New press turned .5MOA gun into 2MOA gun?

C

codemancode

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Minuteman
Oct 21, 2012
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Kansas
#1
Hit the range with a new set of 100 reloads to find i couldn't get groups better than about 2" at 100 yards. My rifle is a 0.5" shooter any day of the week so i was pretty surprised. Absolutely nothing about the load/rifle/optic has changed. The only change i made was the press i loaded on. Previously i've used a rock chucker and i've switched to a Lee classic turret press. I've noticed that the alignment of the ram to the dies is a little off. When I raise the ram to the sizing dies, the case enters at an angle every single time no matter how i orient the shell holder or the turret (FL, Neck, Body, all the same issue). The auto index is disengaged btw. Can this slop in the press cause this kind of accuracy degradation? I plan on loading my next set back on the rock chucker to see if the problem is fixed. Any ideas

Also:
checked all torque specs (rings, action)- Good
Same lots of powder, Primers, Brass, and Bullets
Barrel/chamber thoroughly cleaned (shot clean, fowled, and super fowled with same result)
 
#2
You answered your own question and your Lee press is making banana shaped cartridges. Measure your case and bullet runout on both presses. The base of your cases on the Lee press will no longer be 90 degrees to the axis of the bore, and your bullets are tipped off center with the bore.

runout_zpsfe87d011.jpg


Normally this happens when the cartridge case has unequal case wall thickness and the case warps when fired making the "banana" shaped case. You are pre-warping your cases before they are fired with a bad reloading press and need to take it back and get your money back. I bought my Rockchucker press in 1973 and its still going strong and making accurate ammo.

A shooting buddy of the compeditive shooter Germán A. Salazar said the following at his website:
The Rifleman's Journal: Articles Index

"I get my best accuracy when the case fits the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case".

Meaning he full length resizes his cases to give them a little wiggle room and allow the bullet to be self centering in the bore. And this isn't going to happen with warped and bent cartridge cases.
 
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#3
James n TN said:
Then you're doing something way wrong with three floating points on a press loading ammo you have something way wrong. I litterly get 0 runout on all my match ammo I load and factory stuff I clean up necks and can do same

sent from Droid RAZR Maxx HD using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You need a new runout gauge or new glasses if your reading "zero" runout on a Dillon press.
 
#4
I'm generally in the .002 and sometimes .001-.0005 but I've never seen .0000 runout out of any press. That's pretty impressive. Can't say I think it makes a shit of difference at .002 or so. I can't see it in any groups. I almost guarantee most chamber mouths are .002-.004 anyhow.
 
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#5
.001 equals 1moa at a grand? Just where did you come up with this and exactly how are you quantifiyng it? Do you do your own barrel work and chambers? If not have you wwatched your barrel be chambered and put a dti in the chamber when it was done? I like a perfect .0000 chamber but I just don't see a lot of them that I've chucked up yet some amazing groups are still shot with them.
 
#6
I have been reloading for over 46 years and have never seen "zero" runout, I'm wondering if your related to the Mayor of Toronto or just borrowed his pipe. Why don't you go to Accurateshooter.com SHOOTERS' FORUM - Index and tell the pros about your exploits. I'm sure they will get a good laugh from your statement and your "benchrest quality" Dillon press.
 
#8
Not that I have ever measured any of James n TN loads for run out but I have shot a few matches with him in the past. I can tell you without hesitation he knows what he is doing and he has indeed held a record or two in IBS long range competition.
I would ask the same question as redneck, why did you go from RCBS to Lee?
 
#9
James n TN said:
To OP my suggestion be take the press back and get a refund and purchase something more accurate. You stated you saw what's the problem and now you know is much easier than pulling ya hair out fighting it out.
Click to expand...

You should have said this in your first post instead of jumping your Dillon press in a single bound and telling everyone you have a big red S on your chest. What does your Dillon press have to do with the OPs problem, "NOTHING" nor does your "fantastic" ZERO runout on a press designed for making large quanities of ammo not used by the majority of serious competitive shooters.
 
#10
Lee does make SOME decent products, for those budget-obligated. That said, most of their presses I've seen built after 2005-ish (no idea if there is reason behind this time frame) have been severely lacking when compared to redding, hornady, forster... Rcbs, in recent years only, is not my first choice on presses; but Lee would be one of my last for precision.
 
#12
It's impossible to use a Lee Turret without questioning the "slop" in the tool head. Because only one die is in use at a time, the toolhead necessarily lifts at an angle. So I went looking for another press that didn't allow that to happen.

After watching pretty much all the presses in action (except specifically the Dillon 1050), I noticed all but the Hornady LnL AP exhibited movement in the toolhead on the upstroke of the ram. I did not observe any lifting of the Hornady bushings. If there were to be any such lifting after prolonged use, each die would move independently of the others.

Lots of folks with experience say that "floating" stuff allows everything to get into alignment. Perhaps it can - not gonna argue that. I also know that due to constant molecular motion, it's theoretically possible for all the oxygen to suddenly rush to one corner of your room, suffocating you. Just never seen it happen lol.

So I bought the Hornady.
 
#13
codemancode said:
Hit the range with a new set of 100 reloads to find i couldn't get groups better than about 2" at 100 yards. My rifle is a 0.5" shooter any day of the week so i was pretty surprised. Absolutely nothing about the load/rifle/optic has changed. The only change i made was the press i loaded on. Previously i've used a rock chucker and i've switched to a Lee classic turret press. I've noticed that the alignment of the ram to the dies is a little off. When I raise the ram to the sizing dies, the case enters at an angle every single time no matter how i orient the shell holder or the turret (FL, Neck, Body, all the same issue). The auto index is disengaged btw. Can this slop in the press cause this kind of accuracy degradation?
Click to expand...

As already mentioned...toss the LEE press if you want a turret press.

I always recall a post I once read about LEE products...the poster stated; "LEE could engineer an item down to the point that it barely did it's intended job. Then add an additional nickle's worth of upgrade, and market it".

They DO market a few noteworthy items but NOT where I would look if ACCURACY was my main goal.

FN in MT
 
#14
Has a guy I used to work with ask if the Forster Coax was that good? He was using an old Lyman T-Mag turret press. Let him borrow my press for a couple weeks. He then purchased a Coax. Yes the press can make a difference.
 
#15
0 runout? hahaha this is funny. he must be loading like a 1k rounds, culls them all to find one that has almost zero, then reloads another 1000 to find another. Only way to get zero runout over and over is using the tool that chucks up the case and uses the pusher to change the position of the bullet. and thats not a preferred method.
 
#16
Rotortuner said:
0 runout? hahaha this is funny. he must be loading like a 1k rounds, culls them all to find one that has almost zero, then reloads another 1000 to find another. Only way to get zero runout over and over is using the tool that chucks up the case and uses the pusher to change the position of the bullet. and thats not a preferred method.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that he's just blowing some smoke. It's called 'puffing' in legal circles.

I've reloaded on a 550b for 19 years. I have the Bersin concentricity/nudger gage for the 7RM/300WM/30'06 families, with a Swiss made dial gage that reads to 4/10,000 and at least with 7RM stuff loaded on Dillon dies and later Redding bushing dies, I get 'some runout'--less with the Redding dies and more of the carts, closer to zero, but it's still there.

If you look at the Neco gage above, that manual was written by famed shooter M.L. McPherson and he's an advocate of runout not being entirely caused by the mechanical loading of ammunition, but also partly caused by brass with thicker/thinner walls. In the description in the picutre above, you can see #1 is 'banana shaped' brass.

There is nothing one can do to their press/dies, to fix this kind of runout, unless you have something like the Bersin gage or Hornady concentricity gage/nudger/fixer, so one would think that James gets at least 'some' runout just by chance, right?

Anyhow, I'm always leery of guys coming in here and jawing about this, or that, where the law of averages would seem to dictate that events will never be perfect.

It's like the guy cherry picking a good group out of 20 fired groups and saying that the gun will shoot X, Y or Z all day long.

Chris
 
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#17
Bad press. Getting into reloading and shooting, Lee has served me VERY well. I bought a Savage 11 Trophy Hunter XP, (lower quality savage 11, even has a little different bolt). I have a Lee anniversary kit and nothing else. I was running up loads with IMR4831 and A-maxes and I was pegging just under 1 MOA at 100 and I am extremely inexperienced with long range shooting. I only really altered the OAL a bit and kept it at a modest load. Unfortunately with the recent lack of powder I haven't shot much and am saving whats left for a little while. The total cost of the gun for me was $550-150 for selling the scope, used my Burris Fullfield II at $180 and I paid a little extra for the Lee kit to buy it from the dealer who also showed me some basics, $150. That is a total of $730 for reloading supplies a cheap yet reliable scope and a savage to shoot under 1MOA. I have a stockade stock on the way which will hopefully add to the accuracy, $200. New barrels aren't terribly priced either. Almost hard to believe how accurate you can shoot for how cheap. Of course most of you guys are on a whole different level with accuracy, but for someone just starting out, not too expensive to shoot some groups.
 
#18
#19
For sure. Lee does make good stuff that is aimed at a price point. I also have loaded some very good ammo with lee products, but generally speaking their quality does not equal other makers. So, to the OP, you have an answer (at least a place to start), and I have a related question. Is there a method, or maybe just a basic procedure to measure how square/true/concetric one's press is? I do not have a dial indicator, but I bet any response to my question will involve one. How would the machinists here go about doing that?
 
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#20
I'm too old and have used too much equioment to have any blind emotional attachement to or against any inanimate objects and loading tool brands are about as inanimate as we can get. I also know virtually any reloading tools properly chosen for the task can do excellant work if they are set and used correctly. Lee makes the widest variety of presses available and most of them are aimed - properly - at the occasional reloader and that should be recognised as a good thing. Instead, Lee gets sneered at by elitist tool snobs as if everything they make is effectively the same as their tiny "Reloader" press and that's simply untrue.

Lee's Classic Cast is perhaps the biggest, strongest and most precisely machined single stage of it's general type, at any price. The same body is used for their Classic Turret but for pete's sake, it's a turret press! No one in their right mind should expect BR precision from a common market turret press! A turret can be used to produce excellant ammo but it's certainly not as easy as doing it on a precisely machined single stage and even they aren't perfect; that's why serious BR guys usually prefer arbor presses!

It's clear that Codeman's press has an indexing issue but we don't know where on the compass his cases tilt and that matters. East or west is a typical turret problem and the fix may be simple. Anyway, no one knows at this point if the press is indeed the culprit or if it's something entirely different. But the obvious indexing problem needs to be corrected and tested before our happy web experts start their usual blind knee-jerk condemnations of anything.

Anyone thinking he's consistantly producing zero runout ammo in threaded dies just isn't measuring his runout correctly no matter what press is used. And anyone even suggesting zero runout might translate to zero MOA grops at 1,000 yards has more internal error than just runout. Fact is, runout in thousanths does not translate to any specific MOA at any range, the rifle controls that. The chamber itself will limit the max runout a chambered round can have.
 
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#21
Fuzzball said:
I'm too old and have used too much equioment to have any blind emotional attachement to or against any inanimate objects and loading tool brands are about as inanimate as we can get. I also know virtually any reloading tools properly chosen for the task can do excellant work if they are set and used correctly. Lee makes the widest variety of presses available and most of them are aimed - properly - at the occasional reloader and that should be recognised as a good thing. Instead, Lee gets sneered at by elitist tool snobs as if everything they make is effectively the same as their tiny "Reloader" press and that's simply untrue.

Lee's Classic Cast is perhaps the biggest, strongest and most precisely machined single stage of it's general type, at any price. The same body is used for their Classic Turret but for pete's sake, it's a turret press! No one in their right mind should expect BR precision from a common market turret press! A turret can be used to produce excellant ammo but it's certainly not as easy as doing it on a precisely machined single stage and even they aren't perfect; that's why serious BR guys usually prefer arbor presses!

It's clear that Codeman's press has an indexing issue but we don't know where on the compass his cases tilt and that matters. East or west is a typical turret problem and the fix may be simple. Anyway, no one knows at this point if the press is indeed the culprit or if it's something entirely different. But the obvious indexing problem needs to be corrected and tested before our happy web experts start their usual blind knee-jerk condemnations of anything.

Anyone thinking he's consistantly producing zero runout ammo in threaded dies just isn't measuring his runout correctly no matter what press is used. And anyone even suggesting zero runout might translate to zero MOA grops at 1,000 yards has more internal error than just runout. Fact is, runout in thousanths does not translate to any specific MOA at any range, the rifle controls that. The chamber itself will limit the max runout a chambered round can have.
Click to expand...

Fuzzball, thank you for such great insight and wisdom. I like the way you put things into perspective.
 
#22
bigbear_98 said:
Tennessee Tack-Driver

F-Class TR Tactical .308
Click to expand...

Just because you have several "world records" doesn't mean you know how to shoot. I mean it's IBS. Is that even sanctioned? And who's or what world was the record set. I mean come on. I think the people who have spun a tube or loaded a round or two would know best right. They wouldn't unnecessarily just say someone is full of it just because that person accomplished things that they couldn't. What "world" do you live on? Lmao.
I'm sure if you moved the decimal point over enough one will never have zero, but as a matter of practical accura y yes I believe you can get to "0". Not me though.
It is sad that some would just go off attacking a member rather than just disagreeing and offering the op their opinion. We need and benefit from the truly great shooters in the world.
Mine is I like some lee stuff but "Chuck" the press, pun intended.
 
#23
James n TN

This posting isn't about you or your Dillon press and 99.999% of your comments have nothing to do with the OP problem.

Stay on topic and stop patting yourself on the back, YOUR comments are the ones that sidetracked and hijacked this entire thread.

This posting is about a defective press that needs to be sent back to Lee for a replacement and NOT your "fantastic" zero runout.
 
#24
codemancode said:
...i've switched to a Lee classic turret press. I've noticed that the alignment of the ram to the dies is a little off. When I raise the ram to the sizing dies, the case enters at an angle every single time no matter how i orient the shell holder or the turret (FL, Neck, Body, all the same issue).
Click to expand...

Loosen the three (hex head) bolts at the top of the uprights (that connect the turret to the base), realign (properly align) the turret with the base, tighten the three bolts. Have you tried this?
 
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#26
I'm completely on board with James and his MOJO, whatever he chooses to do, (apparently) it's working. Now, if we could get on track and ignore all those hall monitors with 46 years of experience, (big whoopie, we are tired of hearing about it) everyone would be happy. Also, people that worry about staying on topic = control freaks.

I know guys that swear by their turret presses, but I'm always skeptical. And, by the way, when I worry about runout I use my arbor press and my chamber type seating dies. If it ain't exactly zero, it's close enough to where it doesn't matter, for what I do. BB
 
#27
I would be shocked if a box of ammo from one press got a big difference in group size from a box of ammo from another press, with all the components and dies being the same.

I would believe that the bore got Copper fouled, since ammo from the last press was used.
I would believe that the wind increased, since ammo from the last press was used.
I would believe that you switched to cheap bullets, since ammo from the last press was used.
I would believe that you used an expander ball in the resizing step so the ball got trapped in the case and expanded while pulling, since ammo from the last press was used.
 
#29
jimB and biged had good inputs, yes, there is an alignment procedure for the press. It makes high quality ammo. Lee did a great job on both the Classic Cast and the Classic Turret. I'm not a fan of their Classic bushing press. Listening to the press snobs makes me giggle because I outshoot them at the range all the time. Handloading is all about technique and learning how to properly use the equipment you have. The devil is in the details, take the time to learn your equipment. You will get it figured out.
 
#32
That's a good question, I've never seen any data from controlled tests that relate a specific amount of runout to a specific loss in accuracy. We all know it's not good but what are the specific effects? Probably too many variables to ever know. To the OP, did you verify seating depth is the same new to old?
 
#34
codemancode said:
Previously i've used a rock chucker and i've switched to a Lee classic turret press. I've noticed that the alignment of the ram to the dies is a little off. When I raise the ram to the sizing dies, the case enters at an angle every single time no matter how i orient the shell holder or the turret
Click to expand...

Two things are happening because the shell holder is not aligned with the die.

1. The case will be warped and the base of the case is not aligned and will not be 90 degrees to the axis of the bore.
2. When the expander ball is pulled through the neck the case is tilted in the shell holder and the necks will be pulled off center inducing even more runout.

The OP needs to center the shell holder, allow the case to float or move in the shell holder and stop making warped bent ammunition.

Below, the black line is the axis of the bore with the case centered in the chamber. The red line on the base of the case represents the warped base of the case, if the case was upright it would look like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The red line on the neck represents the neck being pulled of center by the expander ball as the tilted case is pulled through the die.

The bolt face will cause the case to tilt in the chamber and the bent neck will add insult to injury and increase bullet runout even more, and the bullet will be out of alignment with the bore when fired.

rifle-case-runout_zpsbc66b2e8.jpg
 
#35
Well, that's good info and all, but I never had a press with that kind of problem so can't say? I actually like a little slop in the shell holder. I do know the expander can sometimes distort the neck on the down stroke but I use a nylon brush in the necks with a trace of WD40 on it and the extraction is noticeably smoother.

I think it's time for the OP to get back in here with an update assuring us NOTHING CHANGED, except the Rockchucker vs Lee Turret vs back to the Rockchucker. BB
 
#37
codemancode said:
When I raise the ram to the sizing dies, the case enters at an angle every single time no matter how i orient the shell holder or the turret
Click to expand...

The shell holder and ram are NOT indexing and aligning and centering properly with the resizing die and he is making bent, warped, banana shaped cases and the bullet is NOT aligned with the bore.

alignment_zpsda6fbb08.jpg
 
#38
A) Any make press can get through quality control with a glaring error.

B) If you are shooting your ammo in a SAAMI chamber, small runout numbers may not be earning you anything on the target.

C) Floating toolheads are usually driven to full up/down by cartridge friction in the die(s) before the up/down stroke reaches full extension, and should end up performing very similar to a single stage press. If there is a die/ram alignment problem, it is highly unlikely that the floating toolhead is contributing significantly to the problem.

Greg
 
#40
Update:
I appreciate all of the replays here. Lots of good stuff to consider. The visuals made a lot of sense so thanks for that bigedp51.

I've burned though about 50 rounds at various ranges (mostly 100yards) with the same huge groups.

My plan is to switch back to my rockchucker on my next batch as a control. I"m also going to perform some of the alignment procedures recommended in some of the replys so i haven't totally given up on the Lee for .308. I have all the same lot #'s of bullets, primers, powder left and the the same brass so i'll report back with the results.
 
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