PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[davsco]

this is the current rule re dropped rifles. personally i think if you drop your rifle during a course of fire that should be a match dq (like uspsa, idpa, etc) irrespective of where the dropped rifle points.

1.4.5 Any shooter that fails to maintain positive control of a firearm during a stage (loaded or unloaded) will receive a match DQ if the firearm breaks the 120 degree rule. If the failure of positive control does not result in a violation of the 120 degree rule, the first offense will result in a stage DQ and the second offense in match DQ.

1.3.5 Shooters must maintain positive control of a firearm during a stage (loaded or unloaded). Positive control is defined as maintaining at least one point of bodily contact with the rifle or a sling type attachment to the body of the shooter.

 

[Dthomas3523]

this is the current rule re dropped rifles. personally i think if you drop your rifle during a course of fire that should be a match dq (like uspsa, idpa, etc) irrespective of where the dropped rifle points.

1.4.5 Any shooter that fails to maintain positive control of a firearm during a stage (loaded or unloaded) will receive a match DQ if the firearm breaks the 120 degree rule. If the failure of positive control does not result in a violation of the 120 degree rule, the first offense will result in a stage DQ and the second offense in match DQ.

1.3.5 Shooters must maintain positive control of a firearm during a stage (loaded or unloaded). Positive control is defined as maintaining at least one point of bodily contact with the rifle or a sling type attachment to the body of the shooter.

I don’t mind the current wording. Except that some stages you do leave your rifle by design. But I don’t think anyone is gonna get technical with it.

 

[Alpine 338]

One fix I havnt seen mentioned, that I would love to see implemented, is you are not allowed to shoot in any sanctioned series unless you RO at least 1 match. Would love to see how many of the shooters at the either Finale actually RO'd a match last year. I would guess less than 10% and of those they were MD's.

I agree 100% here. Also, like CD matches, offer a free entry to another match if you RO.

 

[Alpine 338]

Since this has evolved beyond just ND's, and into safety as a whole...

We can all agree that Flagging, Muzzling, Sweeping, or what ever term you choose to use is unsafe, then please explain to me why is it Ok to do so when your weapon is in a case (soft or hard case). Do we assume (I don't) the weapon is unloaded and/or safe when it's pointed at someone while in a case, or do we think that 0.05" of Plastic, or a couple layers of 1000d Cordura somehow can magically capture the bullet, if the weapon is discharged?

I believe this is a safety fundamental that has failed everywhere, whether it's USPSA, NRL, PRS, or at your local range.

Many ranges, or matches will not allow you to take an uncased weapon to the firing line. You have to transport it cased, sweeping many people while in transit because you're carrying it like a suitcase.

Let that sink in.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Since this has evolved beyond just ND's, and into safety as a whole...

We can all agree that Flagging, Muzzling, Sweeping, or what ever term you choose to use is unsafe, then please explain to me why is it Ok to do so when your weapon is in a case (soft or hard case). Do we assume (I don't) the weapon is unloaded and/or safe when it's pointed at someone while in a case, or do we think that 0.05" of Plastic, or a couple layers of 1000d Cordura somehow can magically capture the bullet, if the weapon is discharged?

I believe this is a safety fundamental that has failed everywhere, whether it's USPSA, NRL, PRS, or at your local range.

Many ranges, or matches will not allow you to take an uncased weapon to the firing line. You have to transport it cased, sweeping many people while in transit because you're carrying it like a suitcase.

Let that sink in.

I rarely (if ever, don’t think I have) see anyone carrying their rifle around the range in a case.

That may not be the norm everywhere. But from Houston south, I can’t say I’ve seen it.

What I do see is the butt/stock on shoulder and hand on barrel type carry. This isn’t much different than suitcase carry. Damn near impossible not to flag someone at some point.

 

[LawnMM]

I assume with the bolt removed and the rifle encased in foam that the chances of a misfire inside the case are zero.

 

[Upstate43]

I think this event demonstrates why there will always be a divide between the training for competitive shooting and training for combat.

Obviously there is quite a bit of overlap in the fundamental skill sets. But the core focus of competitive shooting is scoring and winning. The core focus of combat is killing the enemy and staying alive. We've seen it happen with some of the pistol shooting leagues which historically started up as "practical" shooting competitions but gradually evolved into their own sort of games...and now we're seeing it with PRS both in terms of the gear used and the mindsets held by the competitors.

Any sort of competitive shooting should of course emphasize weapons safety and an understanding of SDZ's and range layout, but the individual shooters will always be more focused on the competition aspect at the expense of safety. Maybe more rigorous rules and enforcement can change that, but that's the trend I've observed up until this point.

 

[Lowlight]

I spoke to Laura the RO in all this a bit last night and her side of the situation lead me to walk away from the conversation a couple of ways,

1. There were several competitors within close proximity and not one said anything when it happened. Including a couple who were on glass of their own.

a. Was this because of the proclamation from the MD that an ND was okay within X feet ?
b. Was it because today the Competitors view the match director as their competition and are actually shooting against the RO and MD vs the other competitors.
c. Seeing and not saying has appeared as a common theme in a couple of incidents now, that is a culture failure.

2. The ROs don’t want to be part of this anymore.

a. they feel it’s a thankless job with little upside -zero reward.
b. They are getting blamed for not seeing stuff even though their job is to spot and score.
c. They don’t want to do it like this anymore, it’s turning off the new range officers, Laura had a brand new RO running the tablet and she doesn’t want to be put in this position again. So you’re losing volunteers.

It’s gonna require a top down approach to fix, one that is multi-pronged

Training, both shooter and RO
Reinforcement, from the top in regards to rules.
Rewritten - the rules need to be correctly rewritten to spell it out.

She made a great point about being a rev off on a stage. We don’t see it as much as we used to, but it happens. Launching rounds high at confined range can be an issue if the SDZs are not clear.

The bigger you get the more you have tighten things down, and clearly the rules from a 50 person event is no longer working for a 150 person one. In other words they failed to scale up correctly and account for the growth of the series, you no longer have the highest level competitors so you have to adjust.

They were supposed to have lessons out there to demonstrate the proper way to attend an event as either a competitor or range officer.

It’s layer, the layers have to be better defined and the guidelines need to be updated to educate all equally

 

[Dthomas3523]

An interesting concept I was thinking of.

Sprinkle in more kyl type stages. Or run a few matches here and there that are 100% kyl.

Multiple targets on most stages. Miss, and zero.

This could help subconsciously train shooters to only take shots they are pretty damn sure they can make. Obviously an ND is an ND.

But, I think part of the culture is becoming a bit lackadaisical. You know you have say 90s for 12 rnds. But there is zero penalty for slinging rounds once time is almost out.

Maybe also make it not allowed to call out time left. Timer starts and that’s it. No telling them at certain points and no answering if they ask.

Knowing you have to properly manage your own time and that you will lose points for shots you take in not so sure position or target size will nudge people into more accountability for their rounds in general.

Maybe 2 target sizes on a stage. 1pt for the big one and 2pts for small.

But you lose the exact same points when you miss.

Right now, 99% of shots are rewarded only. Not taxed.

You either get that point or you don’t.

Let’s step up the risk. Miss and you don’t just get a net zero, you go in the hole.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Torch off a round that you know was an ND but no one else does, at least you’re getting taxed a point or two.

Make a miss deduct more than a hit.

Safety should be the reason people act safely.

But facts are facts. People are driven by points and winning. We are human.

Let’s use that and tax the shit out ourselves.

Use that 2 oz trigger. Better not torch off and miss.

Clock is running out. Start slinging those shots.

Forget to zero that turret.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I’m just spitballing these as I’m thinking, sorry for so many posts.

A lot of clubs have a skill classification siystem. A B C (or whatever they call it) skill level. Once you place into the next highest skill category in three matches, you move up.

So, let’s make the par times less for A shooters and more for C shooters.

When an A shooter misses, they lose 3/4 of a point, B is 1/2, and C is 1/4 point.

This allows at least a net gain for for a hit/miss combo.

A shooter hits and then misses and they have a net gain of 1/4 point.

B shooter is 1/2 point

C shooter is 3/4 point gain.

In a hunting scenario, if you miss, decent chance of scaring off game without putting meat on ground. In mil/le, lives are on line.

Point being, in real life, there’s a penalty for missing. Let’s roll that into the game.

Penalize the points standard in a 2 day match. 1 point for a hit and lose 1.25 points for a miss. Unless they want to use the skill level tiers in a 2 day.

And if this makes less people shoot 2day matches, so be it. 2 day matches are the big leagues. Use the club matches to cut your teeth first. Myself included.

 

[Alpine 338]

Maybe also make it not allowed to call out time left. Timer starts and that’s it. No telling them at certain points and no answering if they ask.

I was thinking along the same lines for the time, except call "time" after the first shot after actually timing out. And only count points that were impacts during the time limit.

 

[Cm308]

The governing bodies of both the PRS and the NRL need to step up and clean their own mess.
I've noticed how lax gun safety is at matches and it really blows my mind how careless the competitors and the organization are about gun safety. It's only a matter of time before that bites someone in the ass.
My own anecdotal ND, I was shooting a stage where after moving from the first firing position to the second I set up, found the target, closed my bolt and the rifle fired. Scared the hell out of me, I don't think I touched the trigger at all but maybe I did, my trigger weight is set at 3.5 pounds more than most ppl I believe, so I really don't know what went wrong. Here is where it gets tricky though, I opened my bolt said out loud " that's it DQ" no response from RO,. I then said " um yea I don't know what happened but I had an accidental discharge that's a DQ right?" Range officer then says " nah that's ok I won't DQ you, you were pointing down range so it's ok" , I was like well ok and reluctantly and slowly finished the stage. So yea there is a problem in the program that needs attention especially when a competitor can't even DQ themselves after screwing up

 

[kthomas]

As someone who's shot numerous national 2 day, and 1 day club level PRS matches, I agree that there is an overall relaxed culture on safety. I've been muzzle swept numerous times, I've seen ND's, I see people "sky loading" or closing the bolt before their crosshairs are anywhere near the target - etc.

As much as I like to think that shooters will have the integrity of stage DQ'ing themselves for an ND, I know in most cases it won't happen. Especially amongst the "jersey" shooters - too much on the line in their minds to give themselves a DQ, they're already looking for any way possible to twist the rules to give them an advantage (seen this as a shooter and as an RO).

I like the idea of an RSO per stage, not behind glass or scoring, in charge of monitoring for safety violations. Unfortunately this is a pipe dream, since we can't hardly attract RO's for that thankless job, but it would be nice for matches to aim for at least 5 RSO's that are roaming around the stages, observing for safety infractions and holding people accountable and keeping a running tally of safety infractions.

This sport needs a step change in how it thinks about safety, and it's going to require a lot more than just hoping that the shooters self-police themselves. We also need to make it more rewarding for the RO's/RSO's, but with the current entitlement of the top shooters, I'm not sure if it's going to be possible - heaven forbid we thank the R(S)O's for their efforts and time with some prize table swag.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Meh, RO’s are much more important than shooters.

We’ll keep showing up to shoot regardless. RO’s won’t keep showing up.

Let’s find out who’s really at these matches to be the best.

If you’re shooting matches for prizes or profit, you picked the wrong hobby.

Give the RO’s first walks at table. Fuck the shooters who complain about it.

 

[kthomas]

Meh, RO’s are much more important than shooters.

We’ll keep showing up to shoot regardless. RO’s won’t keep showing up.

Let’s find out who’s really at these matches to be the best.

If you’re shooting matches for prizes or profit, you picked the wrong hobby.

Give the RO’s first walks at table. Fuck the shooters who complain about it.

100% agree.

1st off, there is no such thing as a "professional" PRS shooter, as not a single one of them is shooting PRS as a professions. They are plumbers, doctors and Walmart greeters that just happen to be pretty good at a hobby that a very small % of the population participates in. If you want to make money in a sport, go participate and become the best in a sport that has spectators - basketball, baseball, football, golf, etc. and GTFO out of this hobby.

I almost think that the prize tables should almost exist for just the RO's. I couldn't care less if I ever get another prize from this sport again - I usually leave before they open up the prize tables anyway.

We need to incentivize people to participate as RO's and RSO's, otherwise this hobby as it currently stands is unsustainable. And currently we are doing a very piss poor job of it - the sport really takes the RO's for granted.

 

[Cascade Precision]

Short term solution from a small club:

We have a semi active club that has a dozen and a half disciplines. Not everyone shoots everything. What we do have is a large USPSA contingent. I've approached a couple guys and asked them if they'd be interested in RO'ing in a match. No running, no heat stroke. Just watching the shooter. I have had a few positive responses as they aren't interested in long range (it can't see that far well enough to shoot).

Borrow from another sport for RO's. Make it worth their while. Most of my guys just want everyone safe and going home with exactly the same number of holes they showed up with.

Sorry if this has been addressed, I haven't had time to read 500+ posts.

 

[regnar375]

Another possible solution that I have seen used in other shooting disciplines as well (sporting Clay's, f class and in idpa).

Use orginazations that have kids that shoot. Boy scout adventure group, sea cadets, civial air patrol. We even used regular boy scouts as pullers and scorers at sporting events.

 

[z7.jled]

You have to get the shooters involved with scoring and safety/rso duties. For large 2 day matches maybe you can find enough volunteers if you sweeten the pot and pay them, but for club matches and smaller matches in general it should be the shooters running the show

If the shooters can’t be trusted to do it fairly then the incentives to cheat are too high and the culture is corrupt and weak with no integrity and we don’t deserve to play this game.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Potential problem with using children or such goes back to the "Change Needs To Come From TOP" part of these conversations.

Can you really see a "Jersey" shooter taking a Match DQ because of 14 year kid called them on a ND?
Drama would be more than any day time talk show could ever hope for.

Shit.....Shooter in video that started this thread knew dam well he had a ND but not only did he not call himself out...he took the extra point. You expect him to take a Match DQ from a child calling him out...... LOLOLOL

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[TheGerman]

But...but...PRS is shooting under stress....and maybe even a little exercise....just like combat!

I mean, you get to wear a uniform and everything.

 

[DaveM]

The problem is the money. The high dollar awards and prize table bring out the worst in people. There should be no reason to cheat in the first place. Match directors should be able to count on the competitors to police themselves as RO’s, spotters, and scorers. It’s how our local matches are held, and it works just fine.

Winners should get no more than trophies, and any “prize table” stuff should go random draw.

I’ve entered and shot in hundreds of Highpower matches over the years and have NEVER actually witnessed cheating. I’ve only heard one or two stories of shooters caught at it. There are virtually no awards of monetary value in Highpower, even at the National Championship level.

I’ve entered and shot exactly ONE PRS series match, and I witnessed blatant cheating.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The problem is the money. The high dollar awards and prize table bring out the worst in people. There should be no reason to cheat in the first place. Match directors should be able to count on the competitors to police themselves as RO’s, spotters, and scorers. It’s how our local matches are held, and it works just fine.

Winners should get no more than trophies, and any “prize table” stuff should go random draw.

I’ve entered and shot in hundreds of Highpower matches over the years and have NEVER actually witnessed cheating. I’ve only heard one or two stories of shooters caught at it. There are virtually no awards of monetary value in Highpower, even at the National Championship level.

I’ve entered and shot exactly ONE PRS series match, and I witnessed blatant cheating.

Unfortunately, the prize table just exacerbated the situation.

People will cheat to win, regardless of what they get. Unfortunately it’s our version of “prey drive.”

We don’t have to go out and hunt down food or anything like that. So “winning” is what satisfies our instinctual predatory drive.

But I agree, no prize table or ROs getting the first walk would definitely cut a lot of it down a bit.

 

[Diver160651]

I do not think it is the price (Freudian slip) table.. I think that because we are running so close that one point can drop you several spots. I was scored 1 point down by an honest mistake, nocked me down 3 spots..

The top third at these matches are all soo close.. people get to wrapped up in were they end up.. not just about the prize.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I do not think it is the price (Freudian slip) table.. I think that because we are running so close that one point can drop you several spots. I was scored 1 point down by an honest mistake, nocked me down 3 spots..

The top third at these matches are all soo close.. people get to wrapped up in were they end up.. not just about the prize.

Agreed. Gonna be hard to change this. Would be interested in hearing any ideas how to alleviate a single point being worth enough to damn near fight over.

Even with my suggestion of losing a point of a fraction of a point for misses may not solve this.

 

[_Raining]

@Lowlight , we need a Snipers Hide Series. If the PRS and NRL are not going to change then make a series that is more practical and safety oriented. I think you have a big enough influence where it would be a legit competitor to PRS and NRL but maybe i am just a dreamer. You are probably the only one in this thread who will come closest to making a change.

 

[Diver160651]

@Lowlight , we need a Snipers Hide Series. If the PRS and NRL are not going to change then make a series that is more practical and safety oriented. I think you have a big enough influence where it would be a legit competitor to PRS and NRL but maybe i am just a dreamer. You are probably the only one in this thread who will come closest to making a change.

My money is on, No way can there be another series start and be finically solvent.. The matrix just does not make sense.

Awareness by the ranges, match directors, clubs and unfortunately, insurance demands will drive this to a safer place.. The question is when.

What the Hide can do, if we don't get to self-righteous is bring awareness to our MDs and Series managers.

There really is a good thing going.. needs a bit of tuning.. but bitching in here isn't going to solve it.

Go sign up pay your $$ and shoot the matches, give your feedback, if you see something say it, nobody is going to punch you in the chops...

 

[davsco]

I’ve entered and shot exactly ONE PRS series match, and I witnessed blatant cheating.

would be interested to hear what the cheating was (changing scores, calling buddy's hits that were misses, etc).

 

[LawnMM]

I said long ago when we discussed a cheating incident that you could remove the incentive to cheat by doing a random draw on prize table items.

It's assigned before you even arrive what you're getting at the end.

Doesn't remove the stupid large check incentive though.

 

[_Raining]

Magneetospeed T1000, the official honesty and integrity sponsor of the PRS.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Magneetospeed T1000, the official honesty and integrity sponsor of the PRS.

Edge hit, flasher not working.

 

[_Raining]

Edge hit, flasher not working.

Just come play with us in F Class where we bicker about electronic target accuracy.

 

[aslrookie]

I attended a local club match last month and witnessed someone ND real bad. He was setting up his rifle on the barrel, closed the bolt while standing up, and then squeezed off a round before even shouldering the rifle. I saw the dirt kick up about 30 yards away and to the right.

Fortunately that spot wasn’t flat, but I know that round skipped and went somewhere. He was not DQ’d. I compete in USPSA, and they are very good about safety rules. My wife was DQ’d for a misunderstanding before the stage even started. It was frustrating to be out $20 when she didn’t even get to shoot, but I will take that standard all day long vs unsafe practices.

I think PRS style matches just don’t fit the same mold as USPSA in format. You need more space and attention. Having 50 shooters squeezed into 5 stages on a single 600 yard range is just bad to begin with.

Hell I went to a local match at a different place and the MD said anyone who flags someone even with an empty gun is going home. That same MD stuck his muzzle in someone’s face before the morning was over.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I typically feel more safe at our club matches than larger matches. And there are still 60-80 people at club matches.

Guess it’s because it’s a small community and everyone knows what’s going on. Larger matches seem to be a ton of first or close to first time shooters.

 

[Timberline Shooter]

I rarely (if ever, don’t think I have) see anyone carrying their rifle around the range in a case.

That may not be the norm everywhere. But from Houston south, I can’t say I’ve seen it.

What I do see is the butt/stock on shoulder and hand on barrel type carry. This isn’t much different than suitcase carry. Damn near impossible not to flag someone at some point.

I have not yet been able to shoot a match, and I'm curious at these matches how the best way to pack your rifle is. How do most people carry rifles at matches? What is the best way to carry a rifle at a match?

 

[aslrookie]

The dynamic of these matches is just so much different. It’s not like other competitions where the shooters are in bays and everyone else is behind the shooter.

Mistakes happen, but when you’re shooting high powered rifles at targets in open terrain, the safety margin is not there. Some of these ranges don’t even have a backstop behind the targets. I enjoy competing and long range, but every other shooting sport has safety as a priority whereas in this sport it’s just for convenience.

I am sure some matches are way better than others. I’ve never been to an actual PRS match, so I can’t speak to those. I will say my problems have been with local matches, new shooters, and a lack of accountability.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I have not yet been able to shoot a match, and I'm curious at these matches how the best way to pack your rifle is. How do most people carry rifles at matches? What is the best way to carry a rifle at a match?

Slung in front of you with muzzle pointing at ground with ECI in.

All gear in backpack so if you fall you can catch yourself

 

[Diver160651]

Slung in front of you with muzzle pointing at ground with ECI in.

All gear in backpack so if you fall you can catch yourself

David you are full of crap -- this is how you do it That way you ready as soon as the bipod touches down... Look Ma.. lots of time

Honestly though, here is part of the issue- people train shit in, because they just don't know... the other half at the top have no excuse.. (BTW there is a lot of shit going on in this video, but I am not bashing the two guys, they obviously don’t know better.)

Either way, we are all arguing the same point. More awareness and the willingness to step up and say something when you see it.

At the end of the day it is OUR issue ~ not the series.. That video was not even official PRS, NRL or the 25 other great known matches.

 

[kabarNC]

I always thought a negligent discharge is what happened when you're 10 seconds into ending abstinence..

Seriously tho, i agree with everything constructive on here so far, not alot to add. I agree that its personal responsibility- MDs, cut out the ridiculous, janky props that normal people would avoid, shooter responsibility- nothing to add that hasn't been said, but humility is the better part of valor, and get your gear bomb proof.

Ive had an ND (at a match) , a slam fire downrange, and it scared the daylights outta me. I called it, packed up, and had a blizzard, but what really rankled is finding out there was 3 other known NDs that were allowed to keep shooting. Lesson learned, i cant get upset if my gear is not on point. Its my fault.

 

[Masked]

Either way, we are all arguing the same point. More awareness and the willingness to step up and say something when you see it.

At the end of the day it is OUR issue ~ not the series.. That video was not even official PRS, NRL or the 25 other great known matches.

I see your point but, it actually IS the series's issue.

I did a RO class the other night - Trained @10 RO's for a local range and this very thread/issue came up.

SOP is established long before the match even begins. Safety and SOP are set in stone. SOP SOP SOP. It's the series that is failing to follow their own rules, they're failing to follow protocol that's already established. Lack of enforcement and protocol IS a problem of the series, not just us.

Frank made an excellent point the other day - Layers. If there's no enforcement when someone fucks up, why should anyone follow the rules? The fact that someone won a match after having a ND says all you need to know.

Were I running the series - I'd throw away any trigger under 1.5lbs. Make time secondary to shot placement. Set up cameras on every target (I'm sure a couple of them would jump to have their product represented in PRS). Give RO's incentive to actually be there.

You guys shit on RO's constantly, you really do. The RO calls you out for being unsafe and/or a dumbass and EVERYONE dumps on them. This thread is a perfect example. There weren't enough RO's to Score/Spot AND watch the shooter so, she gets shit on because none of you have the balls to police your own? Do you really think that RO wants to do any match again?

At the end of the day, while there are many layers to the problem - If you're not going to follow SOP as a MD or even a shooter, what's the point? What's the point of a safety briefing? What's the point of having RO's? - A solution has to start somewhere and actually enforcing the rules, would be a good start.

 

[Olen_4504]

David you are full of crap -- this is how you do it That way you ready as soon as the bipod touches down... Look Ma.. lots of time

Honestly though, here is part of the issue- people train shit in, because they just don't know... the other half at the top have no excuse.. (BTW there is a lot of shit going on in this video, but I am not bashing the two guys, they obviously don’t know better.)

Either way, we are all arguing the same point. More awareness and the willingness to step up and say something when you see it.

At the end of the day it is OUR issue ~ not the series.. That video was not even official PRS, NRL or the 25 other great known matches.

so is someone going to comment on that video and tell them they better not show up to a match running their gun like that?


cuz i will.

who is it? this video was just posted yesterday

 

[Alpine 338]

I have not yet been able to shoot a match, and I'm curious at these matches how the best way to pack your rifle is. How do most people carry rifles at matches? What is the best way to carry a rifle at a match?

Most matches that I've been to people carry their rifles muzzle up, either in hand if it's a short distance to the next stage, or slung across their chest if having to hike a distance.

I seldom see people carry muzzle down, especially slung with a precision rifle. I know the muzzle down or muzzle up can be a significant argument in itself, at least it was between the Army and Air Force during Desert Storm during combined operations.

Most of the sweeping issues I've seen are when shooters grab their rifles by the scope, and/or carry it Suitcase style. And the biggest offenders are when you ground your rifle next to the stage, pointing downrange, and some Bozo walks up after you and puts their rifle down behind you facing downrange at you. Or they ground it facing 180-deg of downrange, or towards the Shooters on another stage.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Most matches that I've been to people carry their rifles muzzle up, either in hand if it's a short distance to the next stage, or slung across their chest if having to hike a distance.

I seldom see people carry muzzle down, especially slung with a precision rifle. I know the muzzle down or muzzle up can be a significant argument in itself, at least it was between the Army and Air Force during Desert Storm during combined operations.

Most of the sweeping issues I've seen are when shooters grab their rifles by the scope, and/or carry it Suitcase style. And the biggest offenders are when you ground your rifle next to the stage, pointing downrange, and some Bozo walks up after you and puts their rifle down behind you facing downrange at you. Or they ground it facing 180-deg of downrange, or towards the Shooters on another stage.

Issue I see with muzzle up and over shoulder is when walking up hill or other instances when angle lets you inadvertently flag someone.

Same think I’d muzzle down behind back. You’re uphill and they are downhill behind you. You don’t even know you’re flagging.

Muzzle down and in front let’s it be pointing into ground at all times except going down hill or weird angles. Then it’s in front of you and you can direct the muzzle safely.

We are getting into minor details at this point though.

 

[Diver160651]

I see your point but, it actually IS the series's issue.

I did a RO class the other night - Trained @10 RO's for a local range and this very thread/issue came up.

SOP is established long before the match even begins. Safety and SOP are set in stone. SOP SOP SOP. It's the series that is failing to follow their own rules, they're failing to follow protocol that's already established. Lack of enforcement and protocol IS a problem of the series, not just us.

Frank made an excellent point the other day - Layers. If there's no enforcement when someone fucks up, why should anyone follow the rules? The fact that someone won a match after having a ND says all you need to know.

Were I running the series - I'd throw away any trigger under 1.5lbs. Make time secondary to shot placement. Set up cameras on every target (I'm sure a couple of them would jump to have their product represented in PRS). Give RO's incentive to actually be there.

You guys shit on RO's constantly, you really do. The RO calls you out for being unsafe and/or a dumbass and EVERYONE dumps on them. This thread is a perfect example. There weren't enough RO's to Score/Spot AND watch the shooter so, she gets shit on because none of you have the balls to police your own? Do you really think that RO wants to do any match again?

At the end of the day, while there are many layers to the problem - If you're not going to follow SOP as a MD or even a shooter, what's the point? What's the point of a safety briefing? What's the point of having RO's? - A solution has to start somewhere and actually enforcing the rules, would be a good start.

You talked in circles —

Yes at the end of the day it is shooters.. guess what, PRS, NRL, Club Matches or Big events the NDs are happening.. and the shooters, yes us, we are allowing it..

Sorry I am taking accountability for my actions, for what I see and until we all do, the rest is just Rhetoric that looks good in print.

 

[Masked]

You talked in circles —

Yes at the end of the day it is shooters.. guess what, PRS, NRL, Club Matches or Big events the NDs are happening.. and the shooters, yes us, we are allowing it..

Sorry I am taking accountability for my actions, for what I see and until we all do, the rest is just Rhetoric that looks good in print.

Actually, if you read what I actually said, the PRS Series’ itself is at fault for not enforcing SOP.

It’s the shooters fault for lack of accountability and toxicity towards the RO’s and then I finished, circling back to my original point, if PRS isn’t willing to follow its own rules SOP, then what’s the point of having any, period?

 

[DaveM]

would be interested to hear what the cheating was (changing scores, calling buddy's hits that were misses, etc).

Shooters were on spotting scopes when they were told specifically to stay off glass until they had shot the stage. It was reported to the MD and ignored.

 

[kthomas]

Shooters were on spotting scopes when they were told specifically to stay off glass until they had shot the stage. It was reported to the MD and ignored.

Some shooters, particularly some of the "jersey shooters" will bend and break every rule that you let them.

Just my first hand experience has a shooter and an RO. The lack of integrity in the sport is pretty annoying and rampant.

 

[LRdasher]

Slung in front of you with muzzle pointing at ground with ECI in.

All gear in backpack so if you fall you can catch yourself

How NOT to carry your rifle:

 

[ThePretzel]

I have not yet been able to shoot a match, and I'm curious at these matches how the best way to pack your rifle is. How do most people carry rifles at matches? What is the best way to carry a rifle at a match?

Muzzle up is usually the preferred method, just because carrying a 25 pound rifle muzzle down without a sling is very unwieldy.

I carry my rifle by pointing it straight up, then turning the gun so that the grip and bipod face me. I place the bipod legs on top of my right shoulder (possible with an Atlas, a Harris will collapse) to support some of the weight and then hold the grip of the rifle against my hip using my right hand. This keeps the muzzle pointed straight up so long as you don't bend forwards to pick up anything, so I pick up my rifle last and set it down first to ensure it never points a direction besides up.

 

[Mormegil87]

I have not yet been able to shoot a match, and I'm curious at these matches how the best way to pack your rifle is. How do most people carry rifles at matches? What is the best way to carry a rifle at a match?

I've carried my rifles both ways and still do. If shoot my AXMC I generally carry muzzle down. The pistol grip makes carrying it pretty easy. If I'm shooting my custom gun I carry it muzzle up.

The big kicker is if I'm running a suppressor without a sling I have to carry muzzle up. If I have a sling I hike it up good and tight so I can run muzzle down.