New lapua Scenar-L .308 Win 175gr bullets - any experience?

[Bugaboo]

I am brand new to reloading, so have patience, please.

I found this bullet on offer and had it recommended to me by some people, but decided to run it through here.

I want a load for 1000m matches. I shoot Sako TRG 22 1:11 standard barrel.

Is this bullet a good choice over a 155gr Scenar? What will I gain by going with a heavier bullet?

Thanks for any help!

BTW: The Google Custom Search takes me to the SS Home Page, not to a selected thread... I tried.

 

[Dogtown]

175gr in .308WIN is very popular - the 175 SMK (Sierra Match King) is arguably one of the most popular bullets in the US for shooting .308WIN to 1000 yards and beyond. The extra mass will help against the wind and the ScenarLs should have very uniform dimensions and weight. In general, the 155 Scenars perform very well at long range, but need to be pushed pretty hard to get that performance. 175s tend to be more forgiving.

 

[Aimsmall55]

1000 meters??? I'd go with something heavier. Maybe a 208 amax..... Something. You'll be losing steam very rapidly at 1,000 meters.

 

[Dogtown]

At 1000m, most .308s will be approaching the transonic stage, depending on how fast you're able to shoot them. I think I was pushing them to 2750fps and they were going transonic just past 1000m. Lots of bullets don't handle that transition well, but the Scenars do. On top of that, the Scenar L line of bullets are further optimized and are more uniform than normal Scenars, so I would think the 175 ScenarL would be a good choice for 1000m matches.

 

[jephs422]

On topic, I have some 155's Scenars loaded up that I want to shoot to 1000. Is there a better option for a shorter barrel, i.e., slower? I'm pushing 168 smk's at 2575. I was thinking of loading up some 175 smks since I'm not sure I'll be able to push the scenar's fast enough.

 

[Dogtown]

If you want to shoot 155 Scenars to 1000 yards, you'll want to push them fast, like 2900fps fast. This is easy in a 22" or 24" barrel, but you may be struggling in a short 16-20" barrel. The 175s in that case would be better. Case in point, I shoot 175SMKs out of my 16" barrel and have taken them accurately to 1000 yards. It's not a knock on 155s, in fact I switched to them in my 24" SR90 years ago because at high velocity they really give the 175s a run for their money. In my 16" 1:8 twist barrel though they didn't shoot well at all and there was no way I was getting them to the speeds needed to make them perform at distance. That's yet another reason why the 175s are the standard, in a way. Personally, I'd be inclined to give the 175 ScenarL a try.

 

[DocB]

Bugaboo,

More mass and BC at MV would push me towards the 175s. You have enough twist to stabilize it. 1300 f/s at target is the goal, neither of which will make it considering normal starting velocities for each bullet. Time for a 30-06 or 300 WM. Disclaimer: I haven't tested the Lapua bullet in 155 in short (under 30") barrels. If the barrel length is less than 29-30", 175s are your best hope.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Sako man]

1000 meters??? I'd go with something heavier. Maybe a 208 amax..... Something. You'll be losing steam very rapidly at 1,000 meters.

208s will kick like a mule and little more wear on the throat if your gonna do it correctly. 175 going 2650 is fine for 1000 and retain a lot of energy, about as much as a 357 Magnum point blank. The advantage of getting 155 scenars going really fast is less recoil and great BC, so wind bucking ability. I have shot both a bunch beyond 1000 and they both hit with authority. If you have a shorter barrel I would recommend 175 SMK, you will get more drop that you have to dial for but good wind bucking in general. The big difference between a 155 scenar and 175 SMK is that once going transonic-sub sonic the 175 will stay more stable where the 155 will start to tumble.

There is no B.C. data available yet for that 175 Scenar. Looks very interesting, might be promising. Another excellent 175 bullet with a very high BC is the Berger 175 Tactical designed by Bryan Litz, excellent ballistics.

 

[Sako man]

Bugaboo,

More mass and BC at MV would push me towards the 175s. You have enough twist to stabilize it. 1300 f/s at target is the goal, neither of which will make it considering normal starting velocities for each bullet. Time for a 30-06 or 300 WM. Disclaimer: I haven't tested the Lapua bullet in 155 in short (under 30") barrels. If the barrel length is less than 29-30", 175s are your best hope.

HTH,
DocB

I can push a 155 scenar around 2870+ from a 24 inch barrel using about 47grains of Varget. This gets them to 1000 accurately. But yes 175 runs the right balance between energy, velocity, BC, and stability. As quoted "best bet"

 

[Bugaboo]

Just to clarify: i have a 26" 1:11 barrel.

Thank all for the advices.

 

[Sako man]

Just to clarify: i have a 26" 1:11 barrel.

Thank all for the advices.

If thats the case you should look into 155 Scenars as you will be able to get them going pretty dam fast. My Sako TRG has 1:11 and it loves scenars above all else. Though I can feed it anything.

 

[Bugaboo]

I shot the Scenars 155gr at app. 2800 fps, made by a guy I know and its great. Now I want to start reloading myself and want to know, if the 175gr would be better.

 

[Sako man]

I shot the Scenars 155gr at app. 2800 fps, made by a guy I know and its great. Now I want to start reloading myself and want to know, if the 175gr would be better.

It's hard to say, seems like out of a 26" inch barrel and a little more powder 2900 fps would be just around the corner. Up too 800-1000Y the 155 might out perform the 175 because of the higher B.C. but at longer distances the 175 is going to hit harder and be more stable. I can't get 175s to behave as well as 155 Scenars out of my Sako. The Sako loves 155s scenars as I mentioned. Make sure to measure the chamber and load the 155s to the lands/grooves and that gun will sing in the accuracy department. Get more powder in them so you can get 2900+fps. If you intend to shoot 1150+Yards then go 175. Here is a pic of some 155scenar hits from a TRG on ISPC at 1180 Yards. I had them going really fast (very hot loads) so there was some accuracy degradation. Granted my groups were not perfect here but it at least its on metal. But it shows that it can be done with Scenars, I just don't recommend loading them that hot. Only reason it works is the TRGs amazing action and very long barrel or 26" anything less and this would not be possible. Funny but when looking on the ground I found whole 155 bullets just laying there in tact, the ones that landed in the dirt that is. So not a lot of energy at that distance.

Do you know what powder he is using?

 

[Bugaboo]

My longest shots at matches are right there at 1000m (1100 yards), in Europe for civilians it is an exception.
I can't complain about the 155gr Scenars, up to 800m it's doing great.
I heard the U.S. military chose 175gr bullets for their 7.62x51 NATO sniper ammo... is it true? What was the reason?

 

[Aimsmall55]

208s will kick like a mule and little more wear on the throat if your gonna do it correctly. 175 going 2650 is fine for 1000 and retain a lot of energy, about as much as a 357 Magnum point blank. The advantage of getting 155 scenars going really fast is less recoil and great BC, so wind bucking ability. I have shot both a bunch beyond 1000 and they both hit with authority. If you have a shorter barrel I would recommend 175 SMK, you will get more drop that you have to dial for but good wind bucking in general. The big difference between a 155 scenar and 175 SMK is that once going transonic-sub sonic the 175 will stay more stable where the 155 will start to tumble.

There is no B.C. data available yet for that 175 Scenar. Looks very interesting, might be promising. Another excellent 175 bullet with a very high BC is the Berger 175 Tactical designed by Bryan Litz, excellent ballistics.

One of me best friends shoots the 230 for ftr! All I'm saying is a 175 grain bullet these days isn't going to cut it for the most part. At the Texas state match EVERYONE was using 185 grain bergers and up to 230 grains. All I'm saying is if you want to win, you got to shoot what's going to be most forgiving in the wind. Here's a graph. 10 mph wind at 3 o'clock.

 

[Sako man]

My longest shots at matches are right there at 1000m (1100 yards), in Europe for civilians it is an exception.
I can't complain about the 155gr Scenars, up to 800m it's doing great.
I heard the U.S. military chose 175gr bullets for their 7.62x51 NATO sniper ammo... is it true? What was the reason?

Yes that is true, .308 issued ammo is 175 grain HPBT. And as stated earlier the 175 has the right amount of balance of BC. Energy, Stability. At most of the matches I attend when someone shoots .308 they are shooting 175Smks, there is a reason for this. Why don't you try it and see how it works. No one here will be able to convince you until you try it yourself. Good luck.

 

[Sako man]

One of me best friends shoots the 230 for ftr! All I'm saying is a 175 grain bullet these days isn't going to cut it for the most part. At the Texas state match EVERYONE was using 185 grain bergers and up to 230 grains. All I'm saying is if you want to win, you got to shoot what's going to be most forgiving in the wind. Here's a graph. 10 mph wind at 3 o'clock.

Very interesting. This is cross wind data, I wonder what the drop is like as well? Thanks for the data. If the 175 doesn't cut it you should let the military know that.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Very interesting. This is cross wind data, I wonder what the drop is like as well? Thanks for the data. If the 175 doesn't cut it you should let the military know that.

Lol. I don't think the military gives a shit as long as its effective range is 800 meters and will eliminate people. I was speaking from a competitive standpoint. Hence the graph

 

[Stand.Deliver.]

Lol. I don't think the military gives a shit as long as its effective range is 800 meters and will eliminate people.

This. The 175 SMK isnt the bullet of choice for the Ole Big Military because it's the best; it's the bullet in use because it's cost effective, jump tolerant, and good enough. It's no surprise to the folks at Crane that other bullets with higher BCs do the job better with less wind deflection.

When you think of 920 rounds in a wooden case, the penny pinchers see the cost difference in better bullets adding up. Good enough is good enough, it'll still gets the job done.

On the OPs original question, I think AS' graph says it all- you'll get better wind deflection with the heavies.

 

[Sako man]

I asked this very question a year ago to Bryan Litz, he was gracious enough to return my email. Here are his thoughts on shooting long distance (1 mile) with .308.

""1) use a high BC bullet which maximizes the extent of supersonic range. The
downside of this option is that when such long, high BC (215-230 grain)
bullets do encounter transonic, they generally tumble and have no
capability. Plus you would need a custom (long throat) chamber to get the
bullet seated out of case, then there's the excessive recoil, etc.

2) choose a medium weight ~175 grain, blunter bullet which remains stable
thru transonic. This option has lower overall performance and a shorter
supersonic range, but it's the only way to have any capability at all beyond
transonic where your 1 mile target is.



The two bullets I would recommend are the 175 SMK, and the Berger 175 OTM
Tactical. Both are transonic stable and will get you to a mile, provided
you have the optics to adjust for the excessive drop.""


If your considering reloading your own I recommend this as a must read, excellent info on the cartridge, match bullets, and reloading.

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/ReloadingFroggy.html

 

[Sako man]

Lol. I don't think the military gives a shit as long as its effective range is 800 meters and will eliminate people. I was speaking from a competitive standpoint. Hence the graph

Sarcasm. And I fully disagree, the 175 does cut it and has been cutting it for a long time. Sure your graph shows that a heavy bullet has less wind deflection but your data negates a ton of other variables. Clearly when there are a lot of people shooting 175s at over 1000 or even 1200+ and smacking steel then the 175 does not cut it comment is inaccurate at best. I shoot 308 competitively as do many of my friends, our bullets of choice are usually 175smks or 155 scenars, both bullets cut it just fine.

And in answering the original question the TRG and 155 scenars work hand in hand. Shooting anything heaver than 155 scenars or 175smks out of the TRG is unnecessary.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Sarcasm. And I fully disagree, the 175 does cut it and has been cutting it for a long time. Sure your graph shows that a heavy bullet has less wind deflection but your data negates a ton of other variables. Clearly when there are a lot of people shooting 175s at over 1000 or even 1200+ and smacking steel then the 175 does not cut it comment is inaccurate at best. I shoot 308 competitively as do many of my friends, our bullets of choice are usually 175smks or 155 scenars, both bullets cut it just fine.

And in answering the original question the TRG and 155 scenars work hand in hand. Shooting anything heaver than 155 scenars or 175smks out of the TRG is unnecessary.

I was not trying to insult you. But if you want to assume I'm ignorant. That's like calling the kettle black. I own a GAP Crusader in .308. I've shot every damn bullet you can think of. And for lr stuff the heavies DO better. Don't be a dick as I wasn't being one in the first place. You may disagree with me but I will not sit back and take your wimpy fucking insults

 

[Aimsmall55]

I got the email before you edited the post

 

[Aimsmall55]

Here's peckerheads (sako) original post



Dear Aimsmall55,

Sako man has quoted you!

-----------

---Quote (Originally by Aimsmall55)---
Lol. I don't think the military gives a shit as long as its effective range is 800 meters and will eliminate people. I was speaking from a competitive standpoint. Hence the graph
---End Quote---
Sarcasm. And I fully disagree, the 175 does cut it and has been cutting it for a long time. Sure your graph shows that a heavy bullet has less wind deflection but your data negates a ton of other variables. Clearly when there are a lot of people shooting 175s at over 1000 or even 1200+ and smacking steel then the 175 does not cut it comment is uneducated at best. Plus your telling a person who owns a Sako TRG in .308 which has an amazing affinity for 155 Scenars and can launch them with deadly effectivity out to 1000 that in essence 155 scenars are no good because of their weight. This philosophy further highlights your own ignorance of that particular weapon system.
-----------

You can view your list of quotes here: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/usertag.php?do=profilenotif&tab=quotes

All the best,
Sniper's Hide Forums

 

[Sako man]

I was not trying to insult you. But if you want to assume I'm ignorant. That's like calling the kettle black. I own a GAP Crusader in .308. I've shot every damn bullet you can think of. And for lr stuff the heavies DO better. Don't be a dick as I wasn't being one in the first place. You may disagree with me but I will not sit back and take your wimpy fucking insults

Amendment edit...8/15/13

Aimsmall, my bad. In re-reading through my posts I did come across as insulting. I have pretty thick skin and can be pretty callus/prick like sometimes. In the interest of correcting my wrong I hope you can accept my apology.

We can agree to disagree and be gentlemen about it.

Thanks

Sako.

 

[heavypanzer]

On my tests 155 is way better on and over 1000yds than 175 and 168 added together. 168 at long distance (in subsonic area) is like a piece of useless rock going down at light speed, 175 is hair better in BC but the MV is hard to push up. While with the similar BC, 155grs can do 200fps or more faster than 175s, a huge advantage almost push 308 ballistics into 300WM territory (300WM with heavy bullet still have ballistic superiority, but not much), still with 308 barrel life, short action and relative cheap component cost, best of two worlds .

I did some mile long shooting with the factory Lapua 155 ammo before, this bullet left the 26in muzzle at around 2950fps and with a 28mil-ish drop got to a mile in a average near 100F day, still shoot true, just no longer SubMOA, and till today 155 bullets are the only 30 cal projectile category I know that can make a mile long 308 shot close enough possible for the mere mortals, dial 20-25mil and hold the rest, 175 in 308 do a mile group need a 60MOA+ base and a extremely high adjustment good scope. 168 in 308 doing a mile is just the realm of gods.

 

[drjjl]

Why is everyone talking about the performance of the 175 SMK vs the 155 scenar? The OP was specifically asking about the NEW 175 scenar-L that JUST came out. Lapua hasn't even released the B.C. for these yet.

 

[milotrain]

Looks like 2550fps with a 203 A-MAX is just holding 1.2 mach at 1000yards depending on altitude, temperature and pressure. I'd like a bit more comfort zone to keep it above 1.25 past 1100fps or you'll likely be losing more points in elevation than you will save them in the wind.

 

[targaflorio]

I don't know about the 175s, but I am shooting the new Lapua 220s in a 300 win and love them.

 

[Brasscow]

I don't know about the 175s, but I am shooting the new Lapua 220s in a 300 win and love them.

Nice

I've been wondering about these. Have you done any checking to estimate what the BC may be?

 

[targaflorio]

Have not. I just worked up an OCW with Dan and got a really nice wide node centered at 74.4 grs of H1000.
My guess is they will come in at close to a .7 G1 BC.
What I also like is that I can seat them long into the rifling and still fit them in the mag.

 

[TNtrg.300]

Somebody ease chime in. I have 1000 of these coming from midway. Need a good starting OAL.

 

[milotrain]

Somebody ease chime in. I have 1000 of these coming from midway. Need a good starting OAL.

OAL is either specified for the cartridge or it's specified for jump. If it's jump then your rifle will define this length not anyone else's measurements. Jump them 10-20thou or run them at 2.82" if you are running a .308, and 3.340" for .30-06.

 

[drjjl]

Still waiting on the 100 count boxes to be in stock. Not ready to commit to 1000 of these especially when regular old sierra 175 matchkings, berger 175 otms, etc have a higher listed BC (Lapua lists the 175 scenar L @ .490 g1 BC)

 

[Emouse]

10,000 received

Still waiting on the 100 count boxes to be in stock. Not ready to commit to 1000 of these especially when regular old sierra 175 matchkings, berger 175 otms, etc have a higher listed BC (Lapua lists the 175 scenar L @ .490 g1 BC)

0.490 sounds conservative. Received 10,000 of the L's today and they are on weighing and inspection quite simply stunning. Anyone had a chance to run some loads up for these and apply them at distance?

Plan is to launch these in a 28" 5R 10 twist attached to an AIAW with RL15 and BR2's.

 

[Tactical]

Bugaboo, I am a member of Team Lapua and have used the 155,175 and 220's a bunch
155s are my favorite for short barrels and field use because fall angle is only about 10% less than a 300 wm with 190s and they shoot very well.

The 175s are the best all around for the magazine length rounds and shoot very well. Your 26" with 1x11 twist is perfect for either 175 or 155 loads.

The 220s are great for single shot 1000 yard F class but too long to use in magazine length rounds