Needing Sage Advice on a Season of Failed Load Development

[MNtadpole]

Hey,

I needs some fatherly and or sage advice on trying to find/develop loads for a few firearms. I have spent a great deal of time this whole past season trying to dial in loads, using velocity ladder testing, and I don't feel like I have really achieved any headway towards success. It's frustrating spending time shooting velocity ladders through a magneto speed chrono and not really get any definitive progress forward. Part of me wants to just abandon load development all together and just shoot. That way it feels less like a chore and more like the hobby it's supposed to be.

I'll highlight the process I used to conduct a velocity ladder test that I did on a 20" SS barreled LMT DMR (AR-10)in 6.5CM on 23SEP2021:

Ladder load was using Hornady 147gr ELD-M, H4350, Hornady brass, CCI 200 primers.

1. Fire-formed Hornady brass deprimed, annealed, and FL-sized -3 thou bump using a Redding bushing die.

2. Brass neck was put through a .261" mandrel to set neck tension at 3 thou.

3. Trim, chamfer, debur brass.

3. Brass was steel pin tumbled and dehydrator dried.

4. Dried brass is primed on Dillon 550C.

5. H4350 Powder is dropped via Charge Master in .2 of a grain increments from Hodgdon.com's Min to Max suggested powder charges. Loaded 3 rounds per charge weight.

6. Hornady 147gr ELD-M Bullets are seated via Redding micrometer seating die on Forster Co-Ax Press. Bullets were seated a few thou from maximum magazine length of the Magpul Pmag.


I went ahead and shot all 69 rounds of this ladder over a magneto speed chrono and then took the data to MS Excel to graph it. The attached .jpg should show my chronograph results.

I know at this stage I should be looking for flat spots which are the velocity nodes to zero in on for future test. I feel like most of my results, and these ones in particular, are crap and unrevealing.

This is what I do identify here:

1. possible velocity node at 39.2-39.4gr(2524ish fps) & maybe something going on at 40.2 gr (2582fps).

2. very erratic velocity behavior between 39.4-40gr.

3. stead climb in velocity from 40.6gr-41.8gr (2609-2685fps) <- which is unfortunate, since I was hoping to grab a flat spot in the +2600fps areas.



Conclusions:

1. The powder charge limits, given by Hodgdon.com, were fine. The top charges resulted in only slight ejector smearing on the brass. No overly-flatten primers or blowouts.

2. Although some apparent flat spots were found, the velocities where they occurred seemed rather slow (2524 & 2582 fps).

3. The goal of locating a velocity flat spot at a speed above 2600fps wasn't achieved or found.

4. The averaging SD across all rungs of the ladder was 11. Usually speaking I was seeing low teens for SD and some single digits.



Questions to the Forum:

1. Am I missing something here with the collection of this data? Am I digging too deep?

2. Is the 147gr/H4350/AR10 combination just not working?

3. I'm having similar reloading blues with my bolt-actions. What do you recommend long term? LOL should I scrap load dev and just shoot!? I want to get to the next step here!

THANKS ALL!

 

[Steel head]

40-40.5 is a pretty well known AR load wit the 147’s and your graph shows why.
Here’s my buddy breaking his mile cherry with that load.

 

[spife7980]

Take the chrono off because flat spots don’t exist. Shoot the paper and see what actually shoots best.

 

[Hondo64d]

Hey,

I needs some fatherly and or sage advice on trying to find/develop loads for a few firearms. I have spent a great deal of time this whole past season trying to dial in loads, using velocity ladder testing, and I don't feel like I have really achieved any headway towards success. It's frustrating spending time shooting velocity ladders through a magneto speed chrono and not really get any definitive progress forward. Part of me wants to just abandon load development all together and just shoot. That way it feels less like a chore and more like the hobby it's supposed to be.

I'll highlight the process I used to conduct a velocity ladder test that I did on a 20" SS barreled LMT DMR (AR-10)in 6.5CM on 23SEP2021:

Ladder load was using Hornady 147gr ELD-M, H4350, Hornady brass, CCI 200 primers.

1. Fire-formed Hornady brass deprimed, annealed, and FL-sized -3 thou bump using a Redding bushing die.

2. Brass neck was put through a .261" mandrel to set neck tension at 3 thou.

3. Trim, chamfer, debur brass.

3. Brass was steel pin tumbled and dehydrator dried.

4. Dried brass is primed on Dillon 550C.

5. H4350 Powder is dropped via Charge Master in .2 of a grain increments from Hodgdon.com's Min to Max suggested powder charges. Loaded 3 rounds per charge weight.

6. Hornady 147gr ELD-M Bullets are seated via Redding micrometer seating die on Forster Co-Ax Press. Bullets were seated a few thou from maximum magazine length of the Magpul Pmag.


I went ahead and shot all 69 rounds of this ladder over a magneto speed chrono and then took the data to MS Excel to graph it. The attached .jpg should show my chronograph results.
View attachment 7709208


I know at this stage I should be looking for flat spots which are the velocity nodes to zero in on for future test. I feel like most of my results, and these ones in particular, are crap and unrevealing.

This is what I do identify here:

1. possible velocity node at 39.2-39.4gr(2524ish fps) & maybe something going on at 40.2 gr (2582fps).

2. very erratic velocity behavior between 39.4-40gr.

3. stead climb in velocity from 40.6gr-41.8gr (2609-2685fps) <- which is unfortunate, since I was hoping to grab a flat spot in the +2600fps areas.



Conclusions:

1. The powder charge limits, given by Hodgdon.com, were fine. The top charges resulted in only slight ejector smearing on the brass. No overly-flatten primers or blowouts.

2. Although some apparent flat spots were found, the velocities where they occurred seemed rather slow (2524 & 2582 fps).

3. The goal of locating a velocity flat spot at a speed above 2600fps wasn't achieved or found.

4. The averaging SD across all rungs of the ladder was 11. Usually speaking I was seeing low teens for SD and some single digits.



Questions to the Forum:

1. Am I missing something here with the collection of this data? Am I digging too deep?

2. Is the 147gr/H4350/AR10 combination just not working?

3. I'm having similar reloading blues with my bolt-actions. What do you recommend long term? LOL should I scrap load dev and just shoot!? I want to get to the next step here!

THANKS ALL!

In theory, velocity flat spots are fine, but all that really matters is what happens on the target. Did you put the loads on paper?

John

 

[MNtadpole]

In theory, velocity flat spots are fine, but all that really matters is what happens on the target. Did you put the loads on paper?

John

Not yet. And the reason why I haven't yet, might point to a change I need to make. So I was doing a basic ladder test for the new LMT AR10 and a new weight bullet that I have never used. I figured it would be a good idea to tread in softly with pressures and what not. Anyways, I figured that would be good to do while taking velocity measurements with a Magnetospeed chrono. Problem is, you can't technically shoot for groups when you have the Magnetospeed on the barrel, since it changes the harmonics.

With that being said, It's unfortunate that I don't have a Labrador in this case. I had tried a Labrador, but didn't have a lot of luck with it, but it was used and might have been faulty. The limitations of using a Magnetospeed are definitely acknowledged.

Do you think it might be worth shooting groups at starting charges of around 40gr of H4350 with the 147 ELD-M?

 

[mtang45]

Take the chrono off because flat spots don’t exist. Shoot the paper and see what actually shoots best.

What @spife7980 says. Velocity ladder tests don't work and are not repeatable. It all sounded good in theory and a lot of people bought into the idea. However in reality they simply do not indicate anything. Do an OCW test looking for a string of groups with relatively the same POI on the target. If nothing looks good try a different powder. If the results look good, pick a load in the middle of that string and run a seating depth test.

 

[MNtadpole]

What @spife7980 says. Velocity ladder tests don't work and are not repeatable. It all sounded good in theory and a lot of people bought into the idea. However in reality they simply do not indicate anything. Do an OCW test looking for a string of groups with relatively the same POI on the target. If nothing looks good try a different powder. If the results look good, pick a load in the middle of that string and run a seating depth test.

Honestly, I'm about ready to seriously switch things up and do this! Can I pick the bottom portion of my goal velocity and work up a OCW from there to MV? I'm not to savvy on the OCW techniques, but I understand the principles of it all. If I was to do this, what technique would you recommend where I would maximize barrel life and minimize reloading resources?

Personally, I would like to see a 147gr ELD-M load shooting above 2600+ fps. Below that seems too slow, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if anyone has some wisdom.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I would call 40.2 a flat spot and try some three shot groups with 39.9, 40.2, 40.5 grain without the Mag-speed.

 

[JS/]

When I chronoed factory Hornady 147s they ran 2700 ft./sec. from my 26" barrel. Using H4350 it took 40.3 grs. to duplicate that velocity in Lapua brass. I continued and settled on 41.5 grs. for 140-145 gr. bullets. Sierra 142s and Hornady 140s would clock 2770, while the 145 gr. Barnes would do 2750. If I found some Horn. 147s I'd probably start at 40.3 grs and see what I could get by increasing it. The factory 147s grouped slightly over .5 inch at 100. I had an Oehler 35P set up 12 feet in front of muzzle. Just pick a bullet and find a powder charge that gives tight groups, then test at extended ranges.

 

[Supersubes]

Honestly, I'm about ready to seriously switch things up and do this! Can I pick the bottom portion of my goal velocity and work up a OCW from there to MV? I'm not to savvy on the OCW techniques, but I understand the principles of it all. If I was to do this, what technique would you recommend where I would maximize barrel life and minimize reloading resources?

Personally, I would like to see a 147gr ELD-M load shooting above 2600+ fps. Below that seems too slow, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if anyone has some wisdom.

You're complicating the shit out of this. Load some rounds and shoot.

 

[Maxduty]

One very competitive shooter here has recommended picking a velocity, get to it and adjust seating depth from there to fine tune it. I trust Dthomas' advice entirely.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Repeatable flat spots do not exist.

Unless you are a MASTER at shooting an AR10 with thousands of rounds under your
belt there is little if any chance you are going to test minor load variations for accuracy improvement without
shooter noise skewing the results.

If 41.4 did not have any issues just load that and shoot the rifle.


EDIT: 2685 FPS with a 147 out of a 20" gas gun is HOT.

 

[Hondo64d]

Not yet. And the reason why I haven't yet, might point to a change I need to make. So I was doing a basic ladder test for the new LMT AR10 and a new weight bullet that I have never used. I figured it would be a good idea to tread in softly with pressures and what not. Anyways, I figured that would be good to do while taking velocity measurements with a Magnetospeed chrono. Problem is, you can't technically shoot for groups when you have the Magnetospeed on the barrel, since it changes the harmonics.

With that being said, It's unfortunate that I don't have a Labrador in this case. I had tried a Labrador, but didn't have a lot of luck with it, but it was used and might have been faulty. The limitations of using a Magnetospeed are definitely acknowledged.

Do you think it might be worth shooting groups at starting charges of around 40gr of H4350 with the 147 ELD-M?

In my view, the chrono should be the last part of your load development, done only after you find an acceptably good shooting load. And, you’re right, don’t shoot for groups with the magnetospeed attached.

Some will criticize my method, but it has repeatedly produced good results for me.

Load a series of charges, 10 rounds each charge with .4gr between each charge. I use five charges, with the top charge being my expected max, for example, 39.4, 39.8, 41.2, 41.6, and 42gr. Seating depth is the shorter of kissing the lands or max magazine length. Why 10 round groups? Because the results are MUCH more statistically valid and a much better indicator of what to expect out of a load than a three-shot or even a five shot group. No need to burn your barrel up by shooting all ten rounds at once though. Shoot three or five, let the barrel cool and repeat until you have a ten shot group. Do that for each charge. I use .4gr between charges. Some will say that’s too much, but I like a wide accuracy node. Ideally I will have two consecutive charges that group well and at the same POI, and I split the difference between those two charges then roll with it for my seating depth test. If I don’t get two consecutive charges that group well, I will pick the charge that grouped the best and use it for my seating depth test.

For my seating depth test, I load ten rounds each at .025”, .050”, .075”, .100” and .125” shorter than what ever length you shot your powder test with. I don’t test that length again because I already tested that length with the powder test. One of the lengths is going to group significantly better than the others. I usually just go with the length that grouped the best but you could fine tune from that if you wanted. So now you have determined your most precise combination of powder charge and seating depth.

If you have access to long range, and can find a calm day, do your development at long range. The vertical spread at long range will show both velocity spread and unfavorable barrel harmonics. I don’t put much stock in the chronograph anymore for a couple of reasons. 1) All that matters is what happens on the target and velocity does not always correlate to good results on the target. 2) We typically don’t shoot enough rounds over the chrono to have any statistical relevance. An extreme spread or standard deviation derived from three, five, or even ten shots has almost zero statistical bearing.

Yes, I have now burned 100 rounds in developing a load, but I have found loads developed with this method to be very repeatable and precise and I do not end up questioning their integrity later on so to me it’s worth it.

Now once you’ve found your best load, if you have access to long range, use your best educated guess for the velocity and walk some rounds down range until you are on at 800 or so. Use your derived DOPE to input into your software and use its velocity truing feature to get your real velocity. Ballistic AE makes this VERY easy. Once done, usually my data aligns almost perfectly with my DOPE. if it doesn’t, a BC tweek is usually in order.

Heres a couple of loads developed with this method. The first is 10 shots from my hunting weight rig. The second is five shots on my 900 yard steel from my match weight gun.

John

 

[Baron23]

I know at this stage I should be looking for flat spots which are the velocity nodes to zero in on for future test.

As said, "velocity nodes" with small sample size (i.e. number of shots per charge weight) are a statistically insignificant artifact and don't really exist.

As you increase the data set from like 3 shots at a charge weight to 30 or more you will see those flat spots disappear.

There is at least one...but I think more...recent and very long threads on this subject with lots of good data and some guys who actually still remember their college statistics (and I'm not one of them! haha).

Might want to search for @Ledzep for this thread as he was a major contributor.

Cheers and best of luck.

 

[Ledzep]

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-33607572/documents/7f15a36e4a52403d9ac4e42ae6342116/The%20Tyranny%20of%20Statistics.pdf

And Jeff's main page, for those interested.

Home

bulletology.homesteadcloud.com

 

[Hondo64d]

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-33607572/documents/7f15a36e4a52403d9ac4e42ae6342116/The%20Tyranny%20of%20Statistics.pdf

And Jeff's main page, for those interested.

Home

bulletology.homesteadcloud.com

EXCELLENT article.

John

 

[RldrNewby]

I’m not shooting 147g ELDMs or an AR10, but your process caught my attention, & I thought I’d share my thoughts. ’ve experimented a good bit with load dev techniques since getting into reloading. I went thru a phase where I think I leaned on chrono a little more than I should have. Don’t get me wrong, I still use my chrono, but when & how I use it has evolved. For example, I just got a new Bartlein 5R 26” M24 to replace my shot out RPR 6.5 stock barrel, so after break in, this is how I chose to approach my load dev. I loaded 10 charges in .3g increments working back from book max, strapped on my Magnetospeed V3, & shot all 10 of those rounds at a bullseye at 500yds. I did that for three reasons. 1.) To check for pressure signs/ceiling (my rifle is a bolt, so I checked brass/primers, & evaluated bolt lift for signs of pressure. 2.) To see if any consecutive charge weights clustered on the target. Nothing obvious on my test. & 3.) To get a really rough estimate of each charge weight’s velocity. Then, I shot 3 shot groups at 100yds with each of those charge weights WITHOUT the chrono attached. From the 100yd test, I came across several consecutive charge weights that had similar POI. These were in the 39.7 to 40.6g range, which happen to be close to velocities that I’ve had really good success in the past with on 140g ELDMs. So, I’m in 40 rounds total at this point, & now I have a starting point in the middle of those similar POIs where I intend to perform a Seating Depth test. If that goes well, I may or may not repeat my 100yd groups in a finer resolution of 0.1gr increments where the original course test showed similar POIs. After that, all that’s left is load verification up close & at distance. If the load holds up, I’ll load 20 or more, & THEN chrono them to obtain velocity data for my ballistic calculator. My method may not be right, but that’s where I’m currently at with regard to load dev philosophy… for now. In all likelihood, you could probably just pick a velocity you like, then tune the load with a mechanical tuner, or by seating depth, & call it good (with way less effort than what I’m doing), but I actually do enjoy the process of experimenting. Apparently I’m a glutton for punishment, lol.

 

[MNtadpole]

Repeatable flat spots do not exist.

Unless you are a MASTER at shooting an AR10 with thousands of rounds under your
belt there is little if any chance you are going to test minor load variations for accuracy improvement without
shooter noise skewing the results.

If 41.4 did not have any issues just load that and shoot the rifle.


EDIT: 2685 FPS with a 147 out of a 20" gas gun is HOT.

I would have to agree with your HOT analysis 100%. Judging from the case heads of the rounds fired at/near that velocity(2685), I was starting to see signs. I was seeing ejector smearing and small amounts of primer cup cratering. So I knew that I shouldn't proceed higher. Again, I was wanting find my maximum safe charge, and hopefully identify some nodes at +2600 fps.

 

[MNtadpole]

All,

Thank you for your thoughts and advice. I'm going to hopefully load up some rounds and shoot for groups this week. I'll post some of my results here and see what happens.

 

[MNtadpole]

All,

So I got out to the range to just shoot, as suggested, without the chrono on my LMT AR-10 in 6.5CM at 100yrds. I loaded 147gr ELD-M with loads of H4350 ranging from 39.4-41.5gr. The brass was primed with CCI-41. Essentially, each series increased in charge weight by .3gr.

The attached picture below shows the groups starting with the lowest charge weight starting at the bottom left, moving to the right.
**Don't bust my balls too much, I tried shooting my best **

During the test I was shooting 4 different series round-robin style at a time.

Personal Conclusions:
-Shooting during and after dust probably wasn't the best choice.
-I will be swapping out the 7lbs (total) factory LMT 2 stage trigger for a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage (2.8-3.9) total.
-Seems that the charge weight of 40.9gr of H4350 had the tightest POI of all the groups shot. Velocity was recorded, separately from the groups, at 2638 fps at 62 degrees F.
-Thinking to trying load from 40.6-41.2g in .1gr increments to see if I can replicate and or narrow down a tighter group.

Please drop some of your suggestions below! Let me know if you think this bullet/powder combination should be scrapped or if it's worth continuing.

 

[Hondo64d]

All,

So I got out to the range to just shoot, as suggested, without the chrono on my LMT AR-10 in 6.5CM at 100yrds. I loaded 147gr ELD-M with loads of H4350 ranging from 39.4-41.5gr. The brass was primed with CCI-41. Essentially, each series increased in charge weight by .3gr.

The attached picture below shows the groups starting with the lowest charge weight starting at the bottom left, moving to the right.
**Don't bust my balls too much, I tried shooting my best **
View attachment 7711908

During the test I was shooting 4 different series round-robin style at a time.

Personal Conclusions:
-Shooting during and after dust probably wasn't the best choice.
-I will be swapping out the 7lbs (total) factory LMT 2 stage trigger for a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage (2.8-3.9) total.
-Seems that the charge weight of 40.9gr of H4350 had the tightest POI of all the groups shot. Velocity was recorded, separately from the groups, at 2638 fps at 62 degrees F.
-Thinking to trying load from 40.6-41.2g in .1gr increments to see if I can replicate and or narrow down a tighter group.

Please drop some of your suggestions below! Let me know if you think this bullet/powder combination should be scrapped or if it's worth continuing.

I would shoot 40.4 again to see if it will repeat. If it does, I would start a seating depth test. Edited to add that the 7lb trigger may very well be the reason you’re seeing horizontal stringing.

John

 

[MK20]

How fast do you want your bullet to go?

Can you get there with acceptable port pressure and overall pressure?

Does your load that meets the previous two show good accuracy?

If so, load and shoot. We can't afford to waste components.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Pick a charge weight that yields your desired mv and then tune seating depth for accuracy. Your ladder test is done so you already have a charge weight figured out. Load 5rd batches in varying seating depth increments and shoot groups. Pick the best groups and confirm with a second batch.

 

[MNtadpole]

How fast do you want your bullet to go?

Can you get there with acceptable port pressure and overall pressure?

Does your load that meets the previous two show good accuracy?

If so, load and shoot. We can't afford to waste components.

I wanted to break the 2600+ velocity range for sure, which I have with all charge weights above 40.6gr of H4350. As long as I stay below 41.7gr I don't see any signs of excessive port pressures.

I 110% agree on not wasting components...lol I'm also wanting to maximize my rifle's performance too

 

[MNtadpole]

Pick a charge weight that yields your desired mv and then tune seating depth for accuracy. Your ladder test is done so you already have a charge weight figured out. Load 5rd batches in varying seating depth increments and shoot groups. Pick the best groups and confirm with a second batch.

So I understand that tuning would be the next step in the load development that I need to get to. With that being said, I want to say that I heard somewhere that every .006" is likely another seating depth node. Would you agree with this? What would you recommend for seating depth step intervals? Say my CBTO at 2.169" (AR-10 p-mag length) where would your depth testing stop at?

 

[MNtadpole]

I would shoot 40.4 again to see if it will repeat. If it does, I would start a seating depth test. Edited to add that the 7lb trigger may very well be the reason you’re seeing horizontal stringing.

John

Hondo,
Can I ask why you are suggesting 40.4gr specifically? I'm curious to hear what your thoughts were. I was thinking of redoing this to see if there are any changes seen, or whether I can replicate what we've already seen here.

I'm probably going to do the trigger swap as soon as I get home tonight. I had the SSA-E sitting around from a prior AR-10 that I sold off.

 

[Hondo64d]

Hondo,
Can I ask why you are suggesting 40.4gr specifically? I'm curious to hear what your thoughts were. I was thinking of redoing this to see if there are any changes seen, or whether I can replicate what we've already seen here.

I'm probably going to do the trigger swap as soon as I get home tonight. I had the SSA-E sitting around from a prior AR-10 that I sold off.

Looking at the pic again, I think it’s 40.9. I think I misread your handwriting the first time I looked at it.

So, I’d shoot 40.9 again and if it repeats, start a seating depth test. Berger suggest .040” intervals for their test. I use .025” because it’s a single full turn on my Forster benchrest seater and it has produced good results for me.

Read this:

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

John

 

[acudaowner]

Id say it was less of a failure than you seem to think it is you went from not reloading to reloading with graphs of what you did , I just spent the last year trying to do almost the same thing but instead of graphs used 3x5 cards now fighting to figure out how to make a graph feel like a cave man pounding his head on a rock of his data most of which I think will be useless while some of it could be good lol . while I did find many loads using many different powder I like , some loads not so good while others Id shoot again . And in the future I am sure we both will get better at it while still failing from time to time best of luck to everyone trying to do it out there at least it's fun .

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I've been handloading since the mid-90's and I'll say right up front; if there are handloading secrets and shortcuts, I haven't found them yet.

I think your frustration stems from a very common misconception; we get all tangled up in details and futile pursuits of perfection. We seem hung up on the concept that if our load isn't 'perfect', it's wrong somewhere. We seek the ultimate best and most consistent groups, when such an animal may be both nearly impossible to find, and impossible to consistently repeat. We need to "Lighten up, Francis".

I spent at least decade trying out every one of the newest handloading complexities, and then about another decade trying to figure out which ones were "overkill:". I think that if somebody wants to retrace that route, good on 'em; but I'm taking it a lot easier now.

I have adopted the idea that some accuracy sacrifice is justifiable, even if only in the name of preserving our sanity. I said I didn't find the secrets or shortcuts, but that's not quite true, I made some allowances and got arbitrary where I figured it had less impact on accuracy. Sure there are many folks who can clean my clock on any given Saturday, but they work harder and pay a bunch more for that privilege.

I eliminated the following: Custom Chambers, adjusting seating depths to achieve small accuracy improvements, and expensive deluxe brass. I use the SAAMI chamber for several reasons. First, it's reportedly less dependent on concentricity, another one of those improvements that I shun. Next, buy a box of ammo off the shelf, and it is least likely to cause a safety issue (at 75, I sternly refuse to force my descendants to inherit chambers that can hurt them if they aren't accomplished handloaders). I don't need to turn necks to achieve neck tension goals (but I do have a means to alter tension another way).

I have arbitrarily chosen to adopt an across-the-board seating depth criteria, maximum magazine feeding length; another simplification that leaves my descendants doing just fine with commercial ammo.

I buy median priced brass because I'd rather do the proper case prep myself, not because it's cheaper or better (it may not actually be...), but because when I do it, I know who to blame if it's screwy.

I do own a Chrono. It sits NIB. I don't use it for accuracy determination, because like as not, ES/SD and the target are often in serious disagreement. I use it for one purpose, finding average MV, from which I can compute a Ballistic Drop Chart. Once I have that chart, I carefully heed its limitations. It only works at one density altitude and within a narrow temperature range. What I mean is that all those quests for perfect groups have a very fast expiry, as in the next day (or hour, even). They can be not nearly so good, because the environment changed. And therein lies the rub, accuracy is a moving target. It negates, with a mere toss of its little head, all the labors we submit ourselves to.

I have spent a lot of time at BR matches, mostly as a spectator and getting into some chat with the competitors. Those folks are so wrapped around the accuracy axle that they reload the same cases over and over between targets, altering loads in an all committed chase after fleeting 'Conditions". That kind of commitment is well beyond my abilities or needs.

My goals are different.

I seek the "hit" as defined by the shooter accepting that whatever they were shooting at would have been seriously derailed by the impact. How one defines that is at least partly a subjective matter.

They (BR folk) seek the ultimate groups diameter that equals the bullet diameter. If anyone's ever actually done that, I stand in ultimate awe, and I won't venture to ask for a repeat.

So here's my advice. You can load excellent ammo using mid-range priced equipment; be it dies, presses, or scales. It's how we use them that counts. The magic word is consistency, within human limits. Don't try to be a robot, just stick to a clear and basic routine, and make reasonable effort to achieve each step in as closely as possible a manner as all the others like it. Avoid distractions like the plague they are. Keeping that routine simpler is better, and easier to maintain consistently.

Greg

 

[ShaKr524]

I too have tried several methods of load development over the years (the flavor of the day). The last one I worked with was Erik Cortina's approach. It uses rounds on target and POI shift to show a consistent load window. I have found a few loads that were very good using this method. A point that I come back to though as I read all the "Saterlee, OCW, Ladder, etc............" articles is that you are statistically more likely to find a usable load than not. That is the only thing that explains why everyone's vudu works for them. You can certainly tweak with seating depth but thats a macro change from a decent start. I recently used GRT's load prediction tool and what do you know that worked too . What I do believe is more important than load development is reloading consistency. It appears to be the great equalizer in this game. If you don't load consistent ammo you are chasing a ghost no matter what ethos you subscribe to. The last thing I will mention is to set your goals first rather than chase size. Sam Millard from Panhandle Precision talked about this in a video and it really made sense to me. His point was pick a group size, ES/SD and target velocity range. Load some test ammo and when you meet that goal STOP load development and shoot! I think that is great advice. It can keep us from chasing the next best thing and wasting components in the process........ Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Best of luck .

 

[MNtadpole]

I too have tried several methods of load development over the years (the flavor of the day). The last one I worked with was Erik Cortina's approach. It uses rounds on target and POI shift to show a consistent load window. I have found a few loads that were very good using this method. A point that I come back to though as I read all the "Saterlee, OCW, Ladder, etc............" articles is that you are statistically more likely to find a usable load than not. That is the only thing that explains why everyone's vudu works for them. You can certainly tweak with seating depth but thats a macro change from a decent start. I recently used GRT's load prediction tool and what do you know that worked too . What I do believe is more important than load development is reloading consistency. It appears to be the great equalizer in this game. If you don't load consistent ammo you are chasing a ghost no matter what ethos you subscribe to. The last thing I will mention is to set your goals first rather than chase size. Sam Millard from Panhandle Precision talked about this in a video and it really made sense to me. His point was pick a group size, ES/SD and target velocity range. Load some test ammo and when you meet that goal STOP load development and shoot! I think that is great advice. It can keep us from chasing the next best thing and wasting components in the process........ Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Best of luck .

GRT is a fun program to use. I've taken a break from it for a little it, but I'm about to go play with it some more. I'm curious to see what it says my current chamber pressure is at. 40.9gr.

I think setting realistic goals is something that I've failed to do. My frustration with this sport is a product of not doing that, though I am a glutton for punishment. The more obscure the punishment the more I seeming willing to jump at it.

 

[mtang45]

Look at the groups you produced at 40.6, 40.9 and 41.2. The POI center of all three of those groups are pretty much the same place in relation to the POA. AND the best group popped up right in the middle. I would consider that as pretty strong evidence on what load to go with. Next try your seating depth test and see if tweaks in depth change what you see on paper. And yeah, a 7 lb trigger is not going to help with precision shooting.

Great advice from @Greg Langelius * and @ShaKr524

 

[MK20]

this is 3 rounds out of my bolt gun at 100m. It is 175 308 FGMM. Factory ammo is very good.

What you might do as well is find a factory ammo that your gun loves and duplicate it. Try Hornady Match 140. Hornady even gives you the load data on the package. If it gives you the velocity and accuracy and doesn't overpressure your gun (it won't), then your load development is done. Just duplicate the load.

 

[Long Range 338]

Semi autos are tough as they are a different world with different requirements than bolt guns. I’ve had the best luck not trying to push velocity but focusing on reliability and an acceptable degree of accuracy. As mentioned above half the accuracy equation could be my fault even though I shoot bolt guns reasonably well.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Hey,

I needs some fatherly and or sage advice on trying to find/develop loads for a few firearms. I have spent a great deal of time this whole past season trying to dial in loads, using velocity ladder testing, and I don't feel like I have really achieved any headway towards success. It's frustrating spending time shooting velocity ladders through a magneto speed chrono and not really get any definitive progress forward. Part of me wants to just abandon load development all together and just shoot. That way it feels less like a chore and more like the hobby it's supposed to be.

I'll highlight the process I used to conduct a velocity ladder test that I did on a 20" SS barreled LMT DMR (AR-10)in 6.5CM on 23SEP2021:

Ladder load was using Hornady 147gr ELD-M, H4350, Hornady brass, CCI 200 primers.

1. Fire-formed Hornady brass deprimed, annealed, and FL-sized -3 thou bump using a Redding bushing die.

2. Brass neck was put through a .261" mandrel to set neck tension at 3 thou.

3. Trim, chamfer, debur brass.

3. Brass was steel pin tumbled and dehydrator dried.

4. Dried brass is primed on Dillon 550C.

5. H4350 Powder is dropped via Charge Master in .2 of a grain increments from Hodgdon.com's Min to Max suggested powder charges. Loaded 3 rounds per charge weight.

6. Hornady 147gr ELD-M Bullets are seated via Redding micrometer seating die on Forster Co-Ax Press. Bullets were seated a few thou from maximum magazine length of the Magpul Pmag.


I went ahead and shot all 69 rounds of this ladder over a magneto speed chrono and then took the data to MS Excel to graph it. The attached .jpg should show my chronograph results.
View attachment 7709208


I know at this stage I should be looking for flat spots which are the velocity nodes to zero in on for future test. I feel like most of my results, and these ones in particular, are crap and unrevealing.

This is what I do identify here:

1. possible velocity node at 39.2-39.4gr(2524ish fps) & maybe something going on at 40.2 gr (2582fps).

2. very erratic velocity behavior between 39.4-40gr.

3. stead climb in velocity from 40.6gr-41.8gr (2609-2685fps) <- which is unfortunate, since I was hoping to grab a flat spot in the +2600fps areas.



Conclusions:

1. The powder charge limits, given by Hodgdon.com, were fine. The top charges resulted in only slight ejector smearing on the brass. No overly-flatten primers or blowouts.

2. Although some apparent flat spots were found, the velocities where they occurred seemed rather slow (2524 & 2582 fps).

3. The goal of locating a velocity flat spot at a speed above 2600fps wasn't achieved or found.

4. The averaging SD across all rungs of the ladder was 11. Usually speaking I was seeing low teens for SD and some single digits.



Questions to the Forum:

1. Am I missing something here with the collection of this data? Am I digging too deep?

2. Is the 147gr/H4350/AR10 combination just not working?

3. I'm having similar reloading blues with my bolt-actions. What do you recommend long term? LOL should I scrap load dev and just shoot!? I want to get to the next step here!

THANKS ALL!

1) Creighton Audette 2) Cortina

 

[clcustom1911]

View attachment 7712484

this is 3 rounds out of my bolt gun at 100m. It is 175 308 FGMM. Factory ammo is very good.

What you might do as well is find a factory ammo that your gun loves and duplicate it. Try Hornady Match 140. Hornady even gives you the load data on the package. If it gives you the velocity and accuracy and doesn't overpressure your gun (it won't), then your load development is done. Just duplicate the load.

YUP

I pretty much do/did exactly that. Makes things simple. I went down the rabbit hole of endless experimentation, etc and reloading lost the fun due to mounting frustrations. I was shooting to reload, not reloading to shoot.

In 6.5 creed I've duplicated Prime 130gr, Berger 130gr, Hornaday 147 factory ammo performance in my firearms. Hell, I've only done exactly 1 seating depth test in my 12 years of loading because I never saw a need to do it.

 

[frost1235]

Let me make it simple for you.

Use the chrono to find out;

1.) your max pressure
2.) where the velocities you are looking for are

Then run an OCW around that.

Example:
- You run however many rounds rounds, 1 shot each from 37.5 to 43gr.

- Stop when you get pressure.

- You want your rifle above 2600 fps? It's looking like 41.0gr to 42.2 has the velocity You're looking for?

- OCW from 40.8 to 42.2. See what works.

- Tune seating depth if you give a shit or have to.


I've tested volume/neck length/chamfer/neck tension/partially sizing the neck to grip the bullet/ and a few more tricks. Keep it simple.

 

[MK20]

Unless you are going to shoot bencherest forget the OCW stuff. It gives such diminishing returns in most good rifles.

 

[supercorndogs]

What do you mean by diminishing returns? I develop loads with OCW in less rounds than the OP has shot already.

I also see mentions of OCW, ladder, and Saterlee. Ladder and OCW testing, are not random load generators like the way people are using the "Saterlee method."

OCW is not a method one man came up with in a vacuum, it is one of the most misquoted and misunderstood methods of load development I can think of. It seems most who try to use it, have never read through the theory or instructions.

 

[clcustom1911]

All the mention of OCW without actually linking to the instructions by The Man himself...

OCW reloading instructions

OCW reloading overview and instructions

www.ocwreloading.com

I've never gone step-by-step with OCW before, but have been successful with finding several accurate loadings using its general concepts.

 

[smoothy8500]

OCW ... it is one of the most misquoted and misunderstood methods of load development I can think of. It seems most who try to use it, have never read through the theory or instructions.

No kidding

 

[MNtadpole]

1) Creighton Audette 2) Cortina

No joke on Cortina. I'm a member on his newly created website. He recently switch from Patreon to his own website. F-Class John is another great guy to follow on YouTube.

I enjoy following the pros, but doing things to the degree they are is burning me out. I'm trying to set more realistic goals for my self.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Semi autos are tough as they are a different world with different requirements than bolt guns. I’ve had the best luck not trying to push velocity but focusing on reliability and an acceptable degree of accuracy. As mentioned above half the accuracy equation could be my fault even though I shoot bolt guns reasonably well.

Keep port pressure within design parameters, find your low node with slightly faster powders. Accuracy can be found. Agree with you 100% don’t chase velocity.

 

[MNtadpole]

Let me make it simple for you.

Use the chrono to find out;

1.) your max pressure
2.) where the velocities you are looking for are

Then run an OCW around that.

Example:
- You run however many rounds rounds, 1 shot each from 37.5 to 43gr.

- Stop when you get pressure.

- You want your rifle above 2600 fps? It's looking like 41.0gr to 42.2 has the velocity You're looking for?

- OCW from 40.8 to 42.2. See what works.

- Tune seating depth if you give a shit or have to.


I've tested volume/neck length/chamfer/neck tension/partially sizing the neck to grip the bullet/ and a few more tricks. Keep it simple.

This is really what I'm about to do, and hopefully finish with my next range session. I'm going to repeat groups in the 40.2-41.2 range. Assuming I see repeated good results, I will be settling on a charge weight. I might play with seating depth...depends how I'm feeling.

I'm feeling good about the fact that I just swapped out that 7lbs factory 2-stage trigger for the 3lbs Geissele SSA-E.

I probably won't be able to hit the range until early next week. Once I do I will repost the progress.

 

[MNtadpole]

Keep port pressure within design parameters, find your low node with slightly faster powders. Accuracy can be found. Agree with you 100% don’t chase velocity.

Yea I had a lot of issues with a past Daniel Defense AR-10 in 6.5CM. It had some nasty cycling issues that I thought were reloading issues. Long story short, I no longer own the firearm and have the LMT in its place. The LMT seems to cycle perfectly fine throughout the whole ladder test that I did.

Speaking of chasing velocity, I feel like I'm not blindly chasing the speed here. All I was wanting was a load at least 2600+fps, granted it's kind of on the higher end. Do you think that's too high for 147gr? I'm really hoping that might next range session shows repeated good results to allow be to settle on a final charge weight.

Here's some of Hodgdon's load data, likely conservative like most publish load data.

LOL I guess my thought on loading for the 147gr bullet was to give it SOME gas, though not too much, so that the end result wouldn't be equivalent to lobbing a brick.

 

[MNtadpole]

Keep port pressure within design parameters, find your low node with slightly faster powders. Accuracy can be found. Agree with you 100% don’t chase velocity.

Maybe you're right though...I guess we'll see what happens when I take one of these higher loads out to farther distances. Technically, they could be terrible.

 

[MNtadpole]

Hey does anyone here use GRT for reloading? I've been playing with it for some time. I was curious to know what anyone makes of the calculated chamber pressures when compared to case head and primer condition.

I didn't see any ejector smearing or primer cratering.

The load I plugged into GRT is the 40.9gr H4350 that head repeated POI results from last range session.

 

[Seymour Fish]

No joke on Cortina. I'm a member on his newly created website. He recently switch from Patreon to his own website. F-Class John is another great guy to follow on YouTube.

I enjoy following the pros, but doing things to the degree they are is burning me out. I'm trying to set more realistic goals for my self.

I hear you on burning out. There has been a running debate for decades about necessary steps loading. You can eliminate tumbling brass, as Cortina has just started trying. Eliminate extensive powder work ups and simply do a 10-12 shot ladder at 100. Find a node every time. 100%. Load the middle of the node and shoot it at your max distance. It will be good enough. Can fine-tune in 0.1 grain powder increments around the node for grins and improvement. Weighing each powder charge is very important for max accuracy. Weighing/volume testing cases is a waste if you have a good lot of brass. Checking bullet runout is a waste. Good bullets don’t need various inspections nor pointing until you get to 1000 yd benchrest. Either anneal every time or Never. Seating depth: mag length to start in a semi. You can literally run a ladder and take the center of the node straight to a PRS match. Simple is IT.

 

[mtang45]

I hear you on burning out. There has been a running debate for decades about necessary steps loading. You can eliminate tumbling brass, as Cortina has just started trying. Eliminate extensive powder work ups and simply do a 10-12 shot ladder at 100. Find a node every time. 100%. Load the middle of the node and shoot it at your max distance. It will be good enough. Can fine-tune in 0.1 grain powder increments around the node for grins and improvement. Weighing each powder charge is very important for max accuracy. Weighing/volume testing cases is a waste if you have a good lot of brass. Checking bullet runout is a waste. Good bullets don’t need various inspections nor pointing until you get to 1000 yd benchrest. Either anneal every time or Never. Seating depth: mag length to start in a semi. You can literally run a ladder and take the center of the node straight to a PRS match. Simple is IT.

I'd be very interested hearing the details of this 10-12 shot ladder. If there is a viable shortcut, I'm all in for trying it out.

 

[Snuby642]

Get rid of the hornady eldm bullets. Get some Sierra or Bergers.

Turn off chrono.
Put eyes on paper groups.

Pick best group, verify with 5 shot GROUPS. Due a seating depth test. Verify best.

Check with crono and shoot the thing.

Edit: Look at the test barrel that your load data was coming from.

Was it a 24 or 28 inch barrel?
Was it a slow twist rate?
Take -30 fps per inch from your expectations right off the bat.