Need some 2A history regarding ATF/NFA for a podcast ep.

[BLKWLFK9]

Ok. Obviously, being in this industry, i know most of the ends and outs of what we all deal with every day regarding gov overreach and 2A infringements but i need some specific help.

Im having a guy come on the podcast that has a pretty big racing/tuning/horsepower youtube channel. In his live videos/discussions with the viewers, he discusses the latest tyranny that the automotive industry is experiencing from the EPA. He is VERY vocal about this and is very educated in what the EPA is doing b/c it directly effects what he does for a living (tuning for Lund Racing). He knows there is a pretty strong parallel from what the 2A community deals with and what the aftermarket tuning industry is now experiencing. He wants to know more about those parallels in great detail to maybe see whats coming in the future from the EPA. Basically, the actual ECU tuning product that Lund uses has been deemed illegal to manufacture (the Ngauge is the product). Lund racing literally got raided by the EPA not too long ago. Like, guns out, door kickers, the works.. The EPA has been greatly weaponized, just like the ATF and IRS. Obviously, SBR's, cans, etc. are heavily regulated and i know the in's and out's of that whole process but anything else that I may be missing, i know you guys can flood me with facts to bring up in our show.

Any and all info/opinions would be appreciated.

Side note: If you want to check him out, his name and youtube channel is Alejandro Flores. He's been doing the youtube thing for years and his live videos are fucking hilarious. He's way funnier than me.. He's also wanting me to spin him up on the podcast thing so he can decide if thats something he wants to add to his platform. Pretty cool.

Thanks guys. I love having the SH community to lean on when i need it.

Now... SEND IT!

@lowlight @TheGerman @TxWelder35 @Feniks Technologies @brianf @Enough Said @sirhrmechanic
@pmclaine

 

[MK20]

Just read

Unintended Consequences

That Every Man Be Armed

Gateway to Tyranny


If you read those three you will literally be one of the most informed people on gun rights history in the US.

 

[MK20]

For example, did you know that in US v. Miller, the case at the Supreme Court that upheld the NFA, the govt won because the other side never showed up?

And in the decision the govt was ruled for because the defense had not showed (because they were not there) that a short barreled shotgun had a military application. Thus ruling that if a firearm has a military application it is protected under the second ammendment.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Just read

Unintended Consequences

That Every Man Be Armed

Gateway to Tyranny


If you read those three you will literally be one of the most informed people on gun rights history in the US.

Understood but im looking for bullet points, i guess. lol, we are recording the show this weekend.

 

[MK20]

Did you know that Sen. Frank Dodd had the library of congress translate from the original German a ream of Nazi weapons laws into English just a few months before he wrote the 1968 Gun Control Act?

The same act where if you compare it word for word to the Nazi laws it is literally identical in many places, or identical except for minor changes that make no substantial difference.

Hell of a coincidence, huh?

 

[MK20]

I'll dig through my books after work and send you excerpts.

Some are literally unbelievably evil on the govt's part.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I’ll see what I can come up with this afternoon.

The Hughes Amendment might be a better target for podcast. NFA is probably Constutuonal as It is a tax. And today, the $200 tax is not high enough to deter acquisition of an NVA device.

The Hughes amendment banning manufacture almost certainly IS unconstitutional and could much more easily be overturned.

In a fair world, both should be eliminated. But Hughes is probably the low-hanging fruit.

Sirhr

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I'll dig through my books after work and send you excerpts.

Some are literally unbelievably evil on the govt's part.

Awesome. Need mostly current day stuff and/or recent history as how it could relate to what the EPA is currently doing with their overreach and weaponization of their department.

 

[91Eunozs]

Did you know that Sen. Frank Dodd had the library of congress translate from the original German a ream of Nazi weapons laws into English just a few months before he wrote the 1968 Gun Control Act?

The same act where if you compare it word for word to the Nazi laws it is literally identical in many places, or identical except for minor changes that make no substantial difference.

Hell of a coincidence, huh?

…and in an ironic twist, the Nazis got many of their ideas from the US Democratic Party-led institutional racism of the early 20th century, as well as the basic pillars of eventually became “The Great Society” decades later, but codified and developed in the 1920s and ‘30s.

edit: Try to find an English translation of Heinrich Krieger’s Das Rassenrecht in den Vereingten Staaten published in 1936…it lays out many of the formative ideas behind what became the Nazi party in Germany.

The parallels with modern-day Democrats and their new bible “Rules for Radicals” (the next step of the great society) should have everyone who loves what The Constitution stands for literally up in arms (see how I tied it back to the 2nd Amendment? ;-)

 

[UKDslayer]

There's some good articles on a search of "History of the ATF" - most can't be share by an email link though; I don't do FB or those other forums, but a lot of basic articles on history.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Some relevant SCOTUS/2A cases:

District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)​

The Supreme Court handed Heller a vistory. Richard Heller challenged the District’s law banning virtually all handguns on Second Amendment grounds. The Court agreed with Heller, finding the ban unconstitutional and holding that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep suitable weapons at home for self-defense unconnected to militia service.

In 2008, the Supreme Court did something it had not done in seventy years: it ruled on the meaning of the Second Amendment. Furthermore, District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) was the first time the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment in terms of what it meant for an individual’s right to possess weapons for private uses such as self-defense.

The District of Columbia had one of the strictest gun laws in the country. It included a ban on virtually all handguns. Furthermore, long guns had to be kept unloaded, and disassembled or trigger-locked. Richard Heller believed the law made it impossible for him to defend himself in his home. He also believed that the law violated the Second Amendment

The Heller case meant that you had a right to possess weapons inside your home.

McDonald


The Chicago ordinance challenged in McDonald prohibits a person from possessing “any firearm unless such person is the holder of a valid registration certificate for such firearm” (Chicago, Ill., Municipal Code § 8-20-040(a)(2009)). But the code prohibits registration of most handguns (Chicago, Ill., Municipal Code § 8-20-050(c)(2009)). It thus effectively bans handgun possession by almost all private citizens who live in the city. The ordinances are substantively similar to the ones the Court struck down in Heller, holding that the 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense.


After Heller, some Chicago residents, some of whom had been crime victims, filed a federal suit against the city. They alleged that the handgun ban left them exposed to criminals and sought a declaration that the ban and several related Chicago ordinances violated the 2nd and 14th Amendments. The city countered that the ordinances were constitutional because the 2nd Amendment did not apply to states. Citing Supreme Court precedent that had upheld Chicago handgun laws as legal and noting that Heller had explicitly refrained from saying whether the 2nd Amendment applied to the states, the federal district court rejected plaintiffs' arguments and the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed. The petitioners then asked the Supreme Court to hear their case.

The central question before the Court, in McDonald, was whether the right to bear arms was a fundamental right protected by the constitution and therefore applicable to the states. The Court held that the 2nd Amendment's guarantee of an individual right to bear arms applies to state and local gun control laws.

Bruen

On June 23, the Supreme Court of the United States handed down its decision in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen, overturning a New York gun safety law. The Court ruled that New York’s law requiring a license to carry concealed weapons in public places is unconstitutional. The Bruen decision extended Heller to "outside of the home." Now it did say that sensitive places could be off limits. "Sensitive" would include a gov't building, not necessarily a church - but it was sort of left open.

Bruen is worth a read.


Push back:

NY's Governor - Hochul, didn't like the Bruen ruling and is pushing back declaring places sensitive and making ownership and possession onerous.

She is basically "flipping the bird" to SCOTUS. Frustrating, as the court's intent was clear, but some people won't listen and her actions will have to work their way through the courts.

"New York is leading the way in the fight to reduce gun violence and save lives," said Lieutenant Governor Antonio Delgado. We want to ensure that all members of our communities are safe, and these new conceal and carry laws will help prevent tragedies by ensuring that gun owners are properly trained, that safety measures are promoted and that firearms are not carried into sensitive locations."

Governor Hochul also announced new permitting and minimum age requirements related to ownership of semiautomatic rifles taking effect Sunday, September 4, 2022. After that date, an individual must be at least 21 years old and have a permit prior to purchasing or taking possession of a semiautomatic rifle. Licenses are not required for individuals who possessed semiautomatic rifles before September 4, 2022.


So Hochul is your overreach, what she is doing will be ruled illegal/unconstitutional, but citizens in her state are pawns in the interim

 

[NoDopes]

talking about how courts are starting to properly real in government agencies creating new laws.

Damien Schiff discusses Sackett v. EPA with Matt Lewis

PLF senior attorney Damien Schiff joined the Matt Lewis and the News podcast to talk about Sackett v. EPA.

pacificlegal.org

Supreme Court restricts EPA's ability to go big on climate

The first environmental ruling from the court's new conservative majority shows that justices believe EPA overstepped its boundaries when it tried to push

www.eenews.net

 

[david walter]

This.

Just read

Unintended Consequences

That Every Man Be Armed

Gateway to Tyranny


If you read those three you will literally be one of the most informed people on gun rights history in the US.

 

[TxWelder35]

I’ll see what I can come up with this afternoon.

The Hughes Amendment might be a better target for podcast. NFA is probably Constutuonal as It is a tax. And today, the $200 tax is not high enough to deter acquisition of an NVA device.

The Hughes amendment banning manufacture almost certainly IS unconstitutional and could much more easily be overturned.

In a fair world, both should be eliminated. But Hughes is probably the low-hanging fruit.

Sirhr

The NFA fails constitutionally on every merit. You can not tax a right. Hence why a poll tax was unconstitutional.

It also fails the new Bruen test.


There are a couple court cases working their way through right now that challenge the NFA.

 

[Lowlight]

I actually just watched a video with street racers, and they raided the fuck out of a guy for the videos. They say he endangers his passengers by recklessly driving and the raid they fuck out of them for past videos.

The car people created a big enforcement industry by showing what they do. Even in sanctioned events the videos are used if people are around.

I can say we tend to follow the rules pretty tightly. The only raids I have seen are suppressed guys not follow the paperwork trail. Like the dude hanging out cans to competition guys.

There were some AR company raids but again paper trail

The magazine bans will Creep up like at cameo but rarely get enforced. But it happens.

Class 3 is your quickest way to trouble

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The NFA fails constitutionally on every merit. You can not tax a right. Hence why a poll tax was unconstitutional.

It also fails the new Bruen test.


There are a couple court cases working their way through right now that challenge the NFA.

Excellent point!!!

Poll tax is a very good precedent that I had not considered. And you are correct about taxing a right.

Thanks for the steer!

Sirhr

 

[6.5SH]

Did you know that Sen. Frank Dodd had the library of congress translate from the original German a ream of Nazi weapons laws into English just a few months before he wrote the 1968 Gun Control Act?

The same act where if you compare it word for word to the Nazi laws it is literally identical in many places, or identical except for minor changes that make no substantial difference.

Hell of a coincidence, huh?

"Gun Control's" Nazi Connection

America's Most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership

jpfo.org

Good summary there. Their book with both of them side by side really drives the point home though.

 

[WaltHer]

Downloadable article: The Peculiar Story of US v Miller. Brian Frye, U Ken College of Law.

Obviously more on the Miller side, not NFA or ATF. However, there are some important legal positions in it since Miller sets the precedent.

The Peculiar Story of United States v. Miller

On April 18, 1938, the Arkansas and Oklahoma state police stopped Jack Miller and Frank Layton, two washed-up Oklahoma bank robbers. Miller and Layton had an unregistered sawed-off shotgun, so the police arrested them for violating the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). Surprisingly, the district...

uknowledge.uky.edu

"This essay concludes that Miller is coherent, but largely irrelevant to the contemporary debate over the meaning of the Second Amendment. Miller was a Second Amendment test case, teed up with a nominal defendant by a district judge sympathetic to New Deal gun control measures. But the Supreme Court issued a surprisingly narrow decision. Essentially, it held that the Second Amendment permits Congress to tax firearms used by criminals. While dicta suggest the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess and use a weapon suitable for militia service, dicta are not precedent. In other words, Miller did not adopt a theory of the Second Amendment guarantee, because it did not need one."

 

[TheGerman]

I'm more on the gangster side of the firearms industry as far as knowledge. However, I bet you could go down the epic rabbithole on not only how stupid ITAR is, but the irony of our .gov and how they basically tell everyone to do one thing while they do the exact opposite.

Two great examples on different ends of this spectrum are:

ITAR in general for your average US citizen vs. what we willingly left in Afghanistan (and 50 other places). That argument alone should end ITAR.

Outdated regulations that are still in effect with penalties, but on face value are laughably retarded. Example: ITAR states a non US citizen cannot even look through current gen night vision. This was something done in basically the 80s when NV was not a thing non .mil could get ahold of. That has vastly changed, yet, no updates to anything on a set of regulations that the Dept of State basically decrees.

 

[carbonbased]

Downloadable article: The Peculiar Story of US v Miller. Brian Frye, U Ken College of Law.

Obviously more on the Miller side, not NFA or ATF. However, there are some important legal positions in it since Miller sets the precedent.

The Peculiar Story of United States v. Miller

On April 18, 1938, the Arkansas and Oklahoma state police stopped Jack Miller and Frank Layton, two washed-up Oklahoma bank robbers. Miller and Layton had an unregistered sawed-off shotgun, so the police arrested them for violating the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). Surprisingly, the district...

uknowledge.uky.edu

"This essay concludes that Miller is coherent, but largely irrelevant to the contemporary debate over the meaning of the Second Amendment. Miller was a Second Amendment test case, teed up with a nominal defendant by a district judge sympathetic to New Deal gun control measures. But the Supreme Court issued a surprisingly narrow decision. Essentially, it held that the Second Amendment permits Congress to tax firearms used by criminals. While dicta suggest the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess and use a weapon suitable for militia service, dicta are not precedent. In other words, Miller did not adopt a theory of the Second Amendment guarantee, because it did not need one."

Interesting. Make sure you download the pdf which goes into detail. Wikipedia has a good summary on why there was no defense present at the Supreme Court case.

United States v. Miller - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I quote:

In reality, the district court judge was in favor of the gun control law and ruled the law unconstitutional because he knew that Miller, who was a known bank robber and had just testified against the rest of his gang in court, would have to go into hiding as soon as he was released. He knew that Miller would not pay a lawyer to argue the case at the Supreme Court and would simply disappear. Therefore, the government's appeal to the Supreme Court would surely be a victory because Miller and his attorney would not even be present at the argument.​

 

[MK20]

I’ll see what I can come up with this afternoon.

The Hughes Amendment might be a better target for podcast. NFA is probably Constutuonal as It is a tax. And today, the $200 tax is not high enough to deter acquisition of an NVA device.

The Hughes amendment banning manufacture almost certainly IS unconstitutional and could much more easily be overturned.

In a fair world, both should be eliminated. But Hughes is probably the low-hanging fruit.

Sirhr

Excellent point!!!

Poll tax is a very good precedent that I had not considered. And you are correct about taxing a right.

Thanks for the steer!

Sirhr

Yep. The SC has clearly ruled that it is unconstitutional to tax a right.

 

[LilGucci]

The Department of Education have their own swat team.

In the car world, the big fear is climate change and that we're not moving fast enough to deal with it. So that is the pretense to go after any carbon-heavy activity, that they're doing it in the name of the planet and public safety.

 

[MK20]

Well, just look at the brace ruling today.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

What the cops busted them for was racing, not how their cars were built or what was on or off them (cats). The guys you were talking about are brothers. 1 got "swatted" which is a term for when someone reports you (typically bc they don't like you or something) for some type of crime in hopes that your shit gets raided. They got that guy for street racing videos that showed exit signs, landmarks, etc, along with his rate of speed. The other brother later got hymned up for a video that was older where he did a pull on the street by himself but showed the speed as well. It was a different charge due to him not actually racing anyone. That is silly too but not the problem that we have with the EPA. They're going after manufacturers and performance shops over a product and a service. The closest thing I can think of is the RareBreed (whatever it's called) trigger and bumpfire stocks.

I actually just watched a video with street racers, and they raided the fuck out of a guy for the videos. They say he endangers his passengers by recklessly driving and the raid they fuck out of them for past videos.



The car people created a big enforcement industry by showing what they do. Even in sanctioned events the videos are used if people are around.



I can say we tend to follow the rules pretty tightly. The only raids I have seen are suppressed guys not follow the paperwork trail. Like the dude hanging out cans to competition guys.



There were some AR company raids but again paper trail



The magazine bans will Creep up like at cameo but rarely get enforced. But it happens.



Class 3 is your quickest way to trouble

 

[Lowlight]

What the cops busted them for was racing, not how their cars were built or what was on or off them (cats). The guys you were talking about are brothers. 1 got "swatted" which is a term for when someone reports you (typically bc they don't like you or something) for some type of crime in hopes that your shit gets raided. They got that guy for street racing videos that showed exit signs, landmarks, etc, along with his rate of speed. The other brother later got hymned up for a video that was older where he did a pull on the street by himself but showed the speed as well. It was a different charge due to him not actually racing anyone. That is silly too but not the problem that we have with the EPA. They're going after manufacturers and performance shops over a product and a service. The closest thing I can think of is the RareBreed (whatever it's called) trigger and bumpfire stocks.

Actually no, they were at a sanctioned event and the one guy got nailed for Endangering his Passengers for reckless driving even though it was a permitted event.

He was burning out and such. It wasn’t a street race thing the one I saw. But they were going back in time nailing these guys for older videos.

This one guy was sorta smirking at them but never getting nailed so they invented passenger endangerment, this guy I believe was even featured by Dodge in a Hellcat thing.

 

[MK20]

look at how the ATF now is going to guys doors based on a Multiple Sale Report which is nothing more than where a guy buys multiple guns on the same day and badgering him to see his guns to "prove his innocence".

When dude smartly tells them to get fucked they imply that they will now be watching him to catch him in anything he fucks up on.

Back during the Clinton years the ATF was going around at gunshows and planting illegal items on tables to round up people they didnt like but didnt have anything on.

Need I mention how they entrapped a guy into sawing a shotgun 1/4 inch too short on the barrel and then shot his unarmed wife in his house while she was holding an infant?


























@BLKWLFK9 here is a short list for you with better descriptions than I could ever write here and these are all recent. This type of shit has been going back to 1934 and while your racing friend is very upset about the infringments on his racing, it should be made known to him that our community is literally coming up on 100 years of shit from the US govt.

 

[Sirshredalot]

This.

Yes, but holy shit, those books are pricey.

 

[_Windrider_]

I’ll see what I can come up with this afternoon.

The Hughes Amendment might be a better target for podcast. NFA is probably Constutuonal as It is a tax. And today, the $200 tax is not high enough to deter acquisition of an NVA device.

The Hughes amendment banning manufacture almost certainly IS unconstitutional and could much more easily be overturned.

In a fair world, both should be eliminated. But Hughes is probably the low-hanging fruit.

Sirhr

But did the bill that became the NFA start in the House of Representatives? If it did not, than it would be unconstitutional as all tax laws must be born in the house.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

But did the bill that became the NFA start in the House of Representatives? If it did not, than it would be unconstitutional as all tax laws must be born in the house.

Almost certainly started in the White House with Roosevelt zealots. Or perhaps a young J. Edgar who was trying to impose law and order during the gangster 1930’s.

The 1920’s had been bad enough. The Roaring ‘20’s moniker has been attributed to the Thompson Gun. But the real push came in the 1930’s to find a way to disarm the likes of Dillinger, Nelson, Carpis, Bonnie and Clyde and the like. They were preying on Small town American banks with automatic weapons including BAR’s. And there was a public outcry to make it stop.

Never would have happened under non-interventionist Hoover. But Rooosevelt was all about executive power and while the courts slapped most of his New Deal legislation down, they never touched the NFA.

One of the tacks that can be taken on this podcast is to look at the NFA as one of dozens of New Deal programs that were utter Constitutional over-reaches. And were mostly slapped down.

But Roosevelt (mostly his minions) were largely hard core socialists. They saw their chance and grabbed it. Roosevelt was the rich front guy who went along with it to be liked and show he was doing something.

In this context, damn near every piece of social engineering legislation from NFA to the alphabets to social Security can be seen as Unconstitutional.

But most are big giveaway entitlements and the “entitled generations” that grew out of the ‘30’s will never let them go away. And Congress is happy to bribe people with their own money. To quote DeToqueville. So the over reach is ensconced by a welfare society which will take your money and your freedoms because they have no money and don’t give a shit about freedoms if their gummint cheese comes in on time. And will happily let your freedoms get trampled because, simply put, they are jealous or want to inflict their pain and sloth on the motivated.

So there is one angle you may want to pursue.

Sirhr

 

[Blue Sky Country]

New York City's Sullivan Law of 1911, which is still the city's primary gun license law in effect today, was a direct product of organized crime's control of the city's politics. By 1910, the Irish Mafia, who had fought in the gritty streets with other gangs for over 50 years for control over the city's rackets, had assumed control of most of the city's infrastructure, with mob connected politicians and commissioners appointed to the police, fire, sanitation, and transportation departments. Also in 1910, a notorious shooting took place on the city's Lower East Side where a young woman named Elsie Sigel, granddaughter of Civil War Union general Franz Sigel, was found dead in the back of a Chinatown delivery truck. She had been dating a hitman and enforcer for the Chinese Triad and it was believed that the Triad had her taken out because she might have been a witness to an earlier killing where a group of Triads, her boyfriend included among them, had gunned down an Italian gangster during the Triad-Sicilian conflict for control over the Lower East Side and Chelsea.