Rifle Scopes New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

#253
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SugarBooger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the ATACR, at what magnification is the mil used for ranging?

Please excuse my limited experience with SFP scopes, got real spoiled with a FFP
</div></div>
You can use the scope at any magnification. The reticle is "true" at 25x. You'll just have to use the appropriate factor if on any other power. For example half the mag range, you would double.
 
#256
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grizzdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm kinda digging the ATACR scope, for less than $300 more than the nxs you get the extra 20% elevation travel, wider field of view, the .1 mil subtensions for ranging, better clarity? not sure on that one, and a different illumination system. This sounds like a good deal, I also think the mil reticle is not cluttering up the view like the horus does. Any thoughts on this Low Light? I'll be in the market for a new scope in a couple months, I was planning to get another nxs until I saw the ATACR. </div></div>

Did I miss the prices somewhere?
 
#257
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Europtic has me listed on their site.

Thank you for clarifications.

The ATACR is looking like a really attractive replacement to what I'm currently running. Can't wait to see the video reviews and more feedback post SHOT
 
#260
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Heres what I like to do before a purchase like this ask yourself the question for each of its features do you need it.

Example I am looking for another scope cause i only has a 5.5-22 NXS Mil zero so i would like another one. Cause switching scopes between two rifles is a pain.
Do I need a FFP scope? No i shoot steel, paper and animals, yes it would be nice to have but its not worth another 1300 to me. Do you really need 20 mil per rev no. My point is yes NF could have come out with a 5.5-22 FFP but they didn't so this is what we have don't like it well save a bit more money up for the beast. My money is going for the ATACR only 300 more than a regualar NXS for a extra 20MOA and 3x with a 34mm tube defiantly good value.
 
#261
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Another thing I like about the ATACR is the little inverted T for ranging. I think it would be an advantage over the MLR reticle if I had to range objects at 2000 yards with no range finder.

Chris, do you know if the eye piece is marked for 1/2 magnification value like the NXS is? Or marked at different values?
 
#263
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Well, I'll be putting my NXS up for sale in 3-4 months to replace it with the BEAST. I've been waiting a long time for a FFP NightForce to be released and while I would like to have had it come in a little lower priced, R&D costs money so...it is what it is.

I have no 'need' for such an optic but I like nice toys so...it shall be mine.

I'll have to sell the GDI mount as well and replace it with a 34mm, not to mention the Flatline Ops level but...hey, whose counting money anyway? Ha!

Thanks for all of the info on this, Frank. I'm looking forward to a review!
 
#266
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

just watched the video. i guess its been discussed, but i dont know what to think of the lever. it seems like a good idea but my issue is that its another thing for your brain to remember to do. here is what has to happen in your head. "i need 5.3 mils, ok i need to go to 5.2 and flip the lever. 5.2 check, flip lever check." maybe with training it will become intuitive. or maybe i'm just slow. it just seems like an additional step that can be missed. im not going to poo poo it until i use it though, i know the NF guys test their stuff and i have faith in their T/E process.
 
#267
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Busby.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Video from SHOT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpjxZ-8_2Io </div></div>

Kind of sad he didn't even mention the ATACR, like it's the retarded brother of the beast and an embarrassment.
confused.gif
 
#268
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: axeltow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just watched the video. i guess its been discussed, but i dont know what to think of the lever. it seems like a good idea but my issue is that its another thing for your brain to remember to do. here is what has to happen in your head. "i need 5.3 mils, ok i need to go to 5.2 and flip the lever. 5.2 check, flip lever check." maybe with training it will become intuitive. or maybe i'm just slow. it just seems like an additional step that can be missed. im not going to poo poo it until i use it though, i know the NF guys test their stuff and i have faith in their T/E process. </div></div>
+1

I'm wondering whether the lever automatically flips back to "0" if you rotate the turret? That way you flip only when you want to add 0.1mils (or 0.25MOA) and it resets itself when you go to another setting.

I'd like a SHOT report on how the clicks feel.

BTW, the BEAST must have been beta tested! We just don't know enough about it yet.
 
#269
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: axeltow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just watched the video. i guess its been discussed, but i dont know what to think of the lever. it seems like a good idea but my issue is that its another thing for your brain to remember to do. here is what has to happen in your head. "i need 5.3 mils, ok i need to go to 5.2 and flip the lever. 5.2 check, flip lever check." maybe with training it will become intuitive. or maybe i'm just slow. it just seems like an additional step that can be missed. im not going to poo poo it until i use it though, i know the NF guys test their stuff and i have faith in their T/E process. </div></div>
+1

I'm wondering whether the lever automatically flips back to "0" if you rotate the turret? That way you flip only when you want to add 0.1mils (or 0.25MOA) and it resets itself when you go to another setting.

I'd like a SHOT report on how the clicks feel.

BTW, the BEAST must have been beta tested! We just don't know enough about it yet. </div></div>

Played with it this morning during our meeting with them. The clicks are just as positive as anything else in the line. For comparrison there were 8 scopes in there along with the beast.
 
#270
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grizzdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thing I like about the ATACR is the little inverted T for ranging. I think it would be an advantage over the MLR reticle if I had to range objects at 2000 yards with no range finder.

Chris, do you know if the eye piece is marked for 1/2 magnification value like the NXS is? Or marked at different values? </div></div>
I didn't look. However I'm sure it's set up just like the other NXS scopes. But I will confirm tomorrow. The mil-r is a great looking reticle. I'm really excited about the ATACR. Shipping on them will be in a couple of weeks.
 
#272
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: axeltow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just watched the video. i guess its been discussed, but i dont know what to think of the lever. it seems like a good idea but my issue is that its another thing for your brain to remember to do. here is what has to happen in your head. "i need 5.3 mils, ok i need to go to 5.2 and flip the lever. 5.2 check, flip lever check." maybe with training it will become intuitive. or maybe i'm just slow. it just seems like an additional step that can be missed. im not going to poo poo it until i use it though, i know the NF guys test their stuff and i have faith in their T/E process.</div></div>

It is a good point. I have a Premier and an NXS. I like the MTC on the Premier, but the downside is that the clicks are so close together, the adjustment after the mil detent is difficult. I love the click spacing on my NXS, but you are turning for a long time to get up to 10 mils. This seems like a way to have it both ways. But could I get used to counting in .2's and then have an extra level to get down to a single .1? It seems kind of counter-intuitive, but who knows? Probably a training issue.

BTW... it was mentioned here that the Premier toggle was not called a gimmick. It actually was. Someone coined it the "zipper." I like being able to zero without tools in theory. In practice, the zipper is pretty temperamental and I have chipped the coating off of the toggle trying to flip it for adjustments. Even when I am done adjusting, I am not sure if my adjustments "took."

If this is successful, it rolls up my favorite aspects of both my Premier and my NXS. Even if it is Nightforce, I am not buying early serial number anything anymore. I'll let y'all be the guinea pigs.
 
#277
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

The earliest you'll see any in commercial hands is late May or early June. We got to play with the variants and it's a pretty slick scope. We ordered a lot as I'm sure others did, but they're going to begin trickling out after they fulfill some military orders first.

-Sean
 
#279
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Played with it yesterday . It didn't seem anything that special other then it had a locking turret and had a fine adjustment lever....
 
#280
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Played with it yesterday . It didn't seem anything that special other then it had a locking turret and had a fine adjustment lever....</div></div>

Did you get behind it, or just finger it?
 
#281
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Looked through it but it's very hard to get any kind of perspective on how good the glass is on the convention floor. The lighting isn't that optimal and you really can't see that far.
 
#282
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looked through it but it's very hard to get any kind of perspective on how good the glass is on the convention floor. The lighting isn't that optimal and you really can't see that far.</div></div>

I am more interested in how "forgiving" the eye relief/eye box is and what you thought of the parellex. Hence: Did you get behind it..on the range. How did the adjustments feel, very close -S&b ... Premier...or other... positive?

Thanks
 
#283
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I really didn't have any issues with the sight picture unlike some of the March scope I have looked through in the past. The scope does click and feel like a NF, nit mushy, solid clicks, but not hard to adjust. Not hard like s&b or Premier where you can blow by the number since they are much stiffer to move the turret. I did notice the the locking mechanism is sometimes hard to press down on . The windage locker, I couldn't feel the button being pressed down but it was engaged.
 
#286
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I got behind it and played with it on Tuesday. The glass was really nice.

The elevation turret on this scope is 0.2 mils per click. Engaging the 0.1 mil lever simply adds a +0.1 mil offset to the value shown on the turret. Another way to look at it is: if the lever not engaged, the clicks will be even (0.0, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, etc..), but if it is engaged, they will be odd (0.1, 0.3, 0.5, 0.7, etc...) and 0.1 mil more than what the turret reads.

I found their elevation turret locking feature a bit cumbersome to use, the sales guy was having some difficulty engaging it and disengaging it. Today (Thursday) none or the turret locks on any of the beast scopes in the Nightforce booth or the ones in the AI booth seem to work anymore. I went and checked the Leupold and S&B scopes and they seem to be holding up.

I think I will wait and see if they come out with an FFP version of the ATACR...
 
#289
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suspect there is some tunneling and here's why.

If there is no tunneling, the FOV at 100 yards should be inversely proportional to the magnification. Example: If the FOV is 4 ft at 25x, then it should be 20 ft at 5x.

Now look at the FOV numbers for the ATACR:

4.92 ft @ 25x
17.96 ft @ 5x (should be 5 x 4.92ft = 24.6 ft if no tunneling)

And for the BEAST:

4.92 ft @ 25x
18.7 ft @ 5x (should be 5 x 4.92ft = 24.6 ft if no tunneling)

These numbers don't indicate whether the tunneling is gradual or sudden (like in the 5-25x S&B).

A good question for NF at SHOT might be whether tunneling (gradual or sudden) is an unavoidable aspect of scope design. An example is the use of light baffles to avoid internal reflections at low magnification - these baffles might cut off a bit of the FOV, but are necessary. </div></div>

FWIW the BEAST I looked through today at SHOT gradually tunneled from minimum magnification through about 6x. I'm so used to it in my scopes that I did not find it a big deal.
 
#290
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got behind it and played with it on Tuesday. The glass was really nice.

The elevation turret on this scope is 0.2 mils per click. Engaging the 0.1 mil lever simply adds a +0.1 mil offset to the value shown on the turret. Another way to look at it is: if the lever not engaged, the clicks will be even (0.0, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, etc..), but if it is engaged, they will be odd (0.1, 0.3, 0.5, 0.7, etc...) and 0.1 mil more than what the turret reads.

</div></div>

Thanks for that input. Although I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how the necessity to manipulate a turret AND a lever to make an ele. correction is somehow more advantageous than just dialing a turret right to the dope required?
Can anyone shed some light as to how this new turret/lever adjustment is a 'game changer' for making a ele. correction??? Is it faster? More intuitive? I'm failing to grasp the logic behind the design...
 
#291
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Each click in the turret is more adjustment than a .1 mil turret. This means that with the same mechanical turret you can travel twice as far with a single turn. They add in the lever so you can get your final adjustment at the .1 mil amount.

The advantage is the amount of adjustment you get out of 1 turn without sacrificing the .1 mil accuracy.
 
#292
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how the necessity to manipulate a turret AND a lever to make an ele. correction is somehow more advantageous than just dialing a turret right to the dope required?
Can anyone shed some light as to how this new turret/lever adjustment is a 'game changer' for making a ele. correction??? Is it faster? More intuitive? I'm failing to grasp the logic behind the design...
</div></div>
The goal was making an elevation turret with 20 mils/turn with separation between click that would (1) reduce overshoot when dialing in and (2) make it easier to read the dial. For example, the 0.1 mil clicks on some S&B and Premier scopes require extra care in reading and setting.

The solution is to have one-half the number of clicks (0.2 mil per click instead of 0.1) so they are twice as far apart. Having a lever to add 0.1 mil allows you to have the equivalent of 0.1 mil/click.

Hindsight is wonderful; I think a three-position lever would have been great (like the old Unertl) with left (-0.1 mils), center (0 mils) and right (+0.1 mils). You could operate it without looking and it would be a very fast adjustment.
 
#293
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Hindsight is wonderful; I think a three-position lever would have been great (like the old Unertl) with left (-0.1 mils), center (0 mils) and right (+0.1 mils). You could operate it without looking and it would be a very fast adjustment.</div></div>

This is how I had hoped it would work...
 
#295
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I'm going to be as honest as possible hopefully without pissing anyone off.

I'm a Nightforce junkie. I've had every major brand of scope take a dump on me except NF. I've been using F1s on my competition rifles ever since i was disappointed by S&Bs last year. The F1s work great and always hold zero. They're nothing fancy and they just work. My only complaint is lack of magnification for precision paper stages and target ID stuff. Being able to spot bullet holes in paper at 300yds away with a S&B and walk your shots into the 10ring is a HUGE advantage in what i do. The 15x F1s work great for everything else though.

I went to SHOT convinced i was about to buy 2 BEASTS. In fact i'd say getting my hands on the BEAST for a preview was %75 of the reason i even went to SHOT. I could hardly contain myself from the excitement.

I really liked the overall scope. The illumination is much improved. The ocular turns in true NF fashion. I loved the little locking detent on the windage knob. The reticle is totally do-able. I won't use the elevation lock much but it's nice to have on there when crawling through obstacle courses and stuff. My only complaint is that damn 20mil knob...

Honestly who needs 20mils in a single revolution anyway? 10 mils is enough to make it to 1k for most small arms calibers we shoot anyway. When i first picked up the MIL BEAST and looked at that knob i thought i had grabbed the MOA version just because of the lack of hashes between the full mils. It totally mind fucked me for a second. Now..when i took a second to think about it then it made sense but i still don't think a 20 mil knob that adjusts in .2mil increments with a .1mil flip lever is any faster then just a regular 10mil knob that adjusts in .1mils. The 20mil knob fixes a problem that was never really present unless you're shooting tactical matches with a 375 or a 408. I don't see how it improves speed at all and the biggest thing for me is it's one more thing on the stage check list to forget or mess up. KISS applies here...especially in competitive shooting. I've never fought in combat but i can imagine extra levers would be a hindrance there as well.

Here's what i'll suggest to NF (even though i know my opinion means nothing in this world). Everyones asking for a FFP ATACR. I say screw that and make the BEAST more appealing to us. I personally loved most everything about the BEAST. The improvements over the NXS are nice. Soo... turn the knob into a standard 10mil knob that adjusts in .1mils like everything else...then either ditch the lever and bring the scope down a couple hundred if possible or if thats not possible then change the flip lever to adjust in .05mils.. there's been times where .1 has just been a little too much for me and i can see how a 1/20th click would make me feel a little better. Then NF can truly market it as a fine adjustment. It seems that just changing the adjustments from .2/.1 to .1/.05 would be simple enough and they probably won't need to go back to the drawing board to make it happen.

These changes alone would make me happy enough to follow through with ordering the 2 i had planned. I talked to a lot of people in the precision rifle community at SHOT and all i talked to had the same opinion about that elevation system being to much to worry about in a fast paced match. I hope NF is listening. I expressed my concerns to a rep at the show and he seemed fully convinced that his system was the way to go. I went back to the booth about 3 times and spoke to different reps each time just trying to see if i could wrap my head around elevation system of the BEAST. I'll be using my F1s until NF either changes the 20mil/.2click knob on the BEAST or makes a FFP ATACR.

Please don't bash me for giving my opinion. I admit to not knowing everything but i do use my scopes in more practice/matches then a big majority of the members here. If you agree with me then let's let NF know our concerns.
 
#296
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

That is a honest opinion, and look at it this way, when you talk to Crane / the Navy which uses a lot of NF, they look at this scope to go on a 300WM Or 338LM.

The 20 Mils makes sense.

As far as the fast paced match comment, well okay I supposed if I gave you the scope blind and said go shoot a match you'd have a problem, what what fasted pace stage are you dialing ? And if so, won't .2 get you there faster than .1, I think we all know 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, every bit as easy as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... than the lever just becomes odd or even. If you need .9 mils you go, 2, 4, 6, 8, Lever 9... You can hit the lever with the same hand as the one turning the knob.

I would assume someone buying it and using it in a match would have practiced for at least 1 day before. That is more than enough time to figure it out.

Still fast paced stages, usually mean you are holding and not dialing at least all the stages I have shot that are fast paced. Most cases you are always going UP or Down in a linear fashion, not going back and forth.

I could see someone bumping the lever in competition and added .1 to their dope and on some small targets, yep you have a miss. That can be an issue.

Most agreed the ATACR was a great all around scope, except for being SPF, an F1 model based off the same would be perfect for 99% of the guy out there.
 
#297
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most agreed the ATACR was a great all around scope, except for being SPF, an F1 model based off the same would be perfect for 99% of the guy out there. </div></div>

I was hoping NF would have gone this route.

The BEAST seems like a great scope, but I feel it's over-engineered for the most of us. I bet the majority of people would have been satisfied enough if the ATACR was FFP instead of SFP. But, who knows? A lot of new products are looked down upon at first , but we learn to like them.
 
#298
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Lowlight quick question on the operation of the beast.

Say if I wanted to dial to 1.7mil I would dial to 1.6 and then flick the lower lever and that would kick it the extra .1 to 1.7?

And I'm assuming if I wanted to drop to 1.5, I would rotate the knob to 1.4 then flick the lever to add the additional .1 to take it to 1.5?

Is that the basics of how it operates?
 
#299
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: green338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Most agreed the ATACR was a great all around scope, except for being SPF, an F1 model based off the same would be perfect for 99% of the guy out there. </div></div>

I was hoping NF would have gone this route.

The BEAST seems like a great scope, but I feel it's over-engineered for the most of us. I bet the majority of people would have been satisfied enough if the ATACR was FFP instead of SFP. But, who knows? A lot of new products are looked down upon at first , but we learn to like them. </div></div>

Same here.
 
#300
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Agree with everything you said, dirt racer. I don't need 20 mils in a single turn either and Rarely dial into turn 2 of my Bender. Basically what LL said is they didn't design the BEAST for us. It really seems Bushnell is the company after our market segment. Nor the ATACR. I'd like to get behind one to see how I like it, but I doubt it will happen around here anytime soon. I need one more scope and I guess I'm going to just wait and see if anything happens with a FFP option for the ATACR.
 
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