F T/R Competition New F-Class Division
- Thread starter jrbet83
- Start date
I don't see why the original intent should supersede a response to the current state and trajectory of the sport.
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A great shooter with a decent rifle will beat a decent shooter with a great rifle everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday. Having said that I did want to point out some of the hypocrisy I see with individuals against a new division. Although NO ONE has suggested gutting or changing tr, but just adding a new division. Responses like this are interesting. An individual showing up with a bipoded 6, 6.5, 7mm against a .308 is an unfair advantage due to bc and how much better they cut the wind. That statement is 100% acceptable. Now that same shooter brings up that its an unfair advantage for him to shoot against purpose built open gun with front rests, and he's being a baby/complainer, because its not the equipment and the cream will always rise to the top.
So other shooting sports, nfl, mlb, nba, nhl, nascar, nhra, indy, f1, etc, etc, etc, etc are all doing it wrong, because they modified their rules as the sport progressed. The notion, that "this is the way the rules were originally written, so they can't be changed" is ludicrous.
TR rifles could shoot in open, so why even have that class? When you get done with your response, re read it, and you just answered your own question.
Right, no one except yourself in the opening post here:
This is the part that my statement was addressing.
You must be liberal. Your really good at altering the facts to prove your point. How coming you didn't include the entire sentence in your quote? Ive always believed that when people have to lie/exaggerate to prove their point, its because even they know they are wrong. So thank you. Because the more you talk, the more it shows what type of person you are and that fact that you dont have a foot to stand on.
You really have a reading comprehension issue.
You said no one ever, ever, never, ever mentioned anything about changing FTR, when I was talking about the various calibers.
Except that you did right in your first post and I specifically stated that was the part my comment was addressing.
If you did not want to discuss gutting F-TR, why did you even bring that up in the first place, and then bring it back up scores of posts later?
You're an idiot, but I didn't want to say that. (But by your logic, I never said you're an idiot, right?)
If your interpretation of me saying that I wouldn't want to screw with a division that's already established and doing good, as that I wanted to gut TR, then I'm sorry for the confusion. Ill re clarify. I don't want to change tr or open in the slightest bit. I would though like to discuss the pros and cons of another divison that would cater to the many tactical rifles out there. Again as stated in my original sentence, trying to get fellow shooters opinions on the subject. Thank you Deny for yours, we've heard it loud and clear.
In fact at the FCNC and FCWC all of the F-TR rifles used were probably very close to equal, and the differences between the F-Open rifles across the entire range were probably slightly greater, but the reality is that in ballistics and accuracy there wasn't that much difference.
Think this through.
Issue 1 - seems to be you don't like bipods other than Harris and Atlas because the ones used by serious F-TR shooters are designed for target shooting.
I can see two minor engineering changes to my Center Shot or my Sinclair and they would fold. Yep, it would add a few ounces, but you want to bet that in 3 months someone has a folding bipod that opens up to be exactly what we shoot today, the only reason that they don't fold is because they don't have to under the rules. You make the rule, it will get built, and all you did was add $75 to $100 to the price and a few oz to the bipod. In the end it is a pointless rule.
Issue 2 - you have issue with bringing your caliber other than 308 and being made to shoot with the F-Open class.
Do you want to compete every caliber, period, in this class? What ever your caliber I hope you like running against a 7 RSAUM, because it won't take long till you'll be competing against one, again, purpose built for the class. At 1000 yards lots of things that work great at 600 get beat to hell by the windage. What caliber do you want to shoot? Look at open today, there are a few guys running something other than the fast 7s (280/284/7RSAUM/7WSM/7-300 or 7-270 Win) with 180Bergers. There are a couple of guys who are more recoil resistant playing with a 30. Yea, the odd guy out there shoots a 6.5-284 from time to time, and at 600 you see some of the BRs but at 1000 yards it's a pretty static crowd. So where do you think your class will end up. Your class is going to end up with the same "problem" that you see today. You are going to have some folks who want to run and are willing to pay to play and are going to get the $400 adjustable folding bipod and the rifle with all the advantage they can squeeze and you are going to be right back here with the same complaint.
On top of that, I have yet to see a match that did anything but weigh guns. I've never had a case checked to make sure nobody out there is not running a 308AI. Who is going to enforce all those rules that you will necessitate. The MDs that are running them today don't want to mess with it. No other class has the level of restrictions you are proposing. (maybe Service Rifle guys actually check trigger weights)
Lastly back to my point in a long ago post. Get out and run them. Volunteer, do the MD thing, and get the shooters on the line. When you get more than just 5 or 6 people at one club doing it then you go see if you can get other clubs doing it. If you get the support of the shooters then the rules can be changed, but coming to an internet forum and doing online debate is not going to change anything.
Nobody saw F-TR going to where it is today when it was drawn up a few yrs back. The equipment you see today is a result looking for a better way to do what is allowed w/i the rules. Think about what your proposed rules will end up being, and think about what it is that you really want.
And for the record, You could shoot your tactical rig now in HP Any/Any just w/o the bipod and rear bag.
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Really? Lets see I proposed a barrel length restriction, tr and open have one as well. I proposed a weight limit, tr and open has one. Although I don't mind tr bipods, it would kind of make sense to have a "tactical" class only be able to use foldable bipods. Thats just as easy to check as a 3" stock as in open. The only rule that would come down to honesty, is the scope magnification limit. But as you stated, you've never seen AI cases tested for, so its an acceptable practice to assume people are following the rules. In my experience, the shooting community is very honest. So again, don't understand why you think its so restricted. Same things checked as tr and open, and trust given to shooters that they don't go over on their scope, just like they alreay trust that shooters arent using AI cases. And to be honest, I don't really care about the magnification rule. Just listed it as an idea. For simplicity, it could easily be dropped.
And for the record, I'd have no problem shooting againist a 7mm.
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You should re-read the rules. You have some mistaken beliefs as to the restrictions of F class. The only "restrictions" on F-TR are caliber, total weight, and fired from a bipod. There is no rule regarding stocks for Open.
What do you want to shoot? You have said tactical, but that's as far as you've gone. What do you have that you want to bring to the line and not shoot against 22lb open guns?
It sounds like you are all in for the field precision rifle class that has gotten some level of approval already. Talk to the guys who did the leg work, find out what info you can collect and shoot matches and let the NRA know that there are people playing the game.
What do you want to shoot? You have said tactical, but that's as far as you've gone. What do you have that you want to bring to the line and not shoot against 22lb open guns?
It sounds like you are all in for the field precision rifle class that has gotten some level of approval already. Talk to the guys who did the leg work, find out what info you can collect and shoot matches and let the NRA know that there are people playing the game.
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Right you are, Al. I have no clue where jrbet83 gets his information, but he needs to take a break and read the existing rules before he wants to change the world. He does present a target-rich environment.
jrbet83, I admire you confidence when you say:
As Wade (XTR) so nicely explained earlier, there really is no contest between a .308 and a 7mm given rifles and shooters of the same capabilities.
A 7mm Berger 180 Hybrid will have more than 100 points in G1 BC or 50+ in G7 BC over a .30 Cal 185 Berger Hybrid and even more over the popular 185 Juggernaut. For the same weight bullet, that is HUGE; almost a 20% increase. Either you are an incredibly gifted shooter or you simply have no idea what difference that represents, especially at 1000 yards.
I am not a gifted shooter, I struggle for every point I get on the target and I'm not willing to start that far behind. If 7mm were allowed, I'd jump on it in an instant.
And just so you know, and as been said many times here by me and others, nobody is against any effort to start a new division. We gave you real world experience in rules-making and how matches are run. Keep the rules very simple and broad enough that people can innovate if they want to, keeping the discipline fresh. If you are going to have hard and fast rules, make sure they are clearly explained and easily enforceable in a real world setting. F-class has few rules; rifle weight (easy to enforce), caliber for F-TR (the scorers see what rounds go in the rifle and if checking is needed, a simple cartridge guage is all that's needed.) Any rule that limits the use of existing capabilities (don't turn your scope beyond 25X,) is fraught with danger and controversy. And you cannot limit human ingenuity, what you can do is channel it.
I don't shoot open, it's there in rule 2. I missed that one.
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One last comment here and then I think this is done. You really don't seem to know what you want other than something different, but even if you did, and you had it in a concise coherent format to present, then someone has to take it to the NRA and get it reviewed. Then maybe in a yr or so they promulgate a set of provisional rules, then you get a couple of yrs as a provisional, then they look a the results and maybe after three or four yrs you actually get a class. This is not like updating a post on a website. It takes time. In the interim I'd suggest maybe finding a competition format that is at least somewhat enjoyable and getting on the range. The NRA shooting formats do not change rapidly. It took yrs to get Service Rifle to allow detachable carry handles. Think about that. Something as simple as an A2 style detachable handle to make a flat top Service Rifle legal, it just happened in the last yr or two.
It is easy to come here on the WWW and type some words on a BB, it takes a whole lot more commitment to actually make something happen. Take a look at the Field Precision Rifle class.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...d-precision-rifle-class-concept-approved.html
http://ncpprc.com/FPRConcept.pdf
http://www.paloaltogunclub.com/forum/index.php?board=21.0
http://bugoutwhale.com/showthread.p...ifle-(FPR)-Officially-Kicks-Off-March-12-2011
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Yeah, liberals are the ones that alter facts. That is why people who have to actually deal with facts for a living e.g. scientists and historians are overwhelming liberal. That is why the biggest predictor of political lean is education and intelligence. Fox news might be able to brainwash people, but the facts will stand.
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I wouldn't be shooting a .308, if I had one I'd be competing in TR. People in this new class would be shooting .243, 6mm, 6.5 creedmores, .260 and yes 7mm. In my case a 6mmSLR with 105 or 115 only gives up 0-10" (depending on what load you use for the 7mm) in wind drift at 1000yards in a 10mph wind and the 6.5's only give up a few more inches to the 6mm. That's why I said I'd have no problem competing against a 7mm. I'd personally take the slight disadvantage, for a cheaper less recoil intense cartridge. But more power to those that want to shoot one.
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Nice hour long read on everyone's ideas...
A couple things that come to mind after shooting F-open for 3 years now:
* F-class (open and FTR) are growing in leaps and bounds in the area I live in and there is no shortage of new people who are interested in finding out what it is about. In other words; we don't need additional categories within F-class. As others have said, if you have a great idea for a new "game", get it going on a local level and go through the growing pains like those that started F-class years ago.
* Our club has a Monday night league that shoots mid-range and uses 12-15 targets out of the possible 20, with 3 relays. I don't want to lay next to a person with a muzzle brake and try to concentrate knowing that there is muzzle blast and high noise coming my way every time they squeeze the trigger (got the constant ringing thing going already).
* The logistics of checking everyone's rifle and equipment for sub-categories at large regional/state matches, let alone national level would be impossible for match directors. We want to think everyone will play by the rules, but....
* FTR and open have become an equipment race on some level, but it still boils down to reading wind and making the best ammo for a match. I have learned more in the last three years about reloading than the previous 30 years spent making varmint and big game loads for hunting rifles.
* Just like rules that pertain to other disciplines of high power, the restrictive caliber options are there to level the field if you want to shoot off a bipod. Knowing the handicaps of this discipline, decide whether you like the bipod shooting or want more freedom on caliber choices and get an open rifle built.
We had our sight-in orientation for new shooters last night at 100 yards to make sure their equipment was capable of shooting 2MOA (yikes), dial from that zero to 300 yards, dial a 600 yard zero and than come back down to repeat. It amazes me how guys that hunt with a nice custom built rifle they shoot deer/elk at 600 + yards think that rifle will work for an F-class match.
To the OP:
a buddy of mine shoots the 6SLR for matches and can compete well in mid-range, but any LR match with much wind at all is easily beat by most if not all 7mm calibers. He is a HM in midrange, but can't get past expert in LR using that caliber. If it was better than the 7's, we would see the national team shooting them. Another buddy shoots tactical matches because he enjoys no wind flags, the ability to shoot with a can and no caliber restrictions. Pick your poison and go enjoy the one that fits your equipment.
A couple things that come to mind after shooting F-open for 3 years now:
* F-class (open and FTR) are growing in leaps and bounds in the area I live in and there is no shortage of new people who are interested in finding out what it is about. In other words; we don't need additional categories within F-class. As others have said, if you have a great idea for a new "game", get it going on a local level and go through the growing pains like those that started F-class years ago.
* Our club has a Monday night league that shoots mid-range and uses 12-15 targets out of the possible 20, with 3 relays. I don't want to lay next to a person with a muzzle brake and try to concentrate knowing that there is muzzle blast and high noise coming my way every time they squeeze the trigger (got the constant ringing thing going already).
* The logistics of checking everyone's rifle and equipment for sub-categories at large regional/state matches, let alone national level would be impossible for match directors. We want to think everyone will play by the rules, but....
* FTR and open have become an equipment race on some level, but it still boils down to reading wind and making the best ammo for a match. I have learned more in the last three years about reloading than the previous 30 years spent making varmint and big game loads for hunting rifles.
* Just like rules that pertain to other disciplines of high power, the restrictive caliber options are there to level the field if you want to shoot off a bipod. Knowing the handicaps of this discipline, decide whether you like the bipod shooting or want more freedom on caliber choices and get an open rifle built.
We had our sight-in orientation for new shooters last night at 100 yards to make sure their equipment was capable of shooting 2MOA (yikes), dial from that zero to 300 yards, dial a 600 yard zero and than come back down to repeat. It amazes me how guys that hunt with a nice custom built rifle they shoot deer/elk at 600 + yards think that rifle will work for an F-class match.
To the OP:
a buddy of mine shoots the 6SLR for matches and can compete well in mid-range, but any LR match with much wind at all is easily beat by most if not all 7mm calibers. He is a HM in midrange, but can't get past expert in LR using that caliber. If it was better than the 7's, we would see the national team shooting them. Another buddy shoots tactical matches because he enjoys no wind flags, the ability to shoot with a can and no caliber restrictions. Pick your poison and go enjoy the one that fits your equipment.
It is more than a slight disadvantage if the wind is blowing much. I love the 6mm's (shoot a 6BRX for midrange), but realize unless there is little to no wind, someone of equal ability can beat me with a standard .284...not even talking about what the WSM's and RSAUM will do.
I am all for bringing as many new people into LR shooting as possible. Just realize that many have come before us to make F-class what it is today. Where I live, F-class is still considered the redheaded stepchild and still have MD's that want to lump open and FTR guys in the awards. We have large enough numbers at most of the regional and state matches to not have sling shooters at the event any more. I am not opposed to a separate relay or some type of barrier set up if you want to shoot with a brake (cans are fine anytime). I'm not sure you gain much adding the sub category to F-class, but most guys I shoot with would welcome new shooters that play by the rules. Besides, this just brings more people together that share common interests and new buddies to have a beer with afterwards
.Under a moa until the wind gets to about 15mph. I can live with that to shoot a cheaper more enjoyable cartridge
It seems like the F/TR competitors are saying... great! Get some bodies out there, start it up and see what happens! My club has been shooting F-Class Rimfire for the past 5 years. And we have been doing Smack the Smiley for what? 7 or 8 years? It looks like the NRA is finally making a sport of it.
Rather than saying... there should be, guys should just get out there and do it. Posting on an Internet Board and expecting something to just kind of happen is futile.
I guess the folks who compete all of the time are rolling their eyes because they see people coming to competition without purpose-built rifles, lose big, and then say, "There needs to be a different class that specifically conforms to the rifle I am losing with in this competition."
And there is the rub. The second you develop limitations on barrel length, you know the winners will be shooting rifles with that precise length. I am not winning with my 22" rifle. I guarantee you I won't be winning in a class that limits barrels to 26". And a limitation that rounds must be able to be mag fed in a short action? Winners will be sporting Wyatt boxes or something similar. So that is really the issue. You are not going to be able to come up with a class that anyone can just show up with their tactical rifle and win. Purpose-built rifle/ammo will win every time (given the same class of shooter).
Given the audience here (primarily tactical comp shooters), I understand the hunger here for a sport that allows people to use their rifles in both sports. Or to use that bad ass sniper rifle that you bought and you can post pictures of on Sniper's Hide. If tactical comps ever arrived at a standard limitation, it might be possible to spec out that purpose built rifle that would work in both disciplines. But for now, it hasn't, so everyone who wants a new classification wants rules to conform specifically to the rifle they own (or pretty close to it). And that keeps a new standard from popping up.
Rather than saying... there should be, guys should just get out there and do it. Posting on an Internet Board and expecting something to just kind of happen is futile.
I guess the folks who compete all of the time are rolling their eyes because they see people coming to competition without purpose-built rifles, lose big, and then say, "There needs to be a different class that specifically conforms to the rifle I am losing with in this competition."
And there is the rub. The second you develop limitations on barrel length, you know the winners will be shooting rifles with that precise length. I am not winning with my 22" rifle. I guarantee you I won't be winning in a class that limits barrels to 26". And a limitation that rounds must be able to be mag fed in a short action? Winners will be sporting Wyatt boxes or something similar. So that is really the issue. You are not going to be able to come up with a class that anyone can just show up with their tactical rifle and win. Purpose-built rifle/ammo will win every time (given the same class of shooter).
Given the audience here (primarily tactical comp shooters), I understand the hunger here for a sport that allows people to use their rifles in both sports. Or to use that bad ass sniper rifle that you bought and you can post pictures of on Sniper's Hide. If tactical comps ever arrived at a standard limitation, it might be possible to spec out that purpose built rifle that would work in both disciplines. But for now, it hasn't, so everyone who wants a new classification wants rules to conform specifically to the rifle they own (or pretty close to it). And that keeps a new standard from popping up.
Right, I think a superlight 9lbs .30-06 with a 3-9X scope is THE ticket for 1000 yards F-class targets. Or maybe we could replace the round targets with silhouettes of animals. A deer at 600 and a moose at 1000? Should it be facing left or right?
I don't understand why people don't just get the fuck out and shoot what they have. I give zero fucks about competing at a national level in official F-class competition, but I get a lot of value out of shooting club and state matches. I bet a lot of the complainers don't have near the time at the thousand-yard line that I do, and I don't shoot that much compared to some of the guys here. I get better at reading wind (and I don't use the flags) by getting out and shooting in it instead of sitting in front of my computer pissing and moaning about whether Rule 6.3.5.2.6.1 says I can't have a painted rifle to shoot for score.
You really want to fuck the sling-and-jacket guys? Show up and shoot, volunteer your time, and bring in your friends. If you can't beat Stevie Super Shooter with his ridiculous 30" barreled, 42x scope-having, single-shot ".308" (in name only. A cartridge loaded over 3" isn't a damn .308, but whatever) with your 24" field rifle shooting magazine length rounds and a 15x scope, WHO GIVES A FUCK. Do better than you did last time, and let Stevie play with his toy.
You really want to fuck the sling-and-jacket guys? Show up and shoot, volunteer your time, and bring in your friends. If you can't beat Stevie Super Shooter with his ridiculous 30" barreled, 42x scope-having, single-shot ".308" (in name only. A cartridge loaded over 3" isn't a damn .308, but whatever) with your 24" field rifle shooting magazine length rounds and a 15x scope, WHO GIVES A FUCK. Do better than you did last time, and let Stevie play with his toy.
For a quiet shooter, you swear a lot.
For those of you who in the Houston area are interested in LR F-class shooting of any kind and would like to learn more, please see the updated post about the upcoming class.
For those of you who in the Houston area are interested in LR F-class shooting of any kind and would like to learn more, please see the updated post about the upcoming class.
It should be facing left, smartass. Everyone knows that !!! I shot a match at the Golden Spike in Salt Lake, they shoot steel targets with 1 MOA bullseyes at 5 different distances. Most of the competitors had hunting rifles and people had fun. What a strange concept.
No one shoots a moose standing to the right. GEEZ !!!!
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I only count two fucks per paragraph. That really isn't that fucking bad compared to some of the things I write.
I think they should have a 250lb and under shooter class. Fat people have an advantage in recoil adsorption.
You could still have tr, but it would stand for toe reach. If you can't touch your toes without bending your knees, you get bumped to open.
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Even though I do load to about 3.1 with some of my loads I tend to agree with this, and neither was it ever thought that you would/could load a 200/215/230 gr bullet in a 308 case, but we do.
The reality is that F-TR is F-Target Rifle, not F-whateverelse, and in pure target shooting, which is what it is, things are done differently than in field shooting. Would you also say that none of our single shot bolt actions are really 308s? No more than a Stock Car is stock. I completely understand the point of view, but I can get over it. I can get over it because I want to be competitive with the best shooters, and I'm not good enough to give up doing the things that make my loads on par with everyone else's. I can't spot anyone the point or three a match that I'd give up to lowered MV stuffing the bullets in to make mag length for a rifle that doesn't use a mag. One point per 20 shots is 5 to six points by Sunday afternoon. At some matches 5 points is the difference in being in the top 5 and being in the top 20.
Aye, but I'm not expecting to beat a guy like you - though I DO beat them every now and then. If I wanted to fight it out in the top 5 point spread I'd have a gun built for F-Class, and then we'd be talking apples to apples. What I was trying to say is if you want to be really competitive in F-class, you need an appropriate rifle and gear - and I don't set my stuff up that way. But as a field rifle shooter, if you just enjoy getting the experience of shooting at long range, and are able to take away the parts you want and ignore the parts you don't care about, the whole argument becomes sort of pointless.
No, my 24" FN firing mag length rounds, sitting on a Harris, isn't going to beat a 30" single-shot with a portable benchrest and a 42x scope on it. I don't care. The fact that I can land within 10-15 points of a guy shooting a gun like that in the same match tells me everything I need to know about my shooting - and really I don't care what that guy is doing anyway other than as a point of reference for my progress.
And no, I don't consider it the same round, ballistically, because it's not. But they have a different purpose.
No, my 24" FN firing mag length rounds, sitting on a Harris, isn't going to beat a 30" single-shot with a portable benchrest and a 42x scope on it. I don't care. The fact that I can land within 10-15 points of a guy shooting a gun like that in the same match tells me everything I need to know about my shooting - and really I don't care what that guy is doing anyway other than as a point of reference for my progress.
And no, I don't consider it the same round, ballistically, because it's not. But they have a different purpose.
I think the best relay I have shot at 1000 I dropped 5 or 6 points. If I "gamed" it and throated the chamber and loaded heavies, etc could I have dropped less that day? Probably but then its not shooting at 308 really. When I first started shooting F/TR the "pure" F/TR rigs were kind of a shock to me. I shoot a dedicated F/TR rig with a 28 inch barrel and I tried one of the silly 24 inch footprint bipods and I am now back to a folder. I have shot some clean relays at 800 and its cool and all but I think a line has to be drawn. I do NOT want to light the fire on the max COAL length debate again as that horse has its own thread. I also agree that F/TR is a TARGET RIFLE class. The spirit of the rules are to keep it a 308/223 class and loads that long are hybrids in my opinion. The line has to be drawn somewhere. F-O is nothing but belly benchrest and its accepted as much. So whats the point really? The thread is about making a "tactical division" of F-Class. I don't see the point of fixed distance paper punching for "tactical" rifles. I shoot F/TR as I have mobility issues from a injury down range and can't play in the TRL/PRS games anymore. Rambling aside, I won't argue that shooters will push the envelope of the rules to better scores, that's the nature of the game and leads to some cool inovations. As sports evolve, so do the rules, and I think a few rules and definitions in F/TR need to be looked at to keep it a true 308/223 class. I stopped looking at what others are shooting because its just blatant bullshit in my opinion, I go out and shoot against my previous scores. F/TR hasn't been a pure 308/223 class for a few years, just my opinion.
People love spending money for new equipment, including myself. Why are you trying to steal that joy from me?
I'm with Deny on this one.
Part of the concerns are:
Joe Schmo with his .270 deer rifle doesn't make a great competitor. He's the guy who shows up late, doesn't have his gear together, and complains about the rules. He also has a constant chip on his shoulder from getting his ass waxed by quality actions, glass, and barrels.
F-Class Open and Target Rifle competitions are growing at a tremendous pace. This is fantastic. Speaking as a person from the benchrest world, where our numbers are diminishing year by year; its a pleasure to see a shooting sport grow.
F-Class is attracting Palma Shooters who want optics, benchrest shooters who would prefer to see their 1000yd shots before firing the next, and tactical/practical shooters who prefer a bit more group shooting than running around.
I think it's wise create a new division if the current divisions become to overwhelming to the point where matches are inefficient. Until then, let it roll.
I'm with Deny on this one.
Part of the concerns are:
Joe Schmo with his .270 deer rifle doesn't make a great competitor. He's the guy who shows up late, doesn't have his gear together, and complains about the rules. He also has a constant chip on his shoulder from getting his ass waxed by quality actions, glass, and barrels.
F-Class Open and Target Rifle competitions are growing at a tremendous pace. This is fantastic. Speaking as a person from the benchrest world, where our numbers are diminishing year by year; its a pleasure to see a shooting sport grow.
F-Class is attracting Palma Shooters who want optics, benchrest shooters who would prefer to see their 1000yd shots before firing the next, and tactical/practical shooters who prefer a bit more group shooting than running around.
I think it's wise create a new division if the current divisions become to overwhelming to the point where matches are inefficient. Until then, let it roll.
Shooting with optics and bipods is the most popular type of rifle shooting. It is no surprise that F-Class has grown so much. I still just don't see a single reason why there can't be a division for tactical rifles. I'm not proposing any changes to the current divisions. All this can do is grow the sport and add more competition in local matches. Everyone seems to agree that a purpose built rig and a tactical rifle are entirely different beasts...so why are they in the same division? I understand the concern that you don't want the number of shooters in TR to diminish, but the one's shooting tactical rifles aren't really competing anyways.
Its a moot point and the biggest issue you will face is muzzle brakes. Tac rigs run them and Palma shooters HATE them. The old guard coat a sling crowd still has a LOT of pull with the NRA and F-Class is a NRA run classification. NATIONALLY brakes will never be accepted by the Palma guys and so it will never be on the line in any division of F-Class. I personally don't give a shit but if someone with a Fat bastard on a 300 win mag let one go 7 feet to the left or right of a palma shooter ... the sky would fall. The reply will be ... so don't shoot with the coat and sling guys. Not every club / area / region / org ... etc has the numbers and or resources to hold separate events for just F-Class and Service Rifle and Palma ... blah blah blah. Good 1000 yards ranges with Pits are not common place and getting on the calendar at them is not easy. We all know too well that red tape and bureaucracy are the way of things in any large organization. The NRA is just that and High Power Rifle classes in NRA have some pretty deeply entrenched people. Many clubs across the country hold their own version of a tactical match. If your club or area doesn't have something like that ... then start one. When about 50 or so NRA associated clubs nationally have these types of matches going the NRA "might" take a look at it. Right, Wrong, Agree, Disagree, doesn't matter ... that's the state of the game ...
Example of a local/regional club that has put together a "tactical season" for you to get ideas from
Idaho Practical PrecisionTactical Rifle - Home
Some do, and most try to squad them away from the palma guys. If they allow them to shoot that's cool but if they are reporting scores for them that's wrong. Every club/match director handles it a little differently form what I have seen. Usually depends on the numbers of shooters in each class, number or relays, etc and if they can accommodate them.
But your scores don't (or should not) get turned in to the NRA.
And we are back to 2013.
Go look at the very long thread about the field precision rifle being approved. I think Vu and company did a very good job of creating a class for the tactical rifles, but the majority of the tactical rig guys stuck their lip out, stamped their foot and cried like my 4yo when I take something from him, because if they can't shoot with brakes they don't want to shoot. I started with a 24" barrel that I screwed the brake off of to shoot F-TR. IMO that's a poseur attitude from someone who want's to play sniper (on a one way range), and not someone who really wants to get out and shoot. If you want to get out and learn/practice shooting at 1000 yards the use or lack of a brake would be the last thing that could stop you.
Yes, there are clubs that will allow you to shoot, but whether it's the sling and coat guys or the guys who are actually trying to win (competition and all that rot) brakes are a nuisance to everyone not using them. I know the arguments that there are ranges that have found ways to make it work with barricades of gear and such, but try to squad in with 400 F class shooters and 200 other F-TR shooters at Raton or Ben Avery, where they rotate your shooting point every match and now try to make it not be a massive SNAFU.
That's pretty much what I do with our local events, and it works out okay the majority of the time.
Last match we had a new shooter with a braked .300WM that was just not fun to be anywhere near when firing... but I'm not going to turn him away if I can at all help it. Put him down @ one end of the line and put myself on the same firing point to make sure he had some support at least when I was scoring for him.
I'm all for that at the club level. As Wade has pointed out once or twice it might not scale well to a larger venue... but for local matches?
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