PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[Dthomas3523]

so are training courses which require people testing out of before being allowed to compete going to start being required? cause thats the only way i see anything being ACTUALLY fixed...the root of this is changing PEOPLE

no rule in place, enforced or not is going to truly stop a ND that sails a range and causes damage

ive competed at high levels in various sports/competition and people are the same in every one of them for the most part...you have a majority that follow the rules to the best of their ability and then handfuls who skirt it every chance they get

nothing is special in precision rifle with how people act other than we have dangerous weapons...putting a weapon in someones hand doesnt change who they are and how they operate (it should, but in reality it doesnt always)

people argue ref calls in everything, pros use PEDs, people get caught cheating and bending rules in everything, they get punished, next guy does the same til hes caught also...theres always a next guy...

ive seen shooters argue safety DQs in pistol and carbine matches....after the fact theyll make a FB post about it and pretend it was a great learning experience for everyone...blah blah

ive seen more NDs at pistol/carbine matches than i have rifle matches and i only attend 2-4 per year vs 15-20 rifle...them being strict on DQs hasnt fixed anything for them...go to any pistol/carbine match around here and you can listen to all the ricochets leaving the range and flyin over head

someone sails the range on a small property and a random person takes a bullet...

"o but we DQ'd him, its cool, he broke the rules..."

dudes still leakin...

Unfortunately you are right.

And even if there was a course taught and “certifies” a shooter......it’s still just a paper trail to be used when shit happens.

Shooter is still either going to be safe or not, either stick to rules or skirt them.

I do believe in being proactive, but in the end you still have the human factor and math is math. Eventually someone ends up with a hole in them.

 

[Tree]

If an RO was designated on a stage to be the safety officer and they had bee properly orientated on the safety rules I believe the majority of them would have called it and stopped it. It's to me two issues integrity of shooter and formalization of safety officer for matches. Can't get safety officers for a match..... No match for the club.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What the hell are you saying? The shooter closes the bolt while still positioning, grabs & pulls the trigger, and fires the shot. The match is over for that shooter and he is DQed....that is if you have a shooter with integrity and/ or someone with eyes on the shooter. It's not exactly rocket science...

What he is saying is:

The ND still happened and the bullet is in flight.

Need more training to fix this. 15 RO’s watching this guy and he still ND’s. Ain’t nobody out there with a baseball glove catching the bullet.

It’s a valid point. And goes hand in hand. We need rules, but also need training.

 

[morganlamprecht]

What the hell are you saying? The shooter closes the bolt while still positioning, grabs & pulls the trigger, and fires the shot. The match is over for that shooter and he is DQed....that is if you have a shooter with integrity and/ or someone with eyes on the shooter. It's not exactly rocket science...

wtf are even talkin about?

if you cant read and comprehend, dont bother replying...

i didnt say he didnt ND....i didnt say he shouldnt be disqualified...

i said what rule would have stopped this ND? how many ROs would have stopped a guy prone adjusting his rifle?

im not defending anything, im saying find a REAL SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

in a perfect world, yes the shooter would have stopped himself...what world do u live in? cause the one im in is far from perfect...

except everyone on the internet who are clearly virtuous to a fault

 

[sabrecross]

What he is saying is:

The ND still happened and the bullet is in flight.

Need more training to fix this. 15 RO’s watching this guy and he still ND’s. Ain’t nobody out there with a baseball glove catching the bullet.

It’s a valid point. And goes hand in hand. We need rules, but also need training.

I understand what he is saying. No amount of training is going to stop NDs from occurring. But when they do occur, they need to be caught and swiftly punished. That means that you need an objective eye watching whomever is shooting...not a squad buddy or someone of the like.

 

[Olen_4504]

this thread is cracking me up. this discussion was good for a bit so i kept coming back to read

but now it's going no where. 99.9% of the posts are all in agreement. yet ya'll just keep posting and arguing with each other.

then some random person chimes in with the trigger weight thing again and gets that ball rolling for 10 posts before it dies out then gets brought back up a page later because no one reads

who is deflecting? ya'll are all saying the same shit. the couple people that posted it wasn't a big deal got their shit handed to them and disappeared. so why do the 5 people that all agree on the situation keep posting and arguing with each other?

overwhelmingly everyone agrees there should be 2 officials at each stage in some capacity. someone strictly for safety/rules the other for scoring/spotting.

what else is there to discuss?

i wouldn't be mad if this thread got closed and we just waited for someone of importance high up to come along and say what they plan to do. IF they even do.


you'll never 100% eliminate safety hazards. that's common sense. all you can do is put preventative measures/rules in place and enforce them and pound them into peoples heads and punish those who break them to remind everyone to take it seriously.

that's it. it's the same in any workplace or sport.

these circular argument threads are boring and old. 9 pages of literally the same thing being repeated over and over.

welcome to the internet i guess.

i just keep coming back hoping someone of importance chimes in and says "good video - good discussion. 2 ROs are required at every stage at every sanctioned match or it doesn't happen, end of story." figure out a way to make it happen.

 

[sabrecross]

wtf are even talkin about?

if you cant read and comprehend, dont bother replying...

i didnt say he didnt ND....i didnt say he shouldnt be disqualified...

i said what rule would have stopped this ND? how many ROs would have stopped a guy prone adjusting his rifle?

im not defending anything, im saying find a REAL SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM

in a perfect world, yes the shooter would have stopped himself...what world do u live in? cause the one im in is far from perfect...

except everyone on the internet who are clearly virtuous to a fault

Yeah, the other part of what I said which you omitted, was that if there was an objective eye watching the shooter, the shooter could have been DQ, which is a start to enforcing the rules on the book.

 

[Tree]

I disagree

 

[Dthomas3523]

I understand what he is saying. No amount of training is going to stop NDs from occurring. But when they do occur, they need to be caught and swiftly punished. That means that you need an objective eye watching whomever is shooting...not a squad buddy or someone of the like.

Problem is:

Where do you find all these objective people? Not like we have cash flowing everywhere in this game.

Not being a dick (well.....maybe), but the on paper solution is easy. Lots more and trained RO’s.

But finding people to do that is hard.

Let’s say I’m a volunteer RO. I DQ or I don’t give a point. A shooter/s decides to pitch a bitch fit.

I’m only going to put up with so much shit as a volunteer before I either tell everyone to fuck off and leave, or I stop ROing in the future.

So, it’s not as simple a solution as it sounds.

 

[HogsLife]

this thread is cracking me up. this discussion was good for a bit so i kept coming back to read

but now it's going no where. 99.9% of the posts are all in agreement. yet ya'll just keep posting and arguing with each other.

then some random person chimes in with the trigger weight thing again and gets that ball rolling for 10 posts before it dies out then gets brought back up a page later because no one reads

who is deflecting? ya'll are all saying the same shit. the couple people that posted it wasn't a big deal got their shit handed to them and disappeared. so why do the 5 people that all agree on the situation keep posting and arguing with each other?

overwhelmingly everyone agrees there should be 2 officials at each stage in some capacity. someone strictly for safety/rules the other for scoring/spotting.

what else is there to discuss?

i wouldn't be mad if this thread got closed and we just waited for someone of importance high up to come along and say what they plan to do. IF they even do.


you'll never 100% eliminate safety hazards. that's common sense. all you can do is put preventative measures/rules in place and enforce them and pound them into peoples heads and punish those who break them to remind everyone to take it seriously.

that's it. it's the same in any workplace or sport.

these circular argument threads are boring and old. 9 pages of literally the same thing being repeated over and over.

welcome to the internet i guess.

i just keep coming back hoping someone of importance chimes in and says "good video - good discussion. 2 ROs are required at every stage at every sanctioned match or it doesn't happen, end of story." figure out a way to make it happen.

 

[morganlamprecht]

Yeah, the other part of what I said which you omitted, was that if there was an objective eye watching the shooter, the shooter could have been DQ, which is a start to enforcing the rules on the book.

and my original point from a previous post before that one was...context...

who cares if a guy is DQ'd AFTER a round leaves the range and hits someone?

its cool a rando got hit, because we DQ'd the shooter, right? all good? doubtful...

 

[sabrecross]

Problem is:

Where do you find all these objective people? Not like we have cash flowing everywhere in this game.

Not being a dick (well.....maybe), but the on paper solution is easy. Lots more and trained RO’s.

But finding people to do that is hard.

Let’s say I’m a volunteer RO. I DQ or I don’t give a point. A shooter/s decides to pitch a bitch fit.

I’m only going to put up with so much shit as a volunteer before I either tell everyone to fuck off and leave, or I stop ROing in the future.

So, it’s not as simple a solution as it sounds.

I agree. Anytime you volunteer, you will eventually get to a point where you've been shit on so much you will quit doing it. It is a big problem and a reason why there is so much turn over in these type of sports. I'm not saying it is an easy solution.

 

[sabrecross]

and my original point from a previous post before that one was...context...

who cares if a guy is DQ'd AFTER a round leaves the range and hits someone?

its cool a rando got hit, because we DQ'd the shooter, right? all good? doubtful...

It's about creating a atmosphere where people will be more safe and not so cavalier about NDs. You will not be able to stop all NDs...but you can be swift with the rules on the book. I've underlined the important parts hoping that you will get it...I can whip out my coloring book if you need it...

 

[Tree]

I agree. Anytime you volunteer, you will eventually get to a point where you've been shit on so much you will quit doing it. It is a big problem and a reason why there is so much turn over in these type of sports. I'm not saying it is an easy solution.

Well run matches by good MDs do not have this issue. Problems do come up and it's how the MD handles them that determines if volunteers return. There are existing models in other sports that work and could be looked at.

 

[Olen_4504]

Problem is:

Where do you find all these objective people? Not like we have cash flowing everywhere in this game.

Not being a dick (well.....maybe), but the on paper solution is easy. Lots more and trained RO’s.

But finding people to do that is hard.

Let’s say I’m a volunteer RO. I DQ or I don’t give a point. A shooter/s decides to pitch a bitch fit.

I’m only going to put up with so much shit as a volunteer before I either tell everyone to fuck off and leave, or I stop ROing in the future.

So, it’s not as simple a solution as it sounds.

at first it does sound daunting.

but i'm willing to bet - with some creativity - maybe a little sacrifice of some money somewhere for the sake of safety. something could be done relatively easy.

i don't have much experience at two day matches - but Paul at frontline has managed to figure it out. i don't know how but he does.

is it perfect? i'm not entirely sure. but it seems to be the route everyone is suggesting. traveling spotting/score keeping and a stage boss/safety person


it just takes one person with the power to put the hammer down and make it happen.

tell the MDs their match will not happen unless they have the dedicated ROs.... whether it means you have to pay them, offer them free range time, give them a waiver on a match fee - i don't know. but we are all smart people - i'm sure someone could make it happen if their match was on the line.

most of these matches buy lunch and t shirts for everyone. while that is badass and we all appreciate it.

would any of us be THAT MAD if they dropped those extras and used the money to pay ROs?

 

[sabrecross]

Well run matches by good MDs do not have this issue. Problems do come up and it's how the MD handles them that determines if volunteers return. There are existing models in other sports that work and could be looked at.

I agree and the MD's attitude influences the RO's attitudes. It's definitely a top-down flow. I agree with hookedonbrass' comment; 2 ROs on every stage or no match. If people will not step up, then you don't have a match.

 

[morganlamprecht]

It's about creating a atmosphere where people will be more safe and not so cavalier about NDs. You will not be able to stop all NDs...but you can be swift with the rules on the book. I've underlined the important parts hoping that you will get it...I can whip out my coloring book if you need it...

draw this with your crayons 8=====D then sit on it

DQ people that break rules AFTER safety infractions instead of training them on how to not break them in the first place...thats what youre arguing for right now, because my suggestion was training them correctly in the first place...

why not get in front of the problem if everyone is really so concerned about safety?

 

[generalzip]

It's about creating a atmosphere where people will be more safe and not so cavalier about NDs. You will not be able to stop all NDs...but you can be swift with the rules on the book. I've underlined the important parts hoping that you will get it...I can whip out my coloring book if you need it...

While this sounds great when you say it fast, your recommendation is reactionary. It does nothing to actually create a barrier to the ND from happening. It offers no solution to the root cause of the ND. It simply reacts to it happening. Morgan's point isn't that NDs are OK. Much the opposite. His point is you'd be much better served by placing barriers on the left side of the bow tie (prevention) and not the right (mitigation/reaction). Any HSSE expert would agree it is more effective in preventing a Top Event (ND in this case)

There's also no need for the condescending coloring book comment.

 

[Dthomas3523]

That’s also an issue. Shooters get pissy when RO’s are taken care of. When in fact, the RO’s are more important.

Quit putting shooters on a pedestal and make sure they are trained properly.

Treat the RO’s as top priority and make them feel supported so they feel confident in taking that point or DQing a shooter.

Require shooters to take some sort of sponsored course. If you catch a match DQ, you have to take said course again. Find guys like Frank around country who know how to each and have them teach it.

 

[HogsLife]

As @hookedonbrass stated, after 9 pages of this, we’ve come back around numerous times “violently agreeing” with each other, so at this point.......I’m just here looking for opportunities to post funny shit......

 

[Dthomas3523]

Or, just shoot club matches where everyone knows everyone else. Call each other on their shit, and have a good time.

 

[morganlamprecht]

the main issue with finding good, experienced ROs is that in some places it would have to be pulled from the better shooters, as well

places like K&M, CORE, and im guessing frontline are all open/operating ranges? correct? they have a membership to draw from?

other areas are a single location privately held for training or matches only, sometimes in the middle of no where...with no pool to draw from other than the local shooters who attend matches

with 40 matches around the country, every location cant have a large enough pool to draw from...you tell a location they cant host a PRS sanctioned match...then they just host it on their own

 

[Olen_4504]

the main issue with finding good, experienced ROs is that in some places it would have to be pulled from the better shooters, as well

places like K&M, CORE, and im guessing frontline are all open/operating ranges? correct? they have a membership to draw from?

other areas are a single location privately held for training or matches only, sometimes in the middle of no where...with no pool to draw from other than the local shooters who attend matches

with 40 matches around the country, every location cant have a large enough pool to draw from...you tell a location they cant host a PRS sanctioned match...then they host it on their own

yes you are correct about Frontline being an actual range with memberships.


fair point.


i still think it's possible. not easy. but there has to be a way.

 

[morganlamprecht]

we have been tied up thinkin of a way to get ROs to West Tx, 30 min north of Del Rio (5 hrs north west of our local club) for a couple years now...buddy has an awesome 3k acre ranch in the west tx hill country with great terrain that would be perfect for a field match

issue is getting people out there to help run it...hasnt seemed possible yet, and doing it half ass isnt really what the land owner, or any of us who would be helpin want to do so its just been shelved...if someone comes up with a way, we'd be all ears lol

 

[Yoteski]

After catching up on some discussion, I thought of a partial solution. It won't necessarily prevent ND's, but it will help rules be enforced more evenly. Why not set up a go-pro style camera on each stage which captures the shooter at the stage? There's quite a few good cameras out there for reasonable money, and the RO would just have to log the time which each shooter was at the stage along with their score. Therefore, discrepancies could be addressed in real time instead of a he said/she said way. It would also provide a more low profile way for other shooters to address a problem with a match director in a private fashion. The match director could then review the video and make the final call.

 

[Dthomas3523]

yes you are correct about Frontline being an actual range with memberships.


fair point.


i still think it's possible. not easy. but there has to be a way.

Sometimes there just isn’t a “way.”

You can only be as big as money allows. I saw the same thing 15-20 years ago with professional pool/billiards in America.

Lots of people with really good intentions and ideas.

But, the players (shooters) will always want to extract as much as possible. Which isn’t necessarily bad. It’s just how we are as humans.

Problem is, there has to be something to extract. The only way that happens is with revenue that is typically from advertising which requires viewers such as broadcasting on TV.

I watched no less than five organizations come into pool as the “governing body.” I watched a player union form. I watching a millionaire come in and inject a ton of cash into pool.

They all failed because it’s not a spectator sport. Neither is shooting.

Some things can develop into something big, like nascar.

Others are just hobbies and will always remain grass roots.

 

[HogsLife]

Sometimes there just isn’t a “way.”

You can only be as big as money allows. I saw the same thing 15-20 years ago with professional pool/billiards in America.

Lots of people with really good intentions and ideas.

But, the players (shooters) will always want to extract as much as possible. Which isn’t necessarily bad. It’s just how we are as humans.

Problem is, there has to be something to extract. The only way that happens is with revenue that is typically from advertising which requires viewers such as broadcasting on TV.

I watched no less than five organizations come into pool as the “governing body.” I watched a player union form. I watching a millionaire come in and inject a ton of cash into pool.

They all failed because it’s not a spectator sport. Neither is shooting.

Some things can develop into something big, like nascar.

Others are just hobbies and will always remain grass roots.

PRS Sanctioned match = PRS Certified Score Keepers. Top 3 shooter get top 3 shots at prize table then give score keepers / RO’s picks at the table. Without them, the match wouldn’t happen. Gotta make it worth their while, whether that be Sponsor Discount Codes, prize table, $$$, free range membership, whatever something....

Frees up RO’s / Range Personnel to run Match and Safety, shooters get to shoot, Score Keepers spot, score and input scores into PRS records.

PRS runs takes membership $$$ to keep score, then they should should be providing the people to do it as well..........on their dime.

 

[Lowlight]

Prevention works in Layers,

You start ignoring or stripping away the layers because they are inconvenient that is a problem.

Yes, we all agree there needs to be training, but rules also help train people and provide guidelines to follow. If we did nothing more than enforcing the 4 Fundamental Safety Rules, which valid in every situation, more than one where broken. That is how shit happens.

This time it went downrange, what happens we get so complacent and just worried about a score and the results we start getting guys who walk off the line hot. We increase the risk factors by doing nothing or dismissing the blatant violations because they didn't hurt anyone. The rules are in place and have been for a very long time because they work.

Yes, DQ'ing a person after the fact does not prevent an injury from that round, but it can box or contain the violation as it's a layer. It's never 1 Thing that breaks something it's always a combination of little things.

The short times are an issue, the trigger weights creeping down in unskilled hands is an issue, the poor stage design is an issue, the number of target or movement can be an issue, support side (which is not practiced) is an issue, it's layers.

Without rules, you have no sport. Name a single sport that does not have rules in place? I'll wait.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Without rules, you have no sport. Name a single sport that does not have rules in place? I'll wait.

Precision Rifle!!

(Sorry, that was too easy)

 

[Tchitcherine]

Lest we forget: complacency towards safety leads to "Operator Level Downgraded" consequences.

 

[davsco]

put the rules in everyone's faces, multiple times. email the rules out along with match registration confirmations. safety brief before match starts reiterating each of the safety rules (don't just say 'be safe and don't shoot each other') and clarify match dq if broken. 2-3 shooters in each squad are designated RO's (timer/safety/rules, scorekeeper, glasser) and get some perks for doing that (match fees waived, etc). if it's a big match and can afford dedicated RO's that don't shoot (or shoot the match the day before), great.

 

[PhOnEpHrEaK]

I'm just going to throw it out there. Saturday I had an ND at a match.

I had a double feed; Dropped the mag pulled bolt back, reinserted mag, closed bolt, bang.

When it happened I didn’t even realize it was my rifle that had gone off. I thought it was the stage next to me until I looked over and they weren’t shooting yet.

I slowly pulled my bolt back hoping that it was either a live round or noting there, only to find a spent case. I dropped the mag, put my chamber flag in and told the spotter I was done for the day.

Either I had a slam fire (which has never happened), I hit the trigger as I shut the bolt, or my weak hand (which was stabilizing the rifle) was not only on the grip, but also the trigger so when the bolt closed it lit the round off.

There was no getting mad at the RO, scorekeeper, or spotter. I was responsible for the round no matter what the cause was, and it did not go anywhere near where I wanted it to. It may not have even been in the field of fire, I honestly don't know. But I knew it was an ND so I called it, and I was done for the day, that simple. My fault.

 

[Cjwise5]

Guys, after A LOT of thought, (lost hours of sleep) I have decided to take the video down. It's been around long enough now, enough people have seen it, it has served its purpose, which was always and only to bring light to the fact that ND's are happening too often in PRS/NRL matches. I have not been pressured by anyone with authority over me to remove the video. I do not feel guilty about bringing it up as a real concern in our sport.
I do feel horrible that the RO (Laura) got dragged into this mess and I definitely should have discussed the ND with the match director first before deciding to post the video in the way I did.
With that all being said, the gentleman in the video deserves to go on with his life as does the RO, and I can't stand that I caused all this drama. It's the last thing I wanted to do.

Joel W. - PRN

 

[HogsLife]

Guys, after A LOT of thought, (lost hours of sleep) I have decided to take the video down. It's been around long enough now, enough people have seen it, it has served its purpose, which was always and only to bring light to the fact that ND's are happening too often in PRS/NRL matches. I have not been pressured by anyone with authority over me to remove the video. I do not feel guilty about bringing it up as a real concern in our sport.
I do feel horrible that the RO (Laura) got dragged into this mess and I definitely should have discussed the ND with the match director first before deciding to post the video in the way I did.
With that all being said, the gentleman in the video deserves to go on with his life as does the RO, and I can't stand that I caused all this drama. It's the last thing I wanted to do.

Joel W. - PRN

You are the cause of ZERO drama bro. You brought up a valid issue that continues to happen, and you did it for the right reasons. Keep doing you man, It needs to have the light shined on it!

Everyone here appreciates what you do for the Precision Rifle Community. And the ones that don’t are part of the problem. Keep it up man.

 

[sabrecross]

I respect your thoughts and I think that is the wrong thing to do. Evidence is one of the few things that will promote change.

 

[Inline6]

so are training courses which require people testing out of before being allowed to compete going to start being required? cause thats the only way i see anything being ACTUALLY fixed...the root of this is changing PEOPLE

no rule in place, enforced or not is going to truly stop a ND that sails a range and causes damage

ive competed at high levels in various sports/competition and people are the same in every one of them for the most part...you have a majority that follow the rules to the best of their ability and then handfuls who skirt it every chance they get

nothing is special in precision rifle with how people act other than we have dangerous weapons...putting a weapon in someones hand doesnt change who they are and how they operate (it should, but in reality it doesnt always)

people argue ref calls in everything, pros use PEDs, people get caught cheating and bending rules in everything, they get punished, next guy does the same til hes caught also...theres always a next guy...

ive seen shooters argue safety DQs in pistol and carbine matches....after the fact theyll make a FB post about it and pretend it was a great learning experience for everyone...blah blah

ive seen more NDs at pistol/carbine matches than i have rifle matches and i only attend 2-4 per year vs 15-20 rifle...them being strict on DQs hasnt fixed anything for them...go to any pistol/carbine match around here and you can listen to all the ricochets leaving the range and flyin over head

someone sails the range on a small property and a random person takes a bullet...

"o but we DQ'd him, its cool, he broke the rules..."

dudes still leakin...

Actually when I first got into this sport you actually had to give a description of your shooting history. The MDs wanted to know who was going to shoot their match. If you were green or had a good bit of experience.

I was actually thinking when I signed up I hope I can make the cut. At that time I had taken carbine I/II Pistol I/II and Shotgun classes.

 

[LawnMM]

After catching up on some discussion, I thought of a partial solution. It won't necessarily prevent ND's, but it will help rules be enforced more evenly. Why not set up a go-pro style camera on each stage which captures the shooter at the stage? There's quite a few good cameras out there for reasonable money, and the RO would just have to log the time which each shooter was at the stage along with their score. Therefore, discrepancies could be addressed in real time instead of a he said/she said way. It would also provide a more low profile way for other shooters to address a problem with a match director in a private fashion. The match director could then review the video and make the final call.

Who's going to store all that shit, whos going to review it? Are you only going to review it if somebody makes a complaint, or will you task somebody with watching hours of video looking for violations?

Trust me, the video evidence thing is a can of worms you don't want to open.

PRS Sanctioned match = PRS Certified Score Keepers. Top 3 shooter get top 3 shots at prize table then give score keepers / RO’s picks at the table. Without them, the match wouldn’t happen. Gotta make it worth their while, whether that be Sponsor Discount Codes, prize table, $$$, free range membership, whatever something....

Frees up RO’s / Range Personnel to run Match and Safety, shooters get to shoot, Score Keepers spot, score and input scores into PRS records.

PRS runs takes membership $$$ to keep score, then they should should be providing the people to do it as well..........on their dime.

You know how much bitching that generates? Last time somebody let the ROs walk the table there was a ten page bitch fest of entitlement whining about how the guys who placed at the top "earned those prizes" and those prizes "belong" to them and not the ROs who didn't "work for it" like they did.

The rules are in place, just need somebody with the balls to enforce them instead of worrying about being liked or everybodys pal.

Maybe we need to elect a series Sheriff.

 

[Bama Fan]

I am throwing this out there. I live in NC and I am a certified RSO. I have never shot a match but if there is a match within a reasonable distance, I will be happy to volunteer to help. I can put that certification to good use and maybe learn something.

 

[HogsLife]

Who's going to store all that shit, whos going to review it? Are you only going to review it if somebody makes a complaint, or will you task somebody with watching hours of video looking for violations?

Trust me, the video evidence thing is a can of worms you don't want to open.



You know how much bitching that generates? Last time somebody let the ROs walk the table there was a ten page bitch fest of entitlement whining about how the guys who placed at the top "earned those prizes" and those prizes "belong" to them and not the ROs who didn't "work for it" like they did.

The rules are in place, just need somebody with the balls to enforce them instead of worrying about being liked or everybodys pal.

Maybe we need to elect a series Sheriff.

Who gives a shit. Bitches are gonna bitch. Same bitches that complain about how @NoLegs24 works an obstacle during a match? Fuck those faggots..

If you want something off a prize table then come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. After that you can have a participation ribbon.

If it wasn’t for the RO’s there wouldn’t be a match. They’re the volunteers. Take care of the ones that are taking care of you.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Who gives a shit. Bitches are gonna bitch. Same bitches that complain about how @NoLegs24 works an obstacle during a match? Fuck them.

If you want something off a prize table then come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.

If it wasn’t for the RO’s there wouldn’t be a match. They’re the volunteers. Take care of the ones that are taking care of you.

If you want to see the human species at its best, go to a match in which they open the floor to the prize table after a predetermined number of people walk it.

It’s a mad house. One of the most entertaining things I’ve ever seen.

 

[LawnMM]

Who gives a shit. Bitches are gonna bitch. If you want something off a prize table then come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.

If it wasn’t for the RO’s there wouldn’t be a match. They’re the volunteers. Take care of the ones that are taking care of you.

The point is, guys are coming up with shit that's been tried before as if it's a revelation. Those that have been around a while realize the reality of the situation.

"Two ROs mandatory at every stage or no match"

Good fuckin luck with that, there's barely enough for one on each stage. You think everyone is just going to close shop and not hold a match because some guy on the internet thumps his chest and says minimum of two or no match? Doesn't work that way and never will.

Realistically, the only changes you will see are by small groups of squared away shooters holding events.

The PRS should get involved as a governing body but why would they? They're raking in cash by the barrel for declaring who the official coffee machine of the PRS is. Why take on additional responsibility when you're already making bank for doing nothing?

They post scores and host a website. Few hundred bucks a year tops in operating expenses against six figure revenue for saying a shit Daniel Defense rifle, that not one shooter will use, is "the official rifle of the PRS"

PRS = Putting Revenue before Safety.

If "they" really gave a shit they'd do something about this. Actions speak louder than words. It's a for profit organization and they're making bank with things how they are.

Why take on additional responsibility or liability? By saying "matches are up to the individual match director" that's who eats the liability and logistical issues of holding a match. They post the scores and cut a check at the end of the season.

Guys that have been shooting a few months think logic is the answer and it's not. People and businesses operate out of self interest and monetary gain.

You want something to change, boycott their matches and the series and suddenly nobody's wants to pay $50k to be the series official light blend of coffee anymore.

Or wait until somebody gets hurt and there's a lawsuit, then it'll change.

 

[HogsLife]

The point is, guys are coming up with shit that's been tried before as if it's a revelation. Those that have been around a while realize the reality of the situation.

"Two ROs mandatory at every stage or no match"

Good fuckin luck with that, there's barely enough for one on each stage. You think everyone is just going to close shop and not hold a match because some guy on the internet thumps his chest and says minimum of two or no match? Doesn't work that way and never will.

Realistically, the only changes you will see are by small groups of squared away shooters holding events.

The PRS should get involved as a governing body but why would they? They're raking in cash by the barrel for declaring who the official coffee machine of the PRS is. Why take on additional responsibility when you're already making bank for doing nothing?

They post scores and host a website. Few hundred bucks a year tops in operating expenses against six figure revenue for saying a shit Daniel Defense rifle, that not one shooter will use, is "the official rifle of the PRS"

PRS = Putting Revenue before Safety.

If "they" really gave a shit they'd do something about this. Actions speak louder than words. It's a for profit organization and they're making bank with things how they are.

Why take on additional responsibility or liability? By saying "matches are up to the individual match director" that's who eats the liability and logistical issues of holding a match. They post the scores and cut a check at the end of the season.

Guys that have been shooting a few months think logic is the answer and it's not. People and businesses operate out of self interest and monetary gain.

You want something to change, boycott their matches and the series and suddenly nobody's wants to pay $50k to be the series official light blend of coffee anymore.

Or wait until somebody gets hurt and there's a lawsuit, then it'll change.

True story....

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laughing, at this. Some shooters (an MD's who prefer money over safety) are worst for the sport than camera toting left'ys.

 

[4dds]

I’ll just start by saying I haven’t read everything here so these ideas may have been put out there. But self discipline only work if people are willing to discipline themselves. So make it a tiered system. If you have a ND and call yourself on it it is a stage dq. If the RO or another person in your squad have to stop you and call you on it it is a match dq. If it is caught on film and found later down the road then it removes your top 2 matches. I think a bigger portion of people would call themselves on it and take the stage dq vs having someone else call them on it or hoping it wasn’t caught on video. I think the PRN made the right call putting it out there for the world to see. Actually seeing the guy have the “oh shit” moment then move along like nothing happened opened a lot of eyes and started people talking.

 

[doctnj]

final thoughts on this and Im done. I dont think calling out an entire league over a couple issues. Ive shot in many many states and matches and Ive heard some extremely competent MDs giving specific orders to the shooters. Ive also seen some top tier shooters get away with some crap at their "home range". That freakin bothers me as much as the NDs do. Just as the sport is growing fast and the numbers of new shooters are growing fast, also in turn their are many NEW MDs all over the place. There is no school for them. There should be. On local levels you will generally not get dedicated ROs. Even on some of the big matches we have some stages that were "self" ROd. If some just dont show up because they are not getting paid what are you going to do. cancel the match? You better not. Not if Ive bought 2 plane tickets and hotel for 4 nights and taken off work. If a match is to be developed a quick drawing of over head view could be signed off on and MD go through a 1 day training session.

we could do with out some of the ridiculous positions that also cause safety issues like making SHORT PEOPLE SHOOT OFF TALL OBJECTS ON THEIR TOES!!! Im sick of seeing short people having to teeter back and forth straining to get a look through the scope and sending it. Many of those are Purposeful NDs caused by not having a shorter option for shorter people!! Having my wife standing on a stack of 2x4s because thats all that is around and there is no other option for short folks is ridiculous. if you are going to bitch about one so should the other be solved!!! Shit at GAP she was held up by another shooter on the damn PRS barricade. I have pictures. If there is no safe option for them to stand on that is as safe as the rest of us on the ground then I really dont want to hear about NDs. You cant be balls to the wall about one thing then "what ever" about something that probably doesnt effect 75% of shooters.

 

[christopheraz]

There should be consequences beyond ending your match for an ND. Sure, sending you home for the weekend might sting a little.

I think there should always be a safety officer watching your every move during a stage. I understand there may not always be enough bodies to spot, score and be a safety officer. Let the squad be the safety officers. If there is an ND on that stage and the squad does not report it, then DQ that squad unless the person reports it. A slap on the hand does not always work.

---

If you have an ND and there is proof. You admit you had one. Your match is over.
If you have an ND and there is proof. You do not admit to it, and you have to be tracked down. You get hit with a 2 year ban. No regional or national matches.

I shoot our club matches with my daughter, she's soon to be a teenager. If I ever torched one off and had an ND in front of her and did not admit it. What kind of a role model am I attempting to be for her? Even if she was not there to witness it. That is still a mistake I would have to own up to.

 

[LawnMM]

I'll call out the "entire league" over it because it falls on them to deal with it. They're the ONE entity with the ability to address system/league wide issues.

They have leverage over the matches because less people will shoot a match that doesn't count towards their points accumulation or prize money.

They have leverage over shooters because they can levy disciplinary action and penalties that affect their ability to participate in the points race for the money.

We can jump on a match director to do something but that solves one problem in one location, assuming they do anything at all. Doesn't address a wider issue. You have to make an example.

Same with unsafe shooters or guys "bending" the rules. If the MD spanks them they take the hit and soldier on. If the league whacks them or fines them a game like an NFL player it doesn't matter what match they attend or where in the country, their score is zero while they serve their penance.

The organization needs to have some skin in the game. If they just whore their logo on whatever product is willing to pay without managing problems or addressing issues then what's the fucking point of the league?

Oh, right, the stupid giant checks. If that's all we care about then have at it. Feel bad for the poor bastards wife thats on her own cause hubby catches a round because the league that's supposed to governing this circus is too busy painting the tent and selling tickets to train the animals.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I don’t disagree with making barricades for the vertically challenged. That’s only fair. That being said.........

you see that an obstacle is not suited to you, and that you can not negotiate safely, yet decide you are willing to attempt the unsafe shot potentially putting one over a berm into someone house, having an ND, etc, yet because the points mean more to you that safety, you take the shot and then proceed to blame the MD’s for not giving you any other options?

Interesting.........

I see both sides.

But I agree, if someone doesn’t feel the obstacle is safe, don’t shoot it and call the MD. Talk it out civilly and work it out.

If enough people do this and the common complaint is height, the MD will change/add height or provide a stable step or stool.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hell, I believe Frank shot off the single barrel at the brawl.

I’m sure someone complained, but it was the safe way for him to shoot it.

 

[generalzip]

Hell, I believe Frank shot off the single barrel at the brawl.

I’m sure someone complained, but it was the safe way for him to shoot it.

Honestly there was no safe way to shoot that stage... 45 degrees to your right there were other people...

I totally agree. I have no problems whatsoever with altering stages on the spot for people with disabilities, handicaps, or physical limitations that would otherwise make it unsafe. I could care less about the extra point they may get from that potentially as long as it keeps people safe.