. I am on the waiting list for his new receiver but it makes me wonder about the quality control of Springfield as opposed to Smith and other M14 type rifle manufacturers adherence to USGI Spec and even their smith work... =/

Although, they do have a lifetime warranty... </div></div>

Did not have this problem before the SAGE stock. </div></div>

I was thinking more from the lines of Springfield doing something to your rifle pre SAGE. I just got mine and it increased the accuracy. However, H20 is right, I used the original shims.

 

[thefitter]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

Here are pics of the gas cylinder.

I took out the crush washer and installed my shims. It took all 4 shims to get the gas port to line up. But the shims move freely and I can't get the gas cylinder lock tight. It stops at 10:00. ***EDIT: It stops at 7:00 now I flipped it over.***

If I remove one shim and force the gas lock around until it's aligned the gas port will be off. I have to have the gas port aligned so the shims will be a little loose and so will the gas lock.

 

[1Sg (ret)]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

I had a sage stock. i could not get it to shoot either.The stock was cool as hell but would not shoot for crap.I got rid of it.The instructions stated that the military standard was 7 or 8 inches @ 100. i didnt buy that.I have messed with M1As for years and its hard to find a scout that shoots as good as a 22In barrel.just my opinion.

 

[USCG Flyer]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1Sg (ret)</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a sage stock. i could not get it to shoot either.The stock was cool as hell but would not shoot for crap.I got rid of it.The instructions stated that the military standard was 7 or 8 inches @ 100. i didnt buy that.I have messed with M1As for years and its hard to find a scout that shoots as good as a 22In barrel.just my opinion. </div></div>

In the documentation from Crane, it states an accuracy spec of 2.5 MOA if recall correctly.

Fitter,
I have some tech stuff from the armorer course, I'll take a look into it and see what I can find. One thing I didn't see mentioned in any post was checking the roll pin in the block for play and check the 65 inch lb screws.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: Need help from M1A/M14 Sage Stock owners!

I don't use the roll pin at all in any of my EBRs.
It's use is optional and I find it unnecessary.

Sub MOA and 1 to 1.5 MOA are the norm with my SEI builds.
CRANE builds are not known for their tight groups.