Needing Sage Advice on a Season of Failed Load Development

[MNtadpole]

Get rid of the hornady eldm bullets. Get some Sierra or Bergers.

Turn off chrono.
Put eyes on paper groups.

Pick best group, verify with 5 shot GROUPS. Due a seating depth test. Verify best.

Check with crono and shoot the thing.

Edit: Look at the test barrel that your load data was coming from.

Was it a 24 or 28 inch barrel?
Was it a slow twist rate?
Take -30 fps per inch from your expectations right off the bat.

So I take it you're not a fan of the ELD-M's, right? I used to be a SMK guy prior to the pandemic. Currently the costs of SMKs are prohibitively expensive. MidwayUSA has 140gr SMK for like 51 cents each...though they are out of stock. I remember getting them for like 35 cents each prior to the pandemic.

My barrel's twist rate matches the load data from Hodgdon. Oddly enough, my charge of 41.8gr of H4350 out of a 20" AR-10 matched their listed velocity of 41.8gr out of 24" barrel.

 

[Seymour Fish]

I'd be very interested hearing the details of this 10-12 shot ladder. If there is a viable shortcut, I'm all in for trying it out.

I'd be very interested hearing the details of this 10-12 shot ladder. If there is a viable shortcut, I'm all in for trying it out.

No joke on Cortina. I'm a member on his newly created website. He recently switch from Patreon to his own website. F-Class John is another great guy to follow on YouTube.

I enjoy following the pros, but doing things to the degree they are is burning me out. I'm trying to set more realistic goals for my self.

Mtang, single POA, start at bottom acceptable pressure load, go up 0.3 gr increments for 308 capacity etc, mark each impact on separate that at bench and number each, right on up to what you perceive to be top end. Should have a cluster across 1-1/2 gr powder. Rough node. Take the center charge and run it at distance. Fine tune at distance with 3 shot groups at 0.1 gr increments. Then monkey with seating depth. The rough node with an arbitrary seating depth which is “popular” for a given bullet profile usually gives you 1/2 Moa or better at say 600 to 1000. If not adequate , finish tuning as described. Pretty much what you already advised. For F-class you can’t beat the simplicity and results of Glasscocks winning in the wind tuning YouTube vids.
“Winning in the Wind”, Keith Glasscock on YouTube. cortina series with Jack Neary and Lou Murdica are excellent.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Mtang, single POA, start at bottom acceptable pressure load, go up 0.3 gr increments for 308 capacity etc, mark each impact on separate that at bench and number each, right on up to what you perceive to be top end. Should have a cluster across 1-1/2 gr powder. Rough node. Take the center charge and run it at distance. Fine tune at distance with 3 shot groups at 0.1 gr increments. Then monkey with seating depth. The rough node with an arbitrary seating depth which is “popular” for a given bullet profile usually gives you 1/2 Moa or better at say 600 to 1000. If not adequate , finish tuning as described. Pretty much what you already advised. For F-class you can’t beat the simplicity and results of Glasscocks winning in the wind tuning YouTube vids.
“Winning in the Wind”, Keith Glasscock on YouTube. cortina series with Jack Neary and Lou Murdica are excellent.

That’s separate Target ! At bench

 

[Snuby642]

So I take it you're not a fan of the ELD-M's, right? I used to be a SMK guy prior to the pandemic. Currently the costs of SMKs are prohibitively expensive. MidwayUSA has 140gr SMK for like 51 cents each...though they are out of stock. I remember getting them for like 35 cents each prior to the pandemic.

My barrel's twist rate matches the load data from Hodgdon. Oddly enough, my charge of 41.8gr of H4350 out of a 20" AR-10 matched their listed velocity of 41.8gr out of 24" barrel.

Not a fan of eldm / eldx type bullets when restricted by standard magazine length.

They eat up volume in the case and then the jump to the lands is huge.

I wasted a lot of time / powder in a couple of guns that didn't like them. I switched to Sierra, Berger and speer for those guns and all of a sudden loads came togeather quickly without hassles.

My experience was that they like to be loaded long.

And yes everyone is out of my favorite bullets and powder.

Getting the same velocity out of a 20 vs 24 inch must be nice. Seems I normally hit scatter node first and on some pressure next.

 

[mtang45]

Mtang, single POA, start at bottom acceptable pressure load, go up 0.3 gr increments for 308 capacity etc, mark each impact on separate that at bench and number each, right on up to what you perceive to be top end. Should have a cluster across 1-1/2 gr powder. Rough node. Take the center charge and run it at distance. Fine tune at distance with 3 shot groups at 0.1 gr increments. Then monkey with seating depth. The rough node with an arbitrary seating depth which is “popular” for a given bullet profile usually gives you 1/2 Moa or better at say 600 to 1000. If not adequate , finish tuning as described. Pretty much what you already advised. For F-class you can’t beat the simplicity and results of Glasscocks winning in the wind tuning YouTube vids.
“Winning in the Wind”, Keith Glasscock on YouTube. cortina series with Jack Neary and Lou Murdica are excellent.

I like it, I'll have to give it a try. Its essentially a simplified OCW, eliminating the three shots on separate targets and replacing it with the single shot "cluster" which replicates the string of multiple targets with the same (or close) POI. Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Seymour Fish]

I like it, I'll have to give it a try. Its essentially a simplified OCW, eliminating the three shots on separate targets and replacing it with the single shot "cluster" which replicates the string of multiple targets with the same (or close) POI. Thanks for the explanation!

yessir . saves time and $ . all credit to Creighton Audette . take care in your set-up . get comfortable . be deliberate . 2-3 foulers then space the ladder shots 1-2 min apart to keep barrel temp stable . works on a gas gun too . eliminates a source of error moving POA around. if you dont finde a node at least a grain of powder in width, change powder

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

yessir . saves time and $ . all credit to Creighton Audette . take care in your set-up . get comfortable . be deliberate . 2-3 foulers then space the ladder shots 1-2 min apart to keep barrel temp stable . works on a gas gun too . eliminates a source of error moving POA around. if you dont finde a node at least a grain of powder in width, change powder

A whole grain in width? I have found .6 gr in width but not a whole grain in width. What kind of velocity spread are you talking about for a whole grain width node?

 

[Barelstroker]

So I take it you're not a fan of the ELD-M's, right? I used to be a SMK guy prior to the pandemic. Currently the costs of SMKs are prohibitively expensive. MidwayUSA has 140gr SMK for like 51 cents each...though they are out of stock. I remember getting them for like 35 cents each prior to the pandemic.

My barrel's twist rate matches the load data from Hodgdon. Oddly enough, my charge of 41.8gr of H4350 out of a 20" AR-10 matched their listed velocity of 41.8gr out of 24" barrel.

Ahhh, use whatever projectile you want.
I haven't seen you say what sort of accuracy you're expecting.
There's no easy way to say this but, you have a gas gun with a 20" thinnish barrel which was never intended to shoot tiny groups, that's not what that rifle is for.
If you want extreme accuracy & repeatability you need to have a bolt action, heavy barrelled rifle. It's just that simple & that's where you have to be.
Think of it like this, the further you are away from an expensive heavy barrelled rifle, the bigger the group size expectation has to be. To be blunt, I think the group size expectation for that rifle on an ongoing basis should be at least 1.5 to 1.7 MOA. Sometimes you'll shoot 1/2 MOA & sometimes 2 MOA but, if the rifle can average 1.2 to 1.5 MOA, you're pretty much on target (pun intended) with the realistic expectations of that kind of rifle.

 

[Seymour Fish]

A whole grain in width? I have found .6 gr in width but not a whole grain in width. What kind of velocity spread are you talking about for a whole grain width node?

example: 308, rough node width of 1 to 1-1/2 grains. Say 3-4 shots at 0.3 grain increments. The sweet center of that will be 0.4 to 0.6 grains width and when tested in 0.1 grain steps using 3-shot groups you are likely to find that the lowest charge gives a flat waterline that is inordinately wind-sensitive, next step up gives bughole, next gives 3-1/2” group, next gives 4-1/2” group, next begins to spit a shot. This is repeatable off bipod with rear bag, best done in a mild steady condition. Your choice then comes down to managing risk of atmospherics dropping you off either edge of the node. Checking your seating depth node in 003 increments then advisable to be sure you are stay in the center of that. The chronograph is not used except to be sure you are operating in a safe MV range, until the load development is completed, and then to give a number to plug in to your ballistic app. Your ES should be under 10 as if by majic, and if not, weight-sort primers.

 

[Barelstroker]

example: 308, rough node width of 1 to 1-1/2 grains. Say 3-4 shots at 0.3 grain increments. The sweet center of that will be 0.4 to 0.6 grains width and when tested in 0.1 grain steps using 3-shot groups you are likely to find that the lowest charge gives a flat waterline that is inordinately wind-sensitive, next step up gives bughole, next gives 3-1/2” group, next gives 4-1/2” group, next begins to spit a shot. This is repeatable off bipod with rear bag, best done in a mild steady condition. Your choice then comes down to managing risk of atmospherics dropping you off either edge of the node. Checking your seating depth node in 003 increments then advisable to be sure you are stay in the center of that. The chronograph is not used except to be sure you are operating in a safe MV range, until the load development is completed, and then to give a number to plug in to your ballistic app. Your ES should be under 10 as if by majic, and if not, weight-sort primers.

The Op is talking about an AR10 in 6.5 Cravemore.
0.1 grain steps & weight sorting of primers just don't apply.

 

[Seymour Fish]

The Op is talking about an AR10 in 6.5 Cravemore.
0.1 grain steps & weight sorting of primers just don't apply.

one can draw the line anywhere as to level of accuracy required vs time spent. The same principles apply to any rifle/cartridge/action.

 

[Barelstroker]

one can draw the line anywhere as to level of accuracy required vs time spent. The same principles apply to any rifle/cartridge/action.

Well, the same principals can apply if you want them to but, they certainly don't apply in reality.
Semi auto gas gun with sloppy chamber & gas pissing out everywhere. I don't think so.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Yea I had a lot of issues with a past Daniel Defense AR-10 in 6.5CM. It had some nasty cycling issues that I thought were reloading issues. Long story short, I no longer own the firearm and have the LMT in its place. The LMT seems to cycle perfectly fine throughout the whole ladder test that I did.

Speaking of chasing velocity, I feel like I'm not blindly chasing the speed here. All I was wanting was a load at least 2600+fps, granted it's kind of on the higher end. Do you think that's too high for 147gr? I'm really hoping that might next range session shows repeated good results to allow be to settle on a final charge weight.

Here's some of Hodgdon's load data, likely conservative like most publish load data.

View attachment 7713288

LOL I guess my thought on loading for the 147gr bullet was to give it SOME gas, though not too much, so that the end result wouldn't be equivalent to lobbing a brick.

I've been shooting 147g ELD's in my RPR for several years now using Superformance. Its yielding faster velocities than factory 147g Hornady ammo which is 2690 fps and average just under 1/2 MOA groups at 1000 pretty consistently. My velocities with Superformance are upper 2700 fps.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

example: 308, rough node width of 1 to 1-1/2 grains. Say 3-4 shots at 0.3 grain increments. The sweet center of that will be 0.4 to 0.6 grains width and when tested in 0.1 grain steps using 3-shot groups you are likely to find that the lowest charge gives a flat waterline that is inordinately wind-sensitive, next step up gives bughole, next gives 3-1/2” group, next gives 4-1/2” group, next begins to spit a shot. This is repeatable off bipod with rear bag, best done in a mild steady condition. Your choice then comes down to managing risk of atmospherics dropping you off either edge of the node. Checking your seating depth node in 003 increments then advisable to be sure you are stay in the center of that. The chronograph is not used except to be sure you are operating in a safe MV range, until the load development is completed, and then to give a number to plug in to your ballistic app. Your ES should be under 10 as if by majic, and if not, weight-sort primers.

I'm not really sure what to say to this, but that doesn't describe a " whole grain wide node".

I guess there is some variation on the definition of a node, but what I and I think most refer to as " a node" is a powder charge range where the powder charge increases yet the velocity per change has a minimal amount of change. Such as 43.3 grains - 43.9 grains of powder and only 9 fps difference between the two ends of that range, and thus very minimal increase in the middle of that range of powder charge.


Maybe some powders do have a whole grain width node, but I haven't ever seen that with any that myself or my buddies have used.

 

[Seymour Fish]

I'm not really sure what to say to this, but that doesn't describe a " whole grain wide node".

I'm not really sure what to say to this, but that doesn't describe a " whole grain wide node".

I guess there is some variation on the definition of a node, but what I and I think most refer to as " a node" is a powder charge range where the powder charge increases yet the velocity per change has a minimal amount of change. Such as 43.3 grains - 43.9 grains of powder and only 9 fps difference between the two ends of that range, and thus very minimal increase in the middle of that range of powder charge.


Maybe some powders do have a whole grain width node, but I haven't ever seen that with any that myself or my buddies have used.

I guess there is some variation on the definition of a node, but what I and I think most refer to as " a node" is a powder charge range where the powder charge increases yet the velocity per change has a minimal amount of change. Such as 43.3 grains - 43.9 grains of powder and only 9 fps difference between the two ends of that range, and thus very minimal increase in the middle of that range of powder charge.


Maybe some powders do have a whole grain width node, but I haven't ever seen that with any that myself or my buddies have used.

Give yourself 10-20 yrs, and get back to me.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Give yourself 10-20 yrs, and get back to me.

And, the second half of the example is at 1000 yds. Oops

 

[Dthomas3523]

A whole grain in width? I have found .6 gr in width but not a whole grain in width. What kind of velocity spread are you talking about for a whole grain width node?

“Velocity nodes” are simply a misunderstanding of flat waterlines (positive compensation and such) when chronographs became popular. Positive compensation is a whole other discussion.

Powder charges don’t magically have substantially less velocity increase randomly in the middle of standard charge weights. You’ll be dabbling in high pressure when that starts to happen.

Any experience you have with these “velocity nodes” is simply a product of low sample size. Any long term testing don’t by anyone has shown it doesn’t hold up over the long haul.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

“Velocity nodes” are simply a misunderstanding of flat waterlines (positive compensation and such) when chronographs became popular. Positive compensation is a whole other discussion.

Powder charges don’t magically have substantially less velocity increase randomly in the middle of standard charge weights. You’ll be dabbling in high pressure when that starts to happen.

Any experience you have with these “velocity nodes” is simply a product of low sample size. Any long term testing don’t by anyone has shown it doesn’t hold up over the long haul.

I'm pretty new to reloading so I will just take your word for it. Can you break that down a little though? This may be exactly what I'm seeing and wanting to figure out so I'd appreciate any info you can provide on the subject.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Give yourself 10-20 yrs, and get back to me.

That's fair enough, I don't know that much about reloading so you are probably right. I will re-read it and see if I can pick up a little more then.

 

[Seymour Fish]

That's fair enough, I don't know that much about reloading so you are probably right. I will re-read it and see if I can pick up a little more then.

My last post on “nodes” , on re-reading it, was confusing in that the fine tuning of the powder node was to be done at your max distance. In the “308” case, It was a description of what you might find at 1000 yards.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

My last post on “nodes” , on re-reading it, was confusing in that the fine tuning of the powder node was to be done at your max distance. In the “308” case, It was a description of what you might find at 1000 yards.

Ok, I see what you were saying.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Ok, I see what you were saying.

It would be of great help to study “winning in the wind” on YouTube done by Keith Glasscock, specifically his tutorials on loading for precision. Also, Eric Cortina’s interviews with both Jack Neary and Lou Murdica. You can take what these guys say to the bank.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

It would be of great help to study “winning in the wind” on YouTube done by Keith Glasscock, specifically his tutorials on loading for precision. Also, Eric Cortina’s interviews with both Jack Neary and Lou Murdica. You can take what these guys say to the bank.

Ok, I will absolutely do that. I've watched some of Cortina's stuff a few times and I like how he goes about things. I will check all of that out for sure.


You can check out my post in the 6.5 StaBall thread if you'd like and see that I found out just what you and @dthwere saying I believe. I found a "node" and then when I did my seating depth test and was shooting the middle of that "node" to check dope, I got pressure signs where I hadn't before..... there's pics and more explanation IThatT

 

[chevy_man]

In theory, velocity flat spots are fine, but all that really matters is what happens on the target. Did you put the loads on paper?

John

They exist.

You just need to be ultra consistent in your powder charges and neck tension, and shoot at least 10 rounds at each powder charge.

1 round per charge weight will just give you false hopes. Cheap scales won't do it for you either.


I didn't find good flat spots with es of 15 and sd under 5 until I invested in an fx7i and inside neck mandrels.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

They exist.

You just need to be ultra consistent in your powder charges and neck tension, and shoot at least 10 rounds at each powder charge.

1 round per charge weight will just give you false hopes. Cheap scales won't do it for you either.


I didn't find good flat spots with es of 15 and sd under 5 until I invested in an fx7i and inside neck mandrels.

I have a fx-120i and I could do a 10 round per charge weight test.... so you are saying if I did it that way, I could indeed find a "velocity flat spot" ? How wide of a spot might that be? This conflicts with what the other guys are saying of course so..... I have a lot of reading to do I reckon....

 

[chevy_man]

I have a fx-120i and I could do a 10 round per charge weight test.... so you are saying if I did it that way, I could indeed find a "velocity flat spot" ? How wide of a spot might that be? This conflicts with what the other guys are saying of course so..... I have a lot of reading to do I reckon....

I put the loads on paper over a Chrono.

I see places where the velocity flattens but the groups are erratic. Theory is this is a place where the powder charge is happy but bullet exits in the middle of a cycle of barrel whip. Ideally you need to find the happy spot at the top of the cycle, where there is a dwell time as the barrel changes direction.
Obviously you'll see this much more often and clearly with very light barrels, and sometimes not at all with heavy barrels.

Generally I'll see a place where it shoots well and also doesn't change velocity much over .5+ grns.

I will run 10, 10 shot groups to find happy velocity. Another 5, 10 shot groups to find a happy seating depth (I'm a believer in big jumps, stay away from the lands and don't ever really need to tune them again).

Last few cheap remage and factory barrels have had .25moa results.

Necks were a big thing that was screwing with my consistency also.

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[Seymour Fish]

Ok, I will absolutely do that. I've watched some of Cortina's stuff a few times and I like how he goes about things. I will check all of that out for sure.


You can check out my post in the 6.5 StaBall thread if you'd like and see that I found out just what you and @dthwere saying I believe. I found a "node" and then when I did my seating depth test and was shooting the middle of that "node" to check dope, I got pressure signs where I hadn't before..... there's pics and more explanation IThatT

think of seating depth as a U-shaped curve where at one end you are in the lands/ jammed and pressure goes up even though useable case capacity is a bit larger vs the other end where capacity is lessened, creating more pressure. to further muddy these waters, take a look at Chris Longs "barrel time theory" . easy to back-test it using Exact measurements plugged into QuickLoad . high percentage of best loads are at 1-2% Longer barrel time than his data predicts . Talked to him about that and he said thats what he has found empirically . even so, trust the target

 

[Seymour Fish]

I put the loads on paper over a Chrono.

I see places where the velocity flattens but the groups are erratic. Theory is this is a place where the powder charge is happy but bullet exits in the middle of a cycle of barrel whip. Ideally you need to find the happy spot at the top of the cycle, where there is a dwell time as the barrel changes direction.
Obviously you'll see this much more often and clearly with very light barrels, and sometimes not at all with heavy barrels.

Generally I'll see a place where it shoots well and also doesn't change velocity much over .5+ grns.

I will run 10, 10 shot groups to find happy velocity. Another 5, 10 shot groups to find a happy seating depth (I'm a believer in big jumps, stay away from the lands and don't ever really need to tune them again).

Last few cheap remage and factory barrels have had .25moa results.

Necks were a big thing that was screwing with my consistency also.

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You are treading close to "positive compensation theory", which is for real in certain platforms as you point out. it seems a relatively rigid barrel is best tuned as you describe, and will hold up from short range on out . a setup with some extra whip may tune best where a slower bllet exits at a higher angle than a fast one such that they both hit the same POI at a given distance , ie on the last of the upswing . a ladder will prove this up . on seating depth, it makes sense that if you have a wide node, you would seat near the long end to allow some erosion "give". its a hell of a lot of fun to tune those cheap guns , and my results are about the same.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

think of seating depth as a U-shaped curve where at one end you are in the lands/ jammed and pressure goes up even though useable case capacity is a bit larger vs the other end where capacity is lessened, creating more pressure. to further muddy these waters, take a look at Chris Longs "barrel time theory" . easy to back-test it using Exact measurements plugged into QuickLoad . high percentage of best loads are at 1-2% Longer barrel time than his data predicts . Talked to him about that and he said thats what he has found empirically . even so, trust the target

So, if you don't mind... what is your process to figure it out with a new bullet and new barrel?

 

[Seymour Fish]

So, if you don't mind... what is your process to figure it out with a new bullet and new barrel?

i break in a new barrel looking to remove any burr left by chamber cutting so as to get an honest estimation of touch and hard jam , pick a typical seating depth regarding bullet profile, and find powder node, then seating node. despite arguments to the contrary, I always jam a VLD, seat a hybrid .005 off and a tangent ojive .015 off to start

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

i break in a new barrel looking to remove any burr left by chamber cutting so as to get an honest estimation of touch and hard jam , pick a typical seating depth regarding bullet profile, and find powder node, then seating node. despite arguments to the contrary, I always jam a VLD, seat a hybrid .005 off and a tangent ojive .015 off to start

This sounds like double talk regarding a node, though I'm sure it's not. So you do in fact look for a node to start off with then? You just then go adjust your seating depth at distance? Trying to understand the whole process you are talking about. Thanks for the input.

 

[Seymour Fish]

This sounds like double talk regarding a node, though I'm sure it's not. So you do in fact look for a node to start off with then? You just then go adjust your seating depth at distance? Trying to understand the whole process you are talking about. Thanks for the input.

1) powder node 2) seating depth node IF you need it. 3) done. And I’m out