PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!

[doctnj]

No one is penalized if everyone has to play by the same rule, if everyone has to shoot a 2lb+ trigger, there's no penalty. That's like saying the 3200fps limit is a penalty because you want to shoot something faster, as long as everyone has to follow the rule, it's not a penalty.

Hair triggers are a safety issue, period. It only takes a tiny movement to send a round very far off target at these distances, it doesn't have to be someone loading a round before they are getting into position, or shoving a finger in a trigger before they are in position. I've seen guys follow all the rules, not load a round or get their finger in the trigger before on target, and something happens (dust in the eyes, wasp sting, etc.) and takes them off target and their hair trigger sends a round off target. It happens, it just hasn't happened to you yet, can it happen with a 3lb trigger, sure but way less likely. We should not be using benchrest weight triggers in such an uncontrolled environment.

I can't count the weekend warriors that I've seen with light single action handgun triggers that swear they are trained and ultrasafe and the first round out of their holster in a shoot house with a little stress goes into the floor or ceiling. Sooner or later something happens that gets everyone out of the comfort zone, when it does, a hair trigger makes the odds of an ND much higher.

Safety is EVERYONE's responsibility, if you see someone being unsafe, and don't say anything YOU are the problem and should be penalized. Again I said if anyone in the squad saw it and didn't say anything penalize them as well, I did not say penalize the whole squad just because they were there.

I have to say this about the "hair" triggers. I run a really light trigger so does my wife. But I have to say that the new triggers that have come out recently are vastly better than those made even 5 years ago. I can set my finger on my trigger even lightly tap it and it wont break. I can tap it from the side and it wont break. I marry my finger to the trigger and pull it and it breaks at a very light weight. My old jewel would break cleanly but I had to be a little more careful with it. I feel like even though the amount of force it requires to break the shot, it takes every bit of it to the point that it feels heavier than the old triggers used to feel at the same pull weight if that make sense.

 

[Tnc]

Dammit how did this thread get brought back to life.

 

[ToddM]

The only reason I think we would need to grow the sport is the same that we would need to grow any shooting discipline. These sports demonstrate responsible gun ownership and support the 2A fight. Only reason IMO.

They do until someone gets hurt with an ND and it's all over the national news that even seasoned professional competition shooters can't keep from accidentally firing off rounds in an unsafe manner. Worse yet if someone gets hurt then it will be even professional shooters can't keep from shooting each other. Pretty sure the DNC stays up late at night just praying for such an incident to hit the media.

The other benefit of more matches/shooters is more money into shooting and equipment development and more ranges. More money might stimulate new clubs/ranges with longer distances. Around here if you want to shoot more than 300 yards, it's a several hour drive, or a 200+ person waiting list to get into a club that only opens a handful of slots a year. While it can be annoying to have crowded ranges, I have hope it will drive more clubs, especially those setup for longer ranges than 100-200 yards. Look at the really great cheaper factory rifle/scope options we have now that precision rifle sport shooting has driven.

In ND a couple decades ago there was just a tiny youth trapshooting contingent, a few teams at the state shoot every year with no school support. Adult shooters were always complaining about them at shoots having to wait for kids at the state shoot etc. In 2018 there were almost 1500 students competing and 49 high schools in ND with official school trapshooting teams. Now they have their own ranges, and tournaments, those shooters drove new ranges and shoots of their own.

 

[FALex]

Remember last year when the nation got flooded with matches and they all conflicted with each other?

Last year? Shit, let's talk next weekend. My local PRS club (Parma, Idaho) has a nationwide match this coming weekend. As of my last count, which was last weekend, there were 27 people signed up to shoot it.

 

[doctnj]

To tag on to your description of being semi-flooded with unregulated new guys:

You know what makes me go "Hmm" lately? The constant and dogmatic idea that we need to grow the sport. "Grow the sport!" #growthesport #sponsers

I really don't know why we have to grow PRS. Does it really matter if we have more matches? Remember last year when the nation got flooded with matches and they all conflicted with each other? We've gotten to the point where there's waiting lists for club matches. Most of the matches in my area max out every month and there is some sort of match every weekend, usually two that conflict with each other. And we need more people coming to matches?

The only reason I think we would need to grow the sport is the same that we would need to grow any shooting discipline. These sports demonstrate responsible gun ownership and support the 2A fight. Only reason IMO.

There is another side to needing still to grow the sport. Responsibly grow the sport. Sure at the beginning of almost any year even club matches sell out, but as summer months come in and people spread out and go travel and go on vacations its difficult at times to get a match 50% filled. I actually looked into purchasing a range that was shutting down a few months ago. But the numbers just werent there to support the business day to day. The issue has become too many ranges and not enough shooters. So yes there is still plenty of room to grow the sport. So what if there is a conflict. If there is enough shooters and I can drive 2 hours and not 6 thats awesome. People can simply go to the range that is closest to them. One of my goals if I had purchased the range was to have beginners training. A pipeline if you would to get people under a controlled environment, some of the "what to expect and how to act". But because it added up to a total loss on paper I backed out fast.

I saw someone else mention the timed stages and Ill say this again. As per my arm band idea. Those w the arm band would not be in it to win it necessarily but competing against other arm band shooters and have an additional 30 sec per stage where they are afforded the opportunity to concentrate on fundamentals not speed. Also by wearing the band they dont fade into the crowd. K and M caught a lot of flack at the beginning of the year by making everyone register in the prs website. Well you have to have some way to track shooters. They also at least last year, gave new shooters a different color hat so that all experienced, not necessarily pro shooters, could watch out for them. We have to start somewhere. I got started 3 years ago after a you tube video. Ive been shooting all my life and trained in the military but I still practiced for six months before signing up for a match because I had never done this type of shooting before.

As many folks as we see in the sport there are the majority of the population that dont even know it exists. Most of the supply chains for shooters is made up of small business. There are a lot of our friends that rely on the new shooter to build a rifle to put food on the table. The big industry has to see the benefit of sponsoring a national match to put prizes on the table. So yes we just wanted to "grow the sport" but there werent ever really any thoughts on how to "qualify" people to even shoot a local match just come on out and shoot. Ok if you are going to say that to someone who has never shot a match before then that person is YOUR responsibility.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Let me preface this comment/questions with---I have never coordinated nor run a competition event, much less a series, but business is business and growth is growth.

Bottom line the PRS/NRL/Etc etc are a Business, plain and simple. Just as in ALL other industries; a work place injury can not only shut that particular job down, it can shut the business down. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc is going to have to come to the realization on BEFORE it is too late.

Now to expand on the influx of new shooters as doc and ruebenski mentioned...and what to do with them/how to handle them. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc needs to address ASAP, IMO. As a business you do not want to turn down customers but at the same time you do not want to loose company due to an injury. So the "Series" is going to have to look at regulating the process of a new shooter entering the "deep" end of the pool.

This can be done in several ways, such as the Series can hold (aka pay for the hosting) new shooter orientation/walk through events at the local club level. New shooter gets his registration card stamped at the successful conclusion of the orientation. Single stamp allows him to compete in a single day event, Double stamps allow him to compete in 2 day event.

For example:
You cannot get a hunting license without a Hunters safety education course, so why should the Series allow someone to compete at a dynamic event without attending some kind of course.
You cannot just go direct to the LRI (Long Range Interdiction) course in the SEAL pipeline...you have to prove yourself in the other shooting courses first.
You cannot go direct to the Masters in PGA...you must "prove" you can play the game at xzy level first.
You cannot get a drivers license without proving you can parallel park , so shouldn't you have to prove you can safely maneuver yourself and your rifle under a specific time constraint.

Long story short....There needs to be some regulation from the SERIES level before the series is leveled via injury.
Yes I know my suggestion is not a fix all but it is a conversation starter

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[morganlamprecht]

Hi,

Let me preface this comment/questions with---I have never coordinated nor run a competition event, much less a series, but business is business and growth is growth.

Bottom line the PRS/NRL/Etc etc are a Business, plain and simple. Just as in ALL other industries; a work place injury can not only shut that particular job down, it can shut the business down. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc is going to have to come to the realization on BEFORE it is too late.

Now to expand on the influx of new shooters as doc and ruebenski mentioned...and what to do with them/how to handle them. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc needs to address ASAP, IMO. As a business you do not want to turn down customers but at the same time you do not want to loose company due to an injury. So the "Series" is going to have to look at regulating the process of a new shooter entering the "deep" end of the pool.

This can be done in several ways, such as the Series can hold (aka pay for the hosting) new shooter orientation/walk through events at the local club level. New shooter gets his registration card stamped at the successful conclusion of the orientation. Single stamp allows him to compete in a single day event, Double stamps allow him to compete in 2 day event.

For example:
You cannot get a hunting license without a Hunters safety education course, so why should the Series allow someone to compete at a dynamic event without attending some kind of course.
You cannot just go direct to the LRI (Long Range Interdiction) course in the SEAL pipeline...you have to prove yourself in the other shooting courses first.
You cannot go direct to the Masters in PGA...you must "prove" you can play the game at xzy level first.
You cannot get a drivers license without proving you can parallel park , so shouldn't you have to prove you can safely maneuver yourself and your rifle under a specific time constraint.

Long story short....There needs to be some regulation from the SERIES level before the series is leveled via injury.
Yes I know my suggestion is not a fix all but it is a conversation starter

Sincerely,
Theis

yup...post #336 in this thread...ive been saying people need to get vetted for a while now if there is really going to be a change

 

[HogsLife]

The thread the wouldn’’t die.......

 

[Alpine 338]

This is how I feel about most PRS/NRL matches, and some of the one day club matches that are sprouting up. Shooting off of wobbly crap, that you would never take a shot off of in real life is a waste of ammo and barrel life in my opinion.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is how I feel about most PRS/NRL matches, and some of the one day club matches that are sprouting up. Shooting off of wobbly crap, that you would never take a shot off of in real life is a waste of ammo and barrel life in my opinion.View attachment 7121741

Guess I will post here again.

You’re a grown man. Don’t shoot the stage and take a zero. It’s just a rifle match. No one is making you take the shot.

 

[Alpine 338]

Guess I will post here again.

You’re a grown man. Don’t shoot the stage and take a zero. It’s just a rifle match. No one is making you take the shot.

Actually I'm going farther than that, I'm not shooting circus type matches anymore. There's enough matches in my geographic area that are true field matches. That's enough to keep me happy.

I posted the above as satire, but with a meaningful truth, that if you honestly believe in reducing ND's, you need to come to terms that putting someone in a dangerous and stressful position, in an unrealistic time limit, the risks of ND's are greatly increased.

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

I did paintball tournaments back in the day and that sport heavily relies on the honor system. We'd be the losers running gorpros and contour cams on our barrels for after match studies, and the amount of times players would hide a hit my covering themselves with old paint from the bunkers, or hiding the shot to wipe was obscene at NATIONAL tournaments.

That's what got myself, and MANY others out of it. What does it matter if you play by the rules and no one epse does? Lack of honor/integrity.


In PRS, lying about safety is the same thing in my book. You were careless, unaware, leading to a sending a round off unintentionally. You just tossed the PRECISION part of PRS out the window.

Maybe if you quickly acknowledge an ND, you could either just get DQ'd for that stage and or keep whatever points you had up to the ND, and get to continue shooting for the day.

Whereas if you try to hide it, you're done for the rest of the competition and the points you had for the day is subtracted from your overall score.

Harsh? Yeah it is. But a lack of integrity will SEVERELY effect the future of the sport.

I get where you are coming from but the comparison is apples to oranges.

Wiping in NXL/NPPL is part of the game. Not an integrity thing. Hiding wipes is a skill and the best players are good at it. If the ref didn’t catch it good on you...if the ref caught the wipe then it’s a 2for1 and you are in the box for 2 minutes. You try the cheat and get caught you pay the price. That’s the gamble you take and part of the game.

Lying in PRS is magnitudes worse than wiping a hit. Safety is paramount.

I’m with you on strong punishment. I personally believe that NDs should be automatic match DQ...but I’ve only been shooting comps less than a year. My opinion may change but in 6 regional shoots I have yet to see an ND.

I played a couple dozen national paintball tourneys and witnessed hundreds of wipes haha!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Actually I'm going farther than that, I'm not shooting circus type matches anymore. There's enough matches in my geographic area that are true field matches. That's enough to keep me happy.

I posted the above as satire, but with a meaningful truth, that if you honestly believe in reducing ND's, you need to come to terms that putting someone in a dangerous and stressful position, in an unrealistic time limit, the risks of ND's are greatly increased.

Then we should shut it all down.

It’s a competition......with weapons. Guns were designed as weapons first and foremost. And we are playing a game with them.

By that definition alone, it is always a dangerous and stressful situation.

If I give someone 90s to shoot UP TO 10 shots, that doesn’t mean they need to get them all off. They are the ones who decide if they can safely get them off. Some stages (see rifles only) are designed in such a way that if you get off all the shots, there’s no way you were able to make clean shots on them all.

The time is never “unrealistic” as I have seen absolutely zero stages in which it states “shooter *must* get X number of rounds off.”

I could tell you that you have 5 seconds and 10 rounds. Would you even try to get them all off? Of course not. That’s the exact same principle as getting off 15 shots in 90s for most shooters.

Now......should we do a better job at educating shooters they should be aware of their capabilities and realize getting off good clean safe shots are more important than getting off all available rounds? Absolutely we should. That comes with the vetting that has been talked about.

Now, if an MD is constantly coming up with stuff like the cooler finale stage, then yes, that needs to be addressed. A good way would be for shooters to decline to shoot those stages.

Timing out on stages isn’t a bad thing usually. And I’ve seen zero MD’s or shooters out any stress on a shooter to get the shots off. In fact, most of the time I hear “you have 10s left, get one more clean shot off” or something to that effect.

The pressure shooters feel is 100000% self induced and should be taught as such. Hell, I’ve had shooters that we forgot to even hit the start button on the time and they are rushing. Timer isn’t actually on, just the self induced though of it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I get where you are coming from but the comparison is apples to oranges.

Wiping in NXL/NPPL is part of the game. Not an integrity thing. Hiding wipes is a skill and the best players are good at it. If the ref didn’t catch it good on you...if the ref caught the wipe then it’s a 2for1 and you are in the box for 2 minutes. You try the cheat and get caught you pay the price. That’s the gamble you take and part of the game.

Lying in PRS is magnitudes worse than wiping a hit. Safety is paramount.

I’m with you on strong punishment. I personally believe that NDs should be automatic match DQ...but I’ve only been shooting comps less than a year. My opinion may change but in 6 regional shoots I have yet to see an ND.

I played a couple dozen national paintball tourneys and witnessed hundreds of wipes haha!

Wait......hiding the fact that you were hit.......is a skill? Gtfo

It’s in the rules that you’re out if caught wiping so that it’s covered. Not to make it part of the game. That’s cheating.

You witness hundreds of cheating.

 

[308pirate]

I get where you are coming from but the comparison is apples to oranges.

Wiping in NXL/NPPL is part of the game. Not an integrity thing. Hiding wipes is a skill and the best players are good at it. If the ref didn’t catch it good on you...if the ref caught the wipe then it’s a 2for1 and you are in the box for 2 minutes. You try the cheat and get caught you pay the price. That’s the gamble you take and part of the game.

Nope. It's apples to apples.

Hiding a hit is cheating and lying. Those two things are unacceptable in every/any aspect of life for people with integrity. Those who accept, or worse condone, behavior that requires cheating and/or lying have no integrity.

it's a binary thing. You either are a cheater or you're not. You either have integrity or you don't. Period.

 

[308pirate]

I personally believe that NDs should be automatic match DQ..

They are in every other shooting sport I'm familiar with...……….

 

[VVhoisJohnGalt]

Nope. It's apples to apples.

Hiding a hit is cheating and lying. Those two things are unacceptable in every/any aspect of life for people with integrity. Those who accept, or worse condone, behavior that requires cheating and/or lying have no integrity.

it's a binary thing. You either are a cheater or you're not. You either have integrity or you don't. Period.

Sorry I wasn’t more clear in my explanation. Wiping is part of the game of paintball. The local fields with guys running Tippmans etc...well wiping in those situations is just silly and unnecessary. And maybe you are referring to that type of game. But at the national tournament level in the sport it is accepted part of the game. It’s just like holding in football, offsides in hockey, walking in basketball...people do it. If they get caught they get a penalty. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be able to name a single pro athlete that has never had a penalty much less never “cheated” on the field. It’s not binary. Some people “cheat” without even realizing it.

If breaking the rules in a sport is cheating and lying then everyone that plays any sport does not have integrity...including a 10yr old kid playing soccer that broke some kicking rule.

The reason it’s apples to oranges: an ND can kill someone...holding a WR 5 yards down field to prevent a TD isn’t going to kill him.

All I was trying to do is explain how small violations in PRS rules can have HUGE impacts on someone’s life. We are playing a sport with guns. It’s very serious.

 

[308pirate]

But at the national tournament level in the sport it is accepted part of the game.

Tells me all I need to know about those who play that

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Tells me all I need to know about those who play that

It's been a while since I was serious about paintball but back then, wiping was definitely a fact of life in tournament ball.

And it also led to players overshooting their opponents (i.e. shooting them continuously until they called themselves out or were covered in paint), multiple shots in the face/mask/back of the head, lighting someone up from close range when bunkering them (again often mostly in the head/face), bonus balling, etc.

I don't know if it still is, but back then it was pretty much standard practice to overshoot and bonus ball (shooting someone even after they call themselves out), because there was enough wiping in tournament play that you ended up assuming everyone was doing it.

If you know there's a good chance your opponent will cheat, when given the chance you shoot the living hell out of him to make sure he either has more hits than he can wipe or that he's in enough pain he just quits.

Rec ball and local tournaments (similar atmosphere to PRS club matches/club sponsored pistol matches, etc) were often night & day different, and depending on the field or the group (especially if a lot of guys were shooting mostly pump guns) there could near zero-tolerance for wiping & cheating of any type.

The above is why I ended up shooting mostly rec ball with people I knew, until I ended up moving away and giving it up completely.

 

[Centuriator]

The four laws of gun safety will save your life or others in case of a ND. Here's why, you may break one of them resulting in a ND, but most important of them all: keep weapon pointed in safe direction will save your butt every time. I've been around NDs in many training classes, but thankfully the idiot who did not keep his finger off trigger until ready to shoot at least had the muzzle pointed in safe direction and the rounds went into a berm or into the ground. I've seen a full auto ND, dude put a string of five shots, right into the dirt.

I have seen a genuine mechanical AD, the firearm slam fired, but again, muzzle pointed in safe direction.

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"Always keep muzzle pointed in safe direction" ... you can frack up on the others, but this one WILL prevent death or injury.

Nobody handling firearms should ever assume a ND will never happen to them. It is not a matter of "if" but simply when, so religiously follow the "safe direction" rule, as much as you follow the rest. If it is going to happen, if that muzzle is in a safe direction, you will frighten the crap out of yourself and everyone else around you, but you won't kill yourself or anyone else.

 

[308pirate]

The four laws of gun safety will save your life or others in case of a ND. Here's why, you may break one of them resulting in a ND, but most important of them all: keep weapon pointed in safe direction will save your butt every time. I've been around NDs in many training classes, but thankfully the idiot who did not keep his finger off trigger until ready to shoot at least had the muzzle pointed in safe direction and the rounds went into a berm or into the ground. I've seen a full auto ND, dude put a string of five shots, right into the dirt.

I have seen a genuine mechanical AD, the firearm slam fired, but again, muzzle pointed in safe direction.

Gun Safety | Four Rules of Firearm Safety

Learn Gun Safety at Hunter-ed.com. The four rules of firearm safety are the first step to becoming a certified safe hunter. Sign up free. Study free. Pay only after you pass.

www.hunter-ed.com

"Always keep muzzle pointed in safe direction" ... you can frack up on the others, but this one WILL prevent death or injury.

Nobody handling firearms should ever assume a ND will never happen to them. It is not a matter of "if" but simply when, so religiously follow the "safe direction" rule, as much as you follow the rest. If it is going to happen, if that muzzle is in a safe direction, you will frighten the crap out of yourself and everyone else around you, but you won't kill yourself or anyone else.

+1

More importantly than DQ'ing someone for lighting one off unintentionally is for PRS and NRL to figure out some protocols for rifle handling that will facilitate not flagging someone when doing administrative handling.

Unfortunately it's much easier to come up with those protocols with handguns than it is with long guns. No sport that I've played in has gotten it completely right but every one of them has elements that the PTB at PRS and NRL should go review first hand. That means opening a dialog with, and observing higher level tournaments of, the people who run other rifle and shotgun sports to learn what they do and see if anything they do can translate or be adapted to PRS/NRL to help shooters handle rifles safely.

Shotgun racks used in clay shooting tournaments are an example. Not really practical for true field matches, but certainly practical for many of the matches that are run on less acreage, and especially useful in matches held on square ranges. They make keeping a rifle pointed in a safe direction easier during admin handling than staging them on the ground.

 

[Centuriator]

I'm not familiar with the protocols and rules in every gun shooting sport, but it would seem to me that clearing and making a weapon safe by locking open the chamber, having it visibly inspected by a buddy before you even think of moving it pointing downrange and off the line, would be required.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I'm not familiar with the protocols and rules in every gun shooting sport, but it would seem to me that clearing and making a weapon safe by locking open the chamber, having it visibly inspected by a buddy before you even think of moving it pointing downrange and off the line, would be required.

The problem is with things like PRS, there is so much movement, one is never sure if something changed with the condition of the rifle between stages.

I’d be perfectly fine with a device that replaces the actual bolt. No bolts allowed in the rifle until on the line about to start the stage.

 

[todd]

The problem is with things like PRS, there is so much movement, one is never sure if something changed with the condition of the rifle between stages.

That is the Stage RO's job - to keep an eye on the shooter and ensure the bolt is open and back during all transitions and movement for safety, and making sure the magazine is removed and chamber flag is inserted before the rifle leaves the line. If you're talking about moving the rifle from stage to stage at the range, that's why we have chamber flags - so you can tell at a glance the condition of the rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

That is the Stage RO's job - to keep an eye on the shooter and ensure the bolt is open and back during all transitions and movement for safety, and making sure the magazine is removed and chamber flag is inserted before the rifle leaves the line. If you're talking about moving the rifle from stage to stage at the range, that's why we have chamber flags - so you can tell at a glance the condition of the rifle.

Agreed. Except half the guys out there utilize chamber flags properly. And some of it is a legitimate concern.

Down here it gets up to 107-110 some days and the heat index is 115+. Your barrel gets too hot to touch without even firing a round.

Many people are a bit weary to stick a piece of plastic in a chamber that was already that hot and then just sent 10-15rnds down it. I have no idea what the melting point is for the flags, so I have no idea if it’s a valid concern. But I can easily pick out several people between stages at every match I’ve ever been to (club or national) that either don’t have a chamber flag at all, or don’t have it in properly.

So, it’s not as simple as saying “that’s what we have chamber flags for.”

 

[todd]

So, it’s not as simple as saying “that’s what we have chamber flags for.”

Ultimately we are responsible for our own actions, and safety is everyone's responsibility, not just the RO or the MD. Most of us are pretty deep in our heads after a stage, and if a squadmate reminded me that I forgot to put my flag in, I would be grateful they were watching out for me. I don't have a problem gently reminding someone they don't have their flag in.

But I digress, the main topic of this post was ND's, not chamber flags.

 

[shoots100]

So, it’s not as simple as saying “that’s what we have chamber flags for.”

It's So simple, even a cave man can do it.
If your the RO, you don't let the shooter leave the line without making sure the chamber is clear, magazine removed and a chamber flag somewhere in the action to impede the bolt.
That's your ONLY Job as the RO.
If you can't handle that, let someone else RO.
If the RO is somehow distracted, the rest of the squad is there as backup, no matter how hot, wet or whatever other circumstance the weather is that day.
You see something, say something, even if it's on another squad.
That's what should be told at every shooters meeting before a match.
If a douche bag gets their panties in a Bunch, let the Match director know and let them deal with them.
I'd rather be thought of as cautious, rather than regretting not saying anything and someone else gets hurt or killed by said douche bag.

 

[556ARs]

It doesn't need if the bullit is getting the right people!

 

[556ARs]

.

 

[mmlook]

Unfortunately, No. It's not the ROs only job. The biggest desire to have ROs right now is for the purposes of continuity of stage brief and scoring. While they are spotting impacts no one is watching the shooter or the butthole that is getting ready to shoot and is flagging people. Kind of the root of this thread. I think the best coa that has been laid out in this thread is that the RO foremans the stage and squad. He pretty much has to spot but he should appoint folks to watch the shooter and help run the stage/ squad.

IMO, and im pretty sure any USPSA, idpa, 3gun competitor or NROI certified RO would agree.

That’s a match organization problem that needs to be addressed.
The main RO should never take their eyes off the shooter, while the gun is loaded.

Spotting and scoring should be handled by someone other than the RO.

Hopefully in the coming years, more/all matches will adopt either reactive targets, like poppers or dualing trees.
Or flashers.

That way there’s no need to have RO’s call impacts.
Or even spotters, it’ll be clear as day to everyone.

 

[308pirate]

Down here it gets up to 107-110 some days and the heat index is 115+. Your barrel gets too hot to touch without even firing a round.

Many people are a bit weary to stick a piece of plastic in a chamber that was already that hot and then just sent 10-15rnds down it. I have no idea what the melting point is for the flags, so I have no idea if it’s a valid concern. But I can easily pick out several people between stages at every match I’ve ever been to (club or national) that either don’t have a chamber flag at all, or don’t have it in properly.

So, it’s not as simple as saying “that’s what we have chamber flags for.”

NRA rifle shooters have been sticking pieces of plastic into their rifle chambers for decades in every state including those where it gets into the triple digits during match day. Their rifles get pretty damned hot after the rapid fire strings, and even the slow fire strings are pretty fast if you're shooting them like you should to take advantage of conditions.

The "plastic melting" concern is a bullshit excuse from prima fucking donnas who think they're too special to follow basic safety protocols already in use in several other shooting sports for decades.

 

[mmlook]

Have you shot a PRS match? They way you word that and draw a linear comparison makes it sound like you haven't. I've shot a fair amount of IPSC, IDPA, and some 3G. The fact that the range/ bay goes cold and everyone scores after the shooting is over allows for the one RO in that squad or Bay to worry about scoring after he has watched the shooter. Those two critical functions happen at different times. That's why there isn't a linear comparison between the two.

yes

i’ve shot both multiple times

although USPSA/IDPA/3gun RO’s call the alpha/Charlie/Delta/Mike, after the range has been made safe.

they are not the one running the ipad, and they are not the one asking the shooter to approve the score.
and at no time do they take their eye off the shooter while the gun is loaded

i’m surprised you are defending the fact to make/keep PRS shooting less safe than all/most other shooting sports

to me, if there’s a safer way to do it, we should.

rather than bickering about how it’s different

like I said, if we change to
reactive targets and target flashers.
there’s no need for the RO to spot

 

[Mormegil87]

At local matches with only one RO. The RO's only responsibility should be to watch the shooter, that's it. Other competitors can spot and score. If the MD does not like the idea of having competitors spot/score then they need to recruit more ROs.

At the national level matches it's on the MDs to ensure there are enough ROs on staff, one to watch the shooter and one to spot and score.

 

[lash]

Don't confuse refuting your simplistic comparison with defending or advocating for unsafe competitions.

Having bias in scoring and recording scores has been the original requirement for non-shooting ROs as PRS has developed. In the past matches were all self-RO'd. Back to the ASC days before PRS was a thing. Just like our club matches are. And the local 3G and USPSA matches are. Safety, scoring, and spotting are accomplished by squad-mates. I think the logic chain, that got us to this point, is if it all works self-RO'd then why can't it for national level matches? "Oh, well because we've had cheaters at self-RO'd matches, and some squads don't shoot the stage the same as others. Well we could fix that by having non-shooting unbiased ROs." And now here we are. With more jobs than one RO can perform. I'm not saying it wasn't flawed logic, it just is what it is. And the takeaway is what the original purpose of the un-biased RO was.

We self RO at our club. But the older experienced shooters have to squad-mom every time. It really does get old. I am constantly herding cats. I have turned into a shooting coach for most of the match. It's appreciated by the newer shooters but sometimes I just want to go shoot. And it's not like I need to volunteer more to "give back". Myself and one other do the vast majority of steel maintenance, purchasing, logistics, money managing. We (the club, a group of about a dozen experienced shooters that also shoot national matches) all rotate MD'ing throughout the year and we squad-mom every match. Because myself and my buddy live closest to the range we end up helping the other MDs set up and clean up in addition to the admin tasks we volunteer to do. It's consuming. On the topic of squad-mom'ing, I pulled a new guy aside and verbally counseled him on his second and last warning for minor safety procedurals last match. He came up after the match and thanked me. We also match DQ'd a guy during that match. Safe and responsible MD'ing and RO'ing is happening on the reg out there. The accusation this thread makes that PRS(to which we are no longer affiliated) is just a bunch of asshats out there self promoting in an unsafe discipline kind of pisses me off. Kind of a ignorant and obtuse brag from a bunch of novices that only know what they read on the internet. I guess it prompts me to become argumentative and confrontational.

I have a theory about human nature. I think we are always searching for a simple self-righteous solution for any problem. This becomes an issue with some problem sets that are too complex. Some problems are multi-faceted and can't be solved quickly with one simple solution. Every time someone trys to give an input in the form of a solution, it causes an unexpected output in the problem set. Like a rubix cube. I think with these types of problems you have to set the conditions and think three and four steps ahead. Just blurting out one simple COA isn't going to get it done.

I can relate to this 100%. Only the clubs located in the most active places are able to operate otherwise. It’s easy to burn out the most dedicated and active shooters if they are willing to help. It’s also part of the challenge for MDs in smaller club regions.

You put inexperienced ROs one the line and people will take advantage or complain about inexperienced ROs. Try and find enough volunteers to do only scoring or spotting. Good luck. Run a regional PRS match with only squads scoring for each other and see if someone(s) don’t try to pad their scores with their friend’s help. Hell, they even try it with us experienced ROs, trying to wear you down at every stage, hoping to catch you when you are off, to gain that extra point, earned or not.

Reality is a bitch and never lets up.

 

[shoots100]

At local matches with only one RO. The RO's only responsibility should be to watch the shooter, that's it. Other competitors can spot and score. If the MD does not like the idea of having competitors spot/score then they need to recruit more ROs.

At the national level matches it's on the MDs to ensure there are enough ROs on staff, one to watch the shooter and one to spot and score.

Exactly and I don't see whats so complicated about what an RO's responsibility are when the Line goes Hot ?
An RO doesn't spot, line up shooters or keep time while a shooter is on the line.
If the appointed RO on your squad at the time isn't doing their job, get another RO or stop the squad and get the MD.
If you don't want to bitch about having to be a squad mom, then try teaching the newbies how to RO and/or other duties while there.
We don't coach at a match either.
You want a coach, go to a class.
No one sits down on my squads, but no one is getting yelled at or hounded a lot either.
We're there to have a good day at the range, not boot camp, but slackers won't be tolerated.
If your not shooting, on deck, reloading mags, your RO'ing, spotting, timing or calling the shooters line.
If all those duties are being handled, then you just wait your turn to take over when the need arises.
We all take turns at picking up brass too.
It takes a few stages for everyone to wake up and do their share of the responsibilities, but most will do it if shown the ropes.
It does get old at times, but that's the price I'm willing to pay to be able to leave the range that day without any casualties.

 

[shoots100]

Only in Trap.

 

[doctnj]

Hi,

Let me preface this comment/questions with---I have never coordinated nor run a competition event, much less a series, but business is business and growth is growth.

Bottom line the PRS/NRL/Etc etc are a Business, plain and simple. Just as in ALL other industries; a work place injury can not only shut that particular job down, it can shut the business down. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc is going to have to come to the realization on BEFORE it is too late.

Now to expand on the influx of new shooters as doc and ruebenski mentioned...and what to do with them/how to handle them. This is something the PRS/NRL/Etc needs to address ASAP, IMO. As a business you do not want to turn down customers but at the same time you do not want to loose company due to an injury. So the "Series" is going to have to look at regulating the process of a new shooter entering the "deep" end of the pool.

This can be done in several ways, such as the Series can hold (aka pay for the hosting) new shooter orientation/walk through events at the local club level. New shooter gets his registration card stamped at the successful conclusion of the orientation. Single stamp allows him to compete in a single day event, Double stamps allow him to compete in 2 day event.

For example:
You cannot get a hunting license without a Hunters safety education course, so why should the Series allow someone to compete at a dynamic event without attending some kind of course.
You cannot just go direct to the LRI (Long Range Interdiction) course in the SEAL pipeline...you have to prove yourself in the other shooting courses first.
You cannot go direct to the Masters in PGA...you must "prove" you can play the game at xzy level first.
You cannot get a drivers license without proving you can parallel park , so shouldn't you have to prove you can safely maneuver yourself and your rifle under a specific time constraint.

Long story short....There needs to be some regulation from the SERIES level before the series is leveled via injury.
Yes I know my suggestion is not a fix all but it is a conversation starter

Sincerely,
Theis

My buddy just got back from a 1 day match I think in iowa this past weekend. Apparently there was a brand new shooter there that for the most part refused to use a bag. During a prone stage he got up started arguing with the RO and then walked over to his rifle standing next to it. Either a round was already chambered or he chambered one and reached down to trigger while at side of his rifle and sent one into space!!! I asked him for this dudes name because we need to go on full blast mode on an idiot like this. I don't want to get killed. They told him to get his shit and get out. But this POS could walk on to any range and do it again or worse. I'm not the blast kind of person but this guy is unfit to be on any range. As soon as he finds out I plan on publishing it. My buddy army sniper. He and I both were trained in military but PRS is a whole different ball of wax. Yes I agree there should be a short orientation and basic skills check out before anyone new is allowed to compete. Now any ameture that finishes gap grind is gtg in my book. They should hand out a competence card there.

I shot lights out in Oklahoma although as bad as I shot I would have preferred a DQ lol. Anyhow I was on my knees loading and going over dope for stage. All of a sudden the RO at the stage immediately to my left started screaming the kind of scream that let's u know something is terribly wrong. Three times he yelled mag out bolt back getting louder faster and more panicked every time. It was dark so I couldn't see but it's highly likely he was moving off the barricade with a possibly loaded rifle. Maybe even pointed at me. In my opinion he should have been gone right there. The final example came later on that evening. A guy had his rifle over his shoulder like he was on the farm. As he turned and took a step onto the stairway to the tower he muzzled half a dozen people at the bottom. They were clueless.