New production class rifle

[andrewsben]

There should be no "winners" and every one gets a participation trophy.

 

[Adb1228]

Why couldn't a manufacturer/retailer (like Defiance/BadRock seems to be), put an MSRP of $1999 on a rifle and sell it for the same amount. Sell it wholesale for $1,500 and put a MAP of $1899 on it so Eurooptic, Cabelas, and Buds can sell it too. Then you'll have a gun that sells for 2x-3x the price of a factory R700 competing in the same division.

It's not just a PRS issue:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180206-gaming-your-glock-uspsa-production-legal-mods-list/

The USPSA production arms race is interesting, I shoot CZ's and as long as it's a factory part I can swap it out, including triggers. The only thing I'm not allowed to do it's a bull barrel/bushing conversion. The Shadow with bushings was banned even though CZ produced the required amount to blasters to make it a "production" gun.

 

[strat81]

The USPSA production arms race is interesting, I shoot CZ's and as long as it's a factory part I can swap it out, including triggers. The only thing I'm not allowed to do it's a bull barrel/bushing conversion. The Shadow with bushings was banned even though CZ produced the required amount to blasters to make it a "production" gun.

And then there's the issue of bone-stock CZ Shadows playing against stock Glocks and M&Ps. Because rules!

OTOH, give me the raciest race gun that ever raced and I'll still place in the bottom 25th percentile. USPSA or PRS. It's the indian, not the arrow.

 

[bohem]

Why couldn't a manufacturer/retailer (like Defiance/BadRock seems to be), put an MSRP of $1999 on a rifle and sell it for the same amount. Sell it wholesale for $1,500 and put a MAP of $1899 on it so Eurooptic, Cabelas, and Buds can sell it too. Then you'll have a gun that sells for 2x-3x the price of a factory R700 competing in the same division.

It's not just a PRS issue:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/180206-gaming-your-glock-uspsa-production-legal-mods-list/

The reason they don't is very likely the same reason I don't.
There isn't margin available in the cost model to put space in there for every dealer who can get an FFL to wet their beak. I'm sure you can all imagine how fast my emails and phones blew up when the Hancock was announced, not everyone was buying for themselves. We had to tell a lot of FFL's that there is no dealer program. Many of them were not happy about it... which solidified to me that we made the right product. Dealers were seeing it as the hot thing that they had to sell. That means that more than just PVA's management could tell it was going to be a good thing for the industry.

At the end of the day the customer pays the same price but it allows PVA to put a better product on the market for the same end cost because there is no dealer or distributor layer to pay for.

And keep in mind, for all the discussions about price tags these complete rifles carry 11% excise tax. That is one of the biggest (#3 overall) cost out of pocket in the Hancock, just barely more expensive than the barrel blank. About 2 years ago when Ranier was trying to launch a $4000 production rifle folks on here were complaining about adding up all the parts, putting on $400 for a gunsmith to assemble it and then coming up with a cost that was $400 less than what Ranier was selling it for.

Well, at 11% tax the cost differential was pretty much covered right there.



For public record, before any conspiracy theories are started... I am glad to see this new offering. It validates what I have said for several years and what we pretty much gambled the company on this past year.

 

[MarkCO]

More options are good. IMHO, if their is any "angst" or wringing of hands related to these cool new rifles coming out, it falls squarely in the lap of the PRS leadership. Free market and open competition is good. It is up to the organization to set the boundaries/playing field for their competitions.

I thought Production was good and shot my first few "official" major precision matches in that division. But the stated goals then are not even close to what it has become today. There are pros and cons of that.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@bohem
You are completely correct in your business model/plan!!!
Just think purely on the numbers real quick:
Manufacturer has MSRP of X
He sells to RSR/Sports South/ETC and they require the ability to make 25-30%
RSR/Sports South/ETC then sells to pawn shop FFL holder that is going to want to make from 10-20%

So if manufacturer removed those percentages and went direct to consumer....who wins? The CONSUMER and MANUFACTURER.
That is why we see Optics manufacturers starting to go direct to consumer also.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[lennyo3034]

I believe Kuiu uses a similar model. I have seen their stuff in retail stores or other websites ever. Just their own.

 

[b6graham]

why let someone else make the money when you can?

they brands/companies dont compete with Northface or Patagonia, or even Remington/Savage on the local level. they just cant. they're niche markets and it's hard to give up those profits and i wouldn't want them to...we end up paying more

 

[Bender]

The reason they don't is very likely the same reason I don't.
There isn't margin available in the cost model to put space in there for every dealer who can get an FFL to wet their beak. I'm sure you can all imagine how fast my emails and phones blew up when the Hancock was announced, not everyone was buying for themselves. We had to tell a lot of FFL's that there is no dealer program. Many of them were not happy about it... which solidified to me that we made the right product. Dealers were seeing it as the hot thing that they had to sell. That means that more than just PVA's management could tell it was going to be a good thing for the industry.

At the end of the day the customer pays the same price but it allows PVA to put a better product on the market for the same end cost because there is no dealer or distributor layer to pay for.

And keep in mind, for all the discussions about price tags these complete rifles carry 11% excise tax. That is one of the biggest (#3 overall) cost out of pocket in the Hancock, just barely more expensive than the barrel blank. About 2 years ago when Ranier was trying to launch a $4000 production rifle folks on here were complaining about adding up all the parts, putting on $400 for a gunsmith to assemble it and then coming up with a cost that was $400 less than what Ranier was selling it for.

Well, at 11% tax the cost differential was pretty much covered right there.



For public record, before any conspiracy theories are started... I am glad to see this new offering. It validates what I have said for several years and what we pretty much gambled the company on this past year.

That exact business model is why SWFA scopes are such an excellent value. Now if we could just get them to update the reticle offerings and some zero stops.

It’s amazing how much value you can add to a product when you cut out the middle man.

I sure love capitalism......

 

[W54/XM-388]

How about those that are whining about people having too expensive gear at matches, stop whining and go over and have fun shooting CMP matches instead.

Then you can all have the same type rifles, same ammo & you probably don't need to even bring your own, just borrow one.. Simple...

But whining about "I don't want to go to shoot a match if others are shooting equipment I can't afford" is a bit childish.
If you rock up to the line with a $1k rifle and a $1k scope, and the person next to you has a $12k setup, you still might have a good chance to beat them if you know how to run your rig well. If you don't, we'll don't worry if you come in last, use it to learn what you need to do to get better.

I had great fun going to a couple smaller 400 yard benchrest style matches (using decreasing size clay pigeons) where I'm shooting a .308 AW prone off a bipod and everybody else is winching their custom shooting benches to the line & pulling out their special rests and such.
I still managed to come in middle of the pack (thanks to wind) and had a great time doing it. If I actually was interested in trying to win, I'd have to seriously change my equipment, but I went to shoot & see how I did & had a great time & met lots of friendly people.

 

[Mike at Defiance]

I’m sure that’s part of the hook. Get a tenacity with controlled round feed......but only if you buy our rifle.

We chose the Remington style bolt nose on the Tenacity so that it will work with pre-fit barrels and it’s the type of breech most smiths are accustomed to. Keeping it simple. We chose the coned breech CRF for the BadRock Rifles. It’s also a great system that works very well.

 

[Mike at Defiance]

How does this new introduction to that niche suddenly change any of the dynamics that already existed a month ago in a negative manner?

At least one offering already offered targets Production Class based with a barely sub $2K price and component specs aimed at competition.

I disagree with the premise that any of this will cause human behavior and buying habits to suddenly convulse into a shrinkage that will collapse the US economy much less the PRS and other precision rifle based sports.

Certain people are always going to be less committed than others to any pursuit. Those people are always keeping their eyes out for a convenient excuse to bail when their goal becomes dependent on practice and dedication that can't be ordered on-line. I would think more offerings aimed at the Production Division would take less excuses off the table rather than cause more to leave the sport or other divisions.

Preemptively deciding on the virtues of a new competitive offering based on certain human behavioral traits (traits which many think are not good ones to have) is not fair to the offering. This is a capitalistic system where a new widget or rifle will live or die based on demand and the makers ability to deliver value to the buyer.

PRS as an entity should be happy to have more participants regardless of what class they shoot in. Everything else will adjust and thrive just like it has done for quite some time.

./

Well said Terry. Our goal is to introduce more people into high quality precision Rifles. Glen has wanted to build a sub $2k precision Rifle since before the PRS existed. It bridges the gap between the guns at the store and high quality Custom Rifles. It will get more people involved in precision shooting and expand the market for Custom Rifles.

 

[Bulldog Firearms]

The reason they don't is very likely the same reason I don't.
There isn't margin available in the cost model to put space in there for every dealer who can get an FFL to wet their beak. I'm sure you can all imagine how fast my emails and phones blew up when the Hancock was announced, not everyone was buying for themselves. We had to tell a lot of FFL's that there is no dealer program. Many of them were not happy about it... which solidified to me that we made the right product. Dealers were seeing it as the hot thing that they had to sell. That means that more than just PVA's management could tell it was going to be a good thing for the industry.

At the end of the day the customer pays the same price but it allows PVA to put a better product on the market for the same end cost because there is no dealer or distributor layer to pay for.

And keep in mind, for all the discussions about price tags these complete rifles carry 11% excise tax. That is one of the biggest (#3 overall) cost out of pocket in the Hancock, just barely more expensive than the barrel blank. About 2 years ago when Ranier was trying to launch a $4000 production rifle folks on here were complaining about adding up all the parts, putting on $400 for a gunsmith to assemble it and then coming up with a cost that was $400 less than what Ranier was selling it for.

Well, at 11% tax the cost differential was pretty much covered right there.



For public record, before any conspiracy theories are started... I am glad to see this new offering. It validates what I have said for several years and what we pretty much gambled the company on this past year.

Sometimes you just can't make things work without better economies of scale. 'Serve the masses, dine with the classes. Serve the classes, dine with the masses.' However I never got into the gun business expecting to get rich, I don't think bohem did either.

There is way too much cool factor in firearms that every Joe wants to be involved in it and thus drives down the margins. Now, pumping septic systems/septic repair on the other hand, there isn't anything cool about that, but when yours screws up, you'll basically write a blank check to make it go away.

As far as kicking out the middleman, the middleman in the firearms world is a very important component to the ecosystem. Without the middleman, you couldn't have guns as we know them. No one would be there to do the transfer. But there's more to it than just the transfer, a good gun store can help breed better shooters. Isn't it nice to be able to handle that gun/optic you've been looking at online or in a magazine? They can help newer shooters not make mistakes they might've made shopping at Wal-Mart and to a lesser extent Cabela's/BPS, maybe turning that new shooter into a life-long shooter? A well stocked gun store can bail you out of jam when you run out of components and have a match coming up that weekend. That same local gun store if you're a regular can keep an eye out for that used gun you've had your eye on for your collection. There's a friendly person to go and see when something goes wrong, a gunsmith to lay hands on when things go really wrong. It's supporting local businesses in your community. But maybe you don't have a gun store like that in your community?

 

[W54/XM-388]

As far as kicking out the middleman, the middleman in the firearms world is a very important component to the ecosystem. Without the middleman, you couldn't have guns as we know them. No one would be there to do the transfer. But there's more to it than just the transfer, a good gun store can help breed better shooters. Isn't it nice to be able to handle that gun/optic you've been looking at online or in a magazine? They can help newer shooters not make mistakes they might've made shopping at Wal-Mart and to a lesser extent Cabela's/BPS, maybe turning that new shooter into a life-long shooter? A well stocked gun store can bail you out of jam when you run out of components and have a match coming up that weekend. That same local gun store if you're a regular can keep an eye out for that used gun you've had your eye on for your collection. There's a friendly person to go and see when something goes wrong, a gunsmith to lay hands on when things go really wrong. It's supporting local businesses in your community. But maybe you don't have a gun store like that in your community?

I have a really good local gun store I go to and I try to do as much of my buying there as I can, except for stuff they don't carry.
Buying, selling, researching, chatting, they do it all and it's like a mini theme park visit every time I go.

 

[Castle13]

I’ll preface again that I think this is a great product.

For conversation sake, most club matches (that I see) typically use PRS rules. So, this is where I see production class being a good thing and remaining “ungamed.”

My logic is:

Everyone has more fun when they feel like they are winning. Most guys don’t drop 4k or so initially. They either bring a hunting rifle they already own, or they go spend around 1500 for a full setup. They go to a match, shoot however good or bad they shoot, and get to see they at least placed 3rd (or whatever) in production.

You typically don’t see better shooters in production, because the limitations typically kept it to RPR being about the best rifle that was allowed.

Typically, better shooters end up moving into better gear.

But, a lot of those eventually better shooters got “hooked” by feeling like they can compete because they saw they didn’t do too bad against people who had similar gear/budget. This shooter/s decided invest in a better rig and practice. Gets good enough he starts going to the actual PRS shoots, etc, etc.

Now, take that same guy and now with basically custom “production” guns, and he shows up only to find 10 guys who are seasoned shooters shooting production class.

The real situation is he got 11th place production because they are better shooters. However, we as humans tend to look for reasons that don’t involve us being at fault.


Before anyone jumps in with a “everyone gets a trophy in this generation,” that’s not what I’m saying at all. Golf has had handicaps forever and the reason is to keep lesser skill levels playing.

I’d be all for having skill level classes (a match series down here has it, and it seems to work well), over gear classes.

I agree with you. I shoot archery as well and it's basically golf for adults. And I can shoot side by side with a 10 year old kid and have the time of my life. However I feel like the kid at a prs match. I have 3500 in my rig hand loads and all. It's not about skill. It's about gear. At least that's how it's set up. I hate it. I'd rather shoot side by side with a guy who is similarly experienced and gawk at gear than shoot with a d-bag rich guy who may or may not have any actual talent. The rules need an overhaul if the sport wants to make it to the big time. NASCAR has a gear and $$$ problem and look what happened to them... people hate it now.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree with you. I shoot archery as well and it's basically golf for adults. And I can shoot side by side with a 10 year old kid and have the time of my life. However I feel like the kid at a prs match. I have 3500 in my rig hand loads and all. It's not about skill. It's about gear. At least that's how it's set up. I hate it. I'd rather shoot side by side with a guy who is similarly experienced and gawk at gear than shoot with a d-bag rich guy who may or may not have any actual talent. The rules need an overhaul if the sport wants to make it to the big time. NASCAR has a gear and $$$ problem and look what happened to them... people hate it now.

I have changed my opinion a bit in the last couple weeks/months.

Except in rare circumstances, most stages are cleanable without a ton of gear or an extremely (over 3-4k) expensive rifle.

So, if the stage is cleanable with minimal gear, unless you are cleaning all the stages and getting beat on timed tiebreakers, you can’t really blame their better gear.

This game is more of a competition with yourself in which we compare it to one another at the very end.

If you make sure to hit every shot possible, you will find yourself winning or placing very high and you don’t have to think about what other people are using or doing.



My opinion about production class and tactical class is about the same as it’s always been. But those classes don’t have enough participants to worry too much with at this time.




Can you point to many shots/stages that you missed that you would have cleaned if you had another piece of gear or a more expensive rifle?

If I’m being honest with myself, I can’t think of any. So, is it my fault that I missed? I think so.

 

[snackattack2]

I can't really tell if this is a good or bad thing. The PRS people might not like it because it's gaming the system but it is yet another option for consumers at that price point which is nice to have.

The thing is that there already are ways to game the system. Classes don't really prevent that from happening. Plus I feel like PRS people have been shooting long enough to know that it's going to be way less about the rifle than it's going to be about the shooter. Making the right wind call at the right time gets way more wins than sneaking in essentially a custom rifle into production class.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

At the end of the day its still the Indian behind the arrow, regardless of class.