First 7mm? I would definitely just go 7mm PRC or 7mm RemMag. Easy button. Plus, I don't see this new cartridge sticking around long. It will be the 2025 6.8 Western...
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NEW- Geissele King Hunter
- Thread starter Euro.Connor
- Start date
While I’m not jumping into this, I’m not against new and emerging technologies.
Buckle up, with the number of industry players jumping in this looks like the path forward.
Buckle up, with the number of industry players jumping in this looks like the path forward.
Not necessarily, it could also mean that normal brass case pressure signs don’t exist in these new cases so using flat primers and bolt lift as a way to tell max pressure doesn’t work. So the process that guys typically use to work up a load, starting low and moving up till you see pressure signs, could destroy your gun if no pressure signs are present before pressures get dangerously high.
As a result the process of developing a load is different, I’m sure we will get more info on it soon.
It's neat, I guess, but there's plenty of guys that fuck up the standard reloading process. The "follow strict lab process to reload" is gonna be interesting. And as another poster mentioned, then you are this close to a proof load, it don't take much to have a real bad day. And while the case may hold that 80k+psi, when does lug setback lug recess damage and bolt face thrust come into play? This reminds me of when the 6creed came out and guys were saying barrel life of 3k+rds, uses less powder than 243 and goes faster than 243.....we all saw how that played out. There are very few free lunches, pressure+velocity=increased wear.
Most of those guys aren't paying $3800 for a rifle. Hell, they're probably under $2k for the whole setup and the 2 boxes of ammo that will last them 10 years.
^ Bingo...
Dudes that gravitate to Ron Spomer also have to swing by the "sporting goods" counter at their local Wal-Mart to salivate at the display of Savage Axis and Mossberg Patriot rifles.
Then they go buy a tin of Crossman .177 pellets and bitch about how the price has increased $0.45 since 2018...
Chamber this in available high performance magnum cartridges, plus the standard variety short magnum/creedmoors and sell 100000% more rifles VS the 7mm brokeback
I think that's the secret. They likely have only tooled up to build a few hundred a quarter. When they don't sell they'll blame the ammo and drop it, if they do sell they'll expand the line.
If they wanted to sell rifles, at least make them marketable, chamber the rifle with something relevant to test the waters, at least give it a chance. This is destined to fail with this chambering.
A guy can build a rifle for this price with similar/same components for the same price, get whatever cartridge he wants, and have the confidence a quality smith put it together who specializes in bolt guns. Not some ar15 gun plummer from geissle. Hell they might not even do the work, could all be contract 3rd party. Looks cool tho! That manners LRH can make a fn areo solus look big pimpin'!!!
Better shooting through chemistry.
A fixed amount of work happens when a fixed mass is accelerated to a fixed velocity. On a pressure to time plot, it is the area under the curve. The shape of that curve is important.
The magic sauce is in achieving the pressure quickly, sustaining it as the bullet accelerates down the barrel, and completing the burn while the bullet is still in the barrel.
I have memory of a range on hwy 225 in Pasadena or Deer Park when I was younger. I had gone there some with my father and last time was probably 50 years ago. I would swear it was an Olin refinery/processing plant of some sort there, and the range was out front. I don't know what product they made there. But the range did have Winchester ammo.
If there is not a reliable domestic supply of innovative and appropriate propellants for shooting, anything good is only by luck.
edit: I meant to post this in the other larger thread, so, I duped it there.
A fixed amount of work happens when a fixed mass is accelerated to a fixed velocity. On a pressure to time plot, it is the area under the curve. The shape of that curve is important.
The magic sauce is in achieving the pressure quickly, sustaining it as the bullet accelerates down the barrel, and completing the burn while the bullet is still in the barrel.
I have memory of a range on hwy 225 in Pasadena or Deer Park when I was younger. I had gone there some with my father and last time was probably 50 years ago. I would swear it was an Olin refinery/processing plant of some sort there, and the range was out front. I don't know what product they made there. But the range did have Winchester ammo.
If there is not a reliable domestic supply of innovative and appropriate propellants for shooting, anything good is only by luck.
edit: I meant to post this in the other larger thread, so, I duped it there.
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Unpopular opinion:
Marketed properly, I think this could very well attract the urban hunter that goes west and spends a few grand on a guided hunt.
He’s got money, but he doesn’t have the kind of money that the Gunwerks groupies have.
He doesn’t even know what hand loading is, much less does he do it.
He’s an AR guy who owns Geissele products because to him they are the equivalent of a Gucci bag to girls who follow Kardashian women.
Crazy?
Marketed properly, I think this could very well attract the urban hunter that goes west and spends a few grand on a guided hunt.
He’s got money, but he doesn’t have the kind of money that the Gunwerks groupies have.
He doesn’t even know what hand loading is, much less does he do it.
He’s an AR guy who owns Geissele products because to him they are the equivalent of a Gucci bag to girls who follow Kardashian women.
Crazy?
Federal finally figures out what it takes to roll out a new cartridge successfully and they give us… this?
Was Federal already tooled up for NSGW? My tinfoil read on the whole thing was that this was really smoke and mirrors to get tooled up as a secondary or swing producer for the Common
I like the idea of this. Being able to shoot 2.9k FPS out of a 16" barrel has an appeal for hunters (ie keeps the weight down, and maneuverability up). That being said, I'll wait 3 or 4 years before I even consider it (half) seriously.
I dont care about the rifle at all.
If Geissele sells the action for a decent price, and it takes an existing prefit… there might be potential.
If I wanted a strong start to the sales of my rifle as it entered the market...I'd pick the most popular cartridges and work my way out as sales increased...not the other way around.
They are catering to a very small niche with introducing the way that they are. Perhaps it is due to a manufacturing limitation? Perhaps Federal is pushing a lot of incentives their way?
I also think the new Seekins PH3 might have put the nail in the coffin for this one right off the bat with the value vs performance. I'm not even in the market for another hunting rifle, but I've gone back and checked it out several times on their website...
They are catering to a very small niche with introducing the way that they are. Perhaps it is due to a manufacturing limitation? Perhaps Federal is pushing a lot of incentives their way?
I also think the new Seekins PH3 might have put the nail in the coffin for this one right off the bat with the value vs performance. I'm not even in the market for another hunting rifle, but I've gone back and checked it out several times on their website...
Somehow I don’t think you are part of the demographic I described.
Question: How would you feel right now if you didn’t eat breakfast?
Just to start by saying I'm not familiar with this space at all.
Just thinking out loud.
Would Federal pay a royalty to Geissele to offer their first rifle in a new federal cartridge? Just seems like there would be financial incentive to Geissele from Federal to work with them on their first production bolt gun.
Or are they tied together in another way? Just thinking about the marketing strategy after reading @diggler1833 post about doing better going after a known market.
Just thinking out loud.
Would Federal pay a royalty to Geissele to offer their first rifle in a new federal cartridge? Just seems like there would be financial incentive to Geissele from Federal to work with them on their first production bolt gun.
Or are they tied together in another way? Just thinking about the marketing strategy after reading @diggler1833 post about doing better going after a known market.
I probably should not have quoted your post on that, but am agreeing there is potential for geissele if properly marketed. It just may not be in the package originally introduced.
You and me both.
After watching the video I immediately thought "Am I shooting NRLH factory class next year?" If I don't have a barrel ready ~November, I think the answer will be yes.
What would influence him to buy this over a Proof MTR or similar? Geissele brand recognition counts for something, but this is like saying the common bmw brand-whore is going to also buy a bmw mountain bike, just because he/she/it drives their cars.
I have been wondering about some sort of incentive. Several rifle makers have seemingly jumped on something a lot of us are scratching our heads about.
I explained that.
Question: How would you feel right now if you didn’t eat breakfast?
.
For now it is to see if a person has the mental capacity to answer a simple question.
IF answered, I’d go further.
How would you feel right now if you didn’t eat breakfast?
I only eat breakfast occasionally on weekends. So I'd feel exactly like I already do.
Bingo!
This is a question that has been floating around on the Internet. There been some limited interpretations on the answers.
What we fail to realize is that people think differently and if we could come up with some questions to ask people to understand how their brain works, we could have more productive and less hostile debates with those people.
My interpretation of how this question is answered, shows me things like juxtapositional thought, sequential thinking, and also the ability to handle hypotheticals. Also does the person suffer from main character syndrome.
You would be surprised how many women that you asked this question would simply say “well I ate breakfast this morning”. The problem is that’s not the question. It’s not even close to the question. The question is not about what you did or did not do. It’s about a hypothetical.
Your answer started out that way, but you moved on to an answer to the exact question that I asked.
Yea probably a dumb move to only offer this in 7BC. Lots of would-be buyers not ready to give that cartridge a go will pass on the rifle. I like that they used a steel barrel and didn't chase shaving every last ounce.
Cool looking action though.
Cool looking action though.
Further, how does this apply to the topic at hand?
When discussing targeted demographics, some people have a difficult time taking themselves out of their own “person” and “being” that targeted demographic for a moment.
Other people are extremely gifted at this.
I would not be surprised by that. Every time I ask my wife a question I do it knowing that I'll be repeating the question again, very slowly and clearly until she realizes that whatever gibberish she responded with had nothing to do with the original question.
The female customers I deal with are mostly the same, but I have to find a nice way to repeat the question ten times until I get something resembling an answer.
Interesting topic though. There are definitely people whose inner monologue I'd pay to hear. Our latest friend Batshouse is one such individual.
I’m happy someone is bringing this up. It always kinda surprises me when people have trouble understanding why a certain demographic thinks a certain way or like in this example would be interested in purchasing this item. The traveling city hunter is a good example you bring up. Bigger conversations would be a lot more civil if everyone thought like this. Instead we get people who hate something and immediately can’t comprehend how someone else would like it.
You get asked to explain any data, evidence, or even logic behind your assumptions about Geissele's target demographic for this product, and immediately change the subject.
There's definitely a point in here about how women act. A deflection often serves to mask a weak argument. If you had a clear, solid explanation, you would likely present it rather than redirect.
Insisting that others are biased or “too close” to their own preferences to judge the situation objectively. Meanwhile, you yourself never addressed your own assumptions or biases about a demographic.
"Ive already explained it" is classic circular reasoning as well, because you haven't actually explained anything.
By accusing everyone else of being biased and unable to separate themselves from their preferences, you also attempt to place yourself above scrutiny.
The entire exchange is hilarious because its entirely void of any coherent argument, no evidence supporting the assumptions, and a clear demonstration of the very bias you claim is everyone else’s problem.
My original question to you was what separates this product from something like Proof's bolt action.
Geissele may be the equivalent of a 'designer bag' for a certain urban demographic, but just like designer bags, there's multiple brands and multiple offerings that compete in this same category. Proor, Larue, Seekins, and even Sig Sauer all being amongst that relevant group of brands, with bolt action offerings.
You failing to have an answer to that question, doesn't suspend the validity of it.
Adding to that, your specific point about this being for customers of guided hunts. Most guides have recommended gear lists. Some even provide a rifle to their customers. What guide is going to risk their reputation by recommending a brand new caliber in a brand new platform?
Guides as a demographic skew towards what they believe to be proven platforms and calibers that have been withstood the test of time.
Nobody needs to be "gifted" at anything to understand that different groups of people buy different things for different reasons. The snipershide populous likely wont be buying this, since theres plenty of knowledge here about it competing with the cost of a proven semi-custom action, with your choice of barrel, to exact spec, built on whatever stock you want, but there's also zero evidence to support that the "geissele fanboy" crowd is rushing to spend 4k on a bolt action either, short of your opinionated post.
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I'm already gave my thoughts on the subject. If you don’t feel that is sufficient, fine. I asked a question specifically aimed at understanding how you think. It was germane to the discussion despite the fact you felt it superfluous.
You are talking to a person who created an internationally recognized Brand, that has fed me for the past 23 years.
I have also been hired numerous times as a marketing Brand consultant. I have refused jobs at high end marketing firms. (often wonder if I made the right decision.)
I learned long ago that folks have different aptitudes. This doesn’t make anyone better than anyone better than anyone else. I’m around people all the time that make me feel “stupid” because they have an aptitude in areas, I don’t. For example I can’t spell for crap and these devices seem to be making that worse. If you challenged me to a “spell off,” you’d crush me.
I’m sorry you felt insulted by my question. That was not my intent.
This is not the bear pit and I erroneously did not realize this was a vendor’s thread. Mea culpa to @Euro.Connor
Let’s get back on the topic at hand.
A lot of folks here dump on Spomer but I like the guy. I watch this video and really start to feel that this cartridge may well surprise us all.
Whether or not they buy the “King” remains to be seen but it sure will be interesting to see where this goes.
Whether or not they buy the “King” remains to be seen but it sure will be interesting to see where this goes.
You asked a baited question, thats viral (congratulations, you've already been patted on the head for being that original by others who havent seen it asked before), and implies that every person you asked of it was a low-iq idiot, and now want to take the high road?
What brand of bicycle did you invent? Because you're obviously well acquainted with backpedal.
You're not the only one professionally familiar with demographics or segmentation, but you are the only one to act intellectually superior because of it in this discussion.
Roll sizing then bumping the shoulder may be the answer. I'd be surprised if they get 6 loads out of a case.
I wonder how much money it costs to manufacture these cases vs brass.
Would be nice to be able to buy virgin cases cheap enough to load and leave on the ground...
I wonder how much money it costs to manufacture these cases vs brass.
Would be nice to be able to buy virgin cases cheap enough to load and leave on the ground...
So the person inferring others suffer from main character syndrome seems to believe they are the main character?You asked a baited question, thats viral (congratulations, you've already been patted on the head for being that original by others who havent seen it asked before), and implies that every person you asked of it was a low-iq idiot, and now want to take the high road?
What brand of bicycle did you invent? Because you're obviously well acquainted with backpedal.
You're not the only one professionally familiar with demographics or segmentation, but you are the only one to act intellectually superior because of it in this discussion.
Not that this has anything to do with the rifle.
Well back to the main point. Since Geissele only made 50 I bet their main target is mainly collectors/brand bandits looking to buy Geisseles first ever bolt gun. I’ve heard very good things about geisseles cut rifle barrels so I bet it’ll shoot the hair off a flys ass but it’s a lil heavy for a hunting rifle. If they cut a pound off the weight or went with a carbon fiber barrel I think they would have a stronger argument in terms of practicality in this market at that price. I’d bet money tho they’ll have no problem selling their inventory of this batch. I’m expecting more popular cartridges to come after sometime later.
Spomer is slightly more mellow but JVB recently had a public meltdown about using 6mm cartridges for big game hunting. He ended up having to remove a podcast episode after lying about the experiences of people he knows (they corrected him publicly). Neither of those guys understand how bullets work or kill things.
The initial run available through EO is 50. What makes you think that’s all they’re going to make? It would make absolutely zero sense to tool-up for only 50.
I’m talking about their initial run. They’ll make more than 50, I'm mostly talking this run with 7 backcountry. I’m assuming they come out with more caliber choices eventually. Albeit Geissele doesn’t seem to put out a ton of numbers in their more niche products for example I’ve been trying to get a gfr for like 6 months now
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There will be some brand recognition for sure, and I'd like to think that any modern sporting rifle manufacturer is probably looking a decade or two into the future of their market (and future infringements).
I am unsure though of how much of that will initially carry over...especially if it is tied to another cartridge that flops. Hopefully Geissele will bring out the other cartridges quickly. They're already behind the power curve IMO with the name of the rifle and trigger. And if the "King Hunter" gets outdone in independent reviews by the Seekins and/or Proof...it's going to become a negative image.
Time will tell. I wish them luck. At least they have a good thing to fall back on.
I am unsure though of how much of that will initially carry over...especially if it is tied to another cartridge that flops. Hopefully Geissele will bring out the other cartridges quickly. They're already behind the power curve IMO with the name of the rifle and trigger. And if the "King Hunter" gets outdone in independent reviews by the Seekins and/or Proof...it's going to become a negative image.
Time will tell. I wish them luck. At least they have a good thing to fall back on.
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