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Why couldn't a manufacturer/retailer (like Defiance/BadRock seems to be), put an MSRP of $1999 on a rifle and sell it for the same amount. Sell it wholesale for $1,500 and put a MAP of $1899 on it so Eurooptic, Cabelas, and Buds can sell it too. Then you'll have a gun that sells for 2x-3x the price of a factory R700 competing in the same division.
It's not just a PRS issue:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180206-gaming-your-glock-uspsa-production-legal-mods-list/
The USPSA production arms race is interesting, I shoot CZ's and as long as it's a factory part I can swap it out, including triggers. The only thing I'm not allowed to do it's a bull barrel/bushing conversion. The Shadow with bushings was banned even though CZ produced the required amount to blasters to make it a "production" gun.
Why couldn't a manufacturer/retailer (like Defiance/BadRock seems to be), put an MSRP of $1999 on a rifle and sell it for the same amount. Sell it wholesale for $1,500 and put a MAP of $1899 on it so Eurooptic, Cabelas, and Buds can sell it too. Then you'll have a gun that sells for 2x-3x the price of a factory R700 competing in the same division.
It's not just a PRS issue:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180206-gaming-your-glock-uspsa-production-legal-mods-list/
That exact business model is why SWFA scopes are such an excellent value. Now if we could just get them to update the reticle offerings and some zero stops.The reason they don't is very likely the same reason I don't.
There isn't margin available in the cost model to put space in there for every dealer who can get an FFL to wet their beak. I'm sure you can all imagine how fast my emails and phones blew up when the Hancock was announced, not everyone was buying for themselves. We had to tell a lot of FFL's that there is no dealer program. Many of them were not happy about it... which solidified to me that we made the right product. Dealers were seeing it as the hot thing that they had to sell. That means that more than just PVA's management could tell it was going to be a good thing for the industry.
At the end of the day the customer pays the same price but it allows PVA to put a better product on the market for the same end cost because there is no dealer or distributor layer to pay for.
And keep in mind, for all the discussions about price tags these complete rifles carry 11% excise tax. That is one of the biggest (#3 overall) cost out of pocket in the Hancock, just barely more expensive than the barrel blank. About 2 years ago when Ranier was trying to launch a $4000 production rifle folks on here were complaining about adding up all the parts, putting on $400 for a gunsmith to assemble it and then coming up with a cost that was $400 less than what Ranier was selling it for.
Well, at 11% tax the cost differential was pretty much covered right there.
For public record, before any conspiracy theories are started... I am glad to see this new offering. It validates what I have said for several years and what we pretty much gambled the company on this past year.
We chose the Remington style bolt nose on the Tenacity so that it will work with pre-fit barrels and it’s the type of breech most smiths are accustomed to. Keeping it simple. We chose the coned breech CRF for the BadRock Rifles. It’s also a great system that works very well.I’m sure that’s part of the hook. Get a tenacity with controlled round feed......but only if you buy our rifle.
Well said Terry. Our goal is to introduce more people into high quality precision Rifles. Glen has wanted to build a sub $2k precision Rifle since before the PRS existed. It bridges the gap between the guns at the store and high quality Custom Rifles. It will get more people involved in precision shooting and expand the market for Custom Rifles.How does this new introduction to that niche suddenly change any of the dynamics that already existed a month ago in a negative manner?
At least one offering already offered targets Production Class based with a barely sub $2K price and component specs aimed at competition.
I disagree with the premise that any of this will cause human behavior and buying habits to suddenly convulse into a shrinkage that will collapse the US economy much less the PRS and other precision rifle based sports.
Certain people are always going to be less committed than others to any pursuit. Those people are always keeping their eyes out for a convenient excuse to bail when their goal becomes dependent on practice and dedication that can't be ordered on-line. I would think more offerings aimed at the Production Division would take less excuses off the table rather than cause more to leave the sport or other divisions.
Preemptively deciding on the virtues of a new competitive offering based on certain human behavioral traits (traits which many think are not good ones to have) is not fair to the offering. This is a capitalistic system where a new widget or rifle will live or die based on demand and the makers ability to deliver value to the buyer.
PRS as an entity should be happy to have more participants regardless of what class they shoot in. Everything else will adjust and thrive just like it has done for quite some time.
./
The reason they don't is very likely the same reason I don't.
There isn't margin available in the cost model to put space in there for every dealer who can get an FFL to wet their beak. I'm sure you can all imagine how fast my emails and phones blew up when the Hancock was announced, not everyone was buying for themselves. We had to tell a lot of FFL's that there is no dealer program. Many of them were not happy about it... which solidified to me that we made the right product. Dealers were seeing it as the hot thing that they had to sell. That means that more than just PVA's management could tell it was going to be a good thing for the industry.
At the end of the day the customer pays the same price but it allows PVA to put a better product on the market for the same end cost because there is no dealer or distributor layer to pay for.
And keep in mind, for all the discussions about price tags these complete rifles carry 11% excise tax. That is one of the biggest (#3 overall) cost out of pocket in the Hancock, just barely more expensive than the barrel blank. About 2 years ago when Ranier was trying to launch a $4000 production rifle folks on here were complaining about adding up all the parts, putting on $400 for a gunsmith to assemble it and then coming up with a cost that was $400 less than what Ranier was selling it for.
Well, at 11% tax the cost differential was pretty much covered right there.
For public record, before any conspiracy theories are started... I am glad to see this new offering. It validates what I have said for several years and what we pretty much gambled the company on this past year.
As far as kicking out the middleman, the middleman in the firearms world is a very important component to the ecosystem. Without the middleman, you couldn't have guns as we know them. No one would be there to do the transfer. But there's more to it than just the transfer, a good gun store can help breed better shooters. Isn't it nice to be able to handle that gun/optic you've been looking at online or in a magazine? They can help newer shooters not make mistakes they might've made shopping at Wal-Mart and to a lesser extent Cabela's/BPS, maybe turning that new shooter into a life-long shooter? A well stocked gun store can bail you out of jam when you run out of components and have a match coming up that weekend. That same local gun store if you're a regular can keep an eye out for that used gun you've had your eye on for your collection. There's a friendly person to go and see when something goes wrong, a gunsmith to lay hands on when things go really wrong. It's supporting local businesses in your community. But maybe you don't have a gun store like that in your community?
I’ll preface again that I think this is a great product.
For conversation sake, most club matches (that I see) typically use PRS rules. So, this is where I see production class being a good thing and remaining “ungamed.”
My logic is:
Everyone has more fun when they feel like they are winning. Most guys don’t drop 4k or so initially. They either bring a hunting rifle they already own, or they go spend around 1500 for a full setup. They go to a match, shoot however good or bad they shoot, and get to see they at least placed 3rd (or whatever) in production.
You typically don’t see better shooters in production, because the limitations typically kept it to RPR being about the best rifle that was allowed.
Typically, better shooters end up moving into better gear.
But, a lot of those eventually better shooters got “hooked” by feeling like they can compete because they saw they didn’t do too bad against people who had similar gear/budget. This shooter/s decided invest in a better rig and practice. Gets good enough he starts going to the actual PRS shoots, etc, etc.
Now, take that same guy and now with basically custom “production” guns, and he shows up only to find 10 guys who are seasoned shooters shooting production class.
The real situation is he got 11th place production because they are better shooters. However, we as humans tend to look for reasons that don’t involve us being at fault.
Before anyone jumps in with a “everyone gets a trophy in this generation,” that’s not what I’m saying at all. Golf has had handicaps forever and the reason is to keep lesser skill levels playing.
I’d be all for having skill level classes (a match series down here has it, and it seems to work well), over gear classes.
I agree with you. I shoot archery as well and it's basically golf for adults. And I can shoot side by side with a 10 year old kid and have the time of my life. However I feel like the kid at a prs match. I have 3500 in my rig hand loads and all. It's not about skill. It's about gear. At least that's how it's set up. I hate it. I'd rather shoot side by side with a guy who is similarly experienced and gawk at gear than shoot with a d-bag rich guy who may or may not have any actual talent. The rules need an overhaul if the sport wants to make it to the big time. NASCAR has a gear and $$$ problem and look what happened to them... people hate it now.
I can't really tell if this is a good or bad thing. The PRS people might not like it because it's gaming the system but it is yet another option for consumers at that price point which is nice to have.