Need some guidance on 308 load using 175's

[Mr Tibbs]

It‘s Has the same effect as firing full powder loads in a 2 1/2 inch snub nose 357,41,44 magnum that big fire ball ,is powder that wasn’t burned in the barrel.
That big fire ball is reduced with a longer 6 inch barrel revolver

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Guess I'll add my $.02.

I load primarily in LC and Federal brass and use Fed 210's. I haven't loaded as many 175's as some here, but somewhere north of 10k pcs in the last 20 years.

My Varget loads have always fallen in the vicinity of 43.5 grains, no matter the bolt gun I have at the time.

H4895 loads have always fallen between 41.5 - 42 grains.

Col has varied between 2.775 - 2.810 inches.

If something in these ranges didn't shoot, then it wasn't the load's fault.

 

[USMC-FURY]

Rifle is a Bergara HMR Pro in 308. Barrel today now has exactly 115 rounds. I've been running Berger 175 OTM and Nosler 175 RDF over Varget in virgin Lapua and once fired Federal Match brass.

I have yet to find a 5 shot group under .769" and that was the best I've had out of several. Most were above 1 MOA and some into the 1.5-1.8 MOA. I know this rifle can do better. I know I am capable of .305"-.033" 5 shot groups with my HMR in 6.5, so I'm a little worried about this rifle.

I've worked seating depths up and down from mag length to the standard 2.800" COAL. Not finding anything so far that justifies the 1680 and change I have into the rifle.

Twist is 1-10 with a 20" barrel. Should I try a different bullet in 175 or try a different weight. I've read that the 155.5 Freebores and 185 Juggernauts (sp) have been very good over Varget. Twist rates/bullet weights seem to be all over the place opinion wise.

Any guidance would be very helpful and appreciated. Each of my 5 shot groups were chrono'd as well. I have some strings of single digits SD's but working up and down in .002" increments and .2 grain increments seem to get stupid wide on paper and in SD.

Thanks in advance

Different rifles like Different powder n bullets try 168gr 190gr and 200gr you have a 20 inch barrel so try some CFE223 and AR-COMP. I recommend Winchester headstamp brass it has an extra 2gr H20 capacity. Its the only brass I use!

 

[Rick7353]

Rifle is a Bergara HMR Pro in 308. Barrel today now has exactly 115 rounds. I've been running Berger 175 OTM and Nosler 175 RDF over Varget in virgin Lapua and once fired Federal Match brass.

I have yet to find a 5 shot group under .769" and that was the best I've had out of several. Most were above 1 MOA and some into the 1.5-1.8 MOA. I know this rifle can do better. I know I am capable of .305"-.033" 5 shot groups with my HMR in 6.5, so I'm a little worried about this rifle.

I've worked seating depths up and down from mag length to the standard 2.800" COAL. Not finding anything so far that justifies the 1680 and change I have into the rifle.

Twist is 1-10 with a 20" barrel. Should I try a different bullet in 175 or try a different weight. I've read that the 155.5 Freebores and 185 Juggernauts (sp) have been very good over Varget. Twist rates/bullet weights seem to be all over the place opinion wise.

Any guidance would be very helpful and appreciated. Each of my 5 shot groups were chrono'd as well. I have some strings of single digits SD's but working up and down in .002" increments and .2 grain increments seem to get stupid wide on paper and in SD.

Thanks in advance

I had a custom .remember 700 built in.308. It did shoot way better than me. I caught myself flinching with it vs my 6.5 cm. Practice trigger time with no live ammo. Get back to basic form. I also had my timne u cal b in elite way to light to where I concentrated more on the trigger than I should have. I took my silent bbl off and put on a 6.5x47 lapua. I gave my custom 300 win mag to my son.

 

[jc2]

Rifle is a Bergara HMR Pro in 308. Barrel today now has exactly 115 rounds. I've been running Berger 175 OTM and Nosler 175 RDF over Varget in virgin Lapua and once fired Federal Match brass.

I have yet to find a 5 shot group under .769" and that was the best I've had out of several. Most were above 1 MOA and some into the 1.5-1.8 MOA. I know this rifle can do better. I know I am capable of .305"-.033" 5 shot groups with my HMR in 6.5, so I'm a little worried about this rifle.

I've worked seating depths up and down from mag length to the standard 2.800" COAL. Not finding anything so far that justifies the 1680 and change I have into the rifle.

Twist is 1-10 with a 20" barrel. Should I try a different bullet in 175 or try a different weight. I've read that the 155.5 Freebores and 185 Juggernauts (sp) have been very good over Varget. Twist rates/bullet weights seem to be all over the place opinion wise.

Any guidance would be very helpful and appreciated. Each of my 5 shot groups were chrono'd as well. I have some strings of single digits SD's but working up and down in .002" increments and .2 grain increments seem to get stupid wide on paper and in SD.

Thanks in advance

Hey rockchalk06 I run 168 Bergers in my M700, 1/10" twist also. Got good results at 100 yds on initial testing. Haven't been back out to shoot a little different CBTO yet(so it'll fit in a mag well). But here are the results. 100 yds, 40 thousands off the lands, 5 shots, Lapua brass (virgin and resized). WLR primers, Vv N550 powder. 4 in one hole and a screwup on one(threw results out since still working on load). maybe give it a try. Yesoffset is on purpose.

 

[Bayoubigcat]

Rifle is a Bergara HMR Pro in 308. Barrel today now has exactly 115 rounds. I've been running Berger 175 OTM and Nosler 175 RDF over Varget in virgin Lapua and once fired Federal Match brass.

I have yet to find a 5 shot group under .769" and that was the best I've had out of several. Most were above 1 MOA and some into the 1.5-1.8 MOA. I know this rifle can do better. I know I am capable of .305"-.033" 5 shot groups with my HMR in 6.5, so I'm a little worried about this rifle.

I've worked seating depths up and down from mag length to the standard 2.800" COAL. Not finding anything so far that justifies the 1680 and change I have into the rifle.

Twist is 1-10 with a 20" barrel. Should I try a different bullet in 175 or try a different weight. I've read that the 155.5 Freebores and 185 Juggernauts (sp) have been very good over Varget. Twist rates/bullet weights seem to be all over the place opinion wise.

Any guidance would be very helpful and appreciated. Each of my 5 shot groups were chrono'd as well. I have some strings of single digits SD's but working up and down in .002" increments and .2 grain increments seem to get stupid wide on paper and in SD.

Thanks in advance

By chance you hanging a magnetospeed, or anything else for that matter, on the muzzle?

 

[Dave62677]

I spent over 2 years for reloading 308 Ammo and none of my reload can match the 168gr federal match. The best I can do is .4 moa of my reload. I tried match the federal muzzle velocity, seating depth, case headspace, bullet runout.... still not working and I just gave up.

First pic was shot with factory AXMC

2nd pic was shot with trued r700 pacnor match bbl

 

[rockchalk06]

By chance you hanging a magnetospeed, or anything else for that matter, on the muzzle?

No sir. Chrono is 6-7 yards off the muzzle

 

[Bayoubigcat]

No sir. Chrono is 6-7 yards off the muzzle

Maybe it’s a Monday Gun...

Hopefully powder/bullet/primer testing will get it shooting better. Best of luck.

Also, typically barrels will speed up or “break in” in the first 100-300 rounds (depending on the barrel). I generally hold off on any load development until she’s settled in (ie you may want to retest some promising loads previously tested).

 

[gunsnjeeps]

My question was going to be how factory ammo does. I load most of my own but every so often it helps to eliminate a variable. For example if I can't get a consistent group I'll try FGGM or BHM. Then start to play with a copy of it.

 

[calshipbuilder]

175 OTM in lapua brass under varget is very difficult to make shoot poorly. I'd focus on your own precision, and if that doesn't improve with time, spin on a different barrel.

 

[calshipbuilder]

Whatever @1J04

Quit being a spoil sport.
I fill mine to the top of the case mouth with Varget, then use a dowel I made to smash it down, then seat my bullet.
And use a MG kinda crimp.

Shoots awesome!!

When I want a little extra OOMF I use magnum primers and sprinkle in a little Longshot powder to speed things up.

Dont be all grumpy cause your afraid to try new things!!!

You must shoot F-TR ;-)

 

[Don Dial]

Rifle is a Bergara HMR Pro in 308. Barrel today now has exactly 115 rounds. I've been running Berger 175 OTM and Nosler 175 RDF over Varget in virgin Lapua and once fired Federal Match brass.

I have yet to find a 5 shot group under .769" and that was the best I've had out of several. Most were above 1 MOA and some into the 1.5-1.8 MOA. I know this rifle can do better. I know I am capable of .305"-.033" 5 shot groups with my HMR in 6.5, so I'm a little worried about this rifle.

I've worked seating depths up and down from mag length to the standard 2.800" COAL. Not finding anything so far that justifies the 1680 and change I have into the rifle.

Twist is 1-10 with a 20" barrel. Should I try a different bullet in 175 or try a different weight. I've read that the 155.5 Freebores and 185 Juggernauts (sp) have been very good over Varget. Twist rates/bullet weights seem to be all over the place opinion wise.

Any guidance would be very helpful and appreciated. Each of my 5 shot groups were chrono'd as well. I have some strings of single digits SD's but working up and down in .002" increments and .2 grain increments seem to get stupid wide on paper and in SD.

Thanks in advance

I get excellent results with Varget on most loads 165-168 Gr Barnes 45.5 Gr Varget but with 175 Gr SMK or Berger I use 42.0 Gr IMR 4064.

 

[308pirate]

I've never used 4350, but will put that on the list.

I hope he meant IMR4895 because neither H4350 nor IMR4350 appear under the list of powders for 308/175 in Hodgdon's reloading manual.

While I am not opposed to carefully going slightly over book max with a listed powder for a cartridge/bullet combination, substituting a completely different powder that isn't even listed in the mfg's load manual for the cartridge your reloading is a big NEGATIVE.

 

[squib-load]

there is some ok advice here, some bad.. some flat out will likely get you injured.. there is no shortcuts in reloading if you want to do it safe AND find a load that will shoot in your rifle.. start from scratch and work everything up


1> use a known good and widely accepted as accurate in all but the most strange rifles.. FGMM 168 is literally the gold standard here...
in a off the shelf rem 700 20" 1/12 which is almost the same as your rifle was a sub 1/2 MOA load regularly if you get wild fliers with that load... its likely the trigger puller or you have a mechanical with the setup. I will list those at the bottom

I found the Nosler 175 RDF to be a very poorly manufactured bullet.. huge variation in bullet dimensions and just flat would not shoot in my 20" or 24" and the 24" was a schneider barreled hammer that would shoot FGMM into a dime. 20 round groups

berger by comparison is a fine bullet and they for me have always been practically identical not just in box but between lots... but most bergers require a good workup and somewhat jump sensitive .. even the hybrids.. again.. if you are having issues.. I would back away from .50 cent a shot experimentation and find out if you have a mechanical issue with .30 cent bullets like 168 or 175 SMK which just flat out are more tolerant

2> you are running a 20" barrel and from someone that would shoot FTR at 1000 with one just for giggles and shoot in the 170s/180s I will tell you what works and what doesnt
first, you will never run (velocity or max loads) like the FTR crowd so dont try. you have a 20" piston and they are running 30+" .. its like taking a 4 cylinder engine to the drag strip and expect to run it like purpose built alcohol fueled rig.. it aint gonna happen. your barrel is to short for: AND you have a hammer forged factory barrel .. not a hand lapped match barrel.. and while they have a good rep.. hammer forged barrels can still have rough spots, have residual stress in the steel, etc..

a running a 175 north of 2600ish .. you are getting into dangerous spike pressures AND you will have lots of exit pressure pushing your bullet around you are now trading accuracy for velocity . and it's a fool errand

b running 155s or below at decent velocity due again to not having enough pipe to burn all the propellant to get it moving stick with 168 to 175 for starters.. some have gotten 185s to run in 20" rigs BUT it takes tuning and right now you dont know what your rig is capable of 155s were designed for palma shooters running 32" barrels

c slow powders.. I tried Varget in 20" and it wasn't as fast or accurate as IMR 4064.. with 20" AND 175/168 you can go down the ladder (faster) a bit as well

d> case capacity .. Lapua cases were specifically designed for competition shooters and tuned for 45+ loads of Varget for the guys running 30"+ pipes to burn it. I have had much better accuracy loading for my 20" in LC LR brass or the NEW Federal brass.. either FC XX (xx being a 2 digit) military brass or FGMM brass.. they all weigh about the same .. and their case capacities are tuned for shorter barrels

2> if you dont want to invest in 100 rounds of a quality factory loaded match ammo to test... then
WORKING UP
index loads in the low 43ish grains of 4064 are for 175 SMK and fairly closely match FGMM just a bit more for 168s.. there is a even lighter load in the high 41s as well that is supper accurate but anemic velocity
if you still want to burn Varget you are better off in the lower node somewhere below 44g and even then if you have a 'loose' barrel might not get a good full burn

mechanical issues...
most people think about the typical stuff
loose action screws
loose scope base or for that matter a scope not holding zero..
not floating fully.. and if designed with a pressure pad, not keeping identical pressure on it when firing ..
add to that.. manufacturing issues
barrel tenon or threads to action not square
headspacing
freebore or other chamber irregularities
rough or inconsistent bore dimensions ..
the list goes on

internal ballistics is a voodoo that even the military labs at the Army's aberdeen lab can't fully explain and they have been researching it for decades but essentially the comparison to tuning a load to a barrel is VERY much like tuning a internal combustion engine .. at least for the burn part.. vibration, harmonics, barrel plasticity that are huge players in repeatable accuracy however is not a burn ratio issue.. and this is where things get messy and again.. some barrels have it many do not...

have reasonable expectations for a factory hammered barrel... you may never find a load that shoots better than an inch.. and a couple years ago people thought they had a real shooter with a barrel like that ....

the MFG statement
All B-14 rifles are guaranteed to produce groups of 1.0 MOA or less at 100 yards with quality factory match grade ammunition.

 

[Canuck1977]

I use the 175 Lapua scenar-L with varget and federal GMM brass and get 1/4 MOA at 300m.

41.8 gr of varget and 2.236” CBTO. Will shoot well in any rifle! Will still 1/2 MOA at 1054m
24” barrel with 11.25 twist

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Talley 20 MOA base, Vortex Pro Medium Rings and a Vortex PST Gen2 3-14x44. All torqued to specs.

I've never used 4350, but will put that on the list.

Thank you

Any of the 4350's are meant for cartridges with a much higher bore to case volume ratio, like 30-06 and 6.5 Creed. They are way to slow for good results in 308.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I have shot a lot of 175’s and have always found a load around 44 gr. My current load is 44.2 grains in M118lr brass @2.80. I would also suggest shooting around 10 rounds before you start looking for groups, and as stated above find a load that is decent and then start on seating depth. If you are changing loads and depth you are just chasing your tail. Shoot your barrel dirty and see if that helps, mine takes 11 rounds to settle in after cleaning. Good luck

44.0 - 44.2 of Varget is the sweet spot in Winchester brass because it has so much more internal volume.

In heavy brass like Federal, LC, or Lapua it is a max pressure load and will be finicky and pressure spikey when it gets hot outside.

 

[6MT]

That 20” barrel might be a bit short to generate velocities that the 175gr class projectiles work well with. IMHO.

 

[Kevins750]

Damn, you guys are jamming some varget in federal cases.
I shoot 43.7gr in federal cases with a 175 matchburner at 2.900 coal and I am compressed and slight flattening
Of cci200's at 2725fps.

OP............42gr of Imr 4064 or 43gr of varget and a 175smk at 2.820 have shot very well in all my 308's at 2660 fps.

 

[GlockandRoll]

I chased powder charges for a while in my FN SPR with Varget and 175s, and ended up with Prime 155 grn and haven't looked back.
I'm sure someone that enjoyed the journey more than someone like me, who really just wants to get to the destination would have eventually worked it out, but for whatever reason I just had bad luck with varget and the 175 together, even trying lapua brass. The only thing I even think about reloading now in my arsenal is .300wm, and I'm about to convert over to .300nm.