Need some help Shooting semi-autos

[5RWill]

I can hold good groups on my bolt guns with no problem but i must be doing something wrong with my SPR build. It will group the Southwest run N gun. At times it has produced around 1/2 moa. But it seems that i'm so damn inconsistent when shooting it. So i'm wondering if it's parallax or cheekweld. Optic is a Leupy MK4 2.5-8x36mm with ARMS 22# high rings. Stock is a magpul CTR. I'm currently getting money to get a IWS lower so i can have a better trigger and stock for it. But it's driving me nuts. Yesterday my father and I shot. He had 4 shots all touching about a half inch from the bullseye. I shoot and am not that far off, both my two shots were almost one ragged hole. Then today shooting at center bullseye shots are 2 inches high 3 inches to the right. I'm not flinching, I'm using the pad of my finger, following through all the recoil. It has to be a cheek weld coupled with parallax right? Or maybe i'm just moving that much and i don't realize it.

 

[USACS]

Re: Shooting semi-autos

What kind of SPR do you have? Parts? Barrel? Handguard/rail?

 

[5RWill]

Re: Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of SPR do you have? Parts? Barrel? Handguard/rail? </div></div>

BCM MK12 Mod 1 KAC/RAS. Everything else is BCM.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SPR-Mk-12-Mod-Bravo-1R-KAC-RAS-p/bcm-urg-mk12-1%20ras.htm

 

[trident1982]

Re: Shooting semi-autos

First off, props for being a man and shooting 10rd groups

In regards to your frustration...I would assume your new to shooting S/A's in a precision capacity, and if I'm correct than you should take it easy on yourself and understand that it takes quite some time to drive a semi auto precision rifle correctly.


1.) Are you shooting the rifle prone or on the bench?

2.) Are you shooting with a bipod and rear support?

3.) Do you find yourself fatigued after you shoot a full group? Or moreover, after you only fire several rds into a group?

Just based on what I read above in your OP, I would suggest three very important things to help get you on the right path...

1.) Get a highly predictable, very consistent, and crisp breaking two stage trigger. Set your shots up with the first stage, and then break them cleanly using your second stage.

2.) Shoot prone, while doing so set your rifle up so that the scope's crosshairs are naturally already on the target that you intend to shoot. then position yourself accordingly around your rifle. Not the other way around. Don't fight the rifle, everything should feel natural, don't muscle anything.

3.) Load your bipod properly!

 

[5RWill]

Re: Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trident1982</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off, props for being a man and shooting 10rd groups

In regards to your frustration...I would assume your new to shooting S/A's in a precision capacity, and if I'm correct than you should take it easy on yourself and understand that it takes quite some time to drive a semi auto precision rifle correctly.


1.) Are you shooting the rifle prone or on the bench?

2.) Are you shooting with a bipod and rear support?

3.) Do you find yourself fatigued after you shoot a full group? Or moreover, after you only fire several rds into a group?

Just based on what I read above in your OP, I would suggest three very important things to help get you on the right path...

1.) Get a highly predictable, very consistent, and crisp breaking two stage trigger. Set your shots up with the first stage, and then break them cleanly using your second stage.

2.) Shoot prone, while doing so set your rifle up so that the scope's crosshairs are naturally already on the target that you intend to shoot. then position yourself accordingly around your rifle. Not the other way around. Don't fight the rifle, everything should feel natural, don't muscle anything.

3.) Load your bipod properly!
</div></div>

Yeah this is my first AR that i've intended on using for precision shooting. Yesterdays groups were better from the prone position. Today (the above) was from a bench. All shooting from the harris bipod with a rear rest, but it doesn't exactly function as a traditional rest. I have a hard time stabilizing the pointed edge of the CTR, as opposed to the flat end of my MCM A5 on my bolt rifle. I'm going to have to eventually find a taller bag or a rear rest made for a carbine stock. Sadly this lower is my lower for my 14.5" mid BCM so the the trigger is just standard mil spec trigger, which is consequently horrible for consistent trigger pull. Which is why i'm finally wanting to get the IWS this winter.

 

[USACS]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

If you want to keep the CTR, look into some LaRue accessories. You mentioned the difficulty with the CTR on a rear bag. Consider looking into the LaRue POD (Prone Optimization Device).
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-pod-prone-optimization-device

Also, if you have any cheek weld issues due to optics height, the RISR is a good option to consider.
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-risr-reciprocating-inline-stock-riser


Other than those, you just need to get a lot of time behind the gun. S/A rifles have their own dynamic. I was frustrated with my first SPR, but then I learned how to shoot it. I went for 1.5MOA groups to sub-0.5 MOA groups.
Once you pick up on what you need to do, you'll be fine. I was surprised to learn this issue, as I had shot bolt action without an issue for a long time. I had also shot ARs for a long time, but never a precision AR. Time behind the gun will iron the kinks out, but do as suggested above. Also, if you are running a taller bipod, you might want to look into the BR 6-9" version. This works better when using a rear bag. That, and a 20rd mag instead of a 30 rounder.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

A couple things. First, get a new trigger ASAP. Second, video yourself on the gun. You may actually have a flinch or poor follow through and you don't realize it.

Also, how is your position? Is the reticle coming back onto the target? I ask this because the shift in POI looks like your natural point of aim is off and your position is constantly shifting causing the stringing.

As for your cheek weld, yes that can cause the poor grouping, especially if it's causing you to strain over long strings. I've tried the SPR on a collapsible stock, but realized I don't want to sacrifice accuracy for a stock I never shorten and have gone with a PRS.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to keep the CTR, look into some LaRue accessories. You mentioned the difficulty with the CTR on a rear bag. Consider looking into the LaRue POD (Prone Optimization Device).
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-pod-prone-optimization-device

Also, if you have any cheek weld issues due to optics height, the RISR is a good option to consider.
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-risr-reciprocating-inline-stock-riser


Other than those, you just need to get a lot of time behind the gun. S/A rifles have their own dynamic. I was frustrated with my first SPR, but then I learned how to shoot it. I went for 1.5MOA groups to sub-0.5 MOA groups.
Once you pick up on what you need to do, you'll be fine. I was surprised to learn this issue, as I had shot bolt action without an issue for a long time. I had also shot ARs for a long time, but never a precision AR. Time behind the gun will iron the kinks out, but do as suggested above. Also, if you are running a taller bipod, you might want to look into the BR 6-9" version. This works better when using a rear bag. That, and a 20rd mag instead of a 30 rounder. </div></div>

Yeah i had looked at the Larue add ons to the CTR, but the lower with the CTR is for my 14.5" which is why i'm looking to the KAC lower for the SPR. Yeah thats why i'm a bit baffled because i can hold 1/2 moa on my bolt gun pretty well. So this has been a little frustrating. I'm actually running the 6-9" harris, but it's the first revisions, the one without the notches. It's like 6" is too low, yet 9" is too high for the rear rest i have, so i use 6". Just have to keep shooting i guess. I'm definitely ready for a new lower though.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

It might do you some good to sign up for the training lessons on here. SA guns are not friendly to some. The way you grip, pull the trigger (follow thru) and the way your body is positioned behind the gun all make differences on impact.

Make sure the gun fits you very comfortably and start over with the basics. Most have allot of bad habits to overcome to shoot a SA accurately and don't realize it until they try to shoot one.

 

[slowkota]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but realized I don't want to sacrifice accuracy for a stock I never shorten and have gone with a PRS. </div></div>

Thats actually a great point for an SPR and 99.999% of users!

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It might do you some good to sign up for the training lessons on here. SA guns are not friendly to some. The way you grip, pull the trigger (follow thru) and the way your body is positioned behind the gun all make differences on impact.

Make sure the gun fits you very comfortably and start over with the basics. Most have allot of bad habits to overcome to shoot a SA accurately and don't realize it until they try to shoot one. </div></div>

Will do. Going to sign up for a month or so come holidays. I got two weeks coming up, that i have a lot riding on some finals. Maintaining some grades and such then i'll be free.
\
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things. First, get a new trigger ASAP. Second, video yourself on the gun. You may actually have a flinch or poor follow through and you don't realize it.

Also, how is your position? Is the reticle coming back onto the target? I ask this because the shift in POI looks like your natural point of aim is off and your position is constantly shifting causing the stringing.

As for your cheek weld, yes that can cause the poor grouping, especially if it's causing you to strain over long strings. I've tried the SPR on a collapsible stock, but realized I don't want to sacrifice accuracy for a stock I never shorten and have gone with a PRS.</div></div>

Reticle doesn't come precisely back on target but is close. Position lately has been shifting, in attempt to get comfortable. Using the 6" of elevation for the bipod is too short, and the 9" which is more comfortable and allows a better cheek weld, i have no rear rest for. Yeah this particular trigger after a good couple of hours of grouping starts to strain my wrist. Alot of this is probably force. Because i can't stabilize the rear like i can my bolt rifle, i find it very frustrating. So i end up making a critical mistake in forcing the rifle on target and attempting to hold steady.

After creating threads about it, it's come to my conclusion that i'm a mess with S/A's and there is an accumulation of problems. Going to have to take a look at the lessons, and start back to the basics. Really need to work on getting a lower for it. I'm starting to second guess the SOPMOD stock i had planned, and am wondering if i should just stick to the basic A2.

 

[johnson]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Why do you need a new lower if you just want a different trigger and stock? You can get something like a Geissele SSA (or SSA-E, SD-C, SD-E) and a Vltor EMOD clubfoot for your current lower. I just put together an upper with the 16" Centurion Recon barrel and first outing got me this group with Fiocchi 77 gr SMK using a Caldwell Tackdriver front rest with no rear bag and shooting off a bench. I'm using a factory LMT single stage trigger and VLTOR IMOD carbine stock. They're not the best for precision shooting but you don't "need" to spend another $300 on parts, just good ammo and trigger time. Those BCM SS410 barrels are very accurate.

How many times have you shot with it. Is it possible that the scope/mount lost zero?

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

The lower i'm using is for my 14.5" BCM i'm not going to change parts out every time i use my 18" mk12 mod 1. Thats why it needs it's own lower. I have some decent 4-5 shot groups with the upper, i just can't hold them and do it consistently.

I know it might seem that it's a waste of money but i've been putting off a lower for this upper for a year now. It's time i finished it.

I haven't shot with it that much. I've probably put a total of maybe 100rds through it now.

 

[johnson]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The lower i'm using is for my 14.5" BCM i'm not going to change parts out every time i use my 18" mk12 mod 1. Thats why it needs it's own lower. I have some decent 4-5 shot groups with the upper, i just can't hold them and do it consistently.

I know it might seem that it's a waste of money but i've been putting off a lower for this upper for a year now. It's time i finished it. </div></div>

Why would you need to change out parts? Just keep the trigger and stock on there. I guess I'm not following the logic on spending $750 for a lower for an SPR where ambi controls aren't needed, a SOPMOD which you'll likely sell since the bottom is pointed like the CTR, and a trigger that IMO is not as good as a Geissele.

I share my lower between a 12.5" carbine and precision 16".

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Because i bought the CTR for that lower specifically for the setup of my 14.5. Not really wanting a 2 stage match trigger on a 14.5" upper either.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Starting to think the scope isn't mounted properly or it's lost zero. Today i was shooting just to see if anything changed. Aiming in the center of the target it hit the thumbtack on the top right corner. 6 inches up 6 inches over. Both shots were touching. This was from a bench and leaves me wondering if it's scope related. Either way i'm signing up for the online lessons come monday to reassure i'm doing everything properly. Couldn't get comfortable on the bench, using the rear bag i have with the CTR just doesn't work, tried resting it under the pistol grip and it was either too high or too low.

 

[pupdawg]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

You just need to shoot it more.

AR's in general are a bit finicky to shoot accurately and consistently. Consistent position and follow through are important. If it's inconsistent on paper that means that you're inconsistent (given everything is assembled properly and you have a good barrel and ammo).

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

I never thought it'd be this hard. I was extremely shaky today and even pulled the first shot on my bolt rifle. When i say shaky it took damn near 45 minutes for my hands to stop shaking and my heart rate to slow down. Haven't been behind a rifle in a while. Just gonna have to keep trucking along i guess. Maybe find some cheaper ammo to run through it i don't want to waste my SWA 77gr SMKs. They're the run N gun but still.

Going to hold off till i get my lower in and have a more consistent trigger pull and cheek weld. That or shoot up some of my crappy FMJs. Then thinking of changing the lower entirely to fixed stock and being done with it. Going to give it a day or to. Starting to lean towards the fixed stock.

 

[BOL556]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Trigger control. When your rounds are impacting left or right. Breathing. Rounds will impact up and down. From your target your jerking the trigger or using to much finger. Changing out the stock or trigger will make no difference.

 

[titom110]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

There is a lesson in the online training on the fundamentals of shooting a semi, thats a start. It takes a little more discipline to shoot a semi and it took me a while until i could start having good goups, need to practice and have patience, every range session i worry more about the fundamentals and the groups will follow.Every position requires the same fundamentals to get the same results,straight behind the rifle,breathing,trigger manipulation,natural point of aim etc. Analize your results and ask why,what and how, it definately going to help.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Will do. Thanks for the advice. While my breathing was bad yesterday (i was pissed)i'm not jerking the trigger, so it could be that i'm using to much finger.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

After a week of shooting even groups on my 14.5 (now with aimpoint) are looking better. As i said takes me a while to get my mental game under control. The LMT lower with fixed stock will be in this coming wednesday, Giessle SSA-E is sitting in my gunvise. We should see some improvements. To show you how inconsistent i've gotten i've dug up some old groups using Privi partisan 75gr and 69gr. Again thanks for the help. I'll be updating this thread with groups next week. IIRC first is 69gr BTHP and second is 75gr BTHP.

 

[josie6637]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

I just skimmed alot of the posts on this thread but, first try and have someone that you respect as a good shooter try it. If you see the same problems there then start looking at equipment. Start at the optics, ensure everything is tight and the scope is still good (hasn't lost its zero). Might tryget running ironon sights or changeingthe optics to trythe this. Then the barrel, make sure that the lock nut is tightened properly (I found a very similar issue with a loose barrel) you're gonna have to take the hand gaurd off to properly do that.
Then check the internals. If the buffer spring is shot or just bad this can and will cause similar issues. Springs can go bad in as few as 500 compressions. I've seen it. It maybe fundamentals but if it feels consistent and its not, then look at gear. I wouldnt buy much to fix the problem until you know what the problem is

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

I just was messing with it and damnit I feel stupid for not noticing but the back ring is lose enough to wiggle. Going to tighten it down and shoot some groups when the rain clears.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Well turns out that was the problem. Fixed stock and a Giessele trigger makes a world of difference. Can't say i'm not happy. Now i know anything below 10 shot groups are frowned upon but i don't care lol. The last time i've shot this gun it was all over the place. My group is on the left my friends on the right. The 2 bottom ones are sighters. It was shooting a good 6 inches left on the first shot. Anyway i'm pleased thanks for all the help guys.

 

[NINETY-NINE POINT NINE]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Blackops did you ever end up taking the online training?

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NINETY-NINE POINT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blackops did you ever end up taking the online training? </div></div>

I didn't, i have watched the teaser to semi autos a couple of times. Don't get me wrong i want to, but i couldn't put down 124$ or whatever it was at the time. I eventually will though.

 

[WARDOG]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

There are some adjustments you have to make when shooting semi's.
Cheekweld, scope eye relief, and keeping the weapon level were the most critical to me when learning.
The problem with rear charging handles is that you can't build up the comb of the stock to get proper eye relief for scope elevation like you can with a bolt gun. You can build up the comb, but it has to be so far back that the charging handle can still go fully to the rear without being impeded. So your eye relief will typically be farther back from the scope than you are accustomed to when using a bolt gun.
This training solution may sound silly but it works for finding one or more problems in your firing position. Bend a piece of cardboard in a 'L' position and tape it to the stock so the vertical part of the 'L' sticks up right at the charging handles further most rear position. Now find a cheekweld with your nose touching the vertical piece of cardboard. This is as close to the scope as you will be able to get while firing from the prone or bench position. You may be able to build up the comb in the area from the cardboard to the butt using tape and foam. You will likely see a larger peripheral dark halo (donut) when looking into the scope, some of which you can adjust out with the rear eyepiece focus. Practice getting a consistent cheekweld over and over with the buttstock in the same place on your shoulder and the tip of your nose touching the cardboard in front of it <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time.
You have a good scope in the Leupy MK4 2.5-8x36mm but I suspect the ARMS 22# high rings are too high for a good cheekweld and still see through the center of the scope. Replace the High rings with the lowest possible rings that will not allow the bell of the scope to hit the top rail. The lower the rings the better. People with rings that are too high tend to sacrifice their consistent cheekweld and raise their head in search of finding the center of the scope. It is better to push your cheek <span style="font-style: italic">into</span> a known surface, with consistent pressure than to not have any surface at all in which to consistently gage your cheekweld.
At the same time practice the same range (100 yds), at the same zoom-power of the scope until you get the bugs worked out.
NEXT: Ditch the bi-pod and use a level, compressible front bag, and a rear bag. I learned to shoot from a pack and never could learn to like bi-pods. Once set, bi-pods cannot be manipulated in elevation or cant left or right. If your bi-pod legs are on an uneven / non-level surface your rifle will be canted to one side without you realizing it. Bi-pod legs have rubber feet which makes them harder to push forward or pull back. That makes some shooters <span style="font-style: italic">adjust <span style="font-weight: bold">to</span> the rifle</span> instead of adjusting the rifle to them. If your rifle is on a pack, you can move it back and forth easily for the proper eye relief, and adjust for elevation and cant easily. If you can afford an anti-cant device then it would be a good purchase. Canting the rifle will have a minor effect at 100 yards but will really matter the farther out you shoot. Experienced shooters usually don't need an anti-cant device after they get used to the rifle, but shooting long-range with uneven terrain out in the distance can cause some of the best shooters to cant their rifle to a false level.
Also as stated before me, a military spec 8 lb trigger pull can be psychologically exhausting. A good single, or two-stage trigger can make the trigger break much more predictable and your accuracy may improve.
We all know that using the pad of your trigger finger gives you the touch and consistency you need. With stock AR pistol grips, the grip is too close to the trigger. I purchased and installed devices that relocate the grip rearward from the trigger by about 3/4". Then the pad of your trigger finger finds its rest on the trigger naturally.
Shoot slow methodical shots, even if someone is watching you. You need to get consistent before you can get fast.
You don't want to overheat the barrel or your groups are going to start wandering and then you won't ever figure out what you are doing wrong.
Also give yourself a break. 'Flyers' occur all of the time. The inconsistent thickness of the brass neck causes the bullet to be released unevenly, and enters the rifles slightly askew. Practice with good quality, same brand and weight ammo so you can remove that variable from the equation.
Finally...find a sheep suit, preferably the front half and......just kidding. I think I gave you enough advice to work on.
Let us know how it goes.
I hope this helps.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

I would ask you, why would you replace a BCM lower to have a different trigger? Buy a Geissele, install, done.

 

[tomthebaker]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

Just want to say, I am also new to Semi-auto precision shooting, and I have been learning from/enjoying this thread also.

 

[OFIS]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

There's nothing wrong with using a bipod...

I don't want to say 'death grip' but its safe to say you should double whatever force you would use on a bolt action rifle when pulling the SA rifle to your shoulder.

 

[5RWill]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would ask you, why would you replace a BCM lower to have a different trigger? Buy a Geissele, install, done. </div></div>

Not replacing the lower. My BCM4 lower goes on my 14.5" BCM mid upper. Different applications for each weapon, and honestly just wanting to have two separate weapons. Also using a fixed stock on my MK12 Mod 1 upper which really balances weight. On my carbine BCM4 lower its overly front heavy. I'm so very glad that i went with a Fixed A2. Jesus it's a more comfortable on that particular upper than a 6 position adjustable. FWIW after i found my scope rings were loose the gun shoots fine now. I've taken it out to 600m with decent success, windage calls on that little round is a little difficult for me.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: Need some help Shooting semi-autos

I got you, some of this was cut-off the first time I tried to read it and I'm going blind, LOL. I don't have long arms and love the ability to shorten stocks, but when it's an AR, it just makes it a cluster&*%$ for me to try and shoot it from a bench. When I get mine sorted out to where I want it, I'm going back to an A1 as well. Nice shooting on your last targets! Loose rings? BTDT, LOL, welcome to the club.