New McMillan HTG M40A1 smear stocks!!!

#301
Jrb572 said:
They are talking about making it an option.
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They are making the smear pattern an option, they actually said there are three smear patterns they are going to offer, but it will be their standard colors they will not be doing any more with that limited early smear lime color. But someone up top could change their mind on that tomorrow and it could be a standard who knows. I know if I can get one FBI smear colored I will be all over it.

This picture is from the FBI thread. (https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/fbi-sniper-rifles.7009896/post-11300552)
IMG_1431.jpeg
 
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#306
He was able to custom order 10 stocks because he's a gunsmith who has been buying from McMillan for a long time. His stocks don't have a number associated with them because they aren't part of the 50 that are being trickled out on McMillan's website for collectors to purchase. I'm not sure about the other 2 gunsmith orders of 10 stocks each (LRI, GAP), but RWS might have the only smear stocks with the limited edition light green color that don't have the pillars installed by McMillan! That would make his 10 stocks very rare and highly desirable, since all the other stocks have the factory pillars.

There was another new smear that sold a while ago on GB, and it didn't sell for much of a premium. This stock from RWS just sold for $1,900 plus $40 shipping, plus GB fees (10%?), which puts it at almost $2,200! Obviously people were paying attention to how rare this variation is! I'd expect the other stocks he has to be priced similar, or even higher now that people are discussing them. If you're a collector who likes to have all the variations of something, you'd probably want to contact @RWSGunsmithing to try and buy one from him. I'm not affiliated with RWS, so I can't provide any other information. He might be selling the rest of the stocks as complete builds only, or he might sell the stocks straight-up. You'll have to contact him if you're interested.
 
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#307
i doubt it was the pillars... the one might not have gotten noticed, or people might have figured it was early enough to catch one at cost from mcmillan on its own. its getting late now to catch one of the fifty.
or was just the perfect storm of 2 people that really wanted it. auctions can be crazy like that.
was the other one listed a while back mentioned on this forum?
 
#308
It's a public auction, so you're right, it could be any number of reasons why it sold for what it did. However, it is a rare variation and that definitely needs to be taken into consideration. Yes, the other GB stock was mentioned on here and we were all following the auction.
 
#313
snake31 said:
has anyone ever tried upgrading to a dbm on the a1 and if so how would uou go about doing that? or would that be a pain in the butt
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It’s been done, but to me is defeating the purpose and principal behind building an M40A1. Major deviations from the original makes it something other than a ‘40.
 
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#314
snake31 said:
has anyone ever tried upgrading to a dbm on the a1 and if so how would uou go about doing that? or would that be a pain in the butt
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I’ll clarify a bit on the above, got some time while waiting on an oil change…

We nitpick these builds to the last part and bitch when little things like sling swivels aren’t correct, because to us little things matter most. This is historical replica building because we want the same exact thing as was used in the past, and we are very willing to pay the premium to get that. It’s about preserving history and bringing it to the present.

I carried an A1 for nearly five years of my life. I know every feel and detail of that old bitch. Me getting that back is about returning to my youth when I had shit like cartilage and unlimited energy. I notice the little differences immediately, like that manhole cover on the USO, just irks the shit out of me, but I accept it as there is no alternative in my budget to get one of the very few unconverted and highly priced Unertls that were auctioned.

There’s zero wrong with running a R700 with DBM in a McM HTG stock, it’s a great setup for someone who wants a simple yet capable rifle. Even topping it with a fixed 10x scope is fine as well, clarity of fixed mag optics is under appreciated, but it’s not an M40A1 no matter what other parts are used that may be from the original. So long as that is understood and appreciated, none of us would say a word. We have guys who have M40Ax “inspired” rifles and we love seeing those.

I remember shooting a match in Mississippi in ‘99 where I took my M40A1 and was outgunned from square one, even then. Guys with 10 round mags dominated the speed stages with high round counts, guys with high mag optics dominated the ultra precision or detailed target ID stages.

I was envious of their rigs and felt like I was running a brontosaurus in a greyhound race, but damn if there weren’t dozens of other shooters that wanted to fingerbang a real deal M40A1 that week. It’s legendary for its place in history and combat service, not its fancy features or capabilities.
 
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#315
snake31 said:
has anyone ever tried upgrading to a dbm on the a1 and if so how would uou go about doing that? or would that be a pain in the butt
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You know what your imagination sets your limits.

I love my 40 clone and my AI clone and wish I had an A5 but I don’t so if you throw all the parts in the air and let them mix in flight when they land you just may get….

An M40A1/3/5apus

34AB15AF-41B2-4B55-AA94-D593639C880A.jpeg


6495DB3A-02C0-451D-854F-498FA98BFA23.jpeg


00320833-83AE-4610-B5AD-2B47CE9D17AF.jpeg
 
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#321
I have three Schneider barrels. All have varying degrees of rough finish. But the one thing in common so far is accuracy. I just started loading for the A1 I bought last year. Don’t believe it had been fired prior to my ownership. Put together a book load for 168s. Still adjusting scope on it but was printing half inch groups or less. No need to vary anything on that one and I didn’t even try hard. My 35 Whelen build runs half to 3/4 inch with 225s. It thumps.
 
#322
Just a heads-up, but if you guys need an alternate source for an M40A1 barrel, and don't want to use the new Schneider ones (I don't know how the new ones stack up to the old Schneider barrels), it might be possible to have Bartlein made some A1 barrels. I recently sent @Frank Green an original 1970's vintage Adkinson M40A1 barrel to study. He's currently analyzing it and taking measurements for a personal project, but maybe he'd be willing to do a run of Bartlein M40A1 barrels if there was enough demand for them. He already makes the best reproduction circa 1966 M40 barrel you can currently purchase (measurements were taken from a real M40 barrel), so I think he could easily make an absolutely amazing reproduction A1 barrel!

What do you guys think about a Bartlein A1 barrel being offered to clone builders? Does anyone here have one of the new Schneider A1 barrels that was made by the new company owners? I've heard that the new Schneider barrels might have some changes, but I haven't been able to verify anything yet (I'll probably just have to order one and look it over). If anything has changed with the new Schneider barrels, I think a reproduction A1 barrel from Bartlein might be the best option. I'd really like to hear what you guys think, especially if anyone here has one of the new Schneider barrels that they could do a small review on.
 
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#324
I've heard that the new Schneider barrels might have some changes, but I haven't been able to verify anything yet (I'll probably just have to order one and look it over).
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I have not seen a new one either, but a local guy mentioned that the new barrel he looked at don't have the 'fine machine texture' finish like the originals, and are smooth to the touch. I don't know how to photograph or technically describe the finish on the original Schneider barrels, other than to say they had very subtle rotational machine lines/grooves/subtle coarseness on the surface from turning on a lathe. If you run your finger nail parallel to bore's axis, along the surface, one can tell it is not a perfectly smooth surface. (My sample size is only 2 barrels, bought them back in 2016 and 2017).

Fwiw, and maybe its a myth, but I was once told by an old timer (retired 2112) that the USMC had requested that Gary Schneider leave that surface 'coarseness" on his barrel blanks, as apparently it allowed camo paint to 'grip' or adhere a little better to the surface. At least that is what I was once told. Anyhow, that's what I heard regarding a small change in the machining process with the new owners/new barrels.
 
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#325
Wish I could show the difference in the three barrels I have. The only one I ordered personally was the .358 for my Whelen. A1 contour and rough finish. Gary accommodated. Even after it was ceracoated it can still be used as a file. Great guy.
 
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#327
USMCSGT0331 said:
Just a heads-up, but if you guys need an alternate source for an M40A1 barrel, and don't want to use the new Schneider ones (I don't know how the new ones stack up to the old Schneider barrels), it might be possible to have Bartlein made some A1 barrels. I recently sent @Frank Green an original 1970's vintage Adkinson M40A1 barrel to study. He's currently analyzing it and taking measurements for a personal project, but maybe he'd be willing to do a run of Bartlein M40A1 barrels if there was enough demand for them. He already makes the best reproduction circa 1966 M40 barrel you can currently purchase (measurements were taken from a real M40 barrel), so I think he could easily make an absolutely amazing reproduction A1 barrel!

What do you guys think about a Bartlein A1 barrel being offered to clone builders? Does anyone here have one of the new Schneider A1 barrels that was made by the new company owners? I've heard that the new Schneider barrels might have some changes, but I haven't been able to verify anything yet (I'll probably just have to order one and look it over). If anything has changed with the new Schneider barrels, I think a reproduction A1 barrel from Bartlein might be the best option. I'd really like to hear what you guys think, especially if anyone here has one of the new Schneider barrels that they could do a small review on.
Click to expand...

If I were to build another A1 i would definitely have reached out to Frank would love to see him make them. But I don’t know how long it would be before I would need to purchase another one.
 
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#328
USMCSGT0331 said:
Just a heads-up, but if you guys need an alternate source for an M40A1 barrel, and don't want to use the new Schneider ones (I don't know how the new ones stack up to the old Schneider barrels), it might be possible to have Bartlein made some A1 barrels. I recently sent @Frank Green an original 1970's vintage Adkinson M40A1 barrel to study. He's currently analyzing it and taking measurements for a personal project, but maybe he'd be willing to do a run of Bartlein M40A1 barrels if there was enough demand for them. He already makes the best reproduction circa 1966 M40 barrel you can currently purchase (measurements were taken from a real M40 barrel), so I think he could easily make an absolutely amazing reproduction A1 barrel!

What do you guys think about a Bartlein A1 barrel being offered to clone builders? Does anyone here have one of the new Schneider A1 barrels that was made by the new company owners? I've heard that the new Schneider barrels might have some changes, but I haven't been able to verify anything yet (I'll probably just have to order one and look it over). If anything has changed with the new Schneider barrels, I think a reproduction A1 barrel from Bartlein might be the best option. I'd really like to hear what you guys think, especially if anyone here has one of the new Schneider barrels that they could do a small review on.
Click to expand...
I have one that just showed up last month from Charlie’s. It’s still in the box but I’m headed out of town, so would be a week plus until I could mic’ it out for exact specs.

The rough finish is definitely on it just as I remember. And I was told it was requested by Quantico when I went through SSAC in ‘01 to leave it on there when the test barrels had them, all our issued guns with Schneider barrels had it as well.
 
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#329
USMCSGT0331 said:
Just a heads-up, but if you guys need an alternate source for an M40A1 barrel, and don't want to use the new Schneider ones (I don't know how the new ones stack up to the old Schneider barrels), it might be possible to have Bartlein made some A1 barrels. I recently sent @Frank Green an original 1970's vintage Adkinson M40A1 barrel to study. He's currently analyzing it and taking measurements for a personal project, but maybe he'd be willing to do a run of Bartlein M40A1 barrels if there was enough demand for them. He already makes the best reproduction circa 1966 M40 barrel you can currently purchase (measurements were taken from a real M40 barrel), so I think he could easily make an absolutely amazing reproduction A1 barrel!

What do you guys think about a Bartlein A1 barrel being offered to clone builders? Does anyone here have one of the new Schneider A1 barrels that was made by the new company owners? I've heard that the new Schneider barrels might have some changes, but I haven't been able to verify anything yet (I'll probably just have to order one and look it over). If anything has changed with the new Schneider barrels, I think a reproduction A1 barrel from Bartlein might be the best option. I'd really like to hear what you guys think, especially if anyone here has one of the new Schneider barrels that they could do a small review on.
Click to expand...
So see the attached chicken scratch drawing. Sorry I did it quick! I was able to get my hands on a M40a1 drawing and I have the A3 drawing as well.

So here is what I'm seeing.... The Atkinson A1 barrels measures....
1.159" diameter on the breech end and almost 4.6" long (this includes the length of the breech threads) then straight tapers to .909" @ 25" finish (it's like just shy of 25").

The A3 drawing is showing 1.20" breech diameter +/-.10 on the diameter tolerance x 5.25" long with a +.050" / -.010" on the length tolerance of the breech (this is before any thread or chamber work etc...) then it straight tapers to .875" at the muzzle with a muzzle diameter tolerance of +.050" / -.030". So the muzzle could be as big as .925" or as small as .845" per that drawing. This drawing shows a blank length of 25.250" Ref. so if I was doing the install work... I'd make it a 24" finish length. I'm assuming they are cutting 1" off the muzzle end.

On the A3 drawing it shows a 24" finished measured from the front of the recoil lug. So basically a 25" finish length from the breech end/face of the barrel.

So the muzzle diameter is within spec...on the Atkinson barrel but the breech diameter is under by .040" approx. and the breech length is short. What we don't know is what blank length was supplied by Atkinson to the USMC and how the RTE shop guy did the work etc...I/we also don't know what tolerances Atkinson held on the barrels for length and diameter. Most likely the barrels contour was done on a tracer lathe. Not a cnc lathe.

If the one drawing I have is correct for the A1 (I don’t have the complete packet for the A1 and I can’t see the drawing # but is dated 1998 and I was just told that was a preproduction drawing and is from the A2 packet! Supposedly the USMC still built/rebuilt M40A1 spec rifles up to 1999 so I’m assuming this one drawing is a late standard for the A1? So who knows without seeing a drawing from the late 70’s or early 80’s for the early issued/conversion to A1 I’m guessing here a little bit) that shows a breech length on the straight portion of 3.5” +/- .50”. This does not include the breech threaded area. So you would be adding in almost another 1” for the breech length. So the overall breech length could be 4” or up to 5”.

So right now I’m looking at three different drawings. Two for sure are A3 drawings dated 1999 and 2000 and the other I’m guessing is a late A1 drawing which would become the A2 that never happened. The one drawing I have is in the complete drawing packet for the A3 rifle. That’s the drawing that calls out 4 groove or 5 groove or 6 groove rifling. The sectional view of the bore shows a 4 groove though.

The other interesting notes that I noticed on the 2000 dated A3 drawing... was the bore and groove sizes spec's.

Bore size was spec'd at .2980" +.0022" / -.0000"
Groove spec was .3082" +.0004" with a minus tolerance of -.0020" which has to be a typo on the drawing. They probably meant -.0002".

Number of grooves where spec'd as... 4 groove, 5 groove or 6 groove! Equally spaced right hand twist with a turn of 1-12 twist.

I measured the bore and groove of the supplied Atkinson barrel. My measurements are as follows:
Bore = .3008"
Groove = .3089"
Number of grooves = 6

So technically as I'm guessing and comparing the Atkinson barrel to the one of the drawings...it's out of spec. It's uniform on the bore and groove size but out of spec. Bore finish is decent/nice for a used barrel and what I'm looking at.

The Atkinson barrels muzzle crown is a variation of the stepped recess. The step is .040" deep. The width of the high portion is about .160" but it has a slight angle/taper going down at the step. Probably from the insert/turning tool the guy used. No real chamfer at the bore edge. Was probably a sharp edge crown. If it is chamfered it is real slightly done. The crown edge does have wear/light damage to it.

Later, Frank
 

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#331
The other thing that is interesting… like with the stock, the scope and other parts…. They list on the drawing who the manufacturer is and they’re code and address information etc….

There is no recommended manufacturer for the barrel that I can find any where. So that tells me it was basically opened source to anyone that could make it the drawing spec.
 
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#332
IMG_1559.jpeg


IMG_1560.jpeg


IMG_1561.jpeg


IMG_1563.jpeg

My caliper is about 30 miles away in my storage unit, so a tape measure is the best I have at the moment. 29" OAL, 7/8" at the unfinished end, straight section at the breach looks to be about 3.5", but that's going off of where I can see a slight change in the surface finish and not caliper confirmed as the starting point of the taper. You can see the rough finish in the pics and definitely hear the "zing" singing at you when you slide your hand down the length.

Here's the link where I bought it from Charlie's, and @longshot2000 can perhaps give some other details on how they're spec'ing them from Schneider.
 
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#333
I just received the print copy by text.

M40A1 contour is as follows:

1.200” +.020”/.000” on the breech diameter x 3.000” long breech diameter then straight taper to .890” +.010”/.000” on the muzzle. Called out a 26.5” blank.

He will confirm that for me on Wednesday with a rifle built by the RTE guys back in the day that’s in a private collection. I’ve handled the rifle and have pic’s of it but never measured it. The barrel on the gun is a HS Precison made barrel.

Which is our #14 contour on our website.
 
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#335
The Atkinson barrels muzzle crown is a variation of the stepped recess. The step is .040" deep. The width of the high portion is about .160" but it has a slight angle/taper going down at the step. Probably from the insert/turning tool the guy used. No real chamfer at the bore edge. Was probably a sharp edge crown. If it is chamfered it is real slightly done.
Click to expand...
It's not just that old Atkinson muzzle crown that had some variation. Here's some pics I took back in 2016 of some of the last of the M40A1s kept at PWS. If you study them closely, you will see that almost all have some very small variations. I won't repeat what an active 2112 said about it, but suffice to say - these were hand-built over time and show some variation in machining, stamping, and a few odd things like a bipod stud and black buttpad...

PWS_M40A1s_2016_sml.JPG


Me thinks the thin crown to the right was not cut exactly to spec... (no idea about that random bipod stud, but anyhow...)

M40A1_muzzles1_bipod_stud_2016.jpg


M40A1_muzzles2_2016.JPG


The crown on the far right looked a little odd too...
M40A1_muzzles3_2016.JPG


In 2017 I noted that another real M40A1 had an interesting floorplate. This one drew some laughter by a 2112 when it was pointed out...

Quantico_M40A1s_May_2017_SuperGrade_v2.jpg


Fwiw, the latest barrel date that I observed was this one: July 2001.
Quantico_M40A1s_May_2017_2.JPG


Just some random pics on the M40A1 and some unique things about being hand-made over time...
 
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#336
As RG pointed out.... variations over time more than anything else.

The A2 drawing that I have or if you will a preproduction drawing for the A3.

The dimensions on the muzzle crown is as follows...

Counter bore depth of .075" with a 45 degree angle on the counterbore.

And with a .875" muzzle diameter as shown on the print the thin part of the is suppose to taper up to .750" diameter. So that thin/thick web area to the outside of the barrel is only about .0625" per the drawing. I'll post a pic of that... hang on....
 
#337
We always had variations of crown cuts on our guns, all depended on what was picked from Albany and sent to us when we needed a replacement as some would be 6 months old from last rebuild and others a decade plus.

And I could see SSIS instructors having PWS install a bipod stud as a trial gun to push for modifications to be made, or just for shits and giggles to tinker with on the range. They had a good bit of flexibility, being separated from each other by a parking lot and having a close working relationship always, to do some tweaks and “Hey bro, what do you think about …..”
 
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#347
Random Guy said:
It's not just that old Atkinson muzzle crown that had some variation. Here's some pics I took back in 2016 of some of the last of the M40A1s kept at PWS. If you study them closely, you will see that almost all have some very small variations.
Click to expand...

On Monday I had a private tour of the museum's holdings and Random Guy is 100% right. They had a handful of M40A1's and there were definite variations in them.

After seeing those rifles I would not in anyway get out a set of calipers for a barrel. There were some considerable differences. Just get it close and that would be clone correct in this case.
 
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#348
Frank Green said:
I'll give you a similar story....

At BR supershoot one year a shooter (I'm with holding the shooters name) brought his wife along. She would go down to his gun room once in a while. One time she asked him... how much do those barrels cost? He told her $50 each. Now mind you he probably had about 40-50 on his shelves. Some used some brand new... but there is a qty. sitting there. So at the shoot one year she goes along and goes into one of the retailers tents. Sees a sign saying barrels on sale for $XXX dollars.... she yells out his name and says get over here right now! He says what? She points to the sign and says you told me those are $50 each!

Almost got him a divorce! LOL!
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When he dies she will sell them for $50 each. 😂😂😂😂 I tell my wife it costs 25% more than I paid for it. So if you see my stuff for sale you’ll know what happened to me after I told her the price. 😂😂😂
 
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