F T/R Competition New F-Class Division

[jrbet83]

Just trying to get others opinions.

What I don't like about the two current divisions, is you either shoot a .308 (.223 isn't very popular) or you shoot open. With any sport, I think an important aspect, is getting new competitors involved....making the sport more accessible. The issue (if you want to call it that), is if your rifle isn't a .308, your shooting in open, where guys have as much money in their front rests and rear bags, then you might have in your entire set-up. What I personally would like to see is a Tactical division, and please don't say that's what F/TR is. What's tactical about a 30" heavy barrel gun, with one of those crazy Sinclair type bipod and a 40x scope. Or I guess to appease you, we could call it Hunter class. hell call it Wanna Be class for all I care. Rules would be, something along the lines of a barrel length restriction (26-28" max), an overall weight restriction, a max usable scope magnification (say 30x), maybe a restriction on bipod (like you can only use a foldable bipod). If this was the class, shooters could shoot their tactical/varmint/long range rifles and be competitive. I compete in USPSA, and to put it in perspective, it would be like only having Limited and Open divisions. Sure you can show up with your Glock, but your going to be shooting against $3000 full custom 2011's. But with the Production division, it always shooters with standard type gear to show up and compete versus others with standard type gear and be competitive. Another option, would be to lift the caliber restriction on F/TR to .30 caliber and under, but I wouldn't really want to screw with a division that's already established and doing good. I'm sure many will disagree with my thoughts, I personally don't see the negative in getting new shooters involved in a new division. If you like open, shoot open, it wouldn't change. If you like f/tr, shoot f/tr, it wouldn't change. Just add another division, that makes it easier for new shooters that don't have a dedicated f class rifle.

 

[diderr]

What would interesting is having a 338 class for 338 lapua and norma. Or just allow brakes in open class.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I remember when a F class division was first presented in my neighborhood. Everyone thought it would bring more folks out who had an interest in LR but no specialized equipment for it. It did. But, it was also expected that these folks would eventually replace their hunting rifles with equipment better suited for marksmanship development. This did not happen. And so today we have a class which supports shooters who are not it appears interested in advancing skills such as would be required to get good results with the Service Rifle or Match Rifle. The bottom line is if the OPs idea is to make things harder for the shooter (read marksmanship) then perhaps a division which requires a loop sling could be instituted. That would support development of position building skills. But wait, there's already a division for that. It's called any/any. So, if you want harder you've already got it. Thing is, F class shooters are not seeking the development of marksmanship skills as are needed in other divisions. They instead seek to win with other assets. I am not making a judgment about it, just an appraisal from facts on the matter. It is what it is; and, it seems to suit recreational shooters more than the disciplines having roots in military training.

One more thing. Easy = Hard. Getting into F Class is easy as most any rack grade equipment will be satisfactory; however, with such equipment wins would be hard, assuming other shooters are on the firing line with the same skills but using match grade instead of rack grade equipment. This is always the case since F Class is for the most part a game focused on equipment. The overall gist of this is F Class shooters all want to succeed and match grade equipment is seen as the answer. Interestingly, the most extreme example of Easy = Hard is found in Service Rifle Division of NRA LR, where most anyone can come to the firing line with equipment as good as the USAMU would bring to it: yet, with such equipment getting the best results will still require almost unimaginable skills to even be remotely competitive at the highest level.

 

[SOC308]

there used to be a 'modified' F class that was run at Quantico once a month. The modified was a just for fun match, but we shot a course of fire of 800, 900, & 1000yds. We had TR and open classes, but it was only restricted to calibers (if I recall correctly) and you had to shoot off of a bipod. There were no front rests allowed. It was like $20-$30 for the entire match and was generally a good day of fun.

If your club allows it then why not become a range officer and see if they'll let you host a modified match that meets your rules. We had upwards of 40-50 competitors for the modified matches and when we had sanctioned matches we would only have 5-10 competitors for the sanctioned matches..... There were only a few shooters who actually crossed over into shooting sanctioned matches. It seemed most everyone was happy with the gear they had and wanted to shoot field, varmint, tactical, etc...

 

[LRShooter101]

First rule of shooting in F-Class, that I try to teach every shooter that I work with,

You only compete against yourself!

Per above, unless you are going to empty your bank account, buy the best of everything, and practice 5 days a week, then you will never be competing on a level playing field no matter what class you shoot in.

You can try to come up with some form of class that levels the field to some degree, but unless you want to "issue" everyone the exact same equipment and ammo someone is still going to end up with an advantage one way or another. No different than car racing.

If your scores continue to improve each match that you go out and shoot, then you are winning! If not, then figure out what you need to do to improve your shooting skills, and resist the urge to reach for your wallet and new gear unless you know your equipment has truly become the limiting factor.

If you have to "compete against others", then take a look at the line and try to figure out which shooters best match your skill set (there is a reason NRA has Shooter Classifications), and which one has a similar set of equipment, and see how you do against them.

My humble opinion, nothing more.

 

[Denys]

Just trying to get others opinions.

Brace yourself.

What I don't like about the two current divisions, is you either shoot a .308 (.223 isn't very popular) or you shoot open. With any sport, I think an important aspect, is getting new competitors involved....making the sport more accessible.

Has it been six months already? We get this exact same discussion twice a year here. It starts something like this: "F-class is too hard for the average Joe with a hunting rifle to be competitive right away. Can't we just change the rules so everyone can win?"

The issue (if you want to call it that), is if your rifle isn't a .308, your shooting in open, where guys have as much money in their front rests and rear bags, then you might have in your entire set-up. What I personally would like to see is a Tactical division, and please don't say that's what F/TR is.

I won't because F-TR stands for F-class Target Rifle, not Tactical Rig.

What's tactical about a 30" heavy barrel gun, with one of those crazy Sinclair type bipod and a 40x scope.

Nothing "tactical" about F-TR and as I said, it wasn't meant to be "tacticool." It's for Target Rifles.

Or I guess to appease you, we could call it Hunter class. hell call it Wanna Be class for all I care. Rules would be, something along the lines of a barrel length restriction (26-28" max), an overall weight restriction, a max usable scope magnification (say 30x), maybe a restriction on bipod (like you can only use a foldable bipod).

Have a good time enforcing all these rules. Then as soon as you have them ratified, some yoyo will come along and complain that people who have been doing it for a while are using equipment that is just too good compared to Sam's Wal-Mart special and can we have a dummy class, please?

If this was the class, shooters could shoot their tactical/varmint/long range rifles and be competitive.

So they want to be competitive right off the street, with no preparations? Will you be banning handloads also? Also, to make it easier, you should lower the round count in a string from the current 15 or 20 to maybe 3 or 5, that way the skinny hunting barrels won't heat up to much and people can use store bought ammo without going broke. Will you be regulating the ammo so that some people won't be using premium match ammo?

I compete in USPSA, and to put it in perspective, it would be like only having Limited and Open divisions. Sure you can show up with your Glock, but your going to be shooting against $3000 full custom 2011's.

I don't know what a full custom 2011 is but why don't they allow Chevy Novas in F-1 racing?

But with the Production division, it always shooters with standard type gear to show up and compete versus others with standard type gear and be competitive.

Of course, and the guy who's been doing it for a while and who has figured out what parts to upgrade while staying within the rules should be banned, right?

Another option, would be to lift the caliber restriction on F/TR to .30 caliber and under, but I wouldn't really want to screw with a division that's already established and doing good.

Well, that's friggin' brilliant right there, let's gut F-TR and completely lose the intent of the division. Next, you'll be saying "it's for the children." You do realize that .30 caliber is not exactly the most efficient 1000 yard caliber that will fit within F-TR rules? The 7mm bullets have far better BC values and that's smaller than .30 cal, and the same with 6.5 and 6mm.

I'm sure many will disagree with my thoughts, I personally don't see the negative in getting new shooters involved in a new division. If you like open, shoot open, it wouldn't change. If you like f/tr, shoot f/tr, it wouldn't change. Just add another division, that makes it easier for new shooters that don't have a dedicated f class rifle.

I would like to go sailing in the America's Cup, but I don't have a sailboat; can't we just change the rules and allow me to use my canoe?

 

[Denys]

What would interesting is having a 338 class for 338 lapua and norma. Or just allow brakes in open class.

Right and let's just allow shooters to piss on the guys shooting on their right or use their bolt opening device to "tickle" the guy on the left.

 

[jim_k]

Woke Denys up! But it's true, everybody isn't going to win, and you can spend as much or as little (?) as you want. My pleasure lies in doing well with the least equipment. Next match I go to, hopefully, I will be using a Rem 721 with a Remington 22" take-off barrel in .308 Win. Handloads, duh. 30X scope IAW the OP's request. Rifle $400US, bedded action at home, barrel $85, and it is untouched, that is to say, not lapped yet; Sinclair bipod (sorry, I don't want to rip the sling swivel stud out of my 60 yr. old straight-grained walnut stock), Bushnell scope, Jewell hunting trigger. Yeah, that's cool to me! Last week, which was prior to load development, it shot a 12-shot string (out of 20, but these were the last 12) 1.25" high x 2.25" wide at 300 yards, with a Simmons 14X scope. Point is, I am using the F-class match to prove up my hunting rifle that I love because it's about as old as I am. Where else can you shoot 540 yards as if each shot was the first one at a tasty blackbuck?
Jim

 

[jdne5b]

Uspsa production isnt a good analogy. Guys who are winning now are using $1200+, steel framed, bull barreled guns with a 5lb da first shot and 1.5lb SA second shot. Sure a few guys do well with a glock or m&p, but if you look at the results from last year the top 15 was heavy on the CZ/Tangfos.

Guys dont show up and expect to win with a G19.

This same conversation happens on the uspsa/idpa forums also. Someone wants a place to play competitively with their Glock 23 that fits between Limited and Production or they want a place to play with their M&P with slide mounted red dot. Both of those guns already have a division to fit in.

I shot a model 12 LRP in 6.5 creedmoor my first year in Fclass. Did pretty decent and when I didnt, it wasnt the rifles fault.

 

[Denys]

Bah, I had to erase a great deal of what I originally wrote and then take a chill pill before sending of my very tame responses.

I just love it when some ignorant person comes in and says "your sport is too hard, let's change the rules so anybody can win."

When I first started in F-class, I was shooting a 24 inch AR-15 with a 2.5-10X scope and a Versa Pod. I was also the only F-TR shooter at the club so I shot against F-Open guys with fancy rigs for a long time. I was competing against myself, and slowly got better and learned a great deal. I then started to apply what I learned and improved my equipment over time. Finally when more F-TR shooters showed up we were able to form our own class and started really having fun.

I switched to a .308 by the simple expedient of having an existing Ruger M77 rebarreled with an awesome Broughton 32 inch barrel and then I restocked it myself with a Boyds. I had already switched to a then-new Sinclair Gen 2 bipod on my AR-15 that I had also had rebarreled with a 26 inch Krieger barrel. I made F-TR Mid range High Master with that AR but I was stuck at Shaprshooter at long range.

I learned about bullets, I started to learn about wind reading, and I improved my position, trigger and breath control. I also had to revamp my handloading technique a great deal.

When I got the Ruger going, I finally made Expert in LR but was stuck there for several years. A couple years ago I decided to invest the time and money into a custom F-TR rifle and the Arrowbee was born. This last year it allowed me to do very well in the Nationals and Worlds and I finally made Master at LR and just last month I shot it to win TSRA Long Range.

Nothing worthwhile comes easy, you have to work at it and if it was easy people would quickly get bored with it.

There is nothing preventing the OP from shooting his hunting rifle in F-class. If his ego is hurt because he doesn't think he can be competitive with it, well that's just hard cheese. It's not a reason to change the rules.

Also, I seriously doubt that more people would flock to F-class if it was "easier," it's already easy to get into; the competitor is the limitation.

 

[jim_k]

OK, part of the truth is that I would be shame-faced if I showed up at an F/TR match with a dedicated rig and didn't win! It's easier to lose shooting a real hunting rifle than with an expensive device that shows up its owner. And it's also practice for hunting.
Jim

 

[Denys]

So, what you're saying is that you are purposefully handicapping yourself to have that a built-in excuse for never winning in F-class.

But since you specifically state that your only real interest is hunting, let me just point out that after the first shot, F-class has absolutely nothing in common with hunting, or sniping. Even that first shot is a stretch unless you have the exact distance dialed in while hunting and that you are hunting from prone on a mat, at a target that will not move.

For me, it's all about competition; I hunt very little, if at all because there's just so little shooting in it and I love to shoot first and foremost.

You have to decide what your goals are and then go for it. If you want to be competitive in F-class, you need to make a commitment and put in the effort.

 

[jim_k]

Yeah, basically, but I used to hunt squirrels in Spring before there were paved roads through the forest. There are more squirrels now than ever, so I wasn't too good a hunter then, either. I do OK in competition; I was just being completely transparent. I totally agree that one must send more rounds downrange than hunting provides, and I prefer my targets to hold still. I brought my competition rifle to Bayou for Friday of the State match, and shot 187, when 192 was high; I had a 6, a 7, and an 8, and I don't know how I'll read the wind in those conditions, but I keep working on it. The 6 was to the right of my POA, and I never saw a left wind, officer! To be totally honest, I expect to win the match in May at New Braunfels, with my hunting rifle. Challenge issued. And I'll introduce myself whenever I get to Bayou for one of the usual matches. Grandkids in The Woodlands claim my time, but now I have to prove up, I guess. I hate the drive down there, what with the toll roads and freeways, but we used to keep a little boat on Chocolate Bayou. Long ago, but I ain't dead yet.
Jim

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I made a serious mistake about F Class recently. I thought something a bit like the OP and mentioned it here. I'm not being a wiseass, I really did screw up, and I got exactly what I deserved.

My mistake was that I wanted to do something different from F Class, and then call it F Class.

You can organize and configure a competition in way you want, but please, for all our sakes, do not try to call it F Class, because it isn't.

F Class is well defined, well known, and need not be modified.

Just do as you like, and call it something else. Borrow from F Class as well, but if what you come up with isn't F Class, it isn't F Class. Leave it at that.

F Class did its homework, weathered its teething pains, and came up with a highly workable venue.

If you want to do something new, I commend you, but you can't just swipe the F Class mantra, fiddle with it, and slap it upside F Class. You need to do it the same way F Class did it; what you'll have will not be F Class no matter how hard you try to convince the world it is so.

Finally, I believe that the best rules are inclusive, rather than exclusive. If you need to break out disassembly tools and do micrometer measurements, you're not defining a class, you're convening an inquisition.

Don't do that...

Greg

 

[40xs]

Here's the deal, guys. It takes the kind of rigs that some are complaining about in order to get your bullet in, or close to the x ring at 1k. anything less than a custom or semi custom rig just isn't going to cut it. Especially when you consider that the x ring is only 5 inches in dia. I'll bet if another class was started it wouldn't be long before some would complain that a lot of the shooters were handloading the rounds to the extreme that they were getting 3-4 standard deviation with their Berger hybrids and jamming them .005 into the lands. Wahh!! "it just isn't fair, we ought to have a class for just factory ammo, wahhh"...LOL.

 

[Sapper524]

The whole F-Class rules are restrictive with brakes and the like, been there done that. I was annoyed big time when I first went out and started shooting F/TR. My "offensive" tactical rifle with brake and a box mag was evil and etc. I have since built a dedicated F/TR rig and solved those issues, however I still see them with the new shooters that show up. What I have learned over time is that generally the other F-Class guys don't care. Its the Palma/service rifle crowd that gets all fired up over these issues. This whole batch of issues came to a head this past fall at the club/org where I shoot at 1000. The sling and coat crowd and F-Class were at odds and the relay rotations / pit duty cycle / everything had gone way over the top and some serious butthurt was flying form both sides. The big weekend(s) are now separate and F-Class has grown enough to no longer shoot side by side with the Coat and Sling crowd. I know every venue/club is different in how they enforce the "rules" and what they allow on the line. Kind of like Bench rest guys, most of them are really laid back and chill when not on the line, but mess with them in the middle of a 7 minute string and they will go ape shit. The shooting rules set and rifle type the OP is looking for exists ... it was created from communities like the one here at the Hide .... they are called the TRL and PRS. They are also growing in popularity and number. There are roughly half dozen TRL/PRS type matches in my area a year now and the slots fill up within hours usually. I know a few guys that shoot everything with one rifle and they specifically use Badger FTE brakes so when they show up at F/TR they spin off their brake and spin on a thread protector, snap in a single shot mag follower and shoot. That's the best answer/solution I have seen ...

 

[jrbet83]

I see alot of posts with the word easier. I don't every remember saying that F Class was too hard and needs to be made easier. Infact the class that I threw out there, would be HARDER to score well with compared to a dedicated open gun, with a $1000+ stock that's fits perfectly in your $1500 front rest and $400 rear bag. The truth is, whether you want to admit it or not, is F Class divisions are very restrictive. And it sounds like this gets brought up quite a bit. A reasonable person would conclude that a new division might be quite popular. And you know what the best part is, it doesn't taint open or tr at all. But then again, maybe guys like deny aren't interested in seeing the sport expand. I know when I saw last years Wa. St. F Class Championship only had 18 total shooters, my first thought was how can we make the sport more accessible. Because when it comes down to it, f class is pretty cool. Plus I think with any shooting sport, an important thing is getting new shooters involved, for multiple reasons. 1. More money for the club. 2. So the sport survives past just your generation. 3. We need as many people as we can get to support our 2nd amendments rights.

 

[jrbet83]

Another thing id like to add, is other shooting sports modify/add division. Shooting sports that are much more established and popular then f class. It's not considered a knock on the sport when its done, its just the sport evolving.

 

[jim_k]

I was going up Asotin Creek, near you guys, on April 16, 1973, and saw both ends of a rainbow at the same time - one in the field between us and the creek, and one on the hood of the pickup truck. Used to fish for [very small] trout in Asotin Creek, with my Grandpa.
Jim

 

[XTR]

I want to see what Denys wrote the first time.

Other than that hit the search function.

 

[Denys]

I see alot of posts with the word easier. I don't every remember saying that F Class was too hard and needs to be made easier. Infact the class that I threw out there, would be HARDER to score well with compared to a dedicated open gun, with a $1000+ stock that's fits perfectly in your $1500 front rest and $400 rear bag. The truth is, whether you want to admit it or not, is F Class divisions are very restrictive. And it sounds like this gets brought up quite a bit. A reasonable person would conclude that a new division might be quite popular. And you know what the best part is, it doesn't taint open or tr at all. But then again, maybe guys like deny aren't interested in seeing the sport expand. I know when I saw last years Wa. St. F Class Championship only had 18 total shooters, my first thought was how can we make the sport more accessible. Because when it comes down to it, f class is pretty cool. Plus I think with any shooting sport, an important thing is getting new shooters involved, for multiple reasons. 1. More money for the club. 2. So the sport survives past just your generation. 3. We need as many people as we can get to support our 2nd amendments rights.

You have a reading comprehension issue; nobody is against a new discipline. and Greg explained it quite succinctly.

Now, here's what you should do. The first thing is to read the rules for NRA High Power, which include F-class and the rules for IBS (I hope I got the name right) and any other rifle discipline you can find.

Next, draw up your own rules, or at least the highlights of what you are thinking about, making sure that you get the restrictions defined properly. In my opinion the rules should clearly state what you CANNOT do rather than what is allowed; if it's not mentioned in the rules then it's legal. Feel free to glean from existing disciplines for course of fire and match format, as well as classifications and so on. Having similar format makes it easy to go from one discipline to the other.

Come up with a name that is not based on F-whatever, you'll see why in a minute.

I would urge you to reduce the round count in a string; most hunting rifles will start to wander after a few rounds, plus factory ammo can get expensive and we do not want to prevent people from participating because of the cost of the ammo. I would also urge you to use the regular MR and LR targets rather than the F-class centers; you need to match the target size with the capabilities on the line.

If you allow brakes, it will not fit in as a new NRA Highpower class that can be shot alongside the other classes, so maybe you do not want it sanctioned by the NRA.

 

[Denys]

I want to see what Denys wrote the first time. View attachment 34408

Other than that hit the search function.

Hey, I'm just wondering how far this dead horse can go.

 

[jrbet83]

View attachment 34408

Other than that hit the search function.

Kind of proving my point. If it gets brought up and talked about so much, then it would seem the new division would possibly be a popular one.

 

[shoot4fun]

OP should take Greg's advice and start his own game. These F-Class guys are a rigid lot and won't stand for anyone trying to change their sport.

 

[jrbet83]

Figured some might get a laugh from this. From the F Class website
"The reason for F-Class's popularity is that it is FUN! You can go to any F-Class match and have a good time as well as meet some of the NICEST people in the sport." That is, unless you show to a match and ask why there is only 2 divisions and has there ever been talk of adding another. In that case, you'll get the response "im tired of keep getting the same damn questions, if you want to shoot something different, go start your own discipline but keep your hands off f class" And this despite the fact that ive continued to say nothing but positive things about the sport, infact that's why I wouldnt mind seeing it expand, because I like it so much and would love to seeore shooters out there. Oh well!

 

[ptd]

Speaking of new divisions/class, whatever happened to F-Class FPR? Did that ever go anywhere or is it still a concept that ranges/clubs can choose to adopt if they have the manpower/interest? Not trying to fan the flames, just curious is all...

-pd

 

[RStewart]

Speaking of new divisions/class, whatever happened to F-Class FPR? Did that ever go anywhere or is it still a concept that ranges/clubs can choose to adopt if they have the manpower/interest? Not trying to fan the flames, just curious is all...

-pd

We got tired of waiting on it, so started our own in 2011. It's not NRA sanctioned, but we still award medals and such.
Here are our rules. Pretty simple and let's people who don't fit into a NRA class shoot and enjoy the sport, too. We shoot our regular F-Class/Prone match the 1st Saturday of the month and this match the 2nd Saturday. We average around 20 shooters at this match.

Field Precision Rifle (FPR) –
A. A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber.

B. Barrel length is limited to 30” measured from forward edge of recoil lug to crown of barrel.

C. Repeater style actions only (blind or detachable magazines). Must be loaded and fired from the magazine.

D. Rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifles forend or sling. Bipod must be folding leg design commercially manufactured and will be included in rifles overall weight.

E. Sight magnification will be restricted to 25 power maximum. Higher power magnification optics are allowed, but must be kept to no higher than 25x. It will be checked on the line. Maximum weight including all attachments is 18 pounds. No minimum power optics will be required, but you will be shooting 600 yards, so keep that in mind.

F. No portion of the rifles butt or pistol grip may rest on the ground or any hard surface. Class A- No rear bags or mono-pods allowed. Must be supported in rear by competitors body e.g. fist bare or gloved and or shoulder. Class B- A rear bag will be allowed for shooting.

G. Muzzlebrakes will be allowed as long as they do not become a nuisance to other shooters.

H. Legal suppressors are allowed and will not be included in barrel maximum length.

Course of Fire:
All shooting is done from prone position. Each shooter will fire 3 x 20 round strings at 600yards. A maximum of four sighting shots can be used during the first string (if a competitor is not on target within two sighters they will be withdrawn from the line. This is a safety issue so everyone should be prepared before the match with the proper come ups.) Second and third strings will allow a maximum of 2 sighting shots. Squadding will be a conventional three relay rotation. All shooters will be required to score and perform pit duties.

There will be a 3 minute prep time prior to each string.
All firing is done from 600 yards on MR-1FC targets (3” X-ring).

String 1. 4 sighters in 4 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target


String 2. 2 sighters in 2 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target


String 3. 2 sighters in 2 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target

Aggregate is score of match 1, 2, & 3

 

[jrbet83]

Speaking of new divisions/class, whatever happened to F-Class FPR? Did that ever go anywhere or is it still a concept that ranges/clubs can choose to adopt if they have the manpower/interest? Not trying to fan the flames, just curious is all...

-pd

Shhh! Your not allowed to talk about divisions or the possibility of other divisions that aren't currently in the f class rule book. You keep that up, and they'll ban you from the competition thread. You've been warned.

On a serious note, your post made my day, because fpr open is almost exactly what I was suggesting, and I had never heard of it before.

 

[RStewart]

There is a NRA High Power Sporting Rifle division. Designed for hunting type rifles with 8 shots per string.

 

[scotharr]

Well, this has been a fun read. My .02:
1. Not opposed to the idea of a NEW division...but doubt it will gain the critical mass needed to succeed. One antiquated High-power rule that I really think needs to be changed is allowing suppressors. It's good for our sport because it reduces noise pollution, recoil, and hearing damage. Brakes?.....hell no.
2. F-TR is the most rapidly growing High-power category. At our Phoenix matches it's usually the largest category by far. Many days the F-TR crowd exceeds the size of all the sling shooters and F-Open shooters combined. SOOO, the facts on the ground indicate F-TR is thriving. It is thriving because people can bring just about any rifle to this event and be competitive. I simply don't buy the BS line that you need a high-end custom rifle to compete in F-TR....seen way too many violations of this supposed rule. Also, for mid-range, the 223 REM is extremely competitive....don't "have" to have a 308. My family routinely tops the F-TR list with a bunch of 223 REMs. In short, F-TR ain't broken and needs no fixin.
3. It seems that the people with the most suggestions for changing something are the ones with the least experience. Creativity is a valuable trait, but before crapping on a successful model, take some time to actually learn about it. Spend time and effort to develop some competence in F-TR. Then we'll take your suggestions more seriously....of course then your opinions will probably be different.
4. it does not matter what rules you come up with, the top shooters will always rise to the top....AND they will customize everything that is allowed. Looking at your original suggestions, they are not going to change the current F-class situation. Are you going to penalize a shooter using an expensive scope? Are you going to stop a shooter from putting a custom barrel on the rifle? Now who's being rigid?
4. Like it or not, reloading expertise (& using top components) is a big differentiator between top shooters and the rest. I don't see how any of your suggestions address that. Furthermore, if you restrict your new category to factory ammo....good luck growing that sport. So, once again, the best will rise to the top and the ones willing to spend the time and money will be the ones winning.

Ok Deny's, I gave you a little break, back to work handing out the beatings!

 

[jrbet83]

Well, exaggeran a fun read. My .02:
1. F-TR is the most rapidly growing High-power category. At our Phoenix matches it's usually the largest category by far. Many days the F-TR crowd exceeds the size of all the sling shooters and F-Open shooters combined. SOOO, the facts on the ground indicate F-TR is thriving. It is thriving because people can bring just about any rifle to this event and be competitive. I simply don't buy the BS line that you need a high-end custom rifle to compete in F-TR....seen way too many violations of this supposed rule. Also, for mid-range, the 223 REM is extremely competitive....don't "have" to have a 308. My family routinely tops the F-TR list with a bunch of 223 REMs. In short, we appreciate your suggestions to "fix" F-TR, but nothing's broken...
2. It seems that the people with the most suggestions for changing something are the ones with the least experience. Creativity is a valuable trait, but before crapping on a successful model, take some time to actually learn about it. When you've demonstrated some competence, then people will take you more seriously.
3. it does not matter what rules you come up with, the top shooters will always rise to the top....AND they will customize everything that is allowed. Looking at your original suggestions, they are not going to change the current F-class situation. Are you going to penalize a shooter using an expensive scope? Are you going to stop a shooter from putting a custom barrel on the rifle? Now who's being rigid?
4. Like it or not, reloading expertise (& using top components) is a big differentiator between top shooters and the rest. I don't see how any of your suggestions address that. Furthermore, if you restrict your new category to factory ammo....good luck growing that sport. So, once again, the best will rise to the top and the ones willing to spend the time and money will be the ones winning.

Not trying to get into a name-calling contest, but sometimes rookie BS has to be called out for what it is.

Now, Deny's, you can get back to the beatings...love it man!

You should re read the posts, not one person has said ftr needs fixing. In fact it was stated those divisions shouldn't be touched because they are so popular and established. Also no stated that only factory ammo should be used. No one stated that only factory barrels should be used. No one stated that expensive scopes shouldn't be used. Actually pretty much Everything you said, is a lie/exaggeration. It's easy to make your point when your making stuff up, you must be a liberal.

 

[LRShooter101]

Figured some might get a laugh from this. From the F Class website
"The reason for F-Class's popularity is that it is FUN! You can go to any F-Class match and have a good time as well as meet some of the NICEST people in the sport." That is, unless you show to a match and ask why there is only 2 divisions and has there ever been talk of adding another. In that case, you'll get the response "im tired of keep getting the same damn questions, if you want to shoot something different, go start your own discipline but keep your hands off f class" And this despite the fact that ive continued to say nothing but positive things about the sport, infact that's why I wouldnt mind seeing it expand, because I like it so much and would love to seeore shooters out there. Oh well!

F-Class can be FUN, as long as you don't get hung up on leaving with a first place trophy!

I can understand the need for a new class if the current classes were excluding a large number of shooters. Reality is, the only ones who might get excluded are the ones who are running a rifle with a Brake. At a lot of the matches here, they will actually let you shoot with a Brake, they just will not let the shooting count for record per the NRA rules. Sorry, if people are choosing not to shoot F-Class, then IMHO it is due to their own personal hangups, not because the sport is actually trying to exclude anyone.

I have to spin my Brake off of my rifle, and I rarely have a snowballs chance in hell at winning because I am not running custom high dollar F-Class gear, however that does not keep me from showing up, shooting, learning something from it, and most importantly having fun because I don't care if I am not going to walk away with first place finish. I started the sport as a Sharpshooter and have worked my way up to Master, which is good enough for me.

Reality is someone is always going to have better gear, more time for practice, and whatever it takes to win hands down. I learned that first hand when one of the F/T-R National Shooters showed up at a local match and kicked everyone's ass including all of the shooters in F-Open! The F-Open Shooters could have bitched and complained and said that shooters from the National Teams should not be allowed to shoot at the local matches. Instead most of the shooters took whatever positive lessons they could from the experience, largely because that National Team shooter went out of his way to answer questions, provide suggestions, and help anyone anyway he could.

Reality is, F-Class is NOT everyone's cup of tea, and some people would obviously be better served shooting something else. Per many responses above, if there needs to be other options, then by all means make it happen at the local level. Hate to say it, but until there is enough going on at a local level, it is going to be hard to get changes made at a National Level.

Show Up, Shoot, Learn Something, Have Fun!

 

[jrbet83]

My thinking was, that there are shooters who would like to shoot non .308's in a non open divison. Obviously I was wrong, sorry for bringing the topic up.

 

[damoncali]

F Class is probably already the easiest discipline to start in. Maybe rifle silhouette is easier, but not by much, and that gets cancelled out by having to shoot off hand. F class, as far as competitive shooting goes, is easy (I know, I know - I don't shoot cleans either, but still). Equipment is no where near as fussy as benchrest, it's known distance, you get to use a rest, don't need to worry about anything but prone, you don't need a coat, sling, scope, etc. It doesn't get any easier.

I would also encourage anyone who is dissatisfied with F class to look at the larger sport of high power - I would challenge you to find a class/course of fire that won't meet your needs. AROS? Any/Any? Match Rifle XC? Mid range service rifle? There are already so many high power equipment classifications that it dilutes the competitive spirit at small matches.

 

[Tactical]

F Class is anything but easy to shoot when you look at top scores. When us FTR guys shoot side by side with Palma shooters there scores are higher because there target is much larger than ours. Before you say they are better shooters, the best Palma Shooters around have shot lots of F TR Matches and they don't score as high with our equipment on our target as they do in the Palma Realm.

As to another F Class division I am for the Tactical 308 and Tactical Open Divisions ( Vu's very good idea idea from around two years ago)to get a foot hold because they limit the equipment which is something I would like to see but another classification past that is something I wont support.

Now a few years back they tried a sporting rifle match in NRA but I believe it failed.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

The most highly skilled shooters are the ones who win in anything, when equipment is the same. Let's reverse your example and take the F class shooter and place him in NRA LR Service Rifle Division. Now who will win? Answer, the most highly skilled shooter, period.

 

[no1special]

the people that really want to compete will always find a way, the ones that don't, come up with reasons not to. rules aren't right, rules aren't fair, my gear isn't good enough...etc...etc...etc..

 

[40xs]

Very good point, Sterling!

 

[damoncali]

I don't mean "easy" as in "you will shoot high master scores the first time out".

By "easy", I mean relatively. Getting started in F class and shooting good scores is flat out easier than doing the same with a service rifle cross course (for example). I mean that both from a skill perspective and an equipment barrier perspective. (Getting an F class rig shooting acceptably is WAY easier than doing same for Benchrest, for example). It's one of the reasons I shoot F class. I can go out and enjoy myself with less to fuss with. It's a nice change up from sling shooting, and not the technical pain in the ass that benchrest is.

 

[Whiskey Tango Foxtrot]

And you don't need a high dollar custom rig to be competitive... I wouldn't do it with a "hunting" rig but I did do it with a bone stock Remy 5r for 3 years and was fairly successful winning in my classification allot and 2nd or 3rd overall often in FTR at a local level.
And then take it hunting the next weekend.

Joe

 

[XTR]

Shhh! Your not allowed to talk about divisions or the possibility of other divisions that aren't currently in the f class rule book. You keep that up, and they'll ban you from the competition thread. You've been warned.

On a serious note, your post made my day, because fpr open is almost exactly what I was suggesting, and I had never heard of it before.

As I suggested above, search function. There is about a 25 page thread in here somewhere on it.

Now as to your new format. You can do anything you want at a local match. F-class started when a couple of guys wanted to shoot their Palma rifles with a bipod and scope. (go read the FAQ at the top of this forum) The did it, it got popular, it was sanctioned by Canada and a few yrs later by the NRA in the US.

Coming into a bar, standing on a table and bitchin' about the music will get you less than a warm welcome most places I go. If you want to do something different start your own. If you have a single particle of understanding of how the NRA shooting sports division works you'd be amazed that F class is sanctioned. It didn't happen because a couple of guys asked for it, it happened when some people made the valid point that it was filling ranges on Saturday and Sunday and maybe it was time to recognize it. So, if you want your [insert class here] get out, promote and get people shooting. Invest your time and get out and run some matches. Prove it.

I've worked three shooting clinics at Oak Ridge in the last couple of yrs, what we typically get are guys who want to try to shoot their hunting rifle once at 600 yards. I think we've had two, maybe three guys who have come out to shoot comps since then. The point is that you are going to need to show the participation, and therefore the need to get an entire class created.

Why cant I shoot a brake?
Why do I have to single feed?
Why can't I use a can?

Those are the usual gripes, and they've been beaten to death. If you want all that find a tactical shoot. If you look just up the page there is a forum here dedicated to tactical competitions. It is hugely popular, and I'm sure it's a blast, if I didn't live 20 minutes from one of the best ranges in the country I might be playing that game.


As stated in other posts here, the problem with bringing a sporter/hunting rifle to an F-class venue is that the strings of fire will kill the barrels. Again, this is one of those times you should go read and understand the rules as they exist today. We shoot as a part of NRA Highpower. The only choices for course of fire are 15 or 20 shots for record. Do that 3 times a day plus sighters with the associated time limits, or more importantly the speed at which competitors shoot to stay on a wind condition and you will toast a light barrel in no time.

Now, I have seen several 260Rem rifles shoot in F-Open. One guy last month was shooting off of a bipod. Brian Bowling has won the TN state championship in Open two yts in a row shooting a 260.

 

[Tactical]

The most highly skilled shooters are the ones who win in anything, when equipment is the same. Let's reverse your example and take the F class shooter and place him in NRA LR Service Rifle Division. Now who will win? Answer, the most highly skilled shooter, period.

Sterling you are absolutely correct.

I believe I learned to shoot, not from the sniper course they sent me but from Shooting Across The Course. I believe I learned to read wind from Palma Shooting.
F TR made me a better loader and more precise wind reader because the target is far smaller.
I think everyone that can should shoot as many disciplines as possible.


F TR is easier on the body but harder on the scores.

I understand the Tactical side wanting some NRA type of event. I believe that is a good thing. It will bring consistent scoring and equal the playing field. An example of this is the department once sent me for a week long "Train up" before a large match. By the time the match came about they could not move a rock without me knowing it, so ranging and wind reading where cemented in my head. Now the guys who did not get the train up had a big disadvantage and thought I was a god for how easy it was for me. In fact it was unfair because I had all that practice before them. If NRA has an event everyone gets offered same amount of practice on the range. Thus equally the chance to win.

Now I am not slagging anyone who runs a train up before a match on their range. Its a business and they have to keep gates open. Matches drain resources and they need to make some money to eat. In their position I like most everyone else would do the same thing. Besides only about fifty percent show up for practice at NRA events anyway

 

[Denys]

We got tired of waiting on it, so started our own in 2011. It's not NRA sanctioned, but we still award medals and such.
Here are our rules. Pretty simple and let's people who don't fit into a NRA class shoot and enjoy the sport, too. We shoot our regular F-Class/Prone match the 1st Saturday of the month and this match the 2nd Saturday. We average around 20 shooters at this match.

Field Precision Rifle (FPR) –
A. A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber.

Easy to check, maybe.

B. Barrel length is limited to 30” measured from forward edge of recoil lug to crown of barrel.

How do you check that? For 400 people? You could change the rule and make it from the bolt face and stick a wooden dowel down the muzzle with a mark on it at 30 inches. If the mark is below the crown, the barrel is too long. Bring hacksaws.

C. Repeater style actions only (blind or detachable magazines). Must be loaded and fired from the magazine.

So no Ruger No 1s? How restrictive. Also quite dangerous playing with loaded mags on a line. Yuck.

D. Rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifles forend or sling. Bipod must be folding leg design commercially manufactured and will be included in rifles overall weight.

Just wait until some enterprising person produces a carbon-fiber Moon module pod with folding legs for $500. The Harris bipod users will have a fit.

E. Sight magnification will be restricted to 25 power maximum. Higher power magnification optics are allowed, but must be kept to no higher than 25x. It will be checked on the line. Maximum weight including all attachments is 18 pounds. No minimum power optics will be required, but you will be shooting 600 yards, so keep that in mind.

How do you enforce that rule? And for 400 people? If I'm shooting you had better not come talk to me unless it's to pull me off the line or there will be words and not nice ones.

F. No portion of the rifles butt or pistol grip may rest on the ground or any hard surface. Class A- No rear bags or mono-pods allowed. Must be supported in rear by competitors body e.g. fist bare or gloved and or shoulder. Class B- A rear bag will be allowed for shooting.

Wow, you already have sub-sub classes. Does sub-sub-class FPR-A compete against FPR-B shooters? Do you have separate ratings for these sub-sub-classes?

I have some interesting glove designs in mind, are there limitations on the glove?

G. Muzzlebrakes will be allowed as long as they do not become a nuisance to other shooters.

Who decides when it's a nuisance? Can anybody make that call? Also, there are some firing lines where you can actually get quite cozy with your neighbor. Throw in the scorers and the guys with the brakes may not last beyond their first shot.

H. Legal suppressors are allowed and will not be included in barrel maximum length.

So this division is only intended for the states that allow suppressors. What if the competitor lives in such a state but his or her county of residence does not have an LEO that will sign for them?

Course of Fire:
All shooting is done from prone position. Each shooter will fire 3 x 20 round strings at 600yards. A maximum of four sighting shots can be used during the first string (if a competitor is not on target within two sighters they will be withdrawn from the line. This is a safety issue so everyone should be prepared before the match with the proper come ups.) Second and third strings will allow a maximum of 2 sighting shots. Squadding will be a conventional three relay rotation. All shooters will be required to score and perform pit duties.

There will be a 3 minute prep time prior to each string.
All firing is done from 600 yards on MR-1FC targets (3” X-ring).

String 1. 4 sighters in 4 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target


String 2. 2 sighters in 2 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target


String 3. 2 sighters in 2 minutes time limit on MR-1FC target
20 shots 20 minutes on MR-1FC target

Aggregate is score of match 1, 2, & 3

So, let's see here. If you are not on target within two rounds you go home. Wow, and I thought we were strict with allowing up to 7 rounds for that.

You have a sighter period and then you have a record period? Can't I just take my sighters during the record period where they are meaningful?

 

[jim_k]

Yes, Denys, I agree. If a shooter (like me) wants to come to a match with a substandard rifle (read: lame hunting rig) and shoot non-F/TR cartridge, that shooter is just going to have to shoot in F/O, and get up from his string, and loudly proclaim himself the winner in F/O, sub-class lame rifle less than $2,000, with skinny barrel, sad scope, and magazine (empty right now). I'm not upset at all with the guys who have discussed another class, but it's there now, so y'all can shoot in it (F/O). If there's interest in that proposal entered higher up the list, then people will show up when someone sets up the match. I'm sorry, but I don't even want the first round downrange by the guy next to me with a muzzle brake. I'm already addle-pated enough, but if he's five positions away, I'm OK. Like on a 24-point line, where only 10 are filled, I would (as Range Officer), let the pariah with the brake whang away at it from position 15-24, and we'll all be friends when it's over. I would even permit his score to count, if it is not a registered match; in other words, if he won, he would take the prize home. I have certainly bragged about being high .30 cal shooter with a bolt rifle in our High-Power matches, but I still was in the middle of the pack, in reality. We do that all the time at our range. Those are side-bar matches, usually among the shooters who bring weird gear (like me) and could never win a High-Power match where a High Master shows up with all his extremities intact.
Jim

 

[Denys]

LOL.

 

[RStewart]

Easy to check, maybe.


How do you check that? For 400 people? You could change the rule and make it from the bolt face and stick a wooden dowel down the muzzle with a mark on it at 30 inches. If the mark is below the crown, the barrel is too long. Bring hacksaws.



So no Ruger No 1s? How restrictive. Also quite dangerous playing with loaded mags on a line. Yuck.


Just wait until some enterprising person produces a carbon-fiber Moon module pod with folding legs for $500. The Harris bipod users will have a fit.




How do you enforce that rule? And for 400 people? If I'm shooting you had better not come talk to me unless it's to pull me off the line or there will be words and not nice ones.


Wow, you already have sub-sub classes. Does sub-sub-class FPR-A compete against FPR-B shooters? Do you have separate ratings for these sub-sub-classes?

I have some interesting glove designs in mind, are there limitations on the glove?


Who decides when it's a nuisance? Can anybody make that call? Also, there are some firing lines where you can actually get quite cozy with your neighbor. Throw in the scorers and the guys with the brakes may not last beyond their first shot.


So this division is only intended for the states that allow suppressors. What if the competitor lives in such a state but his or her county of residence does not have an LEO that will sign for them?


So, let's see here. If you are not on target within two rounds you go home. Wow, and I thought we were strict with allowing up to 7 rounds for that.

You have a sighter period and then you have a record period? Can't I just take my sighters during the record period where they are meaningful?

Whatever. At least we do something to give them a place to shoot?
What do you do besides ridicule and act as an Internet bully?

 

[Denys]

I compete in F-TR.

I also act as the Long Range match director for the club and so I have to deal with the various requests.

So, between filling out paperwork for NRA, TSRA, our club and shooting at the Nationals and Worlds, I've learned a little bit about the various rules and how they are applied and so on.

What I have observed is there are a lot of people who call me or come to a match and want to shoot 1000 yards with whatever they have. They are not interested in competition, they just want the chance to shoot at 1000 yards with old Betsy and then brag about it from that point on. If they actually shoot a match, they very rarely come back.

 

[Al_Ski]

Denys we have F-TR and F-Open. We could institute a new class, F-SO. As in F-Special Olympics.

Run what ya broung, ifin ya keep all the shots on paper you win a medal!

:grin:

 

[jrbet83]

Easy to check, maybe.


How do you check that? For 400 people? You could change the rule and make it from the bolt face and stick a wooden dowel down the muzzle with a mark on it at 30 inches. If the mark is below the crown, the barrel is too long. Bring hacksaws.



So no Ruger No 1s? How restrictive. Also quite dangerous playing with loaded mags on a line. Yuck.


Just wait until some enterprising person produces a carbon-fiber Moon module pod with folding legs for $500. The Harris bipod users will have a fit.




How do you enforce that rule? And for 400 people? If I'm shooting you had better not come talk to me unless it's to pull me off the line or there will be words and not nice ones.


Wow, you already have sub-sub classes. Does sub-sub-class FPR-A compete against FPR-B shooters? Do you have separate ratings for these sub-sub-classes?

I have some interesting glove designs in mind, are there limitations on the glove?


Who decides when it's a nuisance? Can anybody make that call? Also, there are some firing lines where you can actually get quite cozy with your neighbor. Throw in the scorers and the guys with the brakes may not last beyond their first shot.


So this division is only intended for the states that allow suppressors. What if the competitor lives in such a state but his or her county of residence does not have an LEO that will sign for them?


So, let's see here. If you are not on target within two rounds you go home. Wow, and I thought we were strict with allowing up to 7 rounds for that.

You have a sighter period and then you have a record period? Can't I just take my sighters during the record period where they are meaningful?

This is the post of the year. Earlier in the thread, you say if you want something like that, draft a rule book, set up some matches and go shot your new dicipline. That was yesterday. Now that someone has actually done that, what a shock, your still bitching. Im starting to see a trend with your posts.

 

[Denys]

Al, long time.
Please email me your physical address so I can send you the bill for the cleaning job on my brand new laptop and the carpet.

As an explanation, I have a large flat panel monitor on the right side of my laptop so that I work with 2 screens because I have lots of windows opened at any one time. I had this window on the secondary monitor and I was looking at it while taking a drink from my glass of iced tea.

Now, here is where you can appreciate my professionalism. When I read your post, I exploded in laughter, however that would have caused the gulp of tea to decorate this big old 24 inch flat panel. Because I am an IT professional, and a mid-range F-TR High Master, I was able to control my breathing and not expel the tea from my mouth and onto the secondary monitor, just like a mere Marksman would.

Unfortunately, the laughter was so great, the tea could not be contained and shot out of my ears. So the liquid out of my left ear went onto the brand new laptop and the liquid from my right ear hit the carpet.

Sigh.