Your argument would be valid if no shooting sport ever had regulations controlling minimum trigger activation force. But there are, and there have been for a very long time, and yet those sports are still here.
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PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!
- Thread starter Cjwise5
- Start date
Your argument would be valid if no shooting sport ever had regulations controlling minimum trigger activation force. But there are, and there have been for a very long time, and yet those sports are still here.
You would not believe the 100% pure bullshit excuses, right on this motherfucking forum, from PRS diehards, for not sticking a piece of plastic down their precious bore.
Amen. It's pathetic how many guys whine about putting a piece of plastic in their bore.
You would not believe the 100% pure bullshit excuses, right on this motherfucking forum, from chamber flag diehards, for how they believe a chamber flag will prevent people from handling firearms unsafely.
I think it’s more of that layered safety. Obviously the 100% perfect way is if everyone handled their firearms safely. But, that’s not reality.
Chamber flag is just another layer in the cake for when we eventually fuck up.
In the spirit of all of these BS “what if” scenarios, and honestly to keep this train wreck rolling, have we discussed demonic possession? Of either myself or my gun?
Seems about as legit as some of the other what ifs....
Intent is key, did you mean for the round to go where it went?
Own your mistakes and move on. At the end of the day we all want to go back home.
Seems about as legit as some of the other what ifs....
Intent is key, did you mean for the round to go where it went?
Own your mistakes and move on. At the end of the day we all want to go back home.
jesus the butthurt is heavy around here
Treat every weapon as if it is loaded
Never point the gun at anything you are unwilling to shoot
Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire
Keep the weapon on safe (bolt back) until you are ready to fire
If you can’t do these you should go home
There is room for a person to screw up a little bit and be corrected without a DQ, just like 3gun ro’s might yell “finger” if you are moving but not shooting with your finger in the trigger guard, but if you pop off a round by accident you go home
The what if’s don’t matter
Also, be a good dude - take an extra second or two to make the folks shooting with you feel comfortable with your weapon - use a chamber flag placed into the chamber, have your magazine out, carry the weapon in a manner where you recognize there are other people around you
If you see someone not doing these things, be a good dude and remind them
If someone reminds you to follow the rules, be a good dude and take their advice/criticism/comment like a reasonable person -aka don’t be a dick
Dudesmanship can go a long way to help prevent bad shit and reduce drama, I don’t want to need that med kit i keep in my truck when joe cool pops a 6.5 round into someone’s leg because joe didn’t want to use a chamber flag
Treat every weapon as if it is loaded
Never point the gun at anything you are unwilling to shoot
Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire
Keep the weapon on safe (bolt back) until you are ready to fire
If you can’t do these you should go home
There is room for a person to screw up a little bit and be corrected without a DQ, just like 3gun ro’s might yell “finger” if you are moving but not shooting with your finger in the trigger guard, but if you pop off a round by accident you go home
The what if’s don’t matter
Also, be a good dude - take an extra second or two to make the folks shooting with you feel comfortable with your weapon - use a chamber flag placed into the chamber, have your magazine out, carry the weapon in a manner where you recognize there are other people around you
If you see someone not doing these things, be a good dude and remind them
If someone reminds you to follow the rules, be a good dude and take their advice/criticism/comment like a reasonable person -aka don’t be a dick
Dudesmanship can go a long way to help prevent bad shit and reduce drama, I don’t want to need that med kit i keep in my truck when joe cool pops a 6.5 round into someone’s leg because joe didn’t want to use a chamber flag
Well, it depends upon the level of the possession and how bad it is. I mean, there should be different results between full on foaming at the mouth head spinning projectile puking and just a simple eyes rolling back in the head and speaking in tongues. Don’t ya think?
I would have left immediately and would never return. I'm gonna have to wait until this sport either matures or dies to get involved.
its not exactly "the sport"
its areas with weak leadership
those areas need to snap it up
that wouldnt fly at any of the range locations in our local area whether they are prs/nrl sanctioned matches or local club matches affiliated with nothing
This.
I feel safer at the SoTex area club matches than most any match I’ve been to.
The central area matches are really good, and RO is.....well, RO about safety. Outside of these areas, I haven’t felt as safe.
But, I’m sure there are pockets like this all over the country. It’s mainly about how the local community feels about safety. It’s a trickle down effect.
And of course, no one is going to point out when things are going well. For every picture of an unsafe act, there are 100 pics of good weapons handling.
But, there is still enough unsafe acts out there that we need to keep it visible and not get complacent.
Thanks for letting us know your opinion on shit you know nothing about or have any involvement in. Please let us know your opinion the price of tea in China while your at it.
This is just an FYI. Bolt blocks like this one are becoming popular. It's an alternative to chamber flags. Thoughts? Basically it's just a plastic magazine (3D printed) that keeps the bolt in the rearward position.
I like it, but need a way to keep the moon dust out of the action and bolt, when Bigfoot and Bozo the Clown are stepping over your rifle, instead of walking around it at a match because they are too lazy.
I think the chamber flags and products such as that magazine block above are decent safety tools, but are also a double-edged sword. If the four rules are adhered to, none of these products would be necessary. My concern is that some of the people that have chamber flags and mag blocks installed can have a tendency to develop a more lackadaisical attitude about the four rules, primarily, the one that revolves around not pointing the barrel at anything you don't intend to destroy. "My flag is in, it's impossible to chamber a round, I can flag everyone and it doesn't matter...gun is inoperable."
I don't want to take this conversation off topic, but I can't help myself...some of the other shit in this thread is driving me fucking bonkers.
How in the blue fuck did that shooter in the video accept the point the RO gave him when he knew goddamn well A) he ND'ed and B) he sure as fuck didn't magically hit the plate when he ND'ed? The ND is an obvious issue, but him accepting that point is simply unconscionable (as strong a word as I could come up with to convey the absolute fucking disdain we should have as a community for that kind of bullshit). The shooter accepting that point is almost as bad as those bitching about handicapped folks receiving accommodations when they cannot maneuver some courses of fire like other folks. That is fucking appalling.
I don't want to take this conversation off topic, but I can't help myself...some of the other shit in this thread is driving me fucking bonkers.
How in the blue fuck did that shooter in the video accept the point the RO gave him when he knew goddamn well A) he ND'ed and B) he sure as fuck didn't magically hit the plate when he ND'ed? The ND is an obvious issue, but him accepting that point is simply unconscionable (as strong a word as I could come up with to convey the absolute fucking disdain we should have as a community for that kind of bullshit). The shooter accepting that point is almost as bad as those bitching about handicapped folks receiving accommodations when they cannot maneuver some courses of fire like other folks. That is fucking appalling.
I they they are a very good idea.
I’m working with a 3d designer to also develop inert bolts. Basically, you remove your actual bolt, insert the plastic orange bolt that fits in your specific action. You don’t put the live bolt in until you are prepped for the stage and about to go live.
The trick will be figuring something out for the guys who cannot remove their bolt without major movement of the cheek rest.
Bolt blocks, chamber flags, fake bolts. All this is extraneous shit that is a poor attempt to compensate for not following the 5 rules of weapons safety. I have never seen any SOF person use a safety flag, and they are professional weapons handlers.
Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
Don't point your muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy.
Finger off trigger until ready to shoot.
Know target and surroundings, to include behind target.
Common sense.
I know that on a previous team of mine a ND while downrange was an automatic trip home along with paperwork. You also usually had to carry a pop gun or some other stupid shit around in a kiddie holster for a month or two when you got home. And you were known as a dumbass who is not to be trusted for AT LEAST 6 months to a year. Oh, and coming home early from a deployment also was a significant financial blow as well as it meant losing a couple grand in per diem or tax free pay.
Now if we are talking about while at home station being behind the gun and getting ready to shoot and cranking one off a little early and off target, that is still an ND but punishment was decided at a team level and was usually less severe. This was usually accompanied by some form of physical punishment (unpleasant exercises for an extended time), some form of financial pain (most often in the form of copious amounts of alcohol donated to the team fridge), and ridicule for a couple of months.
Now this was heavily dependent on the team culture of absolutely zero fucking tolerance for NDs. That does not exist in the PRS world. So how to make it occur artificially? Who knows.
I would suggest that if you ND there are several things that happen.
-You immediately get DQ'd from match.
-If you ever want to shoot in PRS again, at the next 5 matches you shoot (or one year, whichever is shorter in time) you have to wear a hunter orange shirt with the letters ND printed in huge black font on it. Your public ridicule price for being an idiot.
-You have to pay a set amount. Half gets put on the prize table as a prize and half gets put into a pot for the ROs. Make the amount at least 200 dollars.
This will create incentive for people to report when they see an ND.
@Lowlight
Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
Don't point your muzzle at anything you don't want to destroy.
Finger off trigger until ready to shoot.
Know target and surroundings, to include behind target.
Common sense.
I know that on a previous team of mine a ND while downrange was an automatic trip home along with paperwork. You also usually had to carry a pop gun or some other stupid shit around in a kiddie holster for a month or two when you got home. And you were known as a dumbass who is not to be trusted for AT LEAST 6 months to a year. Oh, and coming home early from a deployment also was a significant financial blow as well as it meant losing a couple grand in per diem or tax free pay.
Now if we are talking about while at home station being behind the gun and getting ready to shoot and cranking one off a little early and off target, that is still an ND but punishment was decided at a team level and was usually less severe. This was usually accompanied by some form of physical punishment (unpleasant exercises for an extended time), some form of financial pain (most often in the form of copious amounts of alcohol donated to the team fridge), and ridicule for a couple of months.
Now this was heavily dependent on the team culture of absolutely zero fucking tolerance for NDs. That does not exist in the PRS world. So how to make it occur artificially? Who knows.
I would suggest that if you ND there are several things that happen.
-You immediately get DQ'd from match.
-If you ever want to shoot in PRS again, at the next 5 matches you shoot (or one year, whichever is shorter in time) you have to wear a hunter orange shirt with the letters ND printed in huge black font on it. Your public ridicule price for being an idiot.
-You have to pay a set amount. Half gets put on the prize table as a prize and half gets put into a pot for the ROs. Make the amount at least 200 dollars.
This will create incentive for people to report when they see an ND.
@Lowlight
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Problem is we don’t live in a perfect world. Otherwise there would be no seatbelts, police, etc etc. Not to mention most aren’t going to be trained to this degree.
Safety comes in layers. You have hundreds of people in this game. I’ll trust chamber flags and blocks over hoping they know what they are doing.
What I am saying is that the professionals regard this skill set, namely safety, as a basic and non negotiable fundamental and prerequisite for entry into the community.
If they, the best in the world, hold that view, why don't we. Why don't we hammer the hell out of folks until the defective ones either get it in their heads through pain and beatings, or leave for good?
Creating an artificial safety system that provides a false sense of security by treating folks like mentally challenged fourth graders does a disservice to both them and us. What will these folks do when they have to safely handle their firearm in an environment where there aren't any safety flags, fake magazines, fake bolts, and tons of safety orange and yellow everywhere to tell them what to do, what condition their weapon is in, and to make them feel warm and fuzzy? We see this all the time in a different way. Go run a hot range, or alternatively, a dynamic type drill with multiple people who are not all on line. Watch how many folks lose their shit and start calling it unsafe even if it is completely safe. It is because they have been trained to rely on the false sense of security created by extraneous safety mechanisms instead of relying on the safety fundamentals which work in any and every environment.
If a person is not competent enough to safely conduct themselves through the evolution then they should not be there. In the case of new folks this is where we as a community need to take them under our wing and mentor them through their first few evolutions. This is the type of care and friendliness that will make the sport grow and thrive. This kind of high, professional safety standard will clean up the sport, make us more respected in the eyes of the greater shooting community and the public at large, and will most importantly create a vast, competent, and professional class of long range shooters that will be second to none.
Again, you’re comparing people who are trained and do this day in and day out to people who do this as a hobby on the weekend. Comparing the top 1% to the other 99%. We aren’t all created equal.
With this logic, there should be no speed limits because everyone should only drive within their own ability.
It’s not realistic and doesn’t work.
And even the best in the world fuck up. Chamber flags and other safety mechanisms are here to stay and will be even further developed.
The only way your logic works is if civilians receive the same training. Not gonna happen.
To be clear, chamber flags are not designed to be a handicap. Anyone violating safety rules should get hammered for it.
Chamber flags and other mechanisms are for the time something actually happens. It’s the last resort to keep someone from not going home.
It in no way replaces the respect people should have for a firearm.
If you haven’t already, I suggest you make a trip to Rifles Only and listen to jacob’s safety brief.
He makes a very compelling case of how he’s equally scared of a tier 1 operator vs anyone else off the street. Uses losing our car keys as an example.
If we can fuck up something as simple as our car keys being right in front of our face, we can easily fuck up with a firearm.
Not to mention, unless I directly trained day in and day out with someone, you bet your ass I’d rather them have a chamber flag in rather than *hope* their training and respect of a firearm is equal to my own.
Chamber flags and other mechanisms are for the time something actually happens. It’s the last resort to keep someone from not going home.
It in no way replaces the respect people should have for a firearm.
If you haven’t already, I suggest you make a trip to Rifles Only and listen to jacob’s safety brief.
He makes a very compelling case of how he’s equally scared of a tier 1 operator vs anyone else off the street. Uses losing our car keys as an example.
If we can fuck up something as simple as our car keys being right in front of our face, we can easily fuck up with a firearm.
Not to mention, unless I directly trained day in and day out with someone, you bet your ass I’d rather them have a chamber flag in rather than *hope* their training and respect of a firearm is equal to my own.
You're right, I feel a hell of a lot safer on the firing line of a PRS/IPSC/3-gun match than I would on the firing line during a weapons qualification course.
You seem to be implying that some PRS shooters are too stupid to even clear the lowest hurdle of handling a weapon. If so, what the hell are they doing at a match? What are we doing letting them be there? I am not saying that everyone needs to be at a pro level of training. I am not a pro compared to many if not most folks on here. I AM saying that the basic price of entry to the sport is safety. It is not a seat belt or speed limit like you have incorrectly made an analogy of. It is more like a driver’s license/test. You want to drive? Pass the test and have the license. Want to shoot at the match? Act safely or catch hell.
I have been down to Jacob’s place in a professional student capacity and never saw a chamber flag. Just bolt open / mag out.
Anyone can screw up. Jacob admits it and anyone else in the community who is honest will freely admit it. (For all Jacob’s comments about how easy it is to screw up and how stupid our brains are sometimes, he is a fucking genius. I don’t know his IQ but it is without doubt really up there) What I am saying is that instead of making everyone get a fake bolt or chamber flag and thereby adding a little more cost and complexity to the price of entry into the sport, lets stop trying to re invent/buy/regulate our way to safety. It is putting a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound of stupidity and negligence.
Basic fundamental safety rules work great when they are not just a set of rules but a culture. Create a culture that will pound the hell out of unsafe behavior. That is more safe than any chamber flag will ever be.
If we cannot create that type of culture, why would we want to be a part of something that screwed up anyway?
I have been down to Jacob’s place in a professional student capacity and never saw a chamber flag. Just bolt open / mag out.
Anyone can screw up. Jacob admits it and anyone else in the community who is honest will freely admit it. (For all Jacob’s comments about how easy it is to screw up and how stupid our brains are sometimes, he is a fucking genius. I don’t know his IQ but it is without doubt really up there) What I am saying is that instead of making everyone get a fake bolt or chamber flag and thereby adding a little more cost and complexity to the price of entry into the sport, lets stop trying to re invent/buy/regulate our way to safety. It is putting a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound of stupidity and negligence.
Basic fundamental safety rules work great when they are not just a set of rules but a culture. Create a culture that will pound the hell out of unsafe behavior. That is more safe than any chamber flag will ever be.
If we cannot create that type of culture, why would we want to be a part of something that screwed up anyway?
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You will never get the amount of control over hobbyist crowd you will over professionals.
If we could, we would have already.
Apples to oranges.
I fully agree that if a prs shooter can’t follow basic safety rules, they shouldn’t be there.
Here’s the kicker though, how do you know if they can or can’t?
Short answer, you don’t, until they fuck up. There isn’t and will never be a super sophisticated training program involved. At best, you will get a couple hours or a couple days of training. Which isn’t enough to know whether someone is a fuck up or not. There’s zero chance of implementing a mandatory training regiment that is long enough to show whether or not someone has good safety habits.
Professionals or even extremely serious hobbyists will have much more training and respect for weapons. We don’t need to worry about these. Chamber flags aren’t for them.
Chamber flags are for the guys who are fuck ups and we don’t know it yet. The cost of doing business this way is even the responsible people have to stick a piece of plastic in their chamber.
Couple weeks ago, I merely suggested we should incorporate fully running/operating the bolt 3 times before getting off the line. People got so pissy about it, I deleted the thread. That’s the kind of crowd we have to deal with.
Here’s the kicker though, how do you know if they can or can’t?
Short answer, you don’t, until they fuck up. There isn’t and will never be a super sophisticated training program involved. At best, you will get a couple hours or a couple days of training. Which isn’t enough to know whether someone is a fuck up or not. There’s zero chance of implementing a mandatory training regiment that is long enough to show whether or not someone has good safety habits.
Professionals or even extremely serious hobbyists will have much more training and respect for weapons. We don’t need to worry about these. Chamber flags aren’t for them.
Chamber flags are for the guys who are fuck ups and we don’t know it yet. The cost of doing business this way is even the responsible people have to stick a piece of plastic in their chamber.
Couple weeks ago, I merely suggested we should incorporate fully running/operating the bolt 3 times before getting off the line. People got so pissy about it, I deleted the thread. That’s the kind of crowd we have to deal with.
I've shot 27 two day matches now. I have seen very very few NDs... I have never once been in a situation where i felt unsafe at a match. Quit spreading this around like there are dangerous shooters running around doing stupid stuff
So you have seen ND's happen? First one is to many. second, what was done to correct the situation? What happened to the shooters who had the ND?
When my boy started shooting uspsa and IDPA (at 9) I made home watch everyone on the squad and adjacent squads and had him tell me who we had to watch out for. He knew when shooter x was on the clock that he had to pay attention just in case.
DTHOMAS, I like the idea of running the bolt multiple times. most do it in action pistol shooting. Why? to make sure the chamber is empty
You run the bolt three times, then perform the three point check. Ignore the inexperienced “look cool” comments.
I’ve never run a pistol or a carbine comp, but I have been mil/le for ~20yrs. Apparently we just want to look cool when no one is watching.
Most folks do both the 3 point and racking a few times because that mix of 2 methods gives a extra measure of surety that you haven’t screwed one of the methods up. I personally use both. Especially with something like a Glock.
Let’s say that you get halfway through your 3 point inspection and get distracted. To disassemble a Glock you have to dry fire it. I make sure to run the slide a few times no matter what so that if I for some reason screwed something up clearing the pistol I will at least see the rounds falling out when I rack it.
Ultimately, personal preference wins out. As long as it works every time right?
Let’s say that you get halfway through your 3 point inspection and get distracted. To disassemble a Glock you have to dry fire it. I make sure to run the slide a few times no matter what so that if I for some reason screwed something up clearing the pistol I will at least see the rounds falling out when I rack it.
Ultimately, personal preference wins out. As long as it works every time right?
I'm interested in learning, and I'm sure there are plenty of other lurkers interested in hearing what you have to say.
As long as you visually, and physically check the chamber and Mag well, you can cycle the bolt as many times as you want.
You can cycle it 40x or 0 times if you like, but you had better visually and physically check the chamber and Mag well every time or you’re wrong...
If you visually and physically check those areas and find no rounds, I fail to see the need to continually cycle the bolt.
If you visually and physically check the chamber and find a round, then cycle the bolt, if that fails to extract the round, I see no reason to further cycle the bolt. Pursue another course of action to remove it.
Once the round is removed from the chamber , visually and physically check the chamber and Mag well, if no rounds are present, I see no further reason to cycle the bolt......
You can cycle it 40x or 0 times if you like, but you had better visually and physically check the chamber and Mag well every time or you’re wrong...
If you visually and physically check those areas and find no rounds, I fail to see the need to continually cycle the bolt.
If you visually and physically check the chamber and find a round, then cycle the bolt, if that fails to extract the round, I see no reason to further cycle the bolt. Pursue another course of action to remove it.
Once the round is removed from the chamber , visually and physically check the chamber and Mag well, if no rounds are present, I see no further reason to cycle the bolt......
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Last post I will make in the thread as it’s getting boring at this point.
Have you ever put something down on a table, then couldn’t find it, even though it was right where you looked 5 times?
Safety works in layers. And humans get complacent. Happens to all of us. If you just cycled the slide/bolt and didn’t do a visual/physical inspection, you can miss an non extracted round.
If you don’t cycle, but get complacent in the inspection cause you’re used to never seeing a round (keys right in front of your face), you might miss something as well.
Safety in layers, checks and balances, yada yada yada.
I’ve decided when I RO a stage, this will be the routine I run everyone through:
Shooter finishes or times out
Bolt back
Drop mag
Run bolt fully at least once
Visual and physical inspection of the chamber and magwell
Run turret back to zero stop and onto zero
Shooter may step off line with rifle pointing down.
The turret zero is also a safety concern so shooter doesn’t forget he/she has 7-11 mild dialed in and then goes to a stage where that might send a round somewhere unsafe.
Call it overkill, call it flashy, call it for looks, I don’t care.
Have you ever put something down on a table, then couldn’t find it, even though it was right where you looked 5 times?
Safety works in layers. And humans get complacent. Happens to all of us. If you just cycled the slide/bolt and didn’t do a visual/physical inspection, you can miss an non extracted round.
If you don’t cycle, but get complacent in the inspection cause you’re used to never seeing a round (keys right in front of your face), you might miss something as well.
Safety in layers, checks and balances, yada yada yada.
I’ve decided when I RO a stage, this will be the routine I run everyone through:
Shooter finishes or times out
Bolt back
Drop mag
Run bolt fully at least once
Visual and physical inspection of the chamber and magwell
Run turret back to zero stop and onto zero
Shooter may step off line with rifle pointing down.
The turret zero is also a safety concern so shooter doesn’t forget he/she has 7-11 mild dialed in and then goes to a stage where that might send a round somewhere unsafe.
Call it overkill, call it flashy, call it for looks, I don’t care.
Come on brotha. This thread got boring like 3 weeks ago! ??
The last time I was covered with a live weapon was at a range where the county SWAT team was practicing. They wanted to run some movement drills, so I cleared off the range, and stepped behind the safety line. The deputy fired his first string, and while moving with his loaded AR15 to the second position, he muzzle swept me and a half dozen other deputies...right through our mid sections...not even toward the ground. I reported the incident to the range officer who gave me sort of a "HMmmph", but did nothing.
If I were king, I would have asked them to cease the movement drills until they could get their muzzle control worked out. I think many professionals think "I am a professional and don't make mistakes" but that simply isn't true. Evidence the DEA agent who shot himself in the class room.
Being "professional" doesn't mean all that much as they come from the same population as the rest of us..they are simply human and therefore prone to making mistakes.
