New Air Force Training

[kilo7788]

I am off to Langely AFB VA to test and develop a new rifle/carbine qualification course. Well all Army and Marines that want to rag on me for being AF go ahead. But this course is intended to bring Airman up to a more proficent level of operation, tatctics and marksmanship closer to that of the Army and USMC. I dont think that it will ever be to that level but at least they are trying. I mean they are going from a 1 day course to a 2 day course. Being able to learn the rifle in 2 days and get proficent is not gonna happen but it is still alot better.

Just wanted to hear appropriate thoughts on the face the AF is trying to fix the problem.

 

[chris914]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

I am just a regular that spent some time on the pond pushing around aircraft for Uncle Sam but I would think in the limited time you have available, the focus would be on hitting the target not so much with the tactics. I have done more than a few classes with various instructors (to include LAV and Ken Hackathorn) at this point. Even with the most up to speed folks, the tactics aspect will be much slower going.
I appreciate the task you have in front of you. It is a challenge to say the least.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

My thought is that the best criticisms will come from the course participants.

It's one thing to pass out a questionnaire when everyone's looking to get out the door, it's another to have a discussion period just prior to the test portion.

Base it on covering/recovering/better explaining any issues participants feel they could be more clear about just prior to the final test. While you're at it, bounce back with asking for ideas about how the particular point could be better covered as part of the actual course.

The idea that they come, get talked to, do some stuff, then boogie back home is just exactly the wrong way to do it.

I'd tell them that each class handles this differently, according to what they bring with them, and how much they want to take back home with them. Their own active and imaginative participation is the catalyst that makes the program work.

Greg

 

[angsniper]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

I went thru the EMP 1 and 2 with the 2nd MAR/DIV and I can say that it was excellent training. Absolutely no comparison to what the USAF calls training.

 

[popeyecop]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Well thats about time they change the AFQC. What they need is to be able to shoot real distance and not simulated distance.

What they need to do insted of shooting at a simulated 300m target at 25m is find the real estate and actually shoot 300m. I know that its hard to find the ranges to shoot on but im sure there is some other military bases near AF bases and would be able to go there and shoot.

I hope it's going to be a good course.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Most people in the Air Force are unlikely to need the level of proficiency with firearms which is appropriate to the Army and Marine Corps.

Having a better first-level course is doubtless a good thing.

They really ought to devote a week to the carbine and at least a couple of days to the pistol, but I doubt that will happen. One of the benefits of the higher level of training would be enhanced morale as well as a reminder that the purpose of the Air Force includes not just hauling trash but also killing people and breaking things.

Air Force personnel who are more likely to encounter ground combat should of course have a higher level of training than that introductory course. Whether the Air Force will handle that itself or outsource that to other entities is a more complex issue.

Aside from special operations units, the weaknesses of all of the services is in the lack of regular proficiency training.

We have all heard the truism that marksmanship is a perishable skill. Well, it is.

 

[DAFAR]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

You know the Navy is just finally getting a little better as well. Back in 1996 one of my side jobs on the boat was small arms instructor. I always tried to teach my guys a little bit more than the basics I did not care if we were on a submarine you never knew where fate was going to deposit you, and I felt that if you were in the Military yyou better dam well know how to shoot. Anyhow, one day during a training session I actually had my CO come in to monitor for a little while aftr about ten minutes he stands up and says "what are you teaching these guys all this stuff for their not cops, we are in the Navy and it's not our job to know how to shoot". It is pretty hard to get your classes attention and respect back after a comment like that. But my how times change . Over the last 7 years I have recieved at least 4 emails from guys I trained who found themselves in hot spots in Iraq and Afganistan(yup submariners in the Desert) ssaying thank you for what I had taught them, the ultimate was from one guy who told me he hd just returned alive because of me, they had gotten ambushed on a convoy run, as they tried to break out they had to leave their vehicles and run for cover. he said as he moved towards a house with his berrata in his hand a guy popped out of the doorway right in front of him. He said they as he had started moving everything ran trough his mind and remembering how I taught him to hold his pistol helped him to point shoot and drop the guy before he got hit.

Needless to say it made all my efforts worth while, so to all of you intructors out dealing with administrative BS keep you r spirits up and do what you know is right

 

[Photon]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

I just read up on the Marine Corps Times that seven Airmen tried their hand at the CFT (that's the Marine Corps' Combat Fitness Test), and actually did well. They claimed that they wanted tougher training.

I'm down for Air Force getting tougher training, it kind of makes me sick seeing someone wearing USAF gear and looking all nasty. Knowing that they couldn't defend themselves in a fight, weapons involved or not, is kind of heinous. (Forgive the generalization, I know there are some motivated USAF dudes out there that could take down a bear with a plastic spoon)

The training should be, at minimum, readily available to the motivated Air Force personnel that wish for more. It would definitely bring up the level of camaraderie and espirit de corps. Plus, when they say they are currently serving in the military, we don't have civilian-types second guessing their legitimacy.

Here is the article from the Marine Corps Times, it is an essential read for this thread, as it uses the same arguments about tougher training as we could use for better training (marksmanship):

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/03/marine_airforce_cft_030810w/

 

[kilo7788]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

One of the main reasons this is coming up is due to in lieu of missions where jet mechanics are running convoys with the army. They need trainging that is not avail. Soon it will be. It is not what it needs to be for lenghth but there is better material.

Funny thing about the sub guys. Just was talking to a scout trainer on a plane today about him training a bunch of submariners convoy ops. Talk about out of your element.

 

[Sgt.Henry]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Good News! Please tell me that the Security Forces guys are going to step it up as well! This has been needed for a long time.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

It's for everyone. It's got more consentrated markmaship a lot of cqb and night fire.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

What we had firearms training during basic training when I was in the USAF... it was pathetic. Anything's got to be better than the 22LR modified M-16s we used for inital qualification in the 1980s....

 

[SavageStag]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Let's be realistic here, when are we ever going to use this training. I don't know why the AF has this warrior mentality now.
It does sound like fun training, but I can't think of the last time I made "contact" while pushing my toolbox out to a jet.

 

[SigSense]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

There's no time for shooting in the USAF, as we spend all of our focus on Computer Based Training (CBT). The Chief of Staff USAF said that CBT's and unnecessary training would go away......so the next year it increased! My favorite training is "Trafficking in Humans", followed by the SERE 101 online.

 

[SigSense]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SavageStag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's be realistic here, when are we ever going to use this training. I don't know why the AF has this warrior mentality now.
It does sound like fun training, but I can't think of the last time I made "contact" while pushing my toolbox out to a jet.
</div></div>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This

 

[MBrady]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Whereas the AF as a whole might not need this training from an EOD point of view, current standards are lacking. Right now we have contracted our weapons training to these guys Threat Management Group
They have teams that come to us and we attend pre-deployment training where they also teach. The way I see it CATM is already stressed and not every base has the facilities to make this training happen.
Does everyone need it? Probably not and it would be a logistical nightmare. Should we totally rule it out? If you need it, it should be made available, if not then pass me your ammo allocation and let me shoot

 

[cram1903]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Great news,
I'm looking forward to seeing what the new AFQC will be like. This has been long overdue.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kilo7788</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am off to Langely AFB VA to test and develop a new rifle/carbine qualification course. Well all Army and Marines that want to rag on me for being AF go ahead. But this course is intended to bring Airman up to a more proficent level of operation, tatctics and marksmanship closer to that of the Army and USMC. I dont think that it will ever be to that level but at least they are trying. I mean they are going from a 1 day course to a 2 day course. Being able to learn the rifle in 2 days and get proficent is not gonna happen but it is still alot better.

Just wanted to hear appropriate thoughts on the face the AF is trying to fix the problem.

</div></div>

In the 1980s, when I went through Basic, we had TWO DAYS with the M-16.... and those were modified to shoot .22LR.

Anything has got to be an improvement...

 

[angsniper]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training


[/quote] <span style="color: #3333FF">In the 1980s, when I went through Basic, we had TWO DAYS with the M-16.... and those were modified to shoot .22LR.

Anything has got to be an improvement... </span>[/quote]

Just curious when that was. I went to basic in 88 and we fired 556 not 22. I always did live fire with 556 but I have heard of units that did not. Also heard some units using the FATS for M9 training, including initial training! Too scary!

 

[lane223]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

When I went through USAF basic back in 79'we had the 22 adapters. POS. They malfunctioned more times than not, and the fix was to pour (not a few drops but POUR) LSA into the chambers. Needless to say we all had our faces covered in oil, which of course is quite a shock and hardship for us Air Force dudes. Later at my first base some of us got to qualify with the .38spl. Well a possum made it's way on the range and we turned lit it up. The instructor was so pissed that he failed all of us and we had come back again (which is not a bad thing).

 

[M14Msgt]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

I went thru AF basic in 1983, and it was 1-2 days (cant recall) with the M-16, modified for .22. Yes, it was a joke.

 

[boom2336]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

Well as a PMI in the Marine Corps I feel the best most important thing for shooters is fundementals. You have to have a strong base and master these before you can start expanding your training. If you look at recruits in boot camp the spend like 1 week learning bone support, natural point of aim, trigger control, muscular relaxation...ect ect. Then we spend a week just sitting in positions. Hurting and aching contortiting ourselves into positions that for 98% are completely foreign. Then it is off to the range. And I can tell you from experience that if someone has paid attention and learned everyhting and commited it to memory then my job coaching on the range is done. They will hit black all day long.They might need a nudge or reminder here and there but for the most part on auto pilot.

Now I know that the USAF will not incorperate this into basic training since every airmen is not a rifleman. But if you want your Airmen to actually learn how to shoot and not just waste brass on the range then you need to have a Grass week(or how ever many days you can allocate) and sit the shooters down and teach them the fundementals/positions. And the most important part of all this is knowledgeable instructors that actually care about teaching. If you can get this accomplished before the shooter actually steps onto a live firing range then the hard part is done. Now all you have to do is minor coaching into the black.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

The test begins on the 29th of March at Holloman, Langley, and Mt Home.

The more I have been thinking about this I belive it will do nothing for the Air Force as a whole. But it should give deploying airman a bit more for to fall back on if they need it as far as the standards that are going to be enforced. They will be more accustomed to the operation of the weapon and the extra trigger time will not hurt.

As far as the units that are good with guns (ASOS, Security Forces, EOD...)it will be more interesting than the lay down and shoot 50 rounds and you are good. Position changes, transtitions, multiple threats, failure drills are all in the course.


BOOM2336
It is true that the AF is trying to teach airman to do in a mere 8 hours what the Army and the USMC are taking up to 3 weeks on. It is still stupid but it is a start.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: angsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Just curious when that was. I went to basic in 88 and we fired 556 not 22. I always did live fire with 556 but I have heard of units that did not. Also heard some units using the FATS for M9 training, including initial training! Too scary! </div></div>

1986... they changed basic several years after I went through, to include a longer than 8 week general course.

Of course, my tech school was 12 months. -smile-

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: Nwe Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boom2336</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now I know that the USAF will not incorperate this into basic training since every airmen is not a rifleman. But if you want your Airmen to actually learn how to shoot and not just waste brass on the range then you need to have a Grass week(or how ever many days you can allocate) and sit the shooters down and teach them the fundementals/positions. And the most important part of all this is knowledgeable instructors that actually care about teaching. If you can get this accomplished before the shooter actually steps onto a live firing range then the hard part is done. Now all you have to do is minor coaching into the black. </div></div>

Well, the way it used to work is that the USAF had a policy of sending you to weapons qualification determined by your AFSC [job].

So, if you were going to be a cop of some sort, you'd go through rifle training somewhat seriously...

If you were going to be a cook, well, not so much.

The primary difference in the "old days" is that the USAF was a highly technical branch of the service, and the training was more in-depth on that side. Besides, if we had a problem that's what the Marines or the Army were for... or we'd just nuke it.

-smile-

 

[boom2336]

Re: New Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kilo7788</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The test begins on the 29th of March at Holloman, Langley, and Mt Home.

BOOM2336
It is true that the AF is trying to teach airman to do in a mere 8 hours what the Army and the USMC are taking up to 3 weeks on. It is still stupid but it is a start. </div></div>

Kilo, I completely feel what you are feeling right now. Even with the best intentions at heart, with the current course of training it is just wasting time. If you can somehow convey to whoever is managing this effort to at least allocate 5 days towards this it would be so much more bennificial. 2 days of in class fundementls of shooting/shooting positions. 3 Days of shooting. Day 1 including Zero/BZO of weapon with iron sight or optics. If optics are mounted make sure the Back up Iron sights(BUIS) get BZOed. Then move into string of fire. We will call this Familiarization(Fam Fire). This is where the airman would be closely coached to make sure that he is utilizing all fundementals and that the rifle is zeroed. Day 2 would include pre-qual. Shooting the course of fire just as he would on qual day. Day 3 would be a mirror of day 2 just for keeps.

Also, another thing that I failed to mention is the use of rifle data books. This affords both the shooter and the coach the ability to look at previous days and analyze what he/she is doing right or wrong. It tracks the Zero before wind call, during, and after wind call. It tracks each shot. So that way i.e. if in the rapid fire the shooters round are all center line but up and down this would indicate breathing control. The shooter was not using the Natural Repritory Pause. And if the coach didnt see this on the target he would see this in the book and be able to correct it before qual day. If you have any ?s feel free to message me. I dont consider myself an expert in shooting, that is the snipers forte. But I have coached many of Marines on the range and might be able to give you a little something to commit to the good ole brain housing group.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

Currently the training is written as about 11 hours from start to clean rifles. We asked to break it into 2 days and all of the schedullers flipped out.

 

[cgriff]

Re: New Air Force Training

There is a huge need for better training in the AF. I was in an engineering unit that up and decided to create an airborne runway repair team. They sent our team to a small team tactics course out in Vegas for a week. I believe JTM was the name of the company that did the training. It was amazing how much our team improved but once we got back to our unit, those skills perished because we were only able to get range time once a year for a few hours.

The AF has three diffenent levels of armour groups.
A - Security forces types that qualify every 6 months
B - Engineers I know fall in this group but not sure who else and they qualify every year.
C - Medical types qualify every 3 years.

I've seen people from all three of these groups carrying a rifle that they have never fired before on convoys with the Army in combat areas.

The AF is trying to send their people through some sort of combat skills training before deploying to learn convoy operations and to shoot at actual distance instead of 25 meter estimated range targets.

I seperated active duty after 10 years. I've been a medic in the Air National guard for 3 years now and have only qualified on the fats simulator since I've been in the guard. The whole system needs to change.

 

[Explorer]

Re: New Air Force Training

"We asked to break it into 2 days and all of the schedullers flipped out."

Cost, quality, quantity - pick any 2 of the 3!

As long as bean counters are running the nation, we will be compromising something.

I rode submarines, the arms trainig we got was little more than "this the front, point it that way". What a joke.

 

[doc76251]

Re: New Air Force Training

While your in VA give me a shout, I'm on the south side and I have a good curriculum and a place to conduct it in. I'm not above "big school" curriculum and speak all the appropriate languages.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

It is no longer A, B and C. CE, Cops and such are in A. Everyone else is in B. C is gone. And in this course everyone is held to the same scores and standards.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

Dam too late. That would have been great durin down time.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: New Air Force Training

We had an AF butter bar as our task force engineer, and he literally went from working on a base never touching a gun to venturing out into indian country to check on CMO projects. I think giving the AF some more training with guns, especially for an MOS that might see field time, is a great idea. Good luck.

 

[John Scarbrough II]

Re: New Air Force Training

The first time I worked with AF dudes they were PJ's and CCT's. They set the bar high for other Airmen to follow.

Then last May I started working with the Security Forces / MP MOS's on a regular bases at Fort Leonard Wood teaching the SRT/ MO courses. I haven't had any Navy students but plenty of Army, Marines, and Airmen come through here. As a whole the Marines shoot better, but the Air Force and Army are on about the same level when it comes to pistol marksmanship skills. Now of course these are the cops of the different branches and some are already on a SRT back at the unit but that doesn't mean they have the ammo, time, or resources to shoot and learn to improve themselves.

There are some units in the Air Force that get money for training and they are guarding some important stuff, but as a whole the pistol game the Army and Air Force is giving out needs help. We just redid our program and we are still fine tuning it, but right now students shoot a little over 600 pistol and 800 rifle in mostly 3 days out of 10 with good instruction.

For any of the Air Force guys out there looking for training go talk to your SF guys that have been through the SRT, MO, and CPEC courses and they should be able to help as long as your asking for Marksmanship info and not LE sensitive info. Another good source would be the services match team shooters as long as you approach them the right way they might be able to put the ego's aside and teach you something.

Also look up clubs in your area that shoot matches, IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, NRA. I might have got off topic but good luck with the rewrite and if you need some help from some active duty AF dudes we have two on staff as instructors here I can put you in contact with.

 

[DP425]

Re: New Air Force Training

Well, I applaud the effort! From my own personal experience, AF and Navy guys usually don't appear very comfortable or confident around weapons. But at the same rate, I've seen far too many army personnel act much the same way. Throughout the services, there needs to be more of an effort to put the hands of the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines on the weapons that COULD potentially save their lives some day.

It all needs to start with the basics (and IN Basic)--- more time simply carrying the weapons, severe physical punishments for improper weapons handling, more time going through the motions. The problem I often times observe isn't just lack of marksmanship ability, it's totally lack of knowledge, starting with safety and handling. It's a core problem, and they need to address it at the very base. Yes, trigger time is severely suffering as well for most troops (even trigger pullers- yeah they/we get more shooting time, but it's still not enough- Of course, you'll have a hard time convincing me it's EVER enough).

Just my thoughts anyway.

 

[John Scarbrough II]

Re: New Air Force Training

Good point and to do that means rewriting the FM's that show things wrong. Take the MCI Pistol Marksmanship for example some of the info is decent like reloading the pistol and what position the weapon is in but then a few pages later they have a picture of someone racking the slide the wrong way.

The Army's FM is outdated and to some Drill Sergeants even if they know better they have to teach by the FM example is when showing prone shooting with a pistol the picture is awefull. the shooters elbows are on the ground arms not fully extended and the pistol is way to close to the shooters face.

We have a Air Force Combat Arms Instructor in this class and he said they are limited in what they teach and that he has to teach the AF way thumb over thumb grip. Now since he has seen the light as to better ways to do things and the why behind it he will start on his team changing things and keep track of how much more accurate his guys get and the speed at which they can make hits.

If nothing else your efforts change one person and it makes them a better shooter like some have already mentioned then you did your part.

If it is going to start at basic (which I agree it should) then the FM's need to be updated and the DI's, DS's and whatever the other branches call it need to be properly trained and not just yell at the recruit's when they themselves don't know the answer.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: New Air Force Training

You can never get enough training and you cant ever get enough trigger time!!

Ask, seek and get all you can because you may never know when you will need it and its better to have done it and be able to put it to use then to need the training and die because you didnt get it!!

Groove on and good luck!!

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

That combat arms instructor needs to update himself. We have been teaching the non-overlaping natural point of aim for a very long time now. And it is going to be mandatory in the new pistol course that is coming out. As well the AF is dropping the weaver stance completely for the iso.

 

[boom2336]

Re: New Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NOMAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can never get enough training and you cant ever get enough trigger time!!

Ask, seek and get all you can because you may never know when you will need it and its better to have done it and be able to put it to use then to need the training and die because you didnt get it!!

Groove on and good luck!! </div></div>

Nomad, you are correct. You can never get enough trigger time. But sometimes our trigger time get ridiculous. On one shooting package.

Per Shooter: 3500 rnds 5.56 1800 rnds 9mm

Another range i myself put 1200 rounds of m118 through my EMR.

The annualy at the range Tables 1,2 rifle and tables 1 pistol.

And I aint even Recon or a Hog. I cant imagine what some of those guys go through. Well actually I did fire more rounds through my EMR then most Hogs will fire in a few years but you know what I am saying.

 

[boom2336]

Re: New Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Scarbrough II</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If it is going to start at basic (which I agree it should) then the FM's need to be updated and the DI's, DS's and whatever the other branches call it need to be properly trained and not just yell at the recruit's when they themselves don't know the answer. </div></div>

As far as USMC boot camp and DI's are concerned bout the only thing that they have to do with the rifle is drill. The weapons handeling and fundementals are taught by the PMIs and range coaches. But you are right it does need to start there and it needs to be done correctly

 

[stk]

Re: New Air Force Training

SF just changed to. Switching to a move shoot and communicate type training. Supposed to replace AFQC and TRQC.

 

[boom2336]

Re: New Air Force Training

I am not sure what AFQC or TRQC is, guessing rifle/pistol qual courses but.... before I want to put someone through the Shoot, move, communicate I want to make sure that they have the basics mastered. Not saying that the Security Force guys arent trained, but with the talk of this ne AF Training it sounds as though the airmen will have the move and comm part down but maybe lacking in the shoot portion.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

That is what this whole thread is about.

 

[John Scarbrough II]

Re: New Air Force Training

Sim rounds are good but they need to be used for the right reason they dont or shouldn't replace real bullets for accuracy and proper follow through.

Boom - I remember the PMI's in boot camp 96 wasnt that long ago. Still they are limited to what is in the FM or some sort of POI or lesson plan so I doubt they teach whatever they want. If that is outdated then so is what they teach was my point. We have SME's (MCIWS, MCMAP, MPI)teaching recruits but not all services do.

 

[GBMaryland]

Re: New Air Force Training

Just the add to this... as I was in a different AF at the time.

I seem to recall the combat communication and nuke specialist used to train seriously with weapons, compared to even USAF security police folks.

As for the PJs, a few posts above, those guys are second to none. (But you all know that...)

 

[boom2336]

Re: New Air Force Training

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Scarbrough II</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sim rounds are good but they need to be used for the right reason they dont or shouldn't replace real bullets for accuracy and proper follow through.

Boom - I remember the PMI's in boot camp 96 wasnt that long ago. Still they are limited to what is in the FM or some sort of POI or lesson plan so I doubt they teach whatever they want. If that is outdated then so is what they teach was my point. We have SME's (MCIWS, MCMAP, MPI)teaching recruits but not all services do. </div></div>

Well when the PMIs gave us the classes all they taught was the Basics. Fundementals. And in my opinion thats all that needs to be taght to someone who has never ever shot a rifle in their entire life. And for someone like that to, after 1 week of classes be able to put rounds in the black at 500 yds consistently speaks multitudes. The guys who gave us the more in depth tips and tricks were the range coaches. They were more laid back , off the record style.

When I went to PMI course all it consisted off was the memorization and regergitation of the fundementals. Learning how to give POI's and classes. I learned all of my more indepth knowledge sittig on the ready line with my 5 relays guiding them in the right direction. It was always a a gift when the range OIC would make his way down the line. Especially if you had a problem shooter. Every range OIC I talked to was a wealth of shooting knowledge.

Ok ok enough rambling from me.

 

[sticshooter]

Re: New Air Force Training

glad to hear the AF getting into this.i was an airframe mechanic on f 15's,16',ac 130's and 141's from89'-94'.joined the air force because of my love for combat aircraft but dis liked they we only shot twice a year,once with 9mm,once with m 16.i've always said airmen needed more combat training just in case the BIG ONE ever came.by that i mean toe to toe with the big boys,china,russia.air bases are HUGE targets and if they get over run,everybody on base needs to be able to defend,not just SP's and MP's.

 

[kilo7788]

Re: New Air Force Training

Air Force

 

[holster72]

Re: New Air Force Training

i agree we need to get more into marksmanship training. i've been in almost three years now and the only time i've shot was during basic. i'm coming due on it soon (only because im going to korea) I'm sure its still a joke, shooting at small targets at 25 yards to simulate 300? what a crock. i know we have to room to make a full range (barksdale) but i dont ever see it happening.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: New Air Force Training

I totally agree that the AF needs better combat arms training. I'm retired after 21 years and can tell you as a shooter, the "training is a joke. I entered service in '84 and we did have to shoot the .22 conversion kits. Thank god they dumped them. I did not retrain until three years later when I was heading back stateside. My next training session was another seven years. Yeah, someone at Ellsworth wasn't doing their job scheduling folks. I shot the Mtn Home range because of my assignment to Kunsan. The instructur there didn't even know the curriculum (or the weapon itself). At first break, I explained to him the mistakes he was teaching and asked that he just stick to the curriculum for the benefit of the students. He didn't so I blistered him on the end of course critique.
Anyhow, my biggest complaints when it came to the training was that the time gap between traing was too big, instructors generally passed every student because their EPR depended on it (you know, the whole "if a student fails, then it is the fault of the instructor mentality") Simulated trainig at 25 meters is a joke. And qualifying with less than 100 rounds is not teaching fundamentals.
If training is to actually teach, then the course needs to be at least a week long and students need to fire at actual combat ranges. I look at combat arms training no differently than other fam training. I was sent TDY numerous times for one, two and three week fam courses. What makes combat arms training LESS important????