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PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!
- Thread starter Cjwise5
- Start date
I guess you guys advocating trigger weight rules are are anti 2nd amdenment. It’s not people that kill people it’s guns that kill people. A two stage 8oz trigger is by no means unsafe and people use less on hunting rifles but go ahead and advocate punishment for the entire group because of the behavior of few.
I couldn't care less about trigger weights, it's up to the MDs and series directors if they want to implement whatever they want. After all it's their business.
Maybe you have something constructive to add to this thread? Maybe a suggestion to help improve safety?
You specifically commented on the safety of my triggers and if you look back you will see the person that started this post quoted me about how the safety culture is changing. So you can to hell. I’ve even contributed pictures such as this which is how rifles should be staged. This entire thread is a bunch of weekend warriors that probably don’t even shoot PRS throwing in there opinions on something they know nothing about.
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My post wasn't about your triggers specifically. It seems you're making a lot of assumptions about people. Many of us in here shoot a lot of matches, one and/or two day, we just don't go around flaunting it and using it to put others we know nothing about, down.
Your staging idea is a great idea. I think rifle racks would be even one step further.
Now that staging has been addressed. Lets address a few other things. How do we stop:
1) The constant muzzle flagging?
2) Minimizing and ultimately eliminating NDs?
3) Fairly and equitably addressing NDs when they do happen? All while emphasizing that they are unacceptable.
I'm open to hearing your input.
Your staging idea is a great idea. I think rifle racks would be even one step further.
Now that staging has been addressed. Lets address a few other things. How do we stop:
1) The constant muzzle flagging?
2) Minimizing and ultimately eliminating NDs?
3) Fairly and equitably addressing NDs when they do happen? All while emphasizing that they are unacceptable.
I'm open to hearing your input.
Nobody is saying you can't have a 2 oz trigger on your rifle. They are advocating for a rule change to prevent you from using it in this competition. You are allowed to own a rifle that shoots a bullet faster than 3200, you just can't use it in a PRS competition. Advocating for rules in a competition has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
It's pretty simply really, lets track the trigger weights for ND's for a season, if lighter triggers don't directly correspond with ND incidents, then there's no correlation and it's not an issue. However, if it does that will clearly show that the whole of PRS competitors or the nature of the competition itself is not safe enough for them. It doesn't matter if you or I never have an ND, we need to strive to get to a point where no one in PRS does. Unfortunately safety rules have to be made for the lowest common denominator, we can do things to change the denominator, but in the face of the lack of resources or willingness of competitors to do that, other options must be taken for safety. I think the point is, if we do something about equipment or not, what we're doing now isn't working.
The culture has to change as well, we've seen many examples of safety violations at PRS events recently, and just as many showing squad members and other competitors not saying anything with violations occur. Heck we even have multiple guys watching a competitor have a squib load and letting him fire a second round blowing up his rifle instead of calling cease fire.
The culture has to change as well, we've seen many examples of safety violations at PRS events recently, and just as many showing squad members and other competitors not saying anything with violations occur. Heck we even have multiple guys watching a competitor have a squib load and letting him fire a second round blowing up his rifle instead of calling cease fire.
You won’t eliminate NDs, best case proper handling is followed and they go in a safe direction...3gun, uspsa, etc, etc have NDs all the time...it’s just part of it in a time/stress game...mentioning eliminating NDs is a pipe dream...I’m not saying we can’t work to reduce them and punish them when it does, but we gotta be realistic
Also, tracking trigger weight data won’t really mean anything...the vast majority of guys are running light triggers...if 80% of the field are running sub 1lb then of course the majority of the NDs will fall in that group of shooters, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have happened with 2lb triggers also
I agree there’s needs to be a push for change and mainly for the current rules to be upheld regardless of shooter, but let’s not get carried away and start throwing misguided solutions around
Also, tracking trigger weight data won’t really mean anything...the vast majority of guys are running light triggers...if 80% of the field are running sub 1lb then of course the majority of the NDs will fall in that group of shooters, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have happened with 2lb triggers also
I agree there’s needs to be a push for change and mainly for the current rules to be upheld regardless of shooter, but let’s not get carried away and start throwing misguided solutions around
Negligent discharges are not a problem as long as the basic rules of gun safety are followed. If someone negligently or accidentally fires a shot that impacts an area which is safe I would not be as upset as I would be at someone who points a gun in an unsafe direction even if they never fire a shot because guns do malfunction, as do all mechanical things. Pointing a firearm in a safe direction is way more important than not having a negligent discharge. Now granted an ND/AD should not happen either but I would choose a shot fired into a safe area over someone who points a gun at me any day.
That's true but the problem with some long rifle ranges is a couple degrees too high, or too low with a skip and it's no longer a safe direction. I guess you could have a 2-teir ND rule, with one lighter punishment for an ND that is contained by a berm/backstop and one that either skips around/over or flat out goes over a berm.
I'm sorry but how in the world do you have a "negligent discharge" while following the basic gun safety rules exactly?
Switching from “safe” to “fire” on an old R700. This is negligence more on the part of the manufacturer than the shooter, but it’s still negligence - if the discharge was in an unsafe direction, that’s also severe negligence on the shooter’s part.
Edit: and if the shooter didn’t send their rifle in for service when that option was introduced, also shooter negligence in this specific case. New widgets have new failure modes though.
Remember, we’re dealing with imperfect mechanical systems. World-class process control will result in ~3 defects per million components, and results of defective parts in action can be variable in occurrence.
I’d support a tiered system of:
1. Shooter Negligence (DQ)
2. Equipment Failure (Stage Zero, DQ if it occurs again)
OK that's an accidental discharge, not negligence, but I agree the gun should be in a safe direction once the safety is off. I must say in almost 37 years of dealing with firearms I haven't had a single one do anything on it's own.
This.
It's very easy to make a rem 700 trigger go on bolt close. All it takes is an incompetent person making adjustments.
And I have a modified 60's 700 trigger. It's perfect, but it also passed the beating on the ground and with a mallet test. Along with the sear reset to make sure the spring pulls the trigger back forward ( number 1 way to make it discharge when turning the safety off).
here is a scenario that happened out our club match this past weekend:
shooting off a tank trap. First squad to shoot it that day. First shooter of the stage sets his game changer on the top leg of the tank trap and sets his rifle on it. as soon as he puts his hand on top of his scope to put some downward pressure on his rifle, the tank trap collapses a good 6 inches or more. it basically wasn't "settled" down all the way and when pressure was applied - it finally settled.
thankfully - shooter had his finger outside of the trigger guard because he wasn't ready to shoot yet. however, that tank trap could have easily "decided" to fall when he was on target and finger on trigger about to break a shot, which would have almost surely resulted in the trigger being pulled and the round going somewhere he wasn't aiming.
i personally think the lesson from this is for the MD's to be entirely sure of the integrity of the props. because it could lead to what i would consider an ACTUAL "accidental" discharge.
There was no way for shooter to know the tank trap wasn't "settled". you aren't allowed to go touching and setting up on the props before you shoot. we have to trust that what we are shooting off of is "stable", meaning it's not going to fall over or collapse on us under completely normal use.
just some food for thought.
shooting off a tank trap. First squad to shoot it that day. First shooter of the stage sets his game changer on the top leg of the tank trap and sets his rifle on it. as soon as he puts his hand on top of his scope to put some downward pressure on his rifle, the tank trap collapses a good 6 inches or more. it basically wasn't "settled" down all the way and when pressure was applied - it finally settled.
thankfully - shooter had his finger outside of the trigger guard because he wasn't ready to shoot yet. however, that tank trap could have easily "decided" to fall when he was on target and finger on trigger about to break a shot, which would have almost surely resulted in the trigger being pulled and the round going somewhere he wasn't aiming.
i personally think the lesson from this is for the MD's to be entirely sure of the integrity of the props. because it could lead to what i would consider an ACTUAL "accidental" discharge.
There was no way for shooter to know the tank trap wasn't "settled". you aren't allowed to go touching and setting up on the props before you shoot. we have to trust that what we are shooting off of is "stable", meaning it's not going to fall over or collapse on us under completely normal use.
just some food for thought.
Weird post. PRS is full of "weekend warriors" - thats kind of the point of the sport in all reality. Its a hobby, not a job or profession. And I say this as someone who shoots PRS matches.
I don't agree with mandatory minimum trigger weights, but there definitely needs to be a step change in the safety culture of the sport.
Yep. Trigger weight has nothing to do with safety. It's someone dropping a loaded weapon, or walking off the line with a round chambered, or chambering a round and closing the bolt without actually being "on target" ready to fire. Once you are on the gun ready to go, what's the difference?
I'll even argue that lighter triggers improves safety via increased shot consistency. That's why we run light triggers right? Improved shot consistency means misses are closer to the target and more impacts on target. Advocating for heavier triggers to alleviate an accidental trigger press while reducing accuracy and consistency for the other 99.99% of rounds being sent down range is the wrong approach and IMO reduces safety down range of the target.
Completely agree with this. In the same regard some of the props are getting ridiculous two weeks ago we shot off a gate if you weren’t tall enough to reach the top you got an unstable step ladder to climb on and climb down well on the clock. I refused to do it because it wasn’t safe and told them to give me a zero for those two points. I understand the sports evolving but instead of coming with more and more ridiculous things to shoot off why not make the targets smaller to make it more competitive.
The issue is rarely light triggers, or triggers are mechanically "unsafe". The issues are people not following proper safety protocols.
Such as the following:
We need to start penalizing and calling people out, including the "top shooters", and have a step change in mentality on how we perceive safety and creating a culture of accountability. Nothing is going to change unless we start holding people accountable - especially the "top shooters" that people are generally afraid to call out.
Such as the following:
- "sky loading" rounds - closing bolts when the sights are not on target. Sometimes when they are not even in the same hemisphere. The more experienced/"jersey" shooters are commonly very guilty of this. Common practice amongst some to shave some time off the clock.
- Keeping bolts closed in staging areas, sometimes even with magazines in. In windy and dusty areas, some shooters will keep their bolts closed to keep dust out of the action. Again, some of the more experienced shooters are guilty of this.
- Flagging people/not keeping rifle pointed in safe direction. Most commonly seen when shooters are moving their rifles from stage to stage. Usually the more inexperienced shooters are guilty of this.
- Trigger on finger when not ready to send one. You can argue that light triggers can be a factor, but ultimately if the finger is not on the trigger, the rifle shouldn't go off.
We need to start penalizing and calling people out, including the "top shooters", and have a step change in mentality on how we perceive safety and creating a culture of accountability. Nothing is going to change unless we start holding people accountable - especially the "top shooters" that people are generally afraid to call out.
Something I've gotten in the habit of doing is to close and reopen my bolt, after removing the magazine and while on the shooting line, each time I complete a stage. I follow this up with a ECI that has elastic on it to close the bolt.
Maybe what should be required is the same thing as IDPA. Return the bolt to battery and pull the trigger.
Maybe what should be required is the same thing as IDPA. Return the bolt to battery and pull the trigger.
how about mandatory orange/red plastic magazines that only fit with bolt open.
use them like a action flag
between stages or when sitting around your rifle needs a big chink of orange plastic hanging out if it
cant remove until set up on stage
noticeable, cheap
use them like a action flag
between stages or when sitting around your rifle needs a big chink of orange plastic hanging out if it
cant remove until set up on stage
noticeable, cheap
They work bolt won’t close I love them I hate shoving plastic down my barrel but PRS won’t approve bolt blocks and someone told me last weekend Jim See wouldn’t allow them at a NRL match which I thought they were approved for
And you could easily have a live round sitting in the chamber in front of that big chunk of orange plastic.
There's another thread "how to own an ND" where a shooter talks about an ND that occurred because he loaded a round at the end of the stage and when he opened the bolt it remained in the chamber.
Exactly they can’t approve a safety product that in all aspects is better than a eci because it doesn’t confirm there isn’t a round in the chamber. I don’t know how many times chamber flags have dropped off on me. I’ve never lost my bolt block. I guarantee you can still put a chamber flag on a rifle with a round in the chamber. Which is better a chamber flag flying off and a bolt closing when your walking around with a round in the chamber or round being in the chamber after you remove your bolt block and are on the stage ready to shoot.
If you use a bolt block properly there is no way to cause a ND at the beginning of the stage I pull out the block and put in my magazine my bolt is not going anywhere. If there is a round in the chamber when I’m on target and close my bolt I’m going to have a FTF. When done with the stage I immediately remove my mag and put in my bolt blockin. You can’t force the bolt forward.
Sorry I’m done I don’t argue with people that are mentally challenged I argued safer and I said you could install a chamber flag with round in the chamber not everyone shoves them clear up their bung hole. I’ve seen magnetic ones that just stick to the side. Your assuming everyone uses chamber flags correctly NOT the case. It’s hard to use a bolt block wrong. You keep shoving plastic down her hot chamber. I’ll use my bolt block.?
No you just insult anyone who disagrees with you and won't concede that you're right and they're wrong.
This is the second or third time you've called me stupid and then exited a thread. Hell, you've done it at least once to another member in this thread.
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I’m not but hurt newb I’m not the one shoving chamber flags up my ass. I make to much an hour to deal with you. Shit you already owe around $150.
I thought you were done with this thread... You're 41 years old and are trying to win an argument on the internet by calling be a "newb" and bragging about how much you make in an hour? Really?
Hi,
OT but you do work for the School System, right?
So you make that amount yet all we hear on TV is about how underpaid school system employees are?
Sincerely,
Theis
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If he does work for the school system, I think he should get his money back on his degree.
Can't spell, doesn't use punctuation properly.
Gym teacher?
Evil plastic chamber flag every shooter had to comply with. Yet I didn’t hear anyone bitching.
1) If your chamber flag is falling out. You're using it wrong.
2) The riflekuhl, chamber chiller etc solve both the empty chamber and the hot barrel issue.
3) If you think you're above having an ND. You're part of the problem.
2) The riflekuhl, chamber chiller etc solve both the empty chamber and the hot barrel issue.
3) If you think you're above having an ND. You're part of the problem.
Considering the amount of help people give to new shooters, sharing wind calls, and sharing gear, it's disturbing to see people trying to push the acceptance of NDs as part of the sport. In any other shooting competition, an ND is usually grounds for a stage DQ if not a match DQ.
Honestly and logically, if you were in a secret squirrel situation, and launched a round at a teammate/bystander negligently, you'd be in jail. Competition wise, it's going to be a major barrier that will one day lead to the sport's plateau and decline.
Honestly and logically, if you were in a secret squirrel situation, and launched a round at a teammate/bystander negligently, you'd be in jail. Competition wise, it's going to be a major barrier that will one day lead to the sport's plateau and decline.
Video is down, is it any where else?
They shouldn't happen, but they do. It all depends how the MD, RO, and Shooter handle the situation. A match DQ is appropriate.
I like how Jacob runs his matches down in Rifles Only. Mag out when moving from position to position.
If the shooters don't like it they don't have to come to the match. Safety is Numero Uno.
The ND is the focus of this thread, but how about the shooter lying about it? That pisses a guy off equally, That information should be given to the MD and the shooter should get 0 points for the match for lying.
They shouldn't happen, but they do. It all depends how the MD, RO, and Shooter handle the situation. A match DQ is appropriate.
I like how Jacob runs his matches down in Rifles Only. Mag out when moving from position to position.
If the shooters don't like it they don't have to come to the match. Safety is Numero Uno.
The ND is the focus of this thread, but how about the shooter lying about it? That pisses a guy off equally, That information should be given to the MD and the shooter should get 0 points for the match for lying.
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I removed the video. I explained why somewhere in the first few pages of this thread if you're interested.
I did paintball tournaments back in the day and that sport heavily relies on the honor system. We'd be the losers running gorpros and contour cams on our barrels for after match studies, and the amount of times players would hide a hit my covering themselves with old paint from the bunkers, or hiding the shot to wipe was obscene at NATIONAL tournaments.
That's what got myself, and MANY others out of it. What does it matter if you play by the rules and no one epse does? Lack of honor/integrity.
In PRS, lying about safety is the same thing in my book. You were careless, unaware, leading to a sending a round off unintentionally. You just tossed the PRECISION part of PRS out the window.
Maybe if you quickly acknowledge an ND, you could either just get DQ'd for that stage and or keep whatever points you had up to the ND, and get to continue shooting for the day.
Whereas if you try to hide it, you're done for the rest of the competition and the points you had for the day is subtracted from your overall score.
Harsh? Yeah it is. But a lack of integrity will SEVERELY effect the future of the sport.
That's what got myself, and MANY others out of it. What does it matter if you play by the rules and no one epse does? Lack of honor/integrity.
In PRS, lying about safety is the same thing in my book. You were careless, unaware, leading to a sending a round off unintentionally. You just tossed the PRECISION part of PRS out the window.
Maybe if you quickly acknowledge an ND, you could either just get DQ'd for that stage and or keep whatever points you had up to the ND, and get to continue shooting for the day.
Whereas if you try to hide it, you're done for the rest of the competition and the points you had for the day is subtracted from your overall score.
Harsh? Yeah it is. But a lack of integrity will SEVERELY effect the future of the sport.
I was playing paintball back when the semiauto markers were new, and not so great. A couple friends and I were running pump guns that could shoot lights out at 50y. There was a whole crew of guys running Tippman 68s (new semi-auto guns) in our area who were notorious for wiping paint. They were also friends with a bunch of the guys running the field, so they got away with it. We handled it our own way. Relentless head/neck shots after a wipe had a way of making those guys leave the field with hosed goggles and huge bruises. Fuck cheaters. We'd paint up their guns, too, which just led to further malfunctions for them.
On the thread topic, I still maintain the answer is proper RO'ing, proper match setup for safety (providing solid staging areas or rifle racks, etc), and everyone policing everyone. There need to be enough ROs with a clue on each stage to properly spot and watch the shooter. This can be done with 2 people on most stages, if they both have experience, but obviously three is better for big matches. The ROs and MD need to start sending people home when they fuck up, with no second chances. You muzzle someone, you leave. You're found with a staged or moving gun lacking a chamber flag, you go home. You light off a round when you're not on the gun and preparing to shoot, DQ.
When word gets around that the MDs are actually serious about safety, the behavior will change. When shooters start harassing other shooters about safety infractions - and taking a hard stance about it - behavior will change. It's not about trigger weights, or dialing turrets after a stage, or whatever. It's about a mindset and culture around safety. You can make all the rules you want, but if the MD and the rest of the match staff won't enforce the rules (equally, for all competitors regardless of what shirt they're wearing that day), any rule you make doesn't matter a bit.
Well it was “unintentional” sooooooo............
Ok this sounds great and perfect and for the most part will never happen. Frank came up to Mo years ago and got our state competitions kicked off and it took off!! We have new people coming to matches all the time. Nearly every match with no training what so ever. I see this as just part of the internet effect you tube culture. No one takes the time and spends the money on any real training or practices much for that matter. They just show up with rifle and want to "try it". There was never any system developed to handle the new shooter, to officially educate or even watch them through the match. They are simply lumped in with all the rest and after match gets going everyone tends to fend for themselves. I just shot a match with a lot of newer not new but newer... i.e. unpracticed who actually become a burden when they get to overwhelming numbers in a single squad. It was flat difficult to carry on in any serious manner all day. About the only thing we DIDNT see was an ND. But then again I was so busy running the stop watch and score pad and trying to keep an eye in a spotting scope I could have missed it. I love this sport and enjoy the excitement of a new shooter but this is not SF. These are enthusiasts, sports people. But I do believe there should be an arm band that all first year shooters should have to wear or those under x amount of matches. At the very least it might keep them all from ending up in my squad lol.
