New Cartridge by Vortex, 6.5 BC
- Thread starter TxWelder35
- Start date
As soon as I have to fireform brass to have what I need, I would rather not. It will never gain widespread use, and will always be a niche cartridge. Now 7 Blaser magnum looks more interesting. Needs to come to the U.S.
Maybe we have different definitions of "widespread", but spend some time in hunting forums, and you'll see how "niche" the Sherman rounds are.
let me tell you the last time i saw 7SAUM on the shelf
or 22 creed
or 6br
or 6xc
or 338NM
The Sherman's are popular on LR hunting forums, but is it still a wildcat? For me its in the same boat as the Gap 4s.
You just listed a bunch of niche cartridges......they might be plenty of people in this community that use them, but that does not make them widespread in the shooting and hunting community as a whole.
Other thing to note is the popularity of the base cartridge, and the ease of conversion. The Creedmoor family has tons of components available, so while 22 CM is a wildcat I would never need to fear components being hard to find. It is also a quick conversion as there is no major shoulder forming. 7 SAUM is limping along because of the enthusiast community, but outside of us it is dead.
Did Vortex announce this so people would lose their minds? Gorilla marketing?
Well thats an odd and arbitrary qualifier. I can find you some pretty niche-y rounds that have factory ammo and some very popular options that dont have much for factory ammo.
I guess I should have stated in a normal market, but walk into 10 guns stores and see what is on all the shelves. You would normally find 30-06, 270, 6.5 CM, 22 lr, 223, 9mm 45 acp........the list goes on, but specifically in 7mm what would you expect to find? 7mm rem mag, 7mm-08, 280 rem.....maybe some weatherby mag? Not 7 SAUM or 7 SS or any other wildcat. I am looking for something that gains enough traction for many large companies to make components for. Think 6.5 CM, 6.5 and 300 PRC as examples of cartridges that have are on ammo shelves and have multiple large companies making ammo and brass for them. That is widespread.
Wildcats can become factory rounds and be super successful (243 win) or even outshine the parent in the case (22-250). I have a hard time thinking this will happen with the 7 SS, and the 7 SAUM already died once.
I would suggest the popularity has a lot to do with good marketing and that saying about a fool and his money.
Many shooter will flock to buy the thing they perceive as the latest and greatest, regardless of its real advantage or lack there of.
Everyone always says that its marketing, if it was only marketing it wouldn't still be popular 12 or so years later. We've seen lots of cartridges come and go in that time frame, yet the Creedmoor is still thriving. Hornady's real secret is in creating a whole system that works. Intelligent case design is the start, but having a rifle that is twisted for the long heavy bullets and having ammunition on the shelves (in normal times) that's optimized for long range shooting is the real reason they've been successful.
Remington is the king of designing really good cartridges (6mm Remington, 260 Remington, 7mm RSAUM, etc.) and then screwing the pooch by not producing the right ammo, not putting the right twist on barrels that are chambered in said cartridge, or not even chambering guns in said cartridges. Before the Creedmoor got popular, how many rifles in 260 could you buy over the counter that had 1-8" twist barrels? How many 260 factory rounds were available loaded with 140+ grain bullets?
Remington is the king of designing really good cartridges (6mm Remington, 260 Remington, 7mm RSAUM, etc.) and then screwing the pooch by not producing the right ammo, not putting the right twist on barrels that are chambered in said cartridge, or not even chambering guns in said cartridges. Before the Creedmoor got popular, how many rifles in 260 could you buy over the counter that had 1-8" twist barrels? How many 260 factory rounds were available loaded with 140+ grain bullets?
Add to that reloading component availability. Hornady has stuff from close to day 1. Remington might kick some stuff out once in a while.....and even then the data is limited as they do not publish load data.
Way less than 7 Saum, 7 SS....ect. Lapua, ADG, and Hornady all make brass. Dies available from multiple die manufactures as standards (Forster, Redding, Hornady, lee,....). Factory ammo from Hornady, once someone else big jumps on board with factory ammo it will be locked in. Widespread, maybe a little early for that. Way easier to jump into than 7 SS.
Hornady as a company has a huge incentive to create a new cartridge.
They make Dies and reloading components.
They make brass
They make ammo
They have a huge marketing and R&D departments dedicated to doing exactly that.
What does Vortex have? How does creating a new cartridge help Vortex in any way?
Does it fill a need? Solve an issue? Improve on one of the 19 existing 6.5mm designs?
Whats the point?
They make Dies and reloading components.
They make brass
They make ammo
They have a huge marketing and R&D departments dedicated to doing exactly that.
What does Vortex have? How does creating a new cartridge help Vortex in any way?
Does it fill a need? Solve an issue? Improve on one of the 19 existing 6.5mm designs?
Whats the point?
With common hunter bullets 7 saum fits a short action really well.
168 classic hunters are in the lands before a standard AICS mag limitation.
It died commercially because Remington sucks.
Now that we have 2.95 mags 260 is a dream and creedmoor is relegated for poofters.
Maybe you don't realize how easy it is to get into Sherman cartridges? Adg brass, Hornady, Forster, whidden, LE Wilson dies, readily available reamers at many shops (all 3 I talked to had them in inventory). Not sure what else you need?
I swear I'm not trying to argue, I just don't follow your logic.
The podcast was a bit painful to watch to be honest with two guys that just don’t seem to be deeply knowledgeable talking like they know.
I watched the video, as painful as it was. It amounts to rich kids have time and money to burn and want to be cool by being different and make our own custom cartridge with our name on it because well... we can.
What purpose does it serve other than vanity?
Well......
I applaud the initiative for constant improvement on the existing......
But new cartridge unveils in the hunting market do not blow my skirt up. I mean how long has the 6.5x55 swede with "junk" bullets been killing moose.....mooses......mise.....whatever......ha.
I suspect others on this rifle marksmanship focused forum feel the same. It's not that difficult to kill an animal with a rifle.
To each their own.
Another day..... another reamer.
Ern
I applaud the initiative for constant improvement on the existing......
But new cartridge unveils in the hunting market do not blow my skirt up. I mean how long has the 6.5x55 swede with "junk" bullets been killing moose.....mooses......mise.....whatever......ha.
I suspect others on this rifle marksmanship focused forum feel the same. It's not that difficult to kill an animal with a rifle.
To each their own.
Another day..... another reamer.
Ern
They are available to the enthusiast, but not the general public. No factory rifles, ammo, ect. I am not saying they are hard to get into, I am saying I do not see them becoming the next 6.5 CM of the 7mm world. 7 SS will not come close to 7mm rem mag in popularity.
Before the video launched I was talking about a new cartridge in 7mm that would mimic 7mm rem mag without the belt. That is a happy medium (as seen by the cluster of factory and wildcats in that area). The rem mag case design could just use a refresh, but I would like to see something that is widely supported in factory rifles and ammo. I reload, but not all my friends do. It would be nice to be able to give them a modern design in the very efficient and cost effective 7mm caliber for a long range and hunting round. It also is easier to get whatever you want when everyone makes stuff for it.
I dont think anyone would argue Sherman rounds will reach the level of 2 of the arguably top 10 most popular cartridges ever made, but that doesnt mean theyre a niche or not widespread (again, maybe we just define "widespread" differently). Doesnt seem like Richard designed those cases to usurp the mainstays - they are meant for enthusiasts who reload and appreciate/desire the most efficient cases possible.
As far as your wants for factory performance rivaling the 7mm mag; whats wrong w/ the 7 mag if you need factory options? If you need more, get a 28 Nosler. The argument that belts are somehow bad is unfounded - especially to the crowd that only shoots factory rifles w/ factory ammo. (if you want better performance in a much more efficient case, get a 7 SS
)Hahaha, this reminds me of when friends ask me to load them some ammo and I tell them to grab a 6 pack, come over and WE'LL load some ammo. Explaining what each little tool does and why.
One problem with 7mm rem mag is barrel twist in factory rifles. Limits the fun stuff for longer range. if 7 PRC ever became a thing, Hornady would spec it with a 1:8 or 1:8.5 twist barrel. That would open the doors to the 180+ bullets in factory and reloads. they also would set it up for the heavy bullets, which is what long range would focus on anyhow. I am asking for a lot at once, but I can dream.I dont think anyone would argue Sherman rounds will reach the level of 2 of the arguably top 10 most popular cartridges ever made, but that doesnt mean theyre a niche or not widespread (again, maybe we just define "widespread" differently). Doesnt seem like Richard designed those cases to usurp the mainstays - they are meant for enthusiasts who reload and appreciate/desire the most efficient cases possible.
As far as your wants for factory performance rivaling the 7mm mag; whats wrong w/ the 7 mag if you need factory options? If you need more, get a 28 Nosler. The argument that belts are somehow bad is unfounded - especially to the crowd that only shoots factory rifles w/ factory ammo. (if you want better performance in a much more efficient case, get a 7 SS
My definition of widespread mainly looks at commercial availability of the entire system. You are looking at number of people and availability of components. Different goals have different definitions, one is not better than the other.
Exactly. I have two of those but never seen em on a shelf in my life. I know lots that shoot them though!
so you're saying that 9.5 twist 7RM factory rifle isn't the best option in 7mm? cause the twist sucks for precision loadings and only focuses on light hunting bullets
i'd be curious to see data for BR variant versus 6.5 creed/223/308 fired in the USA in a year
Correct. Most won't shoot far enough for it to matter as the 160 range does well for hunting, but the 180-200 grain range adds a lot of capability for target work.
so 7RM is no better than 7SS/7MAX then cause you need a custom barrel and you're reloading
So what's the warranty like on these rounds? Like... if I don't get .5 MOA or better, do I get to return them for a replacement "no questions asked"?
Is this forum going to turn into one of the other long range hunting forums, where every single time a cartridge discussion comes up someone has to chime in that they should get a Sherman? You guys bag on Hornady or Vortex for tweaking cases that already exist and calling it their own, yet you think the guy that rips off PO Ackley walks on water? All of the improved stuff was done in the 60's by PO Ackley, Warren Page and some other guys, except the SAUM case, cause it didn't exist yet. If we're going to bag on Hornady or Vortex or whoever for ripping off previous designs, let's at least be consistent and realize that the whole industry does it. And for the love of god, can we stop acting like the improved cases are the best thing since sliced bread?
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He’s not wrong.You may be convoluting customer bases at that point. Most factory 7mm rem mag shooters dont give a crap about heavy for caliber bullets. They like their Core-Lokt or Partitions to do golfball sized 3 shot groups at 100 yards to go out and get their 2 elk/yr - what youre essentially asking for is a custom spec'ed rifle from the factory. I think Browning has been doing this to an extent w/ the Nosler rounds, and maybe Weatherby? But to get factory ammo mfgs to change their recipe of old rounds (especially anytime in the next few years now) will be a tough ask.
If hornady does a 7 PRC or 7-300 PRC, those may hook, but again, theyre not releasing anything note worthy new anytime soon now.
I hate new cartridges that aren’t already mainstream and thus readily available. The 6.5 Creedmor made it to that level. The 6mm Creedmor is the only ammo on shelves right now which means nobody made or bought the rifles and I doubt it’ll hold up too much longer. Plus it’s amazing how few PRS shooters use it, instead opting for other 6mm reload variants.
You can hunt almost anything on earth with a 30-06, not to mention all the others, so we don’t need anymore hunting rounds. That’s a given.
I’d rather see Vortex call the NRA and tell them to grow some balls. Hell if half the proceeds of those rounds went to fighting for 2A for reals, they’d be the only round I buy hence forth.
You can hunt almost anything on earth with a 30-06, not to mention all the others, so we don’t need anymore hunting rounds. That’s a given.
I’d rather see Vortex call the NRA and tell them to grow some balls. Hell if half the proceeds of those rounds went to fighting for 2A for reals, they’d be the only round I buy hence forth.
Considering today’s market, the Creedmoor is something of an anomaly. It has lasted 12 years. It seems that in these times, everytime a new round is brought out, it seemingly kills a popular older round. (Which may be just as useful). I am thinking that long term is measured in months rather than years much less decades.
The 300 Win Mag, .308 and most handgun rounds are excepted.
The 300 Win Mag, .308 and most handgun rounds are excepted.
Started taking elk with a 6.5 in 1994.The cartridge was a 6.5x308 wildcat using Barnes 120gr X bullet. Every year since then my 6.5x08, newer Savage 260 Rem, my decades old 6.5x06 ( pre 6.5 PRC ) or 264 mag has never failed me on my elk harvest . Before 1994 I felt I had to use a 338 mag which worked but had a bit more recoil, really a lot more. Now it just sets. A 6.5 with the proper tough deep penetrating bullet, properly placed works. Has never failed me. Do I need a new 6.5 version ? Don't believe I do, but for those who want one, go for it . It seems giving a cartridge a new catchy name brings about lots of OH's & AHS, wonders for sales but does not perform over what has been around for years. In 1893 the 6.5x55 came out. Some how it has preformed quite well on moose in Scandinavia, & around the world. Yes I have taken elk with a 7 mag & even a 7x57. It came down to the same procedure, a proper bullet properly placed. A good hunting buddy took a very nice elk this season with his 30-06. No splashy name , just proper bullet placement.
