Yah I ran this a few times, just because those fluctuations are there. I think it’s worth it, at least for me... I’m still learning what to expect so the extra data helps me see that.
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New Berger 6.5mm 144gr LRHT
- Thread starter NovaHunter
- Start date
Yah I ran this a few times, just because those fluctuations are there. I think it’s worth it, at least for me... I’m still learning what to expect so the extra data helps me see that.
Picked up 100 of these to try as I just swapped barrels so seemed like a good time to swap bullets.
Lapua brass 1x fired
R16
CCI450
28” Bartelin 6.5CM loaded to about .010 jump and that was 2.92 COAL for my rifle
Loaded 3 shots for every charge weight to get more data than the single shot provides.
Was shooting pretty fast not really looking at groups just shot paper because I was curious about POI shifts
Saw no pressure signs for the entire string
What do you guys think?
Lapua brass 1x fired
R16
CCI450
28” Bartelin 6.5CM loaded to about .010 jump and that was 2.92 COAL for my rifle
Loaded 3 shots for every charge weight to get more data than the single shot provides.
Was shooting pretty fast not really looking at groups just shot paper because I was curious about POI shifts
Saw no pressure signs for the entire string
What do you guys think?
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I’m really thinking these guys don’t like as much jump as I originally thought(6.5cm). My damn chamber is cut to deep to stay mag length even without a binder plate. I’ve run these at 1 match so far, (48 thousandths jump) .3-.4, 5 round Moa, they did very well. They handle the wind very well also. Most of what I can compare it too would 142 smks, and it’s about 20% less wind hold. So far I’m very pleased with the round.
Hmm that is quite the difference from when the Hybrids were first released and Bryan suggested .015 but said it did not matter and that was pretty much my experience because I shot them all the way from .010 to .150 in three different 6.5 creeds and noticed little to no difference in groups with the 140s.
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I figured I would run them 10-20 thousands off the lands. Like you I have had good luck with the 140’s.
I just ran mine this weekend. 6.5 CM, 28" Bartlein, RL16, CCI BR2 (better results over Feds), Peterson Brass (LRP).
Very similar results. Although I was seeing primers just starting to flatten at the 2920 range. I am going to run the 2840 to 2870 range again. Better SD's and easier on components. 50 FPS is not worth the effort, not alot of difference at a mile in my calculator. I also tried N560 and H4831 SC, I was hoping for more but they landed around the same speed running 44-44.5 grains, so going back to RL16.
My first real "ladder" test. From my results what would you suggest? I was thinking 42.3gr but also 41.9gr could be just as good. As far as the order of operations if I was going to try them at like 500yrds to see grouping at distance should I do that first or do a little seating depth testing first? Was thinking .005 .020 .040 and .120 - just because I have personally run the 140s at .040 and .120 before and had great success. I know some will say its a large jump but ain't nobody got time to be testing 5 shot groups at .005 or less change. My end goal is just 0.5MOA with sub 8 SD for ELR.
@dntworry I would just shoot the 42 load. I don't buy into the graphing method. Too many variables, esp if your load process is not 100% spot on with everything you do. I have gone to shooting until I see signs of pressure then backing off 2.5 grains and shooting in .2 grain increases for 1 grain. I just did 4 rifles, they all landed in that area. It is a lot faster method. Bryan Litz told me about it at Shot Show this year. I reviewed previous loads for multiple rifles, and they landed in that area too. I am running these at .025, it is where I do all my load development. If I have to do a seating test, I will start at .010 and go to .035 in .005 increments. I load a bunch at .010 and use a Lee hand seater at the range. I rarely have to adjust seating though. Your 42 group looks nice with a good ES/SD. I would run it. Shoot it at distance, get more chrono data as you go too, but that looks like the load.
I am game for anything that means less rounds used for load development. Using that method where did you end up with these?
I am not done yet, but looking like 41.6 @ 2865 is going to be it for me. I only shot 41.8, I was testing H4831sc and N560 at same time. RL 16 produced best results. 41.8 of RL16 produced a decent group @.68" edge to edge, running 2877 with ES of 15. I will back of a little more and run a test from 41 to 41.8. All the powders I tested produced good groups between 2850 and 2870 and again on the high end around 2920, but that is running hard, harder than I would like. Barrel life, brass etc.
Interesting data point on the first time chrono'ing the 144 Hybrid:
.260 Rem 26" Bartlein with TBAC 30P-1 and Magneto V3 on the can.
5 rounds of 140 Hybrid, H4350 42.5 gr., virgin Lapua, CCI BR2, 0.030" off lands = 2795 fps average
5 rounds of 144 Hybrid, H4350 42.5 gr., virgin Lapua, CCI BR2, 0.030" off lands = 2795 fps average
I had chrono'd the 140 Hybrid load previously. The average was only 6 fps slower, so that checks out.
I didn't expect the 144 Hybrid to be running the same velocity.
.260 Rem 26" Bartlein with TBAC 30P-1 and Magneto V3 on the can.
5 rounds of 140 Hybrid, H4350 42.5 gr., virgin Lapua, CCI BR2, 0.030" off lands = 2795 fps average
5 rounds of 144 Hybrid, H4350 42.5 gr., virgin Lapua, CCI BR2, 0.030" off lands = 2795 fps average
I had chrono'd the 140 Hybrid load previously. The average was only 6 fps slower, so that checks out.
I didn't expect the 144 Hybrid to be running the same velocity.
Same rifle and set-up as listed in the above post except 0.040" off the lands = same die setting for the 140 Hybrid.
Wanted to try the load on once fired brass, so once fired Lapua, FL sized with 1 thou bump, annealed, trimmed...the works.
3 rounds each at 100.
Charge Average ES SD CTC
42.1 2779 11 5.7 0.274"
42.3 2794 16 8.2 0.251"
42.5 2801 7 3.6 0.192"
42.7 2811 16 8.7 0.303"
42.9 2825 37 20.8 0.320"
All had a common POI. I've settled on the 42.5 load, and will be checking a 10 shot string for ES SD.
Wanted to try the load on once fired brass, so once fired Lapua, FL sized with 1 thou bump, annealed, trimmed...the works.
3 rounds each at 100.
Charge Average ES SD CTC
42.1 2779 11 5.7 0.274"
42.3 2794 16 8.2 0.251"
42.5 2801 7 3.6 0.192"
42.7 2811 16 8.7 0.303"
42.9 2825 37 20.8 0.320"
All had a common POI. I've settled on the 42.5 load, and will be checking a 10 shot string for ES SD.
2.960” seems to be the average. I get a few plus or minus that. 2.995” is touching the lands. This is in a .260 Rem with around 0.145”-0.150” freebore. I seem to be 40-50 thou longer than most 6.5CM. I’m running in AW mags as well.
Tried to get these to shoot . Tried several powders, seat depths , didnt seem to matter. wouldnt group for shit , nor would the 140 hybrid. Tried the 140eld and 143 eld and they shoot cloverleafs. go figure.
6.5 slr , 26 in barrell 1-7.5 twist.
6.5 slr , 26 in barrell 1-7.5 twist.
no I havnt tried them . the 140 eld shoot so good I'm gonna stick with them for now.
the 144 would have been nice because of the bc. I'm just wondering what the true bc of the 140 eld is gonna end up being.
I really wanted the 147 to work when I tested it, but I hit pressure way too soon. I had pressure at 41.5 and 42.0 of H4350 at 2720 fps. The 144 lets me get the bullet up out of the case. Since I'm shooting a 260, a fair amount of the bearing surface is down in the case with the ELD line of bullets. The Hybrid line works out near perfect with the bearing surface ending at the neck shoulder junction.
That 5-15 thou jump that Berger recommends is pretty on point for accuracy. I had trouble getting that sub .4 group at mag length. I was getting that “clover-leafing” also. I am now seating at 10 thou jump barely fitting inside a binderless MDT mag. I’ve done exclusively R16 so far, (can’t find 4350??
) and I am still sitting at 42.3 grains, MV 2844, 1:7 twist 6.5cm @ 23”.
) and I am still sitting at 42.3 grains, MV 2844, 1:7 twist 6.5cm @ 23”.
10 shots of that load only so far. 5SD 14ES across the 10. Wish the ES was a little lower ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Velocity? and those are great numbers. it only takes 1 shot to throw the ES out of whack, so you have to look at it all. That SD is great and I bet if you looked through the shot list it is only 1 or 2 shots that threw that off.
prc guys use these yet? Super interested in them but worried about the coal 2.95 I have now for my max for my mags. Thought I read the ogive is further forward on these compared to the 147s?
Lot to lot measurements are always different with Berger’s, in my experience.
Interesting info!
I do PRS matches also, using my 6.5 PRC with a great muzzle break to stay on target.... Have been using Hornady Match. But now reloading again. After 40+ years.
I've got 200 of these 144g Berger bullets coming in next week.
I have H1000 powder that I was thinking of trying out. It's works good with the 143 and 147 Hornady bullets. I'm thinking I'll start with the same amount of powder as the Hornady bullets.
I may see how the .015 jump works as a starting point...if they fit the Ruger mag...!
Ideas?
**Thanks for any input.
Very impressive bullet. About to order some.
Has anybody shot them at distance yet (beyond 500), any photos of a waterline that shows vertical dispersion?
The main claim from Berger is less than 1% BC variation, 2x better than before, and it would be great to confirm if vertical spread from a well developed load is significantly less.
Bullet makers are in a technology race right now, and projectile design has progressed more during the past 18 months than the previous 18 years, which is very good for all of us.
Has anybody shot them at distance yet (beyond 500), any photos of a waterline that shows vertical dispersion?
The main claim from Berger is less than 1% BC variation, 2x better than before, and it would be great to confirm if vertical spread from a well developed load is significantly less.
Bullet makers are in a technology race right now, and projectile design has progressed more during the past 18 months than the previous 18 years, which is very good for all of us.
Don’t have any “hard data” but I ran them out to a mile this past weekend using the MV from my Magneto and the BC on the box and had to make 0 elevation adjustments. Had no “fliers” every single miss was spot on elevation and just an error in wind. All 3 of the shooters we had went 3/3 at 1mile with my setup, it was almost too easy.
I would love to do a mile and more! But our range is 1100 yards.
I can say with the Hornady 4DOF the bullets are Spot On at 1100. I can hit our smallest hanging target 3 out 4 four times. The miss is only due to shifty winds. Elevation is perfect!
As with any round at long distance you do NEED accurate conditions data! 4DOF is great! The Axial Form Factor adjusts for the bullets specific Drag Model which is more accurate than BC. BC changes with several fluctuating factors. The Drag Model doesn't! It's much more consistent! GIGO!!
The Berger bullet is great! Extremely tight tolerances compared to others.
I'm considering trying the the newer lighter 105 as well.
Enjoy!!
.667” BTO
143.98 to 144.10 gr
1.410”-1.417” length
much shorter shank than my 142SMK
143.98 to 144.10 gr
1.410”-1.417” length
much shorter shank than my 142SMK
Thanks for the reply. Weight range (0.12 grain) is narrow, which is a good sign.
Will order 50 and measure about half of them and calculate SD. Then shoot them at 600 and check vertical.
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BTW: Watched Bryan’s Shot Show video, and there he claimed a 0.5% BC variation is very typical for these new pointed bullets. Berger folks say elsewhere that if Berger advertises a spec of x they aim to achieve half of that. Impressive!
It seems these bullets are not “pointed” in the traditional way where the tip is trimmed and them closed to a smaller diameter via a pointing die. Some clever new invention that puts controlled hydraulic pressure on the bullet to close off the tip. Detail photos show the angle of the tip is nearly identical to the shape of the nose. No abrupt change in angle like the 150 SMK.
It seems these bullets are not “pointed” in the traditional way where the tip is trimmed and them closed to a smaller diameter via a pointing die. Some clever new invention that puts controlled hydraulic pressure on the bullet to close off the tip. Detail photos show the angle of the tip is nearly identical to the shape of the nose. No abrupt change in angle like the 150 SMK.
The round plate is 1000yds during load development, Reloader 16
The deer is 1760 yds. Circled in red.
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Trying these out in a new 6.5x47
5R Bartlein barrel, no turn tight reamer with .163 freebore - started at .010 jump into .060 at .010 increments. 1/4" target dots.
.040 jump gives me a COAL of 2.797 - with a cartridge base to ogive of 1.983 using the new SAC 6.5 bullet comparator.
Meplats are all perfectly even (no angled trims etc.) with a smaller opening than the 140's - there is a slight sudden angle around the entire circumference at the end of the nose to the tip, which is also extremely consistent - pretty easy to tell which is a 140 vs. 144 if you got a couple bullets mixed up.
Very little deviation in bullet weight, usually right around 140.02 to 140.04 for the majority, with an occasional 140.06 or 139.99x
Static safe charge of 38.8 with H4350 (only chronoed 1 round, 2nd shot through the barrel was 2675)
I'll do velocity testing next at .040 jump and see how fast I can get them moving.
5R Bartlein barrel, no turn tight reamer with .163 freebore - started at .010 jump into .060 at .010 increments. 1/4" target dots.
.040 jump gives me a COAL of 2.797 - with a cartridge base to ogive of 1.983 using the new SAC 6.5 bullet comparator.
Meplats are all perfectly even (no angled trims etc.) with a smaller opening than the 140's - there is a slight sudden angle around the entire circumference at the end of the nose to the tip, which is also extremely consistent - pretty easy to tell which is a 140 vs. 144 if you got a couple bullets mixed up.
Very little deviation in bullet weight, usually right around 140.02 to 140.04 for the majority, with an occasional 140.06 or 139.99x
Static safe charge of 38.8 with H4350 (only chronoed 1 round, 2nd shot through the barrel was 2675)
I'll do velocity testing next at .040 jump and see how fast I can get them moving.
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Nice looking bullet! Have 100 on order to try out in a 6.5 CM.
If you are so inclined, could you measure the base to ogive of 10 or so bullets? Will do the same once my order arrives.
Would be nice to know bullet consistency...
Thanks for taking the time.
1.5 thou ES is pretty impressive. Backs up Berger’s BC consistency claim.
Finalized the load at .040 jump and 39.8gr of H4350
6.5x47L - 27" Bartlein 5R 1:8 twist with an average MV of 2809
Wide jump node held at .030 to .060 with .040 still being the tightest and shooting bugholes.
Powder/velocity node from 39.4 to 40gr of H4350 (approx. 2784 to 2820 fps)
Started opening up at 40.1 through 40.3gr (approx. 2836 to 2848 fps) with 40.2 being atrocious; 40.4 tightened back up, but 40.6 and 40.8 (approx. 2866 fps) were also terrible.
6.5x47L - 27" Bartlein 5R 1:8 twist with an average MV of 2809
Wide jump node held at .030 to .060 with .040 still being the tightest and shooting bugholes.
Powder/velocity node from 39.4 to 40gr of H4350 (approx. 2784 to 2820 fps)
Started opening up at 40.1 through 40.3gr (approx. 2836 to 2848 fps) with 40.2 being atrocious; 40.4 tightened back up, but 40.6 and 40.8 (approx. 2866 fps) were also terrible.
Very nice to hear that the Berger 144’s shoot well with a long jump. Have a few hundred on order, but Midway is taking their sweet time getting it delivered... I have seen several bullet/rifle combos shoot well at a tiny jump like 5 thou, and at large jump (like 35 to 60 thou). Minimal jump often forces you to ‘chase the lands’, which is an unnecessary complication.
My 142 Sierra SMK load (hoarded bullets from very many years ago) shot well in my MPA 6.5 CM at 0.140”. Yes 140 thou of jump! That really was a surprise, never would have tried that long a jump. The article published by Cal Zant gave me the idea to try it. His statement that your lands move forward by about 1 thou on average every 16 shots was a bit of an eye opener! I really don’t want to load a box of 100 with 5 different jumps.... This game is already complicated enough.
