Another straight wall cartridge for the states that mandate them for rifle use deer hunting.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
New AR cartridge the 400 Legend
- Thread starter tomme boy
- Start date
Another straight wall cartridge for the states that mandate them for rifle use deer hunting.
7.62x39 bolt face. Gonna be interesting.
the tribe has issued me with a citation. (Edited post)
the tribe has issued me with a citation. (Edited post)
Last edited:
I thought 6.8SPC used a different bolt face?
ETA: looking at the specs, it uses the .422 rim diameter of the 6.8SPC, so not need to worry about x39/6.5G/6ARC bolts.
What line of projectiles do you think the designers had in mind when designing this? Actual .40/10mm pistol bullets?
ETA: looks like "yes" it's running, presumably, 10mm pistol bullets. I presume it's designed around projectiles built for the 10mm as the velocity would take softer/thinner jacketed bullets designed to work at .40cal speeds and blow them up.
Last edited:
They messed up the crimp on the first ammo. They roll crimped it and the round was too far into the chamber and was pinching the bullet so it would not release. It was blowing out cases on every shot. And they listed the bullets as 0.357" and people were pissed off because it was actually a 9mm 0.355" bullet and they could not not use their 357 bullets like they wanted.
I wouldn't think so.
Between the 450 and 350 pretty much all bases are covered. But I guess everyone is looking for that happy medium
357 size bullets will work but not with Winchester brass. They work with starline which is way better than the Winchester garbage anyway. The Winchester brass is too thick and won’t chamber with bullets bigger than .356” in a saami chamber but starline will with .357” bullets.
And there is where you are wrong. Starline brass is made wrong. One it is thinner, thats why you can fit the larger bullet in SOME chambers. The web is made too low and you can turn the brass into a belted case in a AR that uses a coned breach face. Win brass is made exactly the way it is supposed to be.
I have been loading for the legend since day one of its release. I have them in an AR and in a Ruger American Ranch bolt action. I have shot everything from a 85gr to 290gr in one. I know what it can and can not do. While I have never destroyed any brass like below, I know several that have when this first came out as there was no data to use. I used 357 max data at first. And it was safe as could be.
I have a few 350s and even had a bolt gun built before you could buy a factory rifle. I have never had an issue in any of my ARs or bolt guns with starline brass and 357 sized bullets. The “belted magnum” is from either loading too hot, too much crimp or trimming the cases too short. With high pressure rounds that headspace on the case mouth it is very important to keep the case length as close to chamber dimensions as possible. Now back to the original discussion, the 400 legend looks like it will be a great round and I will get a barrel made as soon as Reamers are available. Hopefully mos-tek with be making ar barrels. This looks like it will be a nice short range bear cartridge with low recoil.
I was thinking the same thing on pressure. Pretty dumb since the 6.8/Valk bolt will hold up to at least 52k reliably. 55,000 for the 350 Legend! Think I'll pass on the 400L.
I do like that it will result in brass that (for the first time) is .422 bolt head with essentially a Grendel body size. If they necked this case to .224 & called it a 223 Legend they'd have a winner IMO.
6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC use different bolt face diameters.
6.5 Grendel, 6mm AR, .224 AR, 6mm ARC use the same bolt face and bolts.
6.8 SPC and .224 Valkyrie use the same bolts.
I would think that hard cast gas checked and XTPs will be the only high speed options unless it catches on and manufacturers produce projectiles with thicker jackets
How close is it to 6.8 Basic brass that has been available for years? How much more would the case you're describing get you over a Valkyrie?
It's not close to the 6.8 basic. The new 400L appears to be made on a case that's never existed.
Valkyrie capacity is about 31gr h2o & with the .422 bolt size is saami rated at 55,000,
6ARC (short Grendel) capacity is 34.9gr h20 & with the .441 bolt size rated at 52,000
400L brass appears to be rebated with the stronger SPC bolt size of .422 combined with the added capacity from the .441 Grendel body size.
So you'd gain 3,000 pressure + 3.9gr capacity. My imaginary 400L - 224L wildcat should be able to run good speeds with powders that would not fir in a traditional Valk, Think H4350!
I think you could get + - 100fps gain in an 18" Super Valk AR over the std Valk. Along with a stronger bolt & extrctor.
I'm basing the above on my experience with the Valkyrie. I formed 24 Nosler brass into 224 valk. It has a rebated rim using a 223 bolt, but when formed had + 1 full gr capacity. With that extra 1 gr, I was able to stuff in 27.5gr of H4350 with a 88 eldm. The factory Hornady 88's run 2502 from my 18" barrel. That 27.5 H4350 load ran 2725. So imagine adding almost 4gr. I'm probably being to conservative with my guess above.
I would think most pistol bullets would just come apart even the bonded stuff. The 350 factory loads all seem to have rifle bullets in them.
I've never tested that bullet at 2,400 fps, admittedly, but at 1,300 fps they can open up all the way like a starfish. Pretty sure they (and most other .40 cal pistol hollow points) would just fragment on impact when fired at rifle speeds.
On the other hand, maybe the typical flat nose 180gr FMJ would flatten out (not "open up" but just flatten) at those speeds. Of course, they do have the b.c. of a marshmallow....
FWIW…..
Here is what remains of a 10mm 200gr XTP launched at 2200 from my muzzleloader after impacting the lung area of a 100lb whitetail doe. No exit.
While it did kill the deer, it grenaded on contact. They’re going to have problems with penetration with pistol bullets at the advertised velocities. This cartridge may well be the perfect platform for the monos.
Here is what remains of a 10mm 200gr XTP launched at 2200 from my muzzleloader after impacting the lung area of a 100lb whitetail doe. No exit.
While it did kill the deer, it grenaded on contact. They’re going to have problems with penetration with pistol bullets at the advertised velocities. This cartridge may well be the perfect platform for the monos.
FWIW…..
Here is what remains of a 10mm 200gr XTP launched at 2200 from my muzzleloader after impacting the lung area of a 100lb whitetail doe. No exit.
While it did kill the deer, it grenaded on contact. They’re going to have problems with penetration with pistol bullets at the advertised velocities. This cartridge may well be the perfect platform for the monos.
Ooh, I know! Maybe they'll introduce it with a groundbreaking new 1:2 twist rate barrel - that'll do the trick! At least it'd keep people from wounding deer with high velocity pistol bullets, since they wouldn't make it to the deer...
Maybe because it had nothing to do with anything and was a stupid comment.
If you think I’d rather have a 357 AR because it “sounds bigger” then you’re completely out of the loop. Do some research on what the 357 AR is - it’s like the 350 L but without the designed-by-committee stupidity.
Mos-Tek just announced they are tooling up. They are well known in 350 Legend circles, I imagine their 400 will do just fine.
I think Winchester and others have NO interest in the 400 Legend. 7 months after the introduction there are no guns, no barrels, no brass, no dies and not much commitment from any mfgs. Seems to be a big flop!!
Last edited:
Winchester Power Point Ammo 400 Legend 215 Grain Soft Point Box of 20
Decades of success on whitetail and big game has made Winchester Power-Point truly legendary. The time-proven dependability is offered in a wide range...
www.midwayusa.com
10mm (.400 or .401") - 240 Grain WFNGC — Bengal Bullets
240 Grain Wide Flat Nose Gas Check sized to .401.” Meplat is .3” and nose length is .256”
www.bengalbullets.com
That is my preferred style of straight wall cartridge bullet. At $0.30 each, a good candidate.10mm (.400 or .401") - 240 Grain WFNGC — Bengal Bullets
240 Grain Wide Flat Nose Gas Check sized to .401.” Meplat is .3” and nose length is .256”
I tend not to think of straight walled cartridges as long range cartridges, but if they can perform at 300 yards and deliver accuracy, I’m good.
I agree, but one thing that I think I’ve learned, having tried to push the 350 Legend in a lever, is that levers don’t like the rebated rims of the AR based cartridges. That’s why Henry and Remington teamed up for their answer, the .360 Buckhammer.
That’s right. If you’ve never heard of it, raise your hand.
I had a Winchester converted to 358 Winchester. It worked just fine with 308 brass
The ballistics are pretty close to the same as the old 35 Remington, which has killed tons of deer and other animals. The 35 Rem is a better cartridge design IMO anyway though; we wouldn't have any need for this new one except for goofy straight-wall-cartridge laws in a couple states.
Not everything needs to be a high velocity magnum, and the ballistics on this are more than adequate for killing just about anything that rifle is intended to kill.
So how many more new cartridge cases are going to be introduced that reloading shooters will not be able to get the components for...manufacturers can not keep shooters supplied with cases needed for those recently introduced cartridges, and many older cartridges, are almost nonexistent on the store shelves, anywhere...even the common brass cases are not available, at the local sporting goods stores.
This is absolutely nothing new....Winchester did the same thing st the turn of the last century!
Remember the .351 self loading and the larger
.401 Self load cartridges. Just like the 350 legend and the 400 legend. The 351 self loading helped the cops in the ambush, by putting many holes in the bodies Bonnie & Clyde.
Then Winchester had the straight wall 38-55 and the big 405 Winchester would probably match anything the 360 Buckhamer could manage....New? Hardly, Winchester has been here long ago, marketing very similar cases. Teddy Roosevelt declared the 405 Win African "lion medicine" in his Win lever gun.
With modern powders and better steel alloys these old cartridges would do pretty much the same. Blackpowder era design was letf behind for more modern case design. Everything old is new again...but they will kill deer, same as they did back then, by the truck load.
Remember the .351 self loading and the larger
.401 Self load cartridges. Just like the 350 legend and the 400 legend. The 351 self loading helped the cops in the ambush, by putting many holes in the bodies Bonnie & Clyde.
Then Winchester had the straight wall 38-55 and the big 405 Winchester would probably match anything the 360 Buckhamer could manage....New? Hardly, Winchester has been here long ago, marketing very similar cases. Teddy Roosevelt declared the 405 Win African "lion medicine" in his Win lever gun.
With modern powders and better steel alloys these old cartridges would do pretty much the same. Blackpowder era design was letf behind for more modern case design. Everything old is new again...but they will kill deer, same as they did back then, by the truck load.
Since none are long rang cartridges, I'd suggest the 450 Bushmaster, with a 16 twist, and 16" barrel it functions with 185 copper 45 ACP to to .458" 502 gr bullets resized to .452. Subsonic power with 502 gr bullets or super sonic velocity power with all bullets. Or short range shot shells if you hand load...or a multi- ball load.
Over 3000 ft/lbs of energy on some handloads. Lots of short range power for most anything with 502gr bullets shoot through most any animal you are likely to encounter.
The AR platform, light, handy 16" barrel, calapseable stock, versatile, 3000 ft/bs on tap, subs and supers, have it your way ..modular...but I like the bolt on limbsaver recoil pad for the 502 supers. And it's a fun destructive plinker pussy cat with cheap bulk purchased pistol bullets, it's cheap to shoot. I bought 2 lots of 500 pcs of brass...and have about 600 dirty cases to tumble clean.
If ya don't reload, you are missing only the whole world, ..in shooting versatility.
Similar threads
